It seems like I found a syllogism which is valid despite having 2 negative premises. Is there anything wrong with my reasoning?

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I tried to disprove rule "A valid syllogism must have at the least one positive premise" and shockingly it looks like I succeeded. Even more, the syllogism which I found violates other rules too, namely it has five terms ("non-living thing" and "non-mortal" make it five terms) and has positive conclusion despite having negative premise.



Let's take this example:



All humans are living things.
All livings things are mortal.
Thus all humans are mortal.


It seems valid for me. Now let's transform its premises. "All humans are living things." is equivalent to "No human is a non-living thing." and "All livings things are mortal." means the same as "No living thing is non-mortal.". If we applied transformations what doesn't change the meaning of our premises, then it's natural to expect that validity of the whole
syllogism will stay the same (so if it was invalid it will stay invalid and if it was valid it'll stay valid).



Now we have VALID syllogism:



No human is a non-living thing.
No living thing is non-mortal.
Thus all humans are mortal.


Let's double check it with a diagram. Just to be sure.



Venn diagram



Here we have three circles, H means "humans", LT stands for "living things" and M contains everything that is mortal. I used gray color to indicate empty intersections.



Now back to premises. "No human is a non-living thing." means that intersection between set of humans and set of non-living things is empty. In other words, areas #1 and #5 are empty because together they form intersection between humans and non-living things. "No living thing is non-mortal." means that intersection between living things and non-mortals is empty, thus making areas #2 and #4 empty.



And now, the conclusion. "Thus all humans are mortal." seems legit considering that the only area where the set of all humans is still white is #7.







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  • I never heard of any rule saying "A valid syllogism must have at the least one positive premise". Can you cite your source?
    – 5xum
    Aug 20 at 7:52










  • For example, you can find this rule (it's number 4) on this webpage: markmcintire.com/phil/sixrules.html
    – user161005
    Aug 20 at 7:54






  • 1




    Rule 4 in your link is a very very poor explanation of the fallacy of exclusive premises, which is much better explained here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_exclusive_premises. Reducing this fallacy to saying "any syllogism with two negative premises is wrong" is a horrible example of oversimplification.
    – 5xum
    Aug 20 at 7:58










  • @5xum How about rules number 1 (i.e. three terms only) and number 5 (negative conclusion if any premise is negative)? Shouldn't my syllogism be invalid because of them?
    – user161005
    Aug 20 at 8:13











  • In both examples, your initial premises are logically equivalent. All humans are living things = No human is a non-living thing. All livings things are mortal = No living thing is non-mortal. This would be more immediately obvious using modern predicate logic (switching quantifiers).
    – Dan Christensen
    Aug 20 at 16:43














up vote
0
down vote

favorite












I tried to disprove rule "A valid syllogism must have at the least one positive premise" and shockingly it looks like I succeeded. Even more, the syllogism which I found violates other rules too, namely it has five terms ("non-living thing" and "non-mortal" make it five terms) and has positive conclusion despite having negative premise.



Let's take this example:



All humans are living things.
All livings things are mortal.
Thus all humans are mortal.


It seems valid for me. Now let's transform its premises. "All humans are living things." is equivalent to "No human is a non-living thing." and "All livings things are mortal." means the same as "No living thing is non-mortal.". If we applied transformations what doesn't change the meaning of our premises, then it's natural to expect that validity of the whole
syllogism will stay the same (so if it was invalid it will stay invalid and if it was valid it'll stay valid).



Now we have VALID syllogism:



No human is a non-living thing.
No living thing is non-mortal.
Thus all humans are mortal.


Let's double check it with a diagram. Just to be sure.



Venn diagram



Here we have three circles, H means "humans", LT stands for "living things" and M contains everything that is mortal. I used gray color to indicate empty intersections.



Now back to premises. "No human is a non-living thing." means that intersection between set of humans and set of non-living things is empty. In other words, areas #1 and #5 are empty because together they form intersection between humans and non-living things. "No living thing is non-mortal." means that intersection between living things and non-mortals is empty, thus making areas #2 and #4 empty.



And now, the conclusion. "Thus all humans are mortal." seems legit considering that the only area where the set of all humans is still white is #7.







share|cite|improve this question






















  • I never heard of any rule saying "A valid syllogism must have at the least one positive premise". Can you cite your source?
    – 5xum
    Aug 20 at 7:52










  • For example, you can find this rule (it's number 4) on this webpage: markmcintire.com/phil/sixrules.html
    – user161005
    Aug 20 at 7:54






  • 1




    Rule 4 in your link is a very very poor explanation of the fallacy of exclusive premises, which is much better explained here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_exclusive_premises. Reducing this fallacy to saying "any syllogism with two negative premises is wrong" is a horrible example of oversimplification.
    – 5xum
    Aug 20 at 7:58










  • @5xum How about rules number 1 (i.e. three terms only) and number 5 (negative conclusion if any premise is negative)? Shouldn't my syllogism be invalid because of them?
    – user161005
    Aug 20 at 8:13











  • In both examples, your initial premises are logically equivalent. All humans are living things = No human is a non-living thing. All livings things are mortal = No living thing is non-mortal. This would be more immediately obvious using modern predicate logic (switching quantifiers).
    – Dan Christensen
    Aug 20 at 16:43












up vote
0
down vote

favorite









up vote
0
down vote

favorite











I tried to disprove rule "A valid syllogism must have at the least one positive premise" and shockingly it looks like I succeeded. Even more, the syllogism which I found violates other rules too, namely it has five terms ("non-living thing" and "non-mortal" make it five terms) and has positive conclusion despite having negative premise.



Let's take this example:



All humans are living things.
All livings things are mortal.
Thus all humans are mortal.


It seems valid for me. Now let's transform its premises. "All humans are living things." is equivalent to "No human is a non-living thing." and "All livings things are mortal." means the same as "No living thing is non-mortal.". If we applied transformations what doesn't change the meaning of our premises, then it's natural to expect that validity of the whole
syllogism will stay the same (so if it was invalid it will stay invalid and if it was valid it'll stay valid).



Now we have VALID syllogism:



No human is a non-living thing.
No living thing is non-mortal.
Thus all humans are mortal.


Let's double check it with a diagram. Just to be sure.



Venn diagram



Here we have three circles, H means "humans", LT stands for "living things" and M contains everything that is mortal. I used gray color to indicate empty intersections.



Now back to premises. "No human is a non-living thing." means that intersection between set of humans and set of non-living things is empty. In other words, areas #1 and #5 are empty because together they form intersection between humans and non-living things. "No living thing is non-mortal." means that intersection between living things and non-mortals is empty, thus making areas #2 and #4 empty.



And now, the conclusion. "Thus all humans are mortal." seems legit considering that the only area where the set of all humans is still white is #7.







share|cite|improve this question














I tried to disprove rule "A valid syllogism must have at the least one positive premise" and shockingly it looks like I succeeded. Even more, the syllogism which I found violates other rules too, namely it has five terms ("non-living thing" and "non-mortal" make it five terms) and has positive conclusion despite having negative premise.



Let's take this example:



All humans are living things.
All livings things are mortal.
Thus all humans are mortal.


It seems valid for me. Now let's transform its premises. "All humans are living things." is equivalent to "No human is a non-living thing." and "All livings things are mortal." means the same as "No living thing is non-mortal.". If we applied transformations what doesn't change the meaning of our premises, then it's natural to expect that validity of the whole
syllogism will stay the same (so if it was invalid it will stay invalid and if it was valid it'll stay valid).



Now we have VALID syllogism:



No human is a non-living thing.
No living thing is non-mortal.
Thus all humans are mortal.


Let's double check it with a diagram. Just to be sure.



Venn diagram



Here we have three circles, H means "humans", LT stands for "living things" and M contains everything that is mortal. I used gray color to indicate empty intersections.



Now back to premises. "No human is a non-living thing." means that intersection between set of humans and set of non-living things is empty. In other words, areas #1 and #5 are empty because together they form intersection between humans and non-living things. "No living thing is non-mortal." means that intersection between living things and non-mortals is empty, thus making areas #2 and #4 empty.



And now, the conclusion. "Thus all humans are mortal." seems legit considering that the only area where the set of all humans is still white is #7.









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edited Aug 23 at 16:30









Jendrik Stelzner

7,57221037




7,57221037










asked Aug 20 at 7:46









user161005

477




477











  • I never heard of any rule saying "A valid syllogism must have at the least one positive premise". Can you cite your source?
    – 5xum
    Aug 20 at 7:52










  • For example, you can find this rule (it's number 4) on this webpage: markmcintire.com/phil/sixrules.html
    – user161005
    Aug 20 at 7:54






  • 1




    Rule 4 in your link is a very very poor explanation of the fallacy of exclusive premises, which is much better explained here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_exclusive_premises. Reducing this fallacy to saying "any syllogism with two negative premises is wrong" is a horrible example of oversimplification.
    – 5xum
    Aug 20 at 7:58










  • @5xum How about rules number 1 (i.e. three terms only) and number 5 (negative conclusion if any premise is negative)? Shouldn't my syllogism be invalid because of them?
    – user161005
    Aug 20 at 8:13











  • In both examples, your initial premises are logically equivalent. All humans are living things = No human is a non-living thing. All livings things are mortal = No living thing is non-mortal. This would be more immediately obvious using modern predicate logic (switching quantifiers).
    – Dan Christensen
    Aug 20 at 16:43
















  • I never heard of any rule saying "A valid syllogism must have at the least one positive premise". Can you cite your source?
    – 5xum
    Aug 20 at 7:52










  • For example, you can find this rule (it's number 4) on this webpage: markmcintire.com/phil/sixrules.html
    – user161005
    Aug 20 at 7:54






  • 1




    Rule 4 in your link is a very very poor explanation of the fallacy of exclusive premises, which is much better explained here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_exclusive_premises. Reducing this fallacy to saying "any syllogism with two negative premises is wrong" is a horrible example of oversimplification.
    – 5xum
    Aug 20 at 7:58










  • @5xum How about rules number 1 (i.e. three terms only) and number 5 (negative conclusion if any premise is negative)? Shouldn't my syllogism be invalid because of them?
    – user161005
    Aug 20 at 8:13











  • In both examples, your initial premises are logically equivalent. All humans are living things = No human is a non-living thing. All livings things are mortal = No living thing is non-mortal. This would be more immediately obvious using modern predicate logic (switching quantifiers).
    – Dan Christensen
    Aug 20 at 16:43















I never heard of any rule saying "A valid syllogism must have at the least one positive premise". Can you cite your source?
– 5xum
Aug 20 at 7:52




I never heard of any rule saying "A valid syllogism must have at the least one positive premise". Can you cite your source?
– 5xum
Aug 20 at 7:52












For example, you can find this rule (it's number 4) on this webpage: markmcintire.com/phil/sixrules.html
– user161005
Aug 20 at 7:54




For example, you can find this rule (it's number 4) on this webpage: markmcintire.com/phil/sixrules.html
– user161005
Aug 20 at 7:54




1




1




Rule 4 in your link is a very very poor explanation of the fallacy of exclusive premises, which is much better explained here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_exclusive_premises. Reducing this fallacy to saying "any syllogism with two negative premises is wrong" is a horrible example of oversimplification.
– 5xum
Aug 20 at 7:58




Rule 4 in your link is a very very poor explanation of the fallacy of exclusive premises, which is much better explained here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_exclusive_premises. Reducing this fallacy to saying "any syllogism with two negative premises is wrong" is a horrible example of oversimplification.
– 5xum
Aug 20 at 7:58












@5xum How about rules number 1 (i.e. three terms only) and number 5 (negative conclusion if any premise is negative)? Shouldn't my syllogism be invalid because of them?
– user161005
Aug 20 at 8:13





@5xum How about rules number 1 (i.e. three terms only) and number 5 (negative conclusion if any premise is negative)? Shouldn't my syllogism be invalid because of them?
– user161005
Aug 20 at 8:13













In both examples, your initial premises are logically equivalent. All humans are living things = No human is a non-living thing. All livings things are mortal = No living thing is non-mortal. This would be more immediately obvious using modern predicate logic (switching quantifiers).
– Dan Christensen
Aug 20 at 16:43




In both examples, your initial premises are logically equivalent. All humans are living things = No human is a non-living thing. All livings things are mortal = No living thing is non-mortal. This would be more immediately obvious using modern predicate logic (switching quantifiers).
– Dan Christensen
Aug 20 at 16:43










3 Answers
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4
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The classification you link to tacitly assumes that the claims that make up a "syllogism" have a very particular form, connecting two statements of belonging to particular categories.



When you reword "All humans are living things" to "No human is not a living thing", you're moving beyond that assumption (since now one of the statements is of not belonging to the category that appears in the next premise). It should therefore not surprise you that rules designed to work for the standard form of the claims stop working.



(Indeed if one considers claims of the form "no human is not a living thing", then it appears that distinguishing between "positive" and "negative" claim stops being useful at all).




It should also be noted that mathematical logic over the last 100-150 years has definitively abandoned the idea that categorical syllogisms are a useful way to analyze and structure mathematical arguments in general. They're now seen as supporting only a narrow range of weak reasoning which doesn't come close to what one needs for actual mathematical reasoning or proofs.



Your link's high-strung claim that "for your life of ideas mastery of the 15 valid forms of standard form categorical syllogisms is indispensable" finds no support in modern logic -- I daresay only a tiny minority of working mathematicians would be able to name any of the classical syllogisms, much less reproduce the elaborate systems the ancients used to categorize them.






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  • But if the standard form is based on using concept of belonging, then why a valid syllogism can have one negative premise (i.e. statement about not belonging), instead of allowing only positive premises?
    – user161005
    Aug 20 at 9:41











  • @user161005: The "negative" premises in your categorization are of the form "no A is a B", which is still a claim about how the properties of belonging to A and belonging to B relate to each other. If you start plugging "non-A" and/or "non-B" into the classical forms, you go beyond what the categorization is created to categorize, and it should not surprise you that it breaks down.
    – Henning Makholm
    Aug 20 at 9:46











  • But "non-M" isn't something magical, it's a set too! For example, instead of "non-mortal" I could write "immortal" (after all, you can't die if you have never been alive in the first place or if you're already dead). Why should we discriminate between set M and set non-M? This can be understand as how properties of belonging to LT and non-M relate to each other.
    – user161005
    Aug 20 at 9:58











  • @user161005: But if you do that, you would have "immortal" in the second premise and "mortal" only in the conclusion, which does not fit the form of a classical syllogism either. The classical form has each of the involved sets appear in exactly two of the claims.
    – Henning Makholm
    Aug 20 at 10:01










  • And you would have a hidden assumption that two of your named sets happen to be disjoint.
    – Henning Makholm
    Aug 20 at 10:02

















up vote
1
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"No human is a non-living thing" is not an A, E, I, or O form. Henning Makholm points out in an answer that each part of the syllogism must be one of those four forms, in order for the overall argument to even have the ability to be called a "syllogism". (Another way of reaching the same conclusion, if we treat "no human is a non-living thing" as an E, is that in that case we cannot link "non-living thing" in the first premise with "living thing" in the second premise - there is no common "middle term" in the argument presented, just two E premises.).



Separately, the "two negative premises" argument in the question would not be considered a valid syllogism because the first two sentences are consistent with there being no humans and no living things, but in categorical logic "All humans are mortal" has existential import and implies "some humans are mortal".






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    Using the syntax of first-order logic, the basic form of the syllogism is:



    $(forall x (A(x) implies B(x))) land (forall x (B(x) implies C(x))) implies (forall x (A(x) implies C(x)))$



    But $forall x(A(x) implies B(x))$ can be rewritten as $nexists x(A(x) land lnot B(x))$, so the syllogism can be rewritten as



    $(nexists x(A(x) land lnot B(x))) land (nexists x(B(x) land lnot C(x))) implies (forall x (A(x) implies C(x)))$



    which is a syllogism with two negative premises.



    In your example you have "$x$ is human" as $A(x)$, "$x$ is a living thing" as $B(x)$ and "$x$ is mortal" as $C(x)$.



    So "Rule 4" is incorrect. And "Rule 1" is incorrect if $B(x)$ and $lnot B(x)$ are counted as different terms.






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      3 Answers
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      active

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      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

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      active

      oldest

      votes








      up vote
      4
      down vote













      The classification you link to tacitly assumes that the claims that make up a "syllogism" have a very particular form, connecting two statements of belonging to particular categories.



      When you reword "All humans are living things" to "No human is not a living thing", you're moving beyond that assumption (since now one of the statements is of not belonging to the category that appears in the next premise). It should therefore not surprise you that rules designed to work for the standard form of the claims stop working.



      (Indeed if one considers claims of the form "no human is not a living thing", then it appears that distinguishing between "positive" and "negative" claim stops being useful at all).




      It should also be noted that mathematical logic over the last 100-150 years has definitively abandoned the idea that categorical syllogisms are a useful way to analyze and structure mathematical arguments in general. They're now seen as supporting only a narrow range of weak reasoning which doesn't come close to what one needs for actual mathematical reasoning or proofs.



      Your link's high-strung claim that "for your life of ideas mastery of the 15 valid forms of standard form categorical syllogisms is indispensable" finds no support in modern logic -- I daresay only a tiny minority of working mathematicians would be able to name any of the classical syllogisms, much less reproduce the elaborate systems the ancients used to categorize them.






      share|cite|improve this answer






















      • But if the standard form is based on using concept of belonging, then why a valid syllogism can have one negative premise (i.e. statement about not belonging), instead of allowing only positive premises?
        – user161005
        Aug 20 at 9:41











      • @user161005: The "negative" premises in your categorization are of the form "no A is a B", which is still a claim about how the properties of belonging to A and belonging to B relate to each other. If you start plugging "non-A" and/or "non-B" into the classical forms, you go beyond what the categorization is created to categorize, and it should not surprise you that it breaks down.
        – Henning Makholm
        Aug 20 at 9:46











      • But "non-M" isn't something magical, it's a set too! For example, instead of "non-mortal" I could write "immortal" (after all, you can't die if you have never been alive in the first place or if you're already dead). Why should we discriminate between set M and set non-M? This can be understand as how properties of belonging to LT and non-M relate to each other.
        – user161005
        Aug 20 at 9:58











      • @user161005: But if you do that, you would have "immortal" in the second premise and "mortal" only in the conclusion, which does not fit the form of a classical syllogism either. The classical form has each of the involved sets appear in exactly two of the claims.
        – Henning Makholm
        Aug 20 at 10:01










      • And you would have a hidden assumption that two of your named sets happen to be disjoint.
        – Henning Makholm
        Aug 20 at 10:02














      up vote
      4
      down vote













      The classification you link to tacitly assumes that the claims that make up a "syllogism" have a very particular form, connecting two statements of belonging to particular categories.



      When you reword "All humans are living things" to "No human is not a living thing", you're moving beyond that assumption (since now one of the statements is of not belonging to the category that appears in the next premise). It should therefore not surprise you that rules designed to work for the standard form of the claims stop working.



      (Indeed if one considers claims of the form "no human is not a living thing", then it appears that distinguishing between "positive" and "negative" claim stops being useful at all).




      It should also be noted that mathematical logic over the last 100-150 years has definitively abandoned the idea that categorical syllogisms are a useful way to analyze and structure mathematical arguments in general. They're now seen as supporting only a narrow range of weak reasoning which doesn't come close to what one needs for actual mathematical reasoning or proofs.



      Your link's high-strung claim that "for your life of ideas mastery of the 15 valid forms of standard form categorical syllogisms is indispensable" finds no support in modern logic -- I daresay only a tiny minority of working mathematicians would be able to name any of the classical syllogisms, much less reproduce the elaborate systems the ancients used to categorize them.






      share|cite|improve this answer






















      • But if the standard form is based on using concept of belonging, then why a valid syllogism can have one negative premise (i.e. statement about not belonging), instead of allowing only positive premises?
        – user161005
        Aug 20 at 9:41











      • @user161005: The "negative" premises in your categorization are of the form "no A is a B", which is still a claim about how the properties of belonging to A and belonging to B relate to each other. If you start plugging "non-A" and/or "non-B" into the classical forms, you go beyond what the categorization is created to categorize, and it should not surprise you that it breaks down.
        – Henning Makholm
        Aug 20 at 9:46











      • But "non-M" isn't something magical, it's a set too! For example, instead of "non-mortal" I could write "immortal" (after all, you can't die if you have never been alive in the first place or if you're already dead). Why should we discriminate between set M and set non-M? This can be understand as how properties of belonging to LT and non-M relate to each other.
        – user161005
        Aug 20 at 9:58











      • @user161005: But if you do that, you would have "immortal" in the second premise and "mortal" only in the conclusion, which does not fit the form of a classical syllogism either. The classical form has each of the involved sets appear in exactly two of the claims.
        – Henning Makholm
        Aug 20 at 10:01










      • And you would have a hidden assumption that two of your named sets happen to be disjoint.
        – Henning Makholm
        Aug 20 at 10:02












      up vote
      4
      down vote










      up vote
      4
      down vote









      The classification you link to tacitly assumes that the claims that make up a "syllogism" have a very particular form, connecting two statements of belonging to particular categories.



      When you reword "All humans are living things" to "No human is not a living thing", you're moving beyond that assumption (since now one of the statements is of not belonging to the category that appears in the next premise). It should therefore not surprise you that rules designed to work for the standard form of the claims stop working.



      (Indeed if one considers claims of the form "no human is not a living thing", then it appears that distinguishing between "positive" and "negative" claim stops being useful at all).




      It should also be noted that mathematical logic over the last 100-150 years has definitively abandoned the idea that categorical syllogisms are a useful way to analyze and structure mathematical arguments in general. They're now seen as supporting only a narrow range of weak reasoning which doesn't come close to what one needs for actual mathematical reasoning or proofs.



      Your link's high-strung claim that "for your life of ideas mastery of the 15 valid forms of standard form categorical syllogisms is indispensable" finds no support in modern logic -- I daresay only a tiny minority of working mathematicians would be able to name any of the classical syllogisms, much less reproduce the elaborate systems the ancients used to categorize them.






      share|cite|improve this answer














      The classification you link to tacitly assumes that the claims that make up a "syllogism" have a very particular form, connecting two statements of belonging to particular categories.



      When you reword "All humans are living things" to "No human is not a living thing", you're moving beyond that assumption (since now one of the statements is of not belonging to the category that appears in the next premise). It should therefore not surprise you that rules designed to work for the standard form of the claims stop working.



      (Indeed if one considers claims of the form "no human is not a living thing", then it appears that distinguishing between "positive" and "negative" claim stops being useful at all).




      It should also be noted that mathematical logic over the last 100-150 years has definitively abandoned the idea that categorical syllogisms are a useful way to analyze and structure mathematical arguments in general. They're now seen as supporting only a narrow range of weak reasoning which doesn't come close to what one needs for actual mathematical reasoning or proofs.



      Your link's high-strung claim that "for your life of ideas mastery of the 15 valid forms of standard form categorical syllogisms is indispensable" finds no support in modern logic -- I daresay only a tiny minority of working mathematicians would be able to name any of the classical syllogisms, much less reproduce the elaborate systems the ancients used to categorize them.







      share|cite|improve this answer














      share|cite|improve this answer



      share|cite|improve this answer








      edited Aug 20 at 9:38

























      answered Aug 20 at 9:20









      Henning Makholm

      229k16294525




      229k16294525











      • But if the standard form is based on using concept of belonging, then why a valid syllogism can have one negative premise (i.e. statement about not belonging), instead of allowing only positive premises?
        – user161005
        Aug 20 at 9:41











      • @user161005: The "negative" premises in your categorization are of the form "no A is a B", which is still a claim about how the properties of belonging to A and belonging to B relate to each other. If you start plugging "non-A" and/or "non-B" into the classical forms, you go beyond what the categorization is created to categorize, and it should not surprise you that it breaks down.
        – Henning Makholm
        Aug 20 at 9:46











      • But "non-M" isn't something magical, it's a set too! For example, instead of "non-mortal" I could write "immortal" (after all, you can't die if you have never been alive in the first place or if you're already dead). Why should we discriminate between set M and set non-M? This can be understand as how properties of belonging to LT and non-M relate to each other.
        – user161005
        Aug 20 at 9:58











      • @user161005: But if you do that, you would have "immortal" in the second premise and "mortal" only in the conclusion, which does not fit the form of a classical syllogism either. The classical form has each of the involved sets appear in exactly two of the claims.
        – Henning Makholm
        Aug 20 at 10:01










      • And you would have a hidden assumption that two of your named sets happen to be disjoint.
        – Henning Makholm
        Aug 20 at 10:02
















      • But if the standard form is based on using concept of belonging, then why a valid syllogism can have one negative premise (i.e. statement about not belonging), instead of allowing only positive premises?
        – user161005
        Aug 20 at 9:41











      • @user161005: The "negative" premises in your categorization are of the form "no A is a B", which is still a claim about how the properties of belonging to A and belonging to B relate to each other. If you start plugging "non-A" and/or "non-B" into the classical forms, you go beyond what the categorization is created to categorize, and it should not surprise you that it breaks down.
        – Henning Makholm
        Aug 20 at 9:46











      • But "non-M" isn't something magical, it's a set too! For example, instead of "non-mortal" I could write "immortal" (after all, you can't die if you have never been alive in the first place or if you're already dead). Why should we discriminate between set M and set non-M? This can be understand as how properties of belonging to LT and non-M relate to each other.
        – user161005
        Aug 20 at 9:58











      • @user161005: But if you do that, you would have "immortal" in the second premise and "mortal" only in the conclusion, which does not fit the form of a classical syllogism either. The classical form has each of the involved sets appear in exactly two of the claims.
        – Henning Makholm
        Aug 20 at 10:01










      • And you would have a hidden assumption that two of your named sets happen to be disjoint.
        – Henning Makholm
        Aug 20 at 10:02















      But if the standard form is based on using concept of belonging, then why a valid syllogism can have one negative premise (i.e. statement about not belonging), instead of allowing only positive premises?
      – user161005
      Aug 20 at 9:41





      But if the standard form is based on using concept of belonging, then why a valid syllogism can have one negative premise (i.e. statement about not belonging), instead of allowing only positive premises?
      – user161005
      Aug 20 at 9:41













      @user161005: The "negative" premises in your categorization are of the form "no A is a B", which is still a claim about how the properties of belonging to A and belonging to B relate to each other. If you start plugging "non-A" and/or "non-B" into the classical forms, you go beyond what the categorization is created to categorize, and it should not surprise you that it breaks down.
      – Henning Makholm
      Aug 20 at 9:46





      @user161005: The "negative" premises in your categorization are of the form "no A is a B", which is still a claim about how the properties of belonging to A and belonging to B relate to each other. If you start plugging "non-A" and/or "non-B" into the classical forms, you go beyond what the categorization is created to categorize, and it should not surprise you that it breaks down.
      – Henning Makholm
      Aug 20 at 9:46













      But "non-M" isn't something magical, it's a set too! For example, instead of "non-mortal" I could write "immortal" (after all, you can't die if you have never been alive in the first place or if you're already dead). Why should we discriminate between set M and set non-M? This can be understand as how properties of belonging to LT and non-M relate to each other.
      – user161005
      Aug 20 at 9:58





      But "non-M" isn't something magical, it's a set too! For example, instead of "non-mortal" I could write "immortal" (after all, you can't die if you have never been alive in the first place or if you're already dead). Why should we discriminate between set M and set non-M? This can be understand as how properties of belonging to LT and non-M relate to each other.
      – user161005
      Aug 20 at 9:58













      @user161005: But if you do that, you would have "immortal" in the second premise and "mortal" only in the conclusion, which does not fit the form of a classical syllogism either. The classical form has each of the involved sets appear in exactly two of the claims.
      – Henning Makholm
      Aug 20 at 10:01




      @user161005: But if you do that, you would have "immortal" in the second premise and "mortal" only in the conclusion, which does not fit the form of a classical syllogism either. The classical form has each of the involved sets appear in exactly two of the claims.
      – Henning Makholm
      Aug 20 at 10:01












      And you would have a hidden assumption that two of your named sets happen to be disjoint.
      – Henning Makholm
      Aug 20 at 10:02




      And you would have a hidden assumption that two of your named sets happen to be disjoint.
      – Henning Makholm
      Aug 20 at 10:02










      up vote
      1
      down vote













      "No human is a non-living thing" is not an A, E, I, or O form. Henning Makholm points out in an answer that each part of the syllogism must be one of those four forms, in order for the overall argument to even have the ability to be called a "syllogism". (Another way of reaching the same conclusion, if we treat "no human is a non-living thing" as an E, is that in that case we cannot link "non-living thing" in the first premise with "living thing" in the second premise - there is no common "middle term" in the argument presented, just two E premises.).



      Separately, the "two negative premises" argument in the question would not be considered a valid syllogism because the first two sentences are consistent with there being no humans and no living things, but in categorical logic "All humans are mortal" has existential import and implies "some humans are mortal".






      share|cite|improve this answer


























        up vote
        1
        down vote













        "No human is a non-living thing" is not an A, E, I, or O form. Henning Makholm points out in an answer that each part of the syllogism must be one of those four forms, in order for the overall argument to even have the ability to be called a "syllogism". (Another way of reaching the same conclusion, if we treat "no human is a non-living thing" as an E, is that in that case we cannot link "non-living thing" in the first premise with "living thing" in the second premise - there is no common "middle term" in the argument presented, just two E premises.).



        Separately, the "two negative premises" argument in the question would not be considered a valid syllogism because the first two sentences are consistent with there being no humans and no living things, but in categorical logic "All humans are mortal" has existential import and implies "some humans are mortal".






        share|cite|improve this answer
























          up vote
          1
          down vote










          up vote
          1
          down vote









          "No human is a non-living thing" is not an A, E, I, or O form. Henning Makholm points out in an answer that each part of the syllogism must be one of those four forms, in order for the overall argument to even have the ability to be called a "syllogism". (Another way of reaching the same conclusion, if we treat "no human is a non-living thing" as an E, is that in that case we cannot link "non-living thing" in the first premise with "living thing" in the second premise - there is no common "middle term" in the argument presented, just two E premises.).



          Separately, the "two negative premises" argument in the question would not be considered a valid syllogism because the first two sentences are consistent with there being no humans and no living things, but in categorical logic "All humans are mortal" has existential import and implies "some humans are mortal".






          share|cite|improve this answer














          "No human is a non-living thing" is not an A, E, I, or O form. Henning Makholm points out in an answer that each part of the syllogism must be one of those four forms, in order for the overall argument to even have the ability to be called a "syllogism". (Another way of reaching the same conclusion, if we treat "no human is a non-living thing" as an E, is that in that case we cannot link "non-living thing" in the first premise with "living thing" in the second premise - there is no common "middle term" in the argument presented, just two E premises.).



          Separately, the "two negative premises" argument in the question would not be considered a valid syllogism because the first two sentences are consistent with there being no humans and no living things, but in categorical logic "All humans are mortal" has existential import and implies "some humans are mortal".







          share|cite|improve this answer














          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer








          edited Aug 20 at 14:28

























          answered Aug 20 at 14:22









          Carl Mummert

          64k7128237




          64k7128237




















              up vote
              0
              down vote













              Using the syntax of first-order logic, the basic form of the syllogism is:



              $(forall x (A(x) implies B(x))) land (forall x (B(x) implies C(x))) implies (forall x (A(x) implies C(x)))$



              But $forall x(A(x) implies B(x))$ can be rewritten as $nexists x(A(x) land lnot B(x))$, so the syllogism can be rewritten as



              $(nexists x(A(x) land lnot B(x))) land (nexists x(B(x) land lnot C(x))) implies (forall x (A(x) implies C(x)))$



              which is a syllogism with two negative premises.



              In your example you have "$x$ is human" as $A(x)$, "$x$ is a living thing" as $B(x)$ and "$x$ is mortal" as $C(x)$.



              So "Rule 4" is incorrect. And "Rule 1" is incorrect if $B(x)$ and $lnot B(x)$ are counted as different terms.






              share|cite|improve this answer
























                up vote
                0
                down vote













                Using the syntax of first-order logic, the basic form of the syllogism is:



                $(forall x (A(x) implies B(x))) land (forall x (B(x) implies C(x))) implies (forall x (A(x) implies C(x)))$



                But $forall x(A(x) implies B(x))$ can be rewritten as $nexists x(A(x) land lnot B(x))$, so the syllogism can be rewritten as



                $(nexists x(A(x) land lnot B(x))) land (nexists x(B(x) land lnot C(x))) implies (forall x (A(x) implies C(x)))$



                which is a syllogism with two negative premises.



                In your example you have "$x$ is human" as $A(x)$, "$x$ is a living thing" as $B(x)$ and "$x$ is mortal" as $C(x)$.



                So "Rule 4" is incorrect. And "Rule 1" is incorrect if $B(x)$ and $lnot B(x)$ are counted as different terms.






                share|cite|improve this answer






















                  up vote
                  0
                  down vote










                  up vote
                  0
                  down vote









                  Using the syntax of first-order logic, the basic form of the syllogism is:



                  $(forall x (A(x) implies B(x))) land (forall x (B(x) implies C(x))) implies (forall x (A(x) implies C(x)))$



                  But $forall x(A(x) implies B(x))$ can be rewritten as $nexists x(A(x) land lnot B(x))$, so the syllogism can be rewritten as



                  $(nexists x(A(x) land lnot B(x))) land (nexists x(B(x) land lnot C(x))) implies (forall x (A(x) implies C(x)))$



                  which is a syllogism with two negative premises.



                  In your example you have "$x$ is human" as $A(x)$, "$x$ is a living thing" as $B(x)$ and "$x$ is mortal" as $C(x)$.



                  So "Rule 4" is incorrect. And "Rule 1" is incorrect if $B(x)$ and $lnot B(x)$ are counted as different terms.






                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  Using the syntax of first-order logic, the basic form of the syllogism is:



                  $(forall x (A(x) implies B(x))) land (forall x (B(x) implies C(x))) implies (forall x (A(x) implies C(x)))$



                  But $forall x(A(x) implies B(x))$ can be rewritten as $nexists x(A(x) land lnot B(x))$, so the syllogism can be rewritten as



                  $(nexists x(A(x) land lnot B(x))) land (nexists x(B(x) land lnot C(x))) implies (forall x (A(x) implies C(x)))$



                  which is a syllogism with two negative premises.



                  In your example you have "$x$ is human" as $A(x)$, "$x$ is a living thing" as $B(x)$ and "$x$ is mortal" as $C(x)$.



                  So "Rule 4" is incorrect. And "Rule 1" is incorrect if $B(x)$ and $lnot B(x)$ are counted as different terms.







                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer










                  answered Aug 20 at 9:10









                  gandalf61

                  5,956522




                  5,956522






















                       

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