If $G/left(mathbbZ/nmathbbZright)$ is residually finite and $left(mathbbZ/nmathbbZright)leq Z(G)$, then $G$ is residually finite

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Let $G$ group and $left(mathbbZ/nmathbbZright)cong Hleq Z(G)$ a subgroup of the center of $G$ isomorphic to the integers modulo $n$. Is it true that if $G/H$ is residually finite, then $G$ is residually finite? (def: $G$ is residually finite if for every $gin Gbackslashe$ there exists $gnotin Ntriangleleft G$). It makes a lot of sense, but I couldn't prove it or find an counterexample. Any help is appreciated.







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    An infinite extraspecial group, i.e. the central product of infinitely many nonabelian groups of order $p^3$ with $p$ prime is a counterexample.
    – Derek Holt
    Aug 20 at 7:12














up vote
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down vote

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Let $G$ group and $left(mathbbZ/nmathbbZright)cong Hleq Z(G)$ a subgroup of the center of $G$ isomorphic to the integers modulo $n$. Is it true that if $G/H$ is residually finite, then $G$ is residually finite? (def: $G$ is residually finite if for every $gin Gbackslashe$ there exists $gnotin Ntriangleleft G$). It makes a lot of sense, but I couldn't prove it or find an counterexample. Any help is appreciated.







share|cite|improve this question
















  • 3




    An infinite extraspecial group, i.e. the central product of infinitely many nonabelian groups of order $p^3$ with $p$ prime is a counterexample.
    – Derek Holt
    Aug 20 at 7:12












up vote
4
down vote

favorite
1









up vote
4
down vote

favorite
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1





Let $G$ group and $left(mathbbZ/nmathbbZright)cong Hleq Z(G)$ a subgroup of the center of $G$ isomorphic to the integers modulo $n$. Is it true that if $G/H$ is residually finite, then $G$ is residually finite? (def: $G$ is residually finite if for every $gin Gbackslashe$ there exists $gnotin Ntriangleleft G$). It makes a lot of sense, but I couldn't prove it or find an counterexample. Any help is appreciated.







share|cite|improve this question












Let $G$ group and $left(mathbbZ/nmathbbZright)cong Hleq Z(G)$ a subgroup of the center of $G$ isomorphic to the integers modulo $n$. Is it true that if $G/H$ is residually finite, then $G$ is residually finite? (def: $G$ is residually finite if for every $gin Gbackslashe$ there exists $gnotin Ntriangleleft G$). It makes a lot of sense, but I couldn't prove it or find an counterexample. Any help is appreciated.









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asked Aug 20 at 5:36









Veridian Dynamics

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  • 3




    An infinite extraspecial group, i.e. the central product of infinitely many nonabelian groups of order $p^3$ with $p$ prime is a counterexample.
    – Derek Holt
    Aug 20 at 7:12












  • 3




    An infinite extraspecial group, i.e. the central product of infinitely many nonabelian groups of order $p^3$ with $p$ prime is a counterexample.
    – Derek Holt
    Aug 20 at 7:12







3




3




An infinite extraspecial group, i.e. the central product of infinitely many nonabelian groups of order $p^3$ with $p$ prime is a counterexample.
– Derek Holt
Aug 20 at 7:12




An infinite extraspecial group, i.e. the central product of infinitely many nonabelian groups of order $p^3$ with $p$ prime is a counterexample.
– Derek Holt
Aug 20 at 7:12










2 Answers
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I should make my comment into an answer.



Let $p$ be a prime and let $X = x_i,y_i : i in mathbb Z cup z$, and $$R = x_i^p,y_i^p,[x_i,y_i]z^-p:i in mathbb Z cup [x_i,x_j],[y_i,y_j]:i,j in mathbb Z cup [x_i,y_j]:i,j in mathbb Z, i ne j,$$
and let $G$ be the group defined by the presentation $langle X mid R rangle$.
So $G$ is the central product of countably infinitely many copies of a nonabelian group of order $p^3$.



Then it is not hard to see that any subgroup of $G$ of finite index must contain $z$, but $G/langle z rangle$ is elementary abelian and is residually finite.



I think you can get a finitely generated example $H = langle t rangle$ by adjoining a new generator $t$ of infinite order together with the relations $x_i^t = x_i+1$, $y_i^t = y_i+1$ for all $i$. Then we still have $z in Z(H)$, $H/langle z rangle$ is residually finite, but $H$ is not.






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    There's also an example — which is most likely folklore, but explicitly written down by Deligne.



    Claim. Any central extension $Bbb Z/k to widetildeSp(2n, Bbb Z) to Sp(2n, Bbb Z)$ corresponding to $k$-sheeted cover of $Sp(2n, Bbb R)$ except for $k = 2$ is not rFin.



    This example is finitely presented, because it is central extension of arithmetic group by cyclic — arithmetic groups are f. p. and being f. p. is preserved by extensions.



    (P. Deligne, Extensions centrales non résiduellement finies de groupes arithmétiques, 1978)






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      2 Answers
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      active

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      2 Answers
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      active

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      active

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      active

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      up vote
      4
      down vote



      accepted










      I should make my comment into an answer.



      Let $p$ be a prime and let $X = x_i,y_i : i in mathbb Z cup z$, and $$R = x_i^p,y_i^p,[x_i,y_i]z^-p:i in mathbb Z cup [x_i,x_j],[y_i,y_j]:i,j in mathbb Z cup [x_i,y_j]:i,j in mathbb Z, i ne j,$$
      and let $G$ be the group defined by the presentation $langle X mid R rangle$.
      So $G$ is the central product of countably infinitely many copies of a nonabelian group of order $p^3$.



      Then it is not hard to see that any subgroup of $G$ of finite index must contain $z$, but $G/langle z rangle$ is elementary abelian and is residually finite.



      I think you can get a finitely generated example $H = langle t rangle$ by adjoining a new generator $t$ of infinite order together with the relations $x_i^t = x_i+1$, $y_i^t = y_i+1$ for all $i$. Then we still have $z in Z(H)$, $H/langle z rangle$ is residually finite, but $H$ is not.






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        up vote
        4
        down vote



        accepted










        I should make my comment into an answer.



        Let $p$ be a prime and let $X = x_i,y_i : i in mathbb Z cup z$, and $$R = x_i^p,y_i^p,[x_i,y_i]z^-p:i in mathbb Z cup [x_i,x_j],[y_i,y_j]:i,j in mathbb Z cup [x_i,y_j]:i,j in mathbb Z, i ne j,$$
        and let $G$ be the group defined by the presentation $langle X mid R rangle$.
        So $G$ is the central product of countably infinitely many copies of a nonabelian group of order $p^3$.



        Then it is not hard to see that any subgroup of $G$ of finite index must contain $z$, but $G/langle z rangle$ is elementary abelian and is residually finite.



        I think you can get a finitely generated example $H = langle t rangle$ by adjoining a new generator $t$ of infinite order together with the relations $x_i^t = x_i+1$, $y_i^t = y_i+1$ for all $i$. Then we still have $z in Z(H)$, $H/langle z rangle$ is residually finite, but $H$ is not.






        share|cite|improve this answer






















          up vote
          4
          down vote



          accepted







          up vote
          4
          down vote



          accepted






          I should make my comment into an answer.



          Let $p$ be a prime and let $X = x_i,y_i : i in mathbb Z cup z$, and $$R = x_i^p,y_i^p,[x_i,y_i]z^-p:i in mathbb Z cup [x_i,x_j],[y_i,y_j]:i,j in mathbb Z cup [x_i,y_j]:i,j in mathbb Z, i ne j,$$
          and let $G$ be the group defined by the presentation $langle X mid R rangle$.
          So $G$ is the central product of countably infinitely many copies of a nonabelian group of order $p^3$.



          Then it is not hard to see that any subgroup of $G$ of finite index must contain $z$, but $G/langle z rangle$ is elementary abelian and is residually finite.



          I think you can get a finitely generated example $H = langle t rangle$ by adjoining a new generator $t$ of infinite order together with the relations $x_i^t = x_i+1$, $y_i^t = y_i+1$ for all $i$. Then we still have $z in Z(H)$, $H/langle z rangle$ is residually finite, but $H$ is not.






          share|cite|improve this answer












          I should make my comment into an answer.



          Let $p$ be a prime and let $X = x_i,y_i : i in mathbb Z cup z$, and $$R = x_i^p,y_i^p,[x_i,y_i]z^-p:i in mathbb Z cup [x_i,x_j],[y_i,y_j]:i,j in mathbb Z cup [x_i,y_j]:i,j in mathbb Z, i ne j,$$
          and let $G$ be the group defined by the presentation $langle X mid R rangle$.
          So $G$ is the central product of countably infinitely many copies of a nonabelian group of order $p^3$.



          Then it is not hard to see that any subgroup of $G$ of finite index must contain $z$, but $G/langle z rangle$ is elementary abelian and is residually finite.



          I think you can get a finitely generated example $H = langle t rangle$ by adjoining a new generator $t$ of infinite order together with the relations $x_i^t = x_i+1$, $y_i^t = y_i+1$ for all $i$. Then we still have $z in Z(H)$, $H/langle z rangle$ is residually finite, but $H$ is not.







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          answered Aug 20 at 8:36









          Derek Holt

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          50.1k53366




















              up vote
              3
              down vote













              There's also an example — which is most likely folklore, but explicitly written down by Deligne.



              Claim. Any central extension $Bbb Z/k to widetildeSp(2n, Bbb Z) to Sp(2n, Bbb Z)$ corresponding to $k$-sheeted cover of $Sp(2n, Bbb R)$ except for $k = 2$ is not rFin.



              This example is finitely presented, because it is central extension of arithmetic group by cyclic — arithmetic groups are f. p. and being f. p. is preserved by extensions.



              (P. Deligne, Extensions centrales non résiduellement finies de groupes arithmétiques, 1978)






              share|cite|improve this answer


























                up vote
                3
                down vote













                There's also an example — which is most likely folklore, but explicitly written down by Deligne.



                Claim. Any central extension $Bbb Z/k to widetildeSp(2n, Bbb Z) to Sp(2n, Bbb Z)$ corresponding to $k$-sheeted cover of $Sp(2n, Bbb R)$ except for $k = 2$ is not rFin.



                This example is finitely presented, because it is central extension of arithmetic group by cyclic — arithmetic groups are f. p. and being f. p. is preserved by extensions.



                (P. Deligne, Extensions centrales non résiduellement finies de groupes arithmétiques, 1978)






                share|cite|improve this answer
























                  up vote
                  3
                  down vote










                  up vote
                  3
                  down vote









                  There's also an example — which is most likely folklore, but explicitly written down by Deligne.



                  Claim. Any central extension $Bbb Z/k to widetildeSp(2n, Bbb Z) to Sp(2n, Bbb Z)$ corresponding to $k$-sheeted cover of $Sp(2n, Bbb R)$ except for $k = 2$ is not rFin.



                  This example is finitely presented, because it is central extension of arithmetic group by cyclic — arithmetic groups are f. p. and being f. p. is preserved by extensions.



                  (P. Deligne, Extensions centrales non résiduellement finies de groupes arithmétiques, 1978)






                  share|cite|improve this answer














                  There's also an example — which is most likely folklore, but explicitly written down by Deligne.



                  Claim. Any central extension $Bbb Z/k to widetildeSp(2n, Bbb Z) to Sp(2n, Bbb Z)$ corresponding to $k$-sheeted cover of $Sp(2n, Bbb R)$ except for $k = 2$ is not rFin.



                  This example is finitely presented, because it is central extension of arithmetic group by cyclic — arithmetic groups are f. p. and being f. p. is preserved by extensions.



                  (P. Deligne, Extensions centrales non résiduellement finies de groupes arithmétiques, 1978)







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                  edited Aug 21 at 20:46

























                  answered Aug 20 at 11:48









                  xsnl

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