Is lift in fact a kind of drag?
Clash Royale CLAN TAG#URR8PPP
up vote
14
down vote
favorite
Given the similarities between Lift and drag and their very similar relationships to the density, surface area, and airflow velocity, could one, in theory, describe aerodynamic lift as a kind of drag where most of the force from lift is just directed in the vertical direction where this vertical component of the force opposes gravity?
aerodynamics lift drag
add a comment |Â
up vote
14
down vote
favorite
Given the similarities between Lift and drag and their very similar relationships to the density, surface area, and airflow velocity, could one, in theory, describe aerodynamic lift as a kind of drag where most of the force from lift is just directed in the vertical direction where this vertical component of the force opposes gravity?
aerodynamics lift drag
2
It is, in the same way that drag is effectively lift in the direction you (often) don't want it to be.
â Jules
Sep 7 at 14:55
6
Given the similarities between music and noise and their very similar relationships to the ear, pressure waves, and psychoacoustics, could one, in theory, describe music as a kind of noise?
â Phil Frost
Sep 7 at 17:31
2
Shoegazer here. We certainly think so! @PhilFrost
â Harper
Sep 7 at 20:46
add a comment |Â
up vote
14
down vote
favorite
up vote
14
down vote
favorite
Given the similarities between Lift and drag and their very similar relationships to the density, surface area, and airflow velocity, could one, in theory, describe aerodynamic lift as a kind of drag where most of the force from lift is just directed in the vertical direction where this vertical component of the force opposes gravity?
aerodynamics lift drag
Given the similarities between Lift and drag and their very similar relationships to the density, surface area, and airflow velocity, could one, in theory, describe aerodynamic lift as a kind of drag where most of the force from lift is just directed in the vertical direction where this vertical component of the force opposes gravity?
aerodynamics lift drag
aerodynamics lift drag
edited Sep 7 at 4:49
asked Sep 7 at 4:29
Carlo Felicione
35.7k264135
35.7k264135
2
It is, in the same way that drag is effectively lift in the direction you (often) don't want it to be.
â Jules
Sep 7 at 14:55
6
Given the similarities between music and noise and their very similar relationships to the ear, pressure waves, and psychoacoustics, could one, in theory, describe music as a kind of noise?
â Phil Frost
Sep 7 at 17:31
2
Shoegazer here. We certainly think so! @PhilFrost
â Harper
Sep 7 at 20:46
add a comment |Â
2
It is, in the same way that drag is effectively lift in the direction you (often) don't want it to be.
â Jules
Sep 7 at 14:55
6
Given the similarities between music and noise and their very similar relationships to the ear, pressure waves, and psychoacoustics, could one, in theory, describe music as a kind of noise?
â Phil Frost
Sep 7 at 17:31
2
Shoegazer here. We certainly think so! @PhilFrost
â Harper
Sep 7 at 20:46
2
2
It is, in the same way that drag is effectively lift in the direction you (often) don't want it to be.
â Jules
Sep 7 at 14:55
It is, in the same way that drag is effectively lift in the direction you (often) don't want it to be.
â Jules
Sep 7 at 14:55
6
6
Given the similarities between music and noise and their very similar relationships to the ear, pressure waves, and psychoacoustics, could one, in theory, describe music as a kind of noise?
â Phil Frost
Sep 7 at 17:31
Given the similarities between music and noise and their very similar relationships to the ear, pressure waves, and psychoacoustics, could one, in theory, describe music as a kind of noise?
â Phil Frost
Sep 7 at 17:31
2
2
Shoegazer here. We certainly think so! @PhilFrost
â Harper
Sep 7 at 20:46
Shoegazer here. We certainly think so! @PhilFrost
â Harper
Sep 7 at 20:46
add a comment |Â
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
up vote
54
down vote
An 'aerodynamic force' (just one force...) appears when a body is immersed in a fluid stream. By convention, two components are chosen, one of them parallel to the stream direction, called 'drag', and the other one, perpendicular to that 'drag' is termed 'lift'.
3
such a simple (and correct) answer
â Radu094
Sep 8 at 13:58
Yes. Just to be more accurate: lift and drag are just components of the force vector but they doesn't say anything about the nature of the force (inertial or viscous for ie.)
â Gianluca Conte
Sep 9 at 20:50
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
At least as the terms are normally used, lift is not drag, and drag is not lift.
What I suspect you're looking for is: "induced drag", which is the part of the drag that's caused by an airfoil generating lift.
Induced drag is opposed to "parasitic drag", which includes things like friction drag (friction between the airfoil's skin and the air) and interference drag (e.g., there's some extra drag where the wing mounts to the fuselage) and so on.
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
Using the wing as a frame of reference, then the aerodynamic force is related to diversion (change in direction) of the relative flow. In a normal situation, the relative flow in front of the wing is horizontal, and the wing curves the flow downwards a bit. Assuming an ideal case where the flow speed isn't changed, then the horizontal component of the initial velocity is decreased somewhat (induced drag), and the vertical component is increased from zero to some non-zero value (lift). In a real world situation, the flow speed is reduced due to friction, viscosity, profile drag, ..., which further reduces the horizontal component of initial velocity (other components of drag).
Using the air as a frame of reference, drag is related to the forward acceleration of air, while lift is related to the vertical acceleration of air. Consider the case of a bus on a highway, the air is accelerated forwards, most of this due to the low pressure area behind the bus, some due to the air being pushed forward and around the front of the bus, while there is zero lift.
On a side note, lift calculations are simpler than drag calculations because lift calculations can be based on flow field calculations that calculate speeds (relative to the wing) and the coexistent pressures related to those speeds. Drag calculations are more complicated because they need to take turbulent and boundary layer effects into account.
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
Maybe the best answer here is that, while lift and drag are separate quantities, their behavior is governed by the same physics ie conservation of momentum and NewtonâÂÂs Third Law of Motion.
1
Physics laws are universal, but lift and drag are 'separate quantities' only by convention. The aerodynamic force is decomposed in lift and drag just because it's useful to do it so. Other de-compositions are possible, if probably not as useful, but that is the only 'reality' of lift and drag, an instrumental reality...
â xxavier
Sep 8 at 16:03
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
One might ask what application would considering lift as a type of drag have? They are compared as L/D ratio as a parameter of design performance, however,
especially as pilots, knowing the distinction may
be extremely important as they apply to flight.
The amount of lift one can generate is dependent on
velocity (for a given aircraft). Why this is critically important is that velocity is the kinetic
energy state, which is created by adding energy to
the system from the thrust. A little
like filling a barrel. One spigot is altitude
(potential energy) that you can pour back in as needed. The other is drag. Thrust keeps filling
the barrel, but it must be filled to a certain minimum
level or the plane does not have enough velocity
to fly.
Empty the barrel too fast (steep climb), you can grab your
potential energy (altitude) and pour it back in to
get flying speed back. The thrust can only be added
at a certain rate, as we know on our take off roll.
Drag finds application as how much energy is being
taken out (as related to fuel consumption or max velocity) and can be compared with lift for a given configuration, AoA, airfoil type, etc.in engineering theory, but as far as piloting, not related IMHO.
Bob
add a comment |Â
up vote
-2
down vote
I think that's the wrong way to look at it. The lift force is 90 degrees to the airstream. When you're gliding, the lift force is producing thrust, not drag, or else you would stop dead and fall from the sky.
I think of the lift-related drag component as the energy consumed in inducing the air to move from point A to point B, creating the pressure differentials and down thrust from action/reaction, as the wing passes through it.
3
No a component of the gravitational force acts as thrust in a glide, not lift.
â Carlo Felicione
Sep 7 at 13:27
But the gravitational force is straight down, not forward.
â John K
Sep 7 at 14:28
In a glide, a component of the gravitational force now acts parallel to and opposite the direction of, the relative wind, causing the airplane to move forward.
â Carlo Felicione
Sep 7 at 15:12
So when a helicopter tilts its rotor and angles its lift vector forward, the forward thrust component is generated by gravity?
â John K
Sep 7 at 15:39
2
No. ThatâÂÂs not the same thing. You need to do a free body diagram of that taking into account the relative wind as well. Both Lift and thrust there are being generated by engine power. Now if the helicopter loses engine power and begins an autorotative descent, then the forward thrust is being provided by gravity.
â Carlo Felicione
Sep 7 at 15:49
 |Â
show 7 more comments
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
54
down vote
An 'aerodynamic force' (just one force...) appears when a body is immersed in a fluid stream. By convention, two components are chosen, one of them parallel to the stream direction, called 'drag', and the other one, perpendicular to that 'drag' is termed 'lift'.
3
such a simple (and correct) answer
â Radu094
Sep 8 at 13:58
Yes. Just to be more accurate: lift and drag are just components of the force vector but they doesn't say anything about the nature of the force (inertial or viscous for ie.)
â Gianluca Conte
Sep 9 at 20:50
add a comment |Â
up vote
54
down vote
An 'aerodynamic force' (just one force...) appears when a body is immersed in a fluid stream. By convention, two components are chosen, one of them parallel to the stream direction, called 'drag', and the other one, perpendicular to that 'drag' is termed 'lift'.
3
such a simple (and correct) answer
â Radu094
Sep 8 at 13:58
Yes. Just to be more accurate: lift and drag are just components of the force vector but they doesn't say anything about the nature of the force (inertial or viscous for ie.)
â Gianluca Conte
Sep 9 at 20:50
add a comment |Â
up vote
54
down vote
up vote
54
down vote
An 'aerodynamic force' (just one force...) appears when a body is immersed in a fluid stream. By convention, two components are chosen, one of them parallel to the stream direction, called 'drag', and the other one, perpendicular to that 'drag' is termed 'lift'.
An 'aerodynamic force' (just one force...) appears when a body is immersed in a fluid stream. By convention, two components are chosen, one of them parallel to the stream direction, called 'drag', and the other one, perpendicular to that 'drag' is termed 'lift'.
answered Sep 7 at 5:23
xxavier
5,04411344
5,04411344
3
such a simple (and correct) answer
â Radu094
Sep 8 at 13:58
Yes. Just to be more accurate: lift and drag are just components of the force vector but they doesn't say anything about the nature of the force (inertial or viscous for ie.)
â Gianluca Conte
Sep 9 at 20:50
add a comment |Â
3
such a simple (and correct) answer
â Radu094
Sep 8 at 13:58
Yes. Just to be more accurate: lift and drag are just components of the force vector but they doesn't say anything about the nature of the force (inertial or viscous for ie.)
â Gianluca Conte
Sep 9 at 20:50
3
3
such a simple (and correct) answer
â Radu094
Sep 8 at 13:58
such a simple (and correct) answer
â Radu094
Sep 8 at 13:58
Yes. Just to be more accurate: lift and drag are just components of the force vector but they doesn't say anything about the nature of the force (inertial or viscous for ie.)
â Gianluca Conte
Sep 9 at 20:50
Yes. Just to be more accurate: lift and drag are just components of the force vector but they doesn't say anything about the nature of the force (inertial or viscous for ie.)
â Gianluca Conte
Sep 9 at 20:50
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
At least as the terms are normally used, lift is not drag, and drag is not lift.
What I suspect you're looking for is: "induced drag", which is the part of the drag that's caused by an airfoil generating lift.
Induced drag is opposed to "parasitic drag", which includes things like friction drag (friction between the airfoil's skin and the air) and interference drag (e.g., there's some extra drag where the wing mounts to the fuselage) and so on.
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
At least as the terms are normally used, lift is not drag, and drag is not lift.
What I suspect you're looking for is: "induced drag", which is the part of the drag that's caused by an airfoil generating lift.
Induced drag is opposed to "parasitic drag", which includes things like friction drag (friction between the airfoil's skin and the air) and interference drag (e.g., there's some extra drag where the wing mounts to the fuselage) and so on.
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
At least as the terms are normally used, lift is not drag, and drag is not lift.
What I suspect you're looking for is: "induced drag", which is the part of the drag that's caused by an airfoil generating lift.
Induced drag is opposed to "parasitic drag", which includes things like friction drag (friction between the airfoil's skin and the air) and interference drag (e.g., there's some extra drag where the wing mounts to the fuselage) and so on.
At least as the terms are normally used, lift is not drag, and drag is not lift.
What I suspect you're looking for is: "induced drag", which is the part of the drag that's caused by an airfoil generating lift.
Induced drag is opposed to "parasitic drag", which includes things like friction drag (friction between the airfoil's skin and the air) and interference drag (e.g., there's some extra drag where the wing mounts to the fuselage) and so on.
answered Sep 7 at 17:05
Jerry Coffin
2,311815
2,311815
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
Using the wing as a frame of reference, then the aerodynamic force is related to diversion (change in direction) of the relative flow. In a normal situation, the relative flow in front of the wing is horizontal, and the wing curves the flow downwards a bit. Assuming an ideal case where the flow speed isn't changed, then the horizontal component of the initial velocity is decreased somewhat (induced drag), and the vertical component is increased from zero to some non-zero value (lift). In a real world situation, the flow speed is reduced due to friction, viscosity, profile drag, ..., which further reduces the horizontal component of initial velocity (other components of drag).
Using the air as a frame of reference, drag is related to the forward acceleration of air, while lift is related to the vertical acceleration of air. Consider the case of a bus on a highway, the air is accelerated forwards, most of this due to the low pressure area behind the bus, some due to the air being pushed forward and around the front of the bus, while there is zero lift.
On a side note, lift calculations are simpler than drag calculations because lift calculations can be based on flow field calculations that calculate speeds (relative to the wing) and the coexistent pressures related to those speeds. Drag calculations are more complicated because they need to take turbulent and boundary layer effects into account.
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
Using the wing as a frame of reference, then the aerodynamic force is related to diversion (change in direction) of the relative flow. In a normal situation, the relative flow in front of the wing is horizontal, and the wing curves the flow downwards a bit. Assuming an ideal case where the flow speed isn't changed, then the horizontal component of the initial velocity is decreased somewhat (induced drag), and the vertical component is increased from zero to some non-zero value (lift). In a real world situation, the flow speed is reduced due to friction, viscosity, profile drag, ..., which further reduces the horizontal component of initial velocity (other components of drag).
Using the air as a frame of reference, drag is related to the forward acceleration of air, while lift is related to the vertical acceleration of air. Consider the case of a bus on a highway, the air is accelerated forwards, most of this due to the low pressure area behind the bus, some due to the air being pushed forward and around the front of the bus, while there is zero lift.
On a side note, lift calculations are simpler than drag calculations because lift calculations can be based on flow field calculations that calculate speeds (relative to the wing) and the coexistent pressures related to those speeds. Drag calculations are more complicated because they need to take turbulent and boundary layer effects into account.
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
Using the wing as a frame of reference, then the aerodynamic force is related to diversion (change in direction) of the relative flow. In a normal situation, the relative flow in front of the wing is horizontal, and the wing curves the flow downwards a bit. Assuming an ideal case where the flow speed isn't changed, then the horizontal component of the initial velocity is decreased somewhat (induced drag), and the vertical component is increased from zero to some non-zero value (lift). In a real world situation, the flow speed is reduced due to friction, viscosity, profile drag, ..., which further reduces the horizontal component of initial velocity (other components of drag).
Using the air as a frame of reference, drag is related to the forward acceleration of air, while lift is related to the vertical acceleration of air. Consider the case of a bus on a highway, the air is accelerated forwards, most of this due to the low pressure area behind the bus, some due to the air being pushed forward and around the front of the bus, while there is zero lift.
On a side note, lift calculations are simpler than drag calculations because lift calculations can be based on flow field calculations that calculate speeds (relative to the wing) and the coexistent pressures related to those speeds. Drag calculations are more complicated because they need to take turbulent and boundary layer effects into account.
Using the wing as a frame of reference, then the aerodynamic force is related to diversion (change in direction) of the relative flow. In a normal situation, the relative flow in front of the wing is horizontal, and the wing curves the flow downwards a bit. Assuming an ideal case where the flow speed isn't changed, then the horizontal component of the initial velocity is decreased somewhat (induced drag), and the vertical component is increased from zero to some non-zero value (lift). In a real world situation, the flow speed is reduced due to friction, viscosity, profile drag, ..., which further reduces the horizontal component of initial velocity (other components of drag).
Using the air as a frame of reference, drag is related to the forward acceleration of air, while lift is related to the vertical acceleration of air. Consider the case of a bus on a highway, the air is accelerated forwards, most of this due to the low pressure area behind the bus, some due to the air being pushed forward and around the front of the bus, while there is zero lift.
On a side note, lift calculations are simpler than drag calculations because lift calculations can be based on flow field calculations that calculate speeds (relative to the wing) and the coexistent pressures related to those speeds. Drag calculations are more complicated because they need to take turbulent and boundary layer effects into account.
answered Sep 7 at 21:29
rcgldr
31615
31615
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
Maybe the best answer here is that, while lift and drag are separate quantities, their behavior is governed by the same physics ie conservation of momentum and NewtonâÂÂs Third Law of Motion.
1
Physics laws are universal, but lift and drag are 'separate quantities' only by convention. The aerodynamic force is decomposed in lift and drag just because it's useful to do it so. Other de-compositions are possible, if probably not as useful, but that is the only 'reality' of lift and drag, an instrumental reality...
â xxavier
Sep 8 at 16:03
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
Maybe the best answer here is that, while lift and drag are separate quantities, their behavior is governed by the same physics ie conservation of momentum and NewtonâÂÂs Third Law of Motion.
1
Physics laws are universal, but lift and drag are 'separate quantities' only by convention. The aerodynamic force is decomposed in lift and drag just because it's useful to do it so. Other de-compositions are possible, if probably not as useful, but that is the only 'reality' of lift and drag, an instrumental reality...
â xxavier
Sep 8 at 16:03
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
Maybe the best answer here is that, while lift and drag are separate quantities, their behavior is governed by the same physics ie conservation of momentum and NewtonâÂÂs Third Law of Motion.
Maybe the best answer here is that, while lift and drag are separate quantities, their behavior is governed by the same physics ie conservation of momentum and NewtonâÂÂs Third Law of Motion.
answered Sep 8 at 14:31
Carlo Felicione
35.7k264135
35.7k264135
1
Physics laws are universal, but lift and drag are 'separate quantities' only by convention. The aerodynamic force is decomposed in lift and drag just because it's useful to do it so. Other de-compositions are possible, if probably not as useful, but that is the only 'reality' of lift and drag, an instrumental reality...
â xxavier
Sep 8 at 16:03
add a comment |Â
1
Physics laws are universal, but lift and drag are 'separate quantities' only by convention. The aerodynamic force is decomposed in lift and drag just because it's useful to do it so. Other de-compositions are possible, if probably not as useful, but that is the only 'reality' of lift and drag, an instrumental reality...
â xxavier
Sep 8 at 16:03
1
1
Physics laws are universal, but lift and drag are 'separate quantities' only by convention. The aerodynamic force is decomposed in lift and drag just because it's useful to do it so. Other de-compositions are possible, if probably not as useful, but that is the only 'reality' of lift and drag, an instrumental reality...
â xxavier
Sep 8 at 16:03
Physics laws are universal, but lift and drag are 'separate quantities' only by convention. The aerodynamic force is decomposed in lift and drag just because it's useful to do it so. Other de-compositions are possible, if probably not as useful, but that is the only 'reality' of lift and drag, an instrumental reality...
â xxavier
Sep 8 at 16:03
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
One might ask what application would considering lift as a type of drag have? They are compared as L/D ratio as a parameter of design performance, however,
especially as pilots, knowing the distinction may
be extremely important as they apply to flight.
The amount of lift one can generate is dependent on
velocity (for a given aircraft). Why this is critically important is that velocity is the kinetic
energy state, which is created by adding energy to
the system from the thrust. A little
like filling a barrel. One spigot is altitude
(potential energy) that you can pour back in as needed. The other is drag. Thrust keeps filling
the barrel, but it must be filled to a certain minimum
level or the plane does not have enough velocity
to fly.
Empty the barrel too fast (steep climb), you can grab your
potential energy (altitude) and pour it back in to
get flying speed back. The thrust can only be added
at a certain rate, as we know on our take off roll.
Drag finds application as how much energy is being
taken out (as related to fuel consumption or max velocity) and can be compared with lift for a given configuration, AoA, airfoil type, etc.in engineering theory, but as far as piloting, not related IMHO.
Bob
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
One might ask what application would considering lift as a type of drag have? They are compared as L/D ratio as a parameter of design performance, however,
especially as pilots, knowing the distinction may
be extremely important as they apply to flight.
The amount of lift one can generate is dependent on
velocity (for a given aircraft). Why this is critically important is that velocity is the kinetic
energy state, which is created by adding energy to
the system from the thrust. A little
like filling a barrel. One spigot is altitude
(potential energy) that you can pour back in as needed. The other is drag. Thrust keeps filling
the barrel, but it must be filled to a certain minimum
level or the plane does not have enough velocity
to fly.
Empty the barrel too fast (steep climb), you can grab your
potential energy (altitude) and pour it back in to
get flying speed back. The thrust can only be added
at a certain rate, as we know on our take off roll.
Drag finds application as how much energy is being
taken out (as related to fuel consumption or max velocity) and can be compared with lift for a given configuration, AoA, airfoil type, etc.in engineering theory, but as far as piloting, not related IMHO.
Bob
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
One might ask what application would considering lift as a type of drag have? They are compared as L/D ratio as a parameter of design performance, however,
especially as pilots, knowing the distinction may
be extremely important as they apply to flight.
The amount of lift one can generate is dependent on
velocity (for a given aircraft). Why this is critically important is that velocity is the kinetic
energy state, which is created by adding energy to
the system from the thrust. A little
like filling a barrel. One spigot is altitude
(potential energy) that you can pour back in as needed. The other is drag. Thrust keeps filling
the barrel, but it must be filled to a certain minimum
level or the plane does not have enough velocity
to fly.
Empty the barrel too fast (steep climb), you can grab your
potential energy (altitude) and pour it back in to
get flying speed back. The thrust can only be added
at a certain rate, as we know on our take off roll.
Drag finds application as how much energy is being
taken out (as related to fuel consumption or max velocity) and can be compared with lift for a given configuration, AoA, airfoil type, etc.in engineering theory, but as far as piloting, not related IMHO.
Bob
One might ask what application would considering lift as a type of drag have? They are compared as L/D ratio as a parameter of design performance, however,
especially as pilots, knowing the distinction may
be extremely important as they apply to flight.
The amount of lift one can generate is dependent on
velocity (for a given aircraft). Why this is critically important is that velocity is the kinetic
energy state, which is created by adding energy to
the system from the thrust. A little
like filling a barrel. One spigot is altitude
(potential energy) that you can pour back in as needed. The other is drag. Thrust keeps filling
the barrel, but it must be filled to a certain minimum
level or the plane does not have enough velocity
to fly.
Empty the barrel too fast (steep climb), you can grab your
potential energy (altitude) and pour it back in to
get flying speed back. The thrust can only be added
at a certain rate, as we know on our take off roll.
Drag finds application as how much energy is being
taken out (as related to fuel consumption or max velocity) and can be compared with lift for a given configuration, AoA, airfoil type, etc.in engineering theory, but as far as piloting, not related IMHO.
Bob
edited Sep 8 at 15:57
answered Sep 8 at 0:25
Robert DiGiovanni
2174
2174
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
-2
down vote
I think that's the wrong way to look at it. The lift force is 90 degrees to the airstream. When you're gliding, the lift force is producing thrust, not drag, or else you would stop dead and fall from the sky.
I think of the lift-related drag component as the energy consumed in inducing the air to move from point A to point B, creating the pressure differentials and down thrust from action/reaction, as the wing passes through it.
3
No a component of the gravitational force acts as thrust in a glide, not lift.
â Carlo Felicione
Sep 7 at 13:27
But the gravitational force is straight down, not forward.
â John K
Sep 7 at 14:28
In a glide, a component of the gravitational force now acts parallel to and opposite the direction of, the relative wind, causing the airplane to move forward.
â Carlo Felicione
Sep 7 at 15:12
So when a helicopter tilts its rotor and angles its lift vector forward, the forward thrust component is generated by gravity?
â John K
Sep 7 at 15:39
2
No. ThatâÂÂs not the same thing. You need to do a free body diagram of that taking into account the relative wind as well. Both Lift and thrust there are being generated by engine power. Now if the helicopter loses engine power and begins an autorotative descent, then the forward thrust is being provided by gravity.
â Carlo Felicione
Sep 7 at 15:49
 |Â
show 7 more comments
up vote
-2
down vote
I think that's the wrong way to look at it. The lift force is 90 degrees to the airstream. When you're gliding, the lift force is producing thrust, not drag, or else you would stop dead and fall from the sky.
I think of the lift-related drag component as the energy consumed in inducing the air to move from point A to point B, creating the pressure differentials and down thrust from action/reaction, as the wing passes through it.
3
No a component of the gravitational force acts as thrust in a glide, not lift.
â Carlo Felicione
Sep 7 at 13:27
But the gravitational force is straight down, not forward.
â John K
Sep 7 at 14:28
In a glide, a component of the gravitational force now acts parallel to and opposite the direction of, the relative wind, causing the airplane to move forward.
â Carlo Felicione
Sep 7 at 15:12
So when a helicopter tilts its rotor and angles its lift vector forward, the forward thrust component is generated by gravity?
â John K
Sep 7 at 15:39
2
No. ThatâÂÂs not the same thing. You need to do a free body diagram of that taking into account the relative wind as well. Both Lift and thrust there are being generated by engine power. Now if the helicopter loses engine power and begins an autorotative descent, then the forward thrust is being provided by gravity.
â Carlo Felicione
Sep 7 at 15:49
 |Â
show 7 more comments
up vote
-2
down vote
up vote
-2
down vote
I think that's the wrong way to look at it. The lift force is 90 degrees to the airstream. When you're gliding, the lift force is producing thrust, not drag, or else you would stop dead and fall from the sky.
I think of the lift-related drag component as the energy consumed in inducing the air to move from point A to point B, creating the pressure differentials and down thrust from action/reaction, as the wing passes through it.
I think that's the wrong way to look at it. The lift force is 90 degrees to the airstream. When you're gliding, the lift force is producing thrust, not drag, or else you would stop dead and fall from the sky.
I think of the lift-related drag component as the energy consumed in inducing the air to move from point A to point B, creating the pressure differentials and down thrust from action/reaction, as the wing passes through it.
answered Sep 7 at 12:57
John K
7,814725
7,814725
3
No a component of the gravitational force acts as thrust in a glide, not lift.
â Carlo Felicione
Sep 7 at 13:27
But the gravitational force is straight down, not forward.
â John K
Sep 7 at 14:28
In a glide, a component of the gravitational force now acts parallel to and opposite the direction of, the relative wind, causing the airplane to move forward.
â Carlo Felicione
Sep 7 at 15:12
So when a helicopter tilts its rotor and angles its lift vector forward, the forward thrust component is generated by gravity?
â John K
Sep 7 at 15:39
2
No. ThatâÂÂs not the same thing. You need to do a free body diagram of that taking into account the relative wind as well. Both Lift and thrust there are being generated by engine power. Now if the helicopter loses engine power and begins an autorotative descent, then the forward thrust is being provided by gravity.
â Carlo Felicione
Sep 7 at 15:49
 |Â
show 7 more comments
3
No a component of the gravitational force acts as thrust in a glide, not lift.
â Carlo Felicione
Sep 7 at 13:27
But the gravitational force is straight down, not forward.
â John K
Sep 7 at 14:28
In a glide, a component of the gravitational force now acts parallel to and opposite the direction of, the relative wind, causing the airplane to move forward.
â Carlo Felicione
Sep 7 at 15:12
So when a helicopter tilts its rotor and angles its lift vector forward, the forward thrust component is generated by gravity?
â John K
Sep 7 at 15:39
2
No. ThatâÂÂs not the same thing. You need to do a free body diagram of that taking into account the relative wind as well. Both Lift and thrust there are being generated by engine power. Now if the helicopter loses engine power and begins an autorotative descent, then the forward thrust is being provided by gravity.
â Carlo Felicione
Sep 7 at 15:49
3
3
No a component of the gravitational force acts as thrust in a glide, not lift.
â Carlo Felicione
Sep 7 at 13:27
No a component of the gravitational force acts as thrust in a glide, not lift.
â Carlo Felicione
Sep 7 at 13:27
But the gravitational force is straight down, not forward.
â John K
Sep 7 at 14:28
But the gravitational force is straight down, not forward.
â John K
Sep 7 at 14:28
In a glide, a component of the gravitational force now acts parallel to and opposite the direction of, the relative wind, causing the airplane to move forward.
â Carlo Felicione
Sep 7 at 15:12
In a glide, a component of the gravitational force now acts parallel to and opposite the direction of, the relative wind, causing the airplane to move forward.
â Carlo Felicione
Sep 7 at 15:12
So when a helicopter tilts its rotor and angles its lift vector forward, the forward thrust component is generated by gravity?
â John K
Sep 7 at 15:39
So when a helicopter tilts its rotor and angles its lift vector forward, the forward thrust component is generated by gravity?
â John K
Sep 7 at 15:39
2
2
No. ThatâÂÂs not the same thing. You need to do a free body diagram of that taking into account the relative wind as well. Both Lift and thrust there are being generated by engine power. Now if the helicopter loses engine power and begins an autorotative descent, then the forward thrust is being provided by gravity.
â Carlo Felicione
Sep 7 at 15:49
No. ThatâÂÂs not the same thing. You need to do a free body diagram of that taking into account the relative wind as well. Both Lift and thrust there are being generated by engine power. Now if the helicopter loses engine power and begins an autorotative descent, then the forward thrust is being provided by gravity.
â Carlo Felicione
Sep 7 at 15:49
 |Â
show 7 more comments
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2faviation.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f54892%2fis-lift-in-fact-a-kind-of-drag%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
2
It is, in the same way that drag is effectively lift in the direction you (often) don't want it to be.
â Jules
Sep 7 at 14:55
6
Given the similarities between music and noise and their very similar relationships to the ear, pressure waves, and psychoacoustics, could one, in theory, describe music as a kind of noise?
â Phil Frost
Sep 7 at 17:31
2
Shoegazer here. We certainly think so! @PhilFrost
â Harper
Sep 7 at 20:46