Can someone who has been Feebleminded have their Int and Cha scores changed via Polymorph?

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8
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favorite












I'm running a campaign at the moment and one of the characters got feeblemind-ed.



If another character used polymorph to change them into something with higher Intelligence and Charisma, would this work?







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  • 1




    @V2Blast Spell names in 5e aren't proper nouns, so they shouldn't be capitalized in the question.
    – Marq
    Aug 20 at 10:11
















up vote
8
down vote

favorite












I'm running a campaign at the moment and one of the characters got feeblemind-ed.



If another character used polymorph to change them into something with higher Intelligence and Charisma, would this work?







share|improve this question


















  • 1




    @V2Blast Spell names in 5e aren't proper nouns, so they shouldn't be capitalized in the question.
    – Marq
    Aug 20 at 10:11












up vote
8
down vote

favorite









up vote
8
down vote

favorite











I'm running a campaign at the moment and one of the characters got feeblemind-ed.



If another character used polymorph to change them into something with higher Intelligence and Charisma, would this work?







share|improve this question














I'm running a campaign at the moment and one of the characters got feeblemind-ed.



If another character used polymorph to change them into something with higher Intelligence and Charisma, would this work?









share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited Aug 20 at 9:20









V2Blast

13.2k23185




13.2k23185










asked Aug 20 at 7:38









craig grant

434




434







  • 1




    @V2Blast Spell names in 5e aren't proper nouns, so they shouldn't be capitalized in the question.
    – Marq
    Aug 20 at 10:11












  • 1




    @V2Blast Spell names in 5e aren't proper nouns, so they shouldn't be capitalized in the question.
    – Marq
    Aug 20 at 10:11







1




1




@V2Blast Spell names in 5e aren't proper nouns, so they shouldn't be capitalized in the question.
– Marq
Aug 20 at 10:11




@V2Blast Spell names in 5e aren't proper nouns, so they shouldn't be capitalized in the question.
– Marq
Aug 20 at 10:11










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
12
down vote



accepted










Yes



Assuming you are talking about the polymorph spell (other spells may vary but most will actually have the same effect).



The spell states:




The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are
replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its
alignment and personality.




So if the target is polymorphed into something with higher mental ability scores then yes - they may end up smarter, wiser and/or more charismatic! At least until polymorph ends.



Note:



Some argue that this would not work because Feeblemind, being a higher-level spell, would override a standard Polymorph.



However, as Mindwin points out in his own answer, the rules about overlapping spell durations (which states only the most potent effect applies) would not apply here because Feeblemind is an instantaneous spell. Its effects may last a long time, but the actual spell itself is instant. Hence even a standard level casting of polymorph would temporarily override those effects.






share|improve this answer






















  • Could you polymorph a person into itself to "cure" feeblemind, then? (If I need to post a separate question, go ahead and tell me)
    – Berry M.
    Aug 20 at 9:32










  • Probably a separate question, though I would say that the Polymorph spell is restrictive into what you can change into ("a beast whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target's challenge rating or level"). Higher level spells may be less restrictive
    – PJRZ
    Aug 20 at 9:47










  • The ability score isn't the creature's own during the duration of the Feeblemind. It is the affect of a spell. I don't think this would be intended, although JC has made some really silly rulings in the past.
    – Slagmoth
    Aug 20 at 11:55










  • @berrym. only the species. You cannot transform a person into Obama's pet dog for example, just into a 'dog'. Even if it could transform Galadriel into an elf, it would be a generic elf maiden, not the queen of Lorien.
    – Mindwin
    Aug 20 at 13:28










  • Yeah, the beast-only part of Polymorph slipped my mind for a moment. True polymorph would indeed allow them to be transformed into generic-elf-female-423.
    – Berry M.
    Aug 20 at 13:30

















up vote
3
down vote













Yes



Feeblemind is a instantaneous spell with a lasting effect that grants a save to remove.




On a failed save, the creature's Intelligence and Charisma scores become 1. [...]



At the end of every 30 days, the creature can repeat its saving throw against this spell. If it succeeds on its saving throw, the spell ends.




Instantaneous spells do their effect then end. Feeblemind won't keep a check on the INT and CHA scores to set them to 1 every turn. It sets those scores once, and then it is done. Save every 30 days to revert back.



Given this characteristic of instantaneous spells (they don't linger as a spell effect), anything that modifies either INT or CHA scores later will have their effect. Including polymorph. The save every 30 days would still be rolled.






share|improve this answer



























    up vote
    2
    down vote













    No.



    I would say that the 8th level Feeblemind would override the 4th level Polymorph.




    A spell’s level is a general indicator of how powerful it is.




    The rules only describe how the same spell can affect a target multiple times, but the logic seems sound for opposite effects.




    The effects of different Spells add together while the durations of those Spells overlap. The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don’t combine, however. Instead, the most potent effect—such as the highest bonus—from those castings applies while their durations overlap.




    Also, Feeblemind describes specifically how to be ended.




    The spell can also be ended by greater restoration, heal, or wish.




    Polymorph is not an option.



    I would only allow Polymorph to override Feeblemind if upcast with a level 8 or 9 slot.






    share|improve this answer
















    • 1




      Note that the duration of feeblemind is instantaneous so the duration will not overlap with anything. So, the rules you cite seem to have no bearing on the issue.
      – Rubiksmoose
      Aug 20 at 15:00










    Your Answer




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    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes








    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes








    up vote
    12
    down vote



    accepted










    Yes



    Assuming you are talking about the polymorph spell (other spells may vary but most will actually have the same effect).



    The spell states:




    The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are
    replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its
    alignment and personality.




    So if the target is polymorphed into something with higher mental ability scores then yes - they may end up smarter, wiser and/or more charismatic! At least until polymorph ends.



    Note:



    Some argue that this would not work because Feeblemind, being a higher-level spell, would override a standard Polymorph.



    However, as Mindwin points out in his own answer, the rules about overlapping spell durations (which states only the most potent effect applies) would not apply here because Feeblemind is an instantaneous spell. Its effects may last a long time, but the actual spell itself is instant. Hence even a standard level casting of polymorph would temporarily override those effects.






    share|improve this answer






















    • Could you polymorph a person into itself to "cure" feeblemind, then? (If I need to post a separate question, go ahead and tell me)
      – Berry M.
      Aug 20 at 9:32










    • Probably a separate question, though I would say that the Polymorph spell is restrictive into what you can change into ("a beast whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target's challenge rating or level"). Higher level spells may be less restrictive
      – PJRZ
      Aug 20 at 9:47










    • The ability score isn't the creature's own during the duration of the Feeblemind. It is the affect of a spell. I don't think this would be intended, although JC has made some really silly rulings in the past.
      – Slagmoth
      Aug 20 at 11:55










    • @berrym. only the species. You cannot transform a person into Obama's pet dog for example, just into a 'dog'. Even if it could transform Galadriel into an elf, it would be a generic elf maiden, not the queen of Lorien.
      – Mindwin
      Aug 20 at 13:28










    • Yeah, the beast-only part of Polymorph slipped my mind for a moment. True polymorph would indeed allow them to be transformed into generic-elf-female-423.
      – Berry M.
      Aug 20 at 13:30














    up vote
    12
    down vote



    accepted










    Yes



    Assuming you are talking about the polymorph spell (other spells may vary but most will actually have the same effect).



    The spell states:




    The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are
    replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its
    alignment and personality.




    So if the target is polymorphed into something with higher mental ability scores then yes - they may end up smarter, wiser and/or more charismatic! At least until polymorph ends.



    Note:



    Some argue that this would not work because Feeblemind, being a higher-level spell, would override a standard Polymorph.



    However, as Mindwin points out in his own answer, the rules about overlapping spell durations (which states only the most potent effect applies) would not apply here because Feeblemind is an instantaneous spell. Its effects may last a long time, but the actual spell itself is instant. Hence even a standard level casting of polymorph would temporarily override those effects.






    share|improve this answer






















    • Could you polymorph a person into itself to "cure" feeblemind, then? (If I need to post a separate question, go ahead and tell me)
      – Berry M.
      Aug 20 at 9:32










    • Probably a separate question, though I would say that the Polymorph spell is restrictive into what you can change into ("a beast whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target's challenge rating or level"). Higher level spells may be less restrictive
      – PJRZ
      Aug 20 at 9:47










    • The ability score isn't the creature's own during the duration of the Feeblemind. It is the affect of a spell. I don't think this would be intended, although JC has made some really silly rulings in the past.
      – Slagmoth
      Aug 20 at 11:55










    • @berrym. only the species. You cannot transform a person into Obama's pet dog for example, just into a 'dog'. Even if it could transform Galadriel into an elf, it would be a generic elf maiden, not the queen of Lorien.
      – Mindwin
      Aug 20 at 13:28










    • Yeah, the beast-only part of Polymorph slipped my mind for a moment. True polymorph would indeed allow them to be transformed into generic-elf-female-423.
      – Berry M.
      Aug 20 at 13:30












    up vote
    12
    down vote



    accepted







    up vote
    12
    down vote



    accepted






    Yes



    Assuming you are talking about the polymorph spell (other spells may vary but most will actually have the same effect).



    The spell states:




    The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are
    replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its
    alignment and personality.




    So if the target is polymorphed into something with higher mental ability scores then yes - they may end up smarter, wiser and/or more charismatic! At least until polymorph ends.



    Note:



    Some argue that this would not work because Feeblemind, being a higher-level spell, would override a standard Polymorph.



    However, as Mindwin points out in his own answer, the rules about overlapping spell durations (which states only the most potent effect applies) would not apply here because Feeblemind is an instantaneous spell. Its effects may last a long time, but the actual spell itself is instant. Hence even a standard level casting of polymorph would temporarily override those effects.






    share|improve this answer














    Yes



    Assuming you are talking about the polymorph spell (other spells may vary but most will actually have the same effect).



    The spell states:




    The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are
    replaced by the statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its
    alignment and personality.




    So if the target is polymorphed into something with higher mental ability scores then yes - they may end up smarter, wiser and/or more charismatic! At least until polymorph ends.



    Note:



    Some argue that this would not work because Feeblemind, being a higher-level spell, would override a standard Polymorph.



    However, as Mindwin points out in his own answer, the rules about overlapping spell durations (which states only the most potent effect applies) would not apply here because Feeblemind is an instantaneous spell. Its effects may last a long time, but the actual spell itself is instant. Hence even a standard level casting of polymorph would temporarily override those effects.







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited Aug 20 at 15:01









    Rubiksmoose

    36.2k5183278




    36.2k5183278










    answered Aug 20 at 7:56









    PJRZ

    4,9561331




    4,9561331











    • Could you polymorph a person into itself to "cure" feeblemind, then? (If I need to post a separate question, go ahead and tell me)
      – Berry M.
      Aug 20 at 9:32










    • Probably a separate question, though I would say that the Polymorph spell is restrictive into what you can change into ("a beast whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target's challenge rating or level"). Higher level spells may be less restrictive
      – PJRZ
      Aug 20 at 9:47










    • The ability score isn't the creature's own during the duration of the Feeblemind. It is the affect of a spell. I don't think this would be intended, although JC has made some really silly rulings in the past.
      – Slagmoth
      Aug 20 at 11:55










    • @berrym. only the species. You cannot transform a person into Obama's pet dog for example, just into a 'dog'. Even if it could transform Galadriel into an elf, it would be a generic elf maiden, not the queen of Lorien.
      – Mindwin
      Aug 20 at 13:28










    • Yeah, the beast-only part of Polymorph slipped my mind for a moment. True polymorph would indeed allow them to be transformed into generic-elf-female-423.
      – Berry M.
      Aug 20 at 13:30
















    • Could you polymorph a person into itself to "cure" feeblemind, then? (If I need to post a separate question, go ahead and tell me)
      – Berry M.
      Aug 20 at 9:32










    • Probably a separate question, though I would say that the Polymorph spell is restrictive into what you can change into ("a beast whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target's challenge rating or level"). Higher level spells may be less restrictive
      – PJRZ
      Aug 20 at 9:47










    • The ability score isn't the creature's own during the duration of the Feeblemind. It is the affect of a spell. I don't think this would be intended, although JC has made some really silly rulings in the past.
      – Slagmoth
      Aug 20 at 11:55










    • @berrym. only the species. You cannot transform a person into Obama's pet dog for example, just into a 'dog'. Even if it could transform Galadriel into an elf, it would be a generic elf maiden, not the queen of Lorien.
      – Mindwin
      Aug 20 at 13:28










    • Yeah, the beast-only part of Polymorph slipped my mind for a moment. True polymorph would indeed allow them to be transformed into generic-elf-female-423.
      – Berry M.
      Aug 20 at 13:30















    Could you polymorph a person into itself to "cure" feeblemind, then? (If I need to post a separate question, go ahead and tell me)
    – Berry M.
    Aug 20 at 9:32




    Could you polymorph a person into itself to "cure" feeblemind, then? (If I need to post a separate question, go ahead and tell me)
    – Berry M.
    Aug 20 at 9:32












    Probably a separate question, though I would say that the Polymorph spell is restrictive into what you can change into ("a beast whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target's challenge rating or level"). Higher level spells may be less restrictive
    – PJRZ
    Aug 20 at 9:47




    Probably a separate question, though I would say that the Polymorph spell is restrictive into what you can change into ("a beast whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target's challenge rating or level"). Higher level spells may be less restrictive
    – PJRZ
    Aug 20 at 9:47












    The ability score isn't the creature's own during the duration of the Feeblemind. It is the affect of a spell. I don't think this would be intended, although JC has made some really silly rulings in the past.
    – Slagmoth
    Aug 20 at 11:55




    The ability score isn't the creature's own during the duration of the Feeblemind. It is the affect of a spell. I don't think this would be intended, although JC has made some really silly rulings in the past.
    – Slagmoth
    Aug 20 at 11:55












    @berrym. only the species. You cannot transform a person into Obama's pet dog for example, just into a 'dog'. Even if it could transform Galadriel into an elf, it would be a generic elf maiden, not the queen of Lorien.
    – Mindwin
    Aug 20 at 13:28




    @berrym. only the species. You cannot transform a person into Obama's pet dog for example, just into a 'dog'. Even if it could transform Galadriel into an elf, it would be a generic elf maiden, not the queen of Lorien.
    – Mindwin
    Aug 20 at 13:28












    Yeah, the beast-only part of Polymorph slipped my mind for a moment. True polymorph would indeed allow them to be transformed into generic-elf-female-423.
    – Berry M.
    Aug 20 at 13:30




    Yeah, the beast-only part of Polymorph slipped my mind for a moment. True polymorph would indeed allow them to be transformed into generic-elf-female-423.
    – Berry M.
    Aug 20 at 13:30












    up vote
    3
    down vote













    Yes



    Feeblemind is a instantaneous spell with a lasting effect that grants a save to remove.




    On a failed save, the creature's Intelligence and Charisma scores become 1. [...]



    At the end of every 30 days, the creature can repeat its saving throw against this spell. If it succeeds on its saving throw, the spell ends.




    Instantaneous spells do their effect then end. Feeblemind won't keep a check on the INT and CHA scores to set them to 1 every turn. It sets those scores once, and then it is done. Save every 30 days to revert back.



    Given this characteristic of instantaneous spells (they don't linger as a spell effect), anything that modifies either INT or CHA scores later will have their effect. Including polymorph. The save every 30 days would still be rolled.






    share|improve this answer
























      up vote
      3
      down vote













      Yes



      Feeblemind is a instantaneous spell with a lasting effect that grants a save to remove.




      On a failed save, the creature's Intelligence and Charisma scores become 1. [...]



      At the end of every 30 days, the creature can repeat its saving throw against this spell. If it succeeds on its saving throw, the spell ends.




      Instantaneous spells do their effect then end. Feeblemind won't keep a check on the INT and CHA scores to set them to 1 every turn. It sets those scores once, and then it is done. Save every 30 days to revert back.



      Given this characteristic of instantaneous spells (they don't linger as a spell effect), anything that modifies either INT or CHA scores later will have their effect. Including polymorph. The save every 30 days would still be rolled.






      share|improve this answer






















        up vote
        3
        down vote










        up vote
        3
        down vote









        Yes



        Feeblemind is a instantaneous spell with a lasting effect that grants a save to remove.




        On a failed save, the creature's Intelligence and Charisma scores become 1. [...]



        At the end of every 30 days, the creature can repeat its saving throw against this spell. If it succeeds on its saving throw, the spell ends.




        Instantaneous spells do their effect then end. Feeblemind won't keep a check on the INT and CHA scores to set them to 1 every turn. It sets those scores once, and then it is done. Save every 30 days to revert back.



        Given this characteristic of instantaneous spells (they don't linger as a spell effect), anything that modifies either INT or CHA scores later will have their effect. Including polymorph. The save every 30 days would still be rolled.






        share|improve this answer












        Yes



        Feeblemind is a instantaneous spell with a lasting effect that grants a save to remove.




        On a failed save, the creature's Intelligence and Charisma scores become 1. [...]



        At the end of every 30 days, the creature can repeat its saving throw against this spell. If it succeeds on its saving throw, the spell ends.




        Instantaneous spells do their effect then end. Feeblemind won't keep a check on the INT and CHA scores to set them to 1 every turn. It sets those scores once, and then it is done. Save every 30 days to revert back.



        Given this characteristic of instantaneous spells (they don't linger as a spell effect), anything that modifies either INT or CHA scores later will have their effect. Including polymorph. The save every 30 days would still be rolled.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered Aug 20 at 13:28









        Mindwin

        13.4k34129




        13.4k34129




















            up vote
            2
            down vote













            No.



            I would say that the 8th level Feeblemind would override the 4th level Polymorph.




            A spell’s level is a general indicator of how powerful it is.




            The rules only describe how the same spell can affect a target multiple times, but the logic seems sound for opposite effects.




            The effects of different Spells add together while the durations of those Spells overlap. The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don’t combine, however. Instead, the most potent effect—such as the highest bonus—from those castings applies while their durations overlap.




            Also, Feeblemind describes specifically how to be ended.




            The spell can also be ended by greater restoration, heal, or wish.




            Polymorph is not an option.



            I would only allow Polymorph to override Feeblemind if upcast with a level 8 or 9 slot.






            share|improve this answer
















            • 1




              Note that the duration of feeblemind is instantaneous so the duration will not overlap with anything. So, the rules you cite seem to have no bearing on the issue.
              – Rubiksmoose
              Aug 20 at 15:00














            up vote
            2
            down vote













            No.



            I would say that the 8th level Feeblemind would override the 4th level Polymorph.




            A spell’s level is a general indicator of how powerful it is.




            The rules only describe how the same spell can affect a target multiple times, but the logic seems sound for opposite effects.




            The effects of different Spells add together while the durations of those Spells overlap. The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don’t combine, however. Instead, the most potent effect—such as the highest bonus—from those castings applies while their durations overlap.




            Also, Feeblemind describes specifically how to be ended.




            The spell can also be ended by greater restoration, heal, or wish.




            Polymorph is not an option.



            I would only allow Polymorph to override Feeblemind if upcast with a level 8 or 9 slot.






            share|improve this answer
















            • 1




              Note that the duration of feeblemind is instantaneous so the duration will not overlap with anything. So, the rules you cite seem to have no bearing on the issue.
              – Rubiksmoose
              Aug 20 at 15:00












            up vote
            2
            down vote










            up vote
            2
            down vote









            No.



            I would say that the 8th level Feeblemind would override the 4th level Polymorph.




            A spell’s level is a general indicator of how powerful it is.




            The rules only describe how the same spell can affect a target multiple times, but the logic seems sound for opposite effects.




            The effects of different Spells add together while the durations of those Spells overlap. The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don’t combine, however. Instead, the most potent effect—such as the highest bonus—from those castings applies while their durations overlap.




            Also, Feeblemind describes specifically how to be ended.




            The spell can also be ended by greater restoration, heal, or wish.




            Polymorph is not an option.



            I would only allow Polymorph to override Feeblemind if upcast with a level 8 or 9 slot.






            share|improve this answer












            No.



            I would say that the 8th level Feeblemind would override the 4th level Polymorph.




            A spell’s level is a general indicator of how powerful it is.




            The rules only describe how the same spell can affect a target multiple times, but the logic seems sound for opposite effects.




            The effects of different Spells add together while the durations of those Spells overlap. The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don’t combine, however. Instead, the most potent effect—such as the highest bonus—from those castings applies while their durations overlap.




            Also, Feeblemind describes specifically how to be ended.




            The spell can also be ended by greater restoration, heal, or wish.




            Polymorph is not an option.



            I would only allow Polymorph to override Feeblemind if upcast with a level 8 or 9 slot.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered Aug 20 at 11:16









            BlueMoon93

            9,526954105




            9,526954105







            • 1




              Note that the duration of feeblemind is instantaneous so the duration will not overlap with anything. So, the rules you cite seem to have no bearing on the issue.
              – Rubiksmoose
              Aug 20 at 15:00












            • 1




              Note that the duration of feeblemind is instantaneous so the duration will not overlap with anything. So, the rules you cite seem to have no bearing on the issue.
              – Rubiksmoose
              Aug 20 at 15:00







            1




            1




            Note that the duration of feeblemind is instantaneous so the duration will not overlap with anything. So, the rules you cite seem to have no bearing on the issue.
            – Rubiksmoose
            Aug 20 at 15:00




            Note that the duration of feeblemind is instantaneous so the duration will not overlap with anything. So, the rules you cite seem to have no bearing on the issue.
            – Rubiksmoose
            Aug 20 at 15:00












             

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