Homological orientation vs. smooth orientation.

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Assume that $M$ is an $n$-dimensional smooth manifold. Although I have seen many threads and online handouts dealing with these two different ideas I cannot understand what makes them equivalent. Why the choice of continuous local orientation implies smooth orientation for $M$? The definitions I am using are the following
$mathbf1.)$ Smooth orientation for a manifold $M$ is a maximal atlas $ (U_alpha, phi_alpha) _alpha in A$, such that the transition map $phi_alpha circ phi^-1_beta$, $forall alpha, beta in A$, has positive Jacobian determinant.
$mathbf2.)$ Local (homological) orientation for a smooth manifold $M$ is the choice of generator $[M]_x in H_n(M,M-x) cong mathbbZ$, $forall x in M$. We call such a choice continuous, if for every $x in M$, there exists a neighbourhood $x in U subset M$ and a class $a in H_n(M,M-U)$, such that the inclusion $(M, M-U) to (M,M-x)$, induces a homomorphism $H_n(M,M-x) to H_n(M,M-U)$ which sends $a$ to $[M]_x$. A continuous local orientation for $M$ is called homological orientation.
algebraic-topology manifolds
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up vote
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Assume that $M$ is an $n$-dimensional smooth manifold. Although I have seen many threads and online handouts dealing with these two different ideas I cannot understand what makes them equivalent. Why the choice of continuous local orientation implies smooth orientation for $M$? The definitions I am using are the following
$mathbf1.)$ Smooth orientation for a manifold $M$ is a maximal atlas $ (U_alpha, phi_alpha) _alpha in A$, such that the transition map $phi_alpha circ phi^-1_beta$, $forall alpha, beta in A$, has positive Jacobian determinant.
$mathbf2.)$ Local (homological) orientation for a smooth manifold $M$ is the choice of generator $[M]_x in H_n(M,M-x) cong mathbbZ$, $forall x in M$. We call such a choice continuous, if for every $x in M$, there exists a neighbourhood $x in U subset M$ and a class $a in H_n(M,M-U)$, such that the inclusion $(M, M-U) to (M,M-x)$, induces a homomorphism $H_n(M,M-x) to H_n(M,M-U)$ which sends $a$ to $[M]_x$. A continuous local orientation for $M$ is called homological orientation.
algebraic-topology manifolds
1
I find the explanation here really solid: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientability
â Randall
Aug 10 at 16:24
I have already checked that, I didn't find an answer unfortunately. I can't see the real relation between them.
â user430191
Aug 10 at 16:29
I can't see how the local orientation determines an orientation of M.
â user430191
Aug 10 at 16:31
3
It would be helpful if you included in your question the exact two definitions you would like to compare.
â Tyrone
Aug 10 at 16:36
add a comment |Â
up vote
4
down vote
favorite
up vote
4
down vote
favorite
Assume that $M$ is an $n$-dimensional smooth manifold. Although I have seen many threads and online handouts dealing with these two different ideas I cannot understand what makes them equivalent. Why the choice of continuous local orientation implies smooth orientation for $M$? The definitions I am using are the following
$mathbf1.)$ Smooth orientation for a manifold $M$ is a maximal atlas $ (U_alpha, phi_alpha) _alpha in A$, such that the transition map $phi_alpha circ phi^-1_beta$, $forall alpha, beta in A$, has positive Jacobian determinant.
$mathbf2.)$ Local (homological) orientation for a smooth manifold $M$ is the choice of generator $[M]_x in H_n(M,M-x) cong mathbbZ$, $forall x in M$. We call such a choice continuous, if for every $x in M$, there exists a neighbourhood $x in U subset M$ and a class $a in H_n(M,M-U)$, such that the inclusion $(M, M-U) to (M,M-x)$, induces a homomorphism $H_n(M,M-x) to H_n(M,M-U)$ which sends $a$ to $[M]_x$. A continuous local orientation for $M$ is called homological orientation.
algebraic-topology manifolds
Assume that $M$ is an $n$-dimensional smooth manifold. Although I have seen many threads and online handouts dealing with these two different ideas I cannot understand what makes them equivalent. Why the choice of continuous local orientation implies smooth orientation for $M$? The definitions I am using are the following
$mathbf1.)$ Smooth orientation for a manifold $M$ is a maximal atlas $ (U_alpha, phi_alpha) _alpha in A$, such that the transition map $phi_alpha circ phi^-1_beta$, $forall alpha, beta in A$, has positive Jacobian determinant.
$mathbf2.)$ Local (homological) orientation for a smooth manifold $M$ is the choice of generator $[M]_x in H_n(M,M-x) cong mathbbZ$, $forall x in M$. We call such a choice continuous, if for every $x in M$, there exists a neighbourhood $x in U subset M$ and a class $a in H_n(M,M-U)$, such that the inclusion $(M, M-U) to (M,M-x)$, induces a homomorphism $H_n(M,M-x) to H_n(M,M-U)$ which sends $a$ to $[M]_x$. A continuous local orientation for $M$ is called homological orientation.
algebraic-topology manifolds
edited Aug 10 at 17:54
asked Aug 10 at 16:18
user430191
1627
1627
1
I find the explanation here really solid: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientability
â Randall
Aug 10 at 16:24
I have already checked that, I didn't find an answer unfortunately. I can't see the real relation between them.
â user430191
Aug 10 at 16:29
I can't see how the local orientation determines an orientation of M.
â user430191
Aug 10 at 16:31
3
It would be helpful if you included in your question the exact two definitions you would like to compare.
â Tyrone
Aug 10 at 16:36
add a comment |Â
1
I find the explanation here really solid: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientability
â Randall
Aug 10 at 16:24
I have already checked that, I didn't find an answer unfortunately. I can't see the real relation between them.
â user430191
Aug 10 at 16:29
I can't see how the local orientation determines an orientation of M.
â user430191
Aug 10 at 16:31
3
It would be helpful if you included in your question the exact two definitions you would like to compare.
â Tyrone
Aug 10 at 16:36
1
1
I find the explanation here really solid: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientability
â Randall
Aug 10 at 16:24
I find the explanation here really solid: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientability
â Randall
Aug 10 at 16:24
I have already checked that, I didn't find an answer unfortunately. I can't see the real relation between them.
â user430191
Aug 10 at 16:29
I have already checked that, I didn't find an answer unfortunately. I can't see the real relation between them.
â user430191
Aug 10 at 16:29
I can't see how the local orientation determines an orientation of M.
â user430191
Aug 10 at 16:31
I can't see how the local orientation determines an orientation of M.
â user430191
Aug 10 at 16:31
3
3
It would be helpful if you included in your question the exact two definitions you would like to compare.
â Tyrone
Aug 10 at 16:36
It would be helpful if you included in your question the exact two definitions you would like to compare.
â Tyrone
Aug 10 at 16:36
add a comment |Â
1 Answer
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up vote
5
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$2 to 1$
Pick a homological orientation for $M$. Fix a generator of $H_n(Bbb R^n, setminus Bbb R^n setminus 0)$ (equivalently, make sure you know what orientation on $Bbb R^n$ you're using).
For a chart $varphi_alpha: U_alpha to Bbb R^n$ with $varphi_alpha(x) = 0$, note that there is an induced map $(varphi_alpha)_*: H_n(U, U - x) to H_n(Bbb R^n, Bbb R^n setminus 0)$. Because $varphi_alpha$ is a diffeomorphism, $(varphi_alpha)_*$ is an isomorphism. The inclusion map $H_n(U, U - x) to H_n(M, M - x)$ is an isomorphism by the excision theorem.
We say $(U_alpha, varphi_alpha)$ is an oriented chart if the composite $$H_n(M, M - x) xrightarrowi^-1_* H_n(U, U - x) to H_n(Bbb R^n, Bbb R^n setminus 0)$$ sends your chosen generator of the first group to the fixed generator of the last group.
The relevance of the positive Jacobian condition is that a diffeomorphism $f: (Bbb R^n, 0) to (Bbb R^n, 0)$ preserves the generator of $H_n(Bbb R^n, Bbb R^n setminus 0)$ if and only if $det textJac_0(f) > 0.$ In fact, if you have a smooth map $f: Bbb R^n to Bbb R^n$ sending $0$ to $0$, it is homotopic to $textJac_0(f): Bbb R^n to Bbb R^n$, given by setting $f_1-t(x) = fracf(tx)t$ and $f_1(x) = textJac_0(f)(x)$; this is a continuous homotopy of $f$ that sends nonzero points to nonzero points as long as $f$ did the same. (If $f$ did not, restrict to a smaller open set where it did and run the same argument: remember that excision allows us to do this whenever we want.) Now we just need to see the induced maps of linear maps; because $GL_n(Bbb R)$ has exactly two components, determined by their determinant, we just need to check the induced map of two linear maps. The identity induces the identity; a reflection induces $-1$. (Use the long exact sequence of the pair $(D^n, S^n-1)$ and the interpretation of the map on top homology as degree in $S^n-1$.)
Thus the induced map on $H_n(Bbb R^n, Bbb R^n setminus 0)$ is the sign of $det textJac_0 f$. As long as you choose your charts to preserve the homological orientation, your transition maps will always have positive Jacobian determinant.
$1 to 2$
Same recipe as above: this time the rule is that you choose the generator of $H_n(M, M - x)$ using an oriented chart (as opposed to determining which charts are oriented using where the generator goes).
That's a good answer, y'all.
â Randall
Aug 10 at 18:40
Mike thank you very much, it seems to be a good answer indeed. As I said at the comments, my main problem is the $2 to 1$. When you have a smooth manifold $M$, then you already have a maximal chart. Of course, this doesn't mean that you have an orientation. However, picking a homological orientation for $M$ forces us to construct a new maximal chart which is oriented. I can't see how this construction goes. What's the relation with the one we started in the first place?
â user430191
Aug 10 at 19:09
@user430191 You start with a maximal atlas. What I have given you is a recipe to determine which charts in that atlas are "oriented", and thrown out all the ones that aren't. Now the transition maps between these "oriented" charts have positive Jacobian determinant.
â Mike Miller
Aug 10 at 19:11
1
@SteveD Thanks, it took me a second to parse that but it's a good point: I assume at the start you have taken a maximal atlas containing all the charts you can find, no discussion of Jacobians on overlaps. When we pick the "oriented charts" as above, we have formed a new atlas, not maximal in the previous sense (I could just reflect any chart to get a new one), but maximal with respect to adding more charts whose transition maps have positive determinant w/r/t the existing ones: it is a maximal oriented atlas.
â Mike Miller
Aug 10 at 20:35
1
Thanks Mike. It was unclear from the OP's description and the other comments here if they were aware of the slightly difference between a "maximal oriented atlas" and an "oriented maximal atlas" :)
â Steve D
Aug 10 at 20:44
 |Â
show 8 more comments
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
5
down vote
accepted
$2 to 1$
Pick a homological orientation for $M$. Fix a generator of $H_n(Bbb R^n, setminus Bbb R^n setminus 0)$ (equivalently, make sure you know what orientation on $Bbb R^n$ you're using).
For a chart $varphi_alpha: U_alpha to Bbb R^n$ with $varphi_alpha(x) = 0$, note that there is an induced map $(varphi_alpha)_*: H_n(U, U - x) to H_n(Bbb R^n, Bbb R^n setminus 0)$. Because $varphi_alpha$ is a diffeomorphism, $(varphi_alpha)_*$ is an isomorphism. The inclusion map $H_n(U, U - x) to H_n(M, M - x)$ is an isomorphism by the excision theorem.
We say $(U_alpha, varphi_alpha)$ is an oriented chart if the composite $$H_n(M, M - x) xrightarrowi^-1_* H_n(U, U - x) to H_n(Bbb R^n, Bbb R^n setminus 0)$$ sends your chosen generator of the first group to the fixed generator of the last group.
The relevance of the positive Jacobian condition is that a diffeomorphism $f: (Bbb R^n, 0) to (Bbb R^n, 0)$ preserves the generator of $H_n(Bbb R^n, Bbb R^n setminus 0)$ if and only if $det textJac_0(f) > 0.$ In fact, if you have a smooth map $f: Bbb R^n to Bbb R^n$ sending $0$ to $0$, it is homotopic to $textJac_0(f): Bbb R^n to Bbb R^n$, given by setting $f_1-t(x) = fracf(tx)t$ and $f_1(x) = textJac_0(f)(x)$; this is a continuous homotopy of $f$ that sends nonzero points to nonzero points as long as $f$ did the same. (If $f$ did not, restrict to a smaller open set where it did and run the same argument: remember that excision allows us to do this whenever we want.) Now we just need to see the induced maps of linear maps; because $GL_n(Bbb R)$ has exactly two components, determined by their determinant, we just need to check the induced map of two linear maps. The identity induces the identity; a reflection induces $-1$. (Use the long exact sequence of the pair $(D^n, S^n-1)$ and the interpretation of the map on top homology as degree in $S^n-1$.)
Thus the induced map on $H_n(Bbb R^n, Bbb R^n setminus 0)$ is the sign of $det textJac_0 f$. As long as you choose your charts to preserve the homological orientation, your transition maps will always have positive Jacobian determinant.
$1 to 2$
Same recipe as above: this time the rule is that you choose the generator of $H_n(M, M - x)$ using an oriented chart (as opposed to determining which charts are oriented using where the generator goes).
That's a good answer, y'all.
â Randall
Aug 10 at 18:40
Mike thank you very much, it seems to be a good answer indeed. As I said at the comments, my main problem is the $2 to 1$. When you have a smooth manifold $M$, then you already have a maximal chart. Of course, this doesn't mean that you have an orientation. However, picking a homological orientation for $M$ forces us to construct a new maximal chart which is oriented. I can't see how this construction goes. What's the relation with the one we started in the first place?
â user430191
Aug 10 at 19:09
@user430191 You start with a maximal atlas. What I have given you is a recipe to determine which charts in that atlas are "oriented", and thrown out all the ones that aren't. Now the transition maps between these "oriented" charts have positive Jacobian determinant.
â Mike Miller
Aug 10 at 19:11
1
@SteveD Thanks, it took me a second to parse that but it's a good point: I assume at the start you have taken a maximal atlas containing all the charts you can find, no discussion of Jacobians on overlaps. When we pick the "oriented charts" as above, we have formed a new atlas, not maximal in the previous sense (I could just reflect any chart to get a new one), but maximal with respect to adding more charts whose transition maps have positive determinant w/r/t the existing ones: it is a maximal oriented atlas.
â Mike Miller
Aug 10 at 20:35
1
Thanks Mike. It was unclear from the OP's description and the other comments here if they were aware of the slightly difference between a "maximal oriented atlas" and an "oriented maximal atlas" :)
â Steve D
Aug 10 at 20:44
 |Â
show 8 more comments
up vote
5
down vote
accepted
$2 to 1$
Pick a homological orientation for $M$. Fix a generator of $H_n(Bbb R^n, setminus Bbb R^n setminus 0)$ (equivalently, make sure you know what orientation on $Bbb R^n$ you're using).
For a chart $varphi_alpha: U_alpha to Bbb R^n$ with $varphi_alpha(x) = 0$, note that there is an induced map $(varphi_alpha)_*: H_n(U, U - x) to H_n(Bbb R^n, Bbb R^n setminus 0)$. Because $varphi_alpha$ is a diffeomorphism, $(varphi_alpha)_*$ is an isomorphism. The inclusion map $H_n(U, U - x) to H_n(M, M - x)$ is an isomorphism by the excision theorem.
We say $(U_alpha, varphi_alpha)$ is an oriented chart if the composite $$H_n(M, M - x) xrightarrowi^-1_* H_n(U, U - x) to H_n(Bbb R^n, Bbb R^n setminus 0)$$ sends your chosen generator of the first group to the fixed generator of the last group.
The relevance of the positive Jacobian condition is that a diffeomorphism $f: (Bbb R^n, 0) to (Bbb R^n, 0)$ preserves the generator of $H_n(Bbb R^n, Bbb R^n setminus 0)$ if and only if $det textJac_0(f) > 0.$ In fact, if you have a smooth map $f: Bbb R^n to Bbb R^n$ sending $0$ to $0$, it is homotopic to $textJac_0(f): Bbb R^n to Bbb R^n$, given by setting $f_1-t(x) = fracf(tx)t$ and $f_1(x) = textJac_0(f)(x)$; this is a continuous homotopy of $f$ that sends nonzero points to nonzero points as long as $f$ did the same. (If $f$ did not, restrict to a smaller open set where it did and run the same argument: remember that excision allows us to do this whenever we want.) Now we just need to see the induced maps of linear maps; because $GL_n(Bbb R)$ has exactly two components, determined by their determinant, we just need to check the induced map of two linear maps. The identity induces the identity; a reflection induces $-1$. (Use the long exact sequence of the pair $(D^n, S^n-1)$ and the interpretation of the map on top homology as degree in $S^n-1$.)
Thus the induced map on $H_n(Bbb R^n, Bbb R^n setminus 0)$ is the sign of $det textJac_0 f$. As long as you choose your charts to preserve the homological orientation, your transition maps will always have positive Jacobian determinant.
$1 to 2$
Same recipe as above: this time the rule is that you choose the generator of $H_n(M, M - x)$ using an oriented chart (as opposed to determining which charts are oriented using where the generator goes).
That's a good answer, y'all.
â Randall
Aug 10 at 18:40
Mike thank you very much, it seems to be a good answer indeed. As I said at the comments, my main problem is the $2 to 1$. When you have a smooth manifold $M$, then you already have a maximal chart. Of course, this doesn't mean that you have an orientation. However, picking a homological orientation for $M$ forces us to construct a new maximal chart which is oriented. I can't see how this construction goes. What's the relation with the one we started in the first place?
â user430191
Aug 10 at 19:09
@user430191 You start with a maximal atlas. What I have given you is a recipe to determine which charts in that atlas are "oriented", and thrown out all the ones that aren't. Now the transition maps between these "oriented" charts have positive Jacobian determinant.
â Mike Miller
Aug 10 at 19:11
1
@SteveD Thanks, it took me a second to parse that but it's a good point: I assume at the start you have taken a maximal atlas containing all the charts you can find, no discussion of Jacobians on overlaps. When we pick the "oriented charts" as above, we have formed a new atlas, not maximal in the previous sense (I could just reflect any chart to get a new one), but maximal with respect to adding more charts whose transition maps have positive determinant w/r/t the existing ones: it is a maximal oriented atlas.
â Mike Miller
Aug 10 at 20:35
1
Thanks Mike. It was unclear from the OP's description and the other comments here if they were aware of the slightly difference between a "maximal oriented atlas" and an "oriented maximal atlas" :)
â Steve D
Aug 10 at 20:44
 |Â
show 8 more comments
up vote
5
down vote
accepted
up vote
5
down vote
accepted
$2 to 1$
Pick a homological orientation for $M$. Fix a generator of $H_n(Bbb R^n, setminus Bbb R^n setminus 0)$ (equivalently, make sure you know what orientation on $Bbb R^n$ you're using).
For a chart $varphi_alpha: U_alpha to Bbb R^n$ with $varphi_alpha(x) = 0$, note that there is an induced map $(varphi_alpha)_*: H_n(U, U - x) to H_n(Bbb R^n, Bbb R^n setminus 0)$. Because $varphi_alpha$ is a diffeomorphism, $(varphi_alpha)_*$ is an isomorphism. The inclusion map $H_n(U, U - x) to H_n(M, M - x)$ is an isomorphism by the excision theorem.
We say $(U_alpha, varphi_alpha)$ is an oriented chart if the composite $$H_n(M, M - x) xrightarrowi^-1_* H_n(U, U - x) to H_n(Bbb R^n, Bbb R^n setminus 0)$$ sends your chosen generator of the first group to the fixed generator of the last group.
The relevance of the positive Jacobian condition is that a diffeomorphism $f: (Bbb R^n, 0) to (Bbb R^n, 0)$ preserves the generator of $H_n(Bbb R^n, Bbb R^n setminus 0)$ if and only if $det textJac_0(f) > 0.$ In fact, if you have a smooth map $f: Bbb R^n to Bbb R^n$ sending $0$ to $0$, it is homotopic to $textJac_0(f): Bbb R^n to Bbb R^n$, given by setting $f_1-t(x) = fracf(tx)t$ and $f_1(x) = textJac_0(f)(x)$; this is a continuous homotopy of $f$ that sends nonzero points to nonzero points as long as $f$ did the same. (If $f$ did not, restrict to a smaller open set where it did and run the same argument: remember that excision allows us to do this whenever we want.) Now we just need to see the induced maps of linear maps; because $GL_n(Bbb R)$ has exactly two components, determined by their determinant, we just need to check the induced map of two linear maps. The identity induces the identity; a reflection induces $-1$. (Use the long exact sequence of the pair $(D^n, S^n-1)$ and the interpretation of the map on top homology as degree in $S^n-1$.)
Thus the induced map on $H_n(Bbb R^n, Bbb R^n setminus 0)$ is the sign of $det textJac_0 f$. As long as you choose your charts to preserve the homological orientation, your transition maps will always have positive Jacobian determinant.
$1 to 2$
Same recipe as above: this time the rule is that you choose the generator of $H_n(M, M - x)$ using an oriented chart (as opposed to determining which charts are oriented using where the generator goes).
$2 to 1$
Pick a homological orientation for $M$. Fix a generator of $H_n(Bbb R^n, setminus Bbb R^n setminus 0)$ (equivalently, make sure you know what orientation on $Bbb R^n$ you're using).
For a chart $varphi_alpha: U_alpha to Bbb R^n$ with $varphi_alpha(x) = 0$, note that there is an induced map $(varphi_alpha)_*: H_n(U, U - x) to H_n(Bbb R^n, Bbb R^n setminus 0)$. Because $varphi_alpha$ is a diffeomorphism, $(varphi_alpha)_*$ is an isomorphism. The inclusion map $H_n(U, U - x) to H_n(M, M - x)$ is an isomorphism by the excision theorem.
We say $(U_alpha, varphi_alpha)$ is an oriented chart if the composite $$H_n(M, M - x) xrightarrowi^-1_* H_n(U, U - x) to H_n(Bbb R^n, Bbb R^n setminus 0)$$ sends your chosen generator of the first group to the fixed generator of the last group.
The relevance of the positive Jacobian condition is that a diffeomorphism $f: (Bbb R^n, 0) to (Bbb R^n, 0)$ preserves the generator of $H_n(Bbb R^n, Bbb R^n setminus 0)$ if and only if $det textJac_0(f) > 0.$ In fact, if you have a smooth map $f: Bbb R^n to Bbb R^n$ sending $0$ to $0$, it is homotopic to $textJac_0(f): Bbb R^n to Bbb R^n$, given by setting $f_1-t(x) = fracf(tx)t$ and $f_1(x) = textJac_0(f)(x)$; this is a continuous homotopy of $f$ that sends nonzero points to nonzero points as long as $f$ did the same. (If $f$ did not, restrict to a smaller open set where it did and run the same argument: remember that excision allows us to do this whenever we want.) Now we just need to see the induced maps of linear maps; because $GL_n(Bbb R)$ has exactly two components, determined by their determinant, we just need to check the induced map of two linear maps. The identity induces the identity; a reflection induces $-1$. (Use the long exact sequence of the pair $(D^n, S^n-1)$ and the interpretation of the map on top homology as degree in $S^n-1$.)
Thus the induced map on $H_n(Bbb R^n, Bbb R^n setminus 0)$ is the sign of $det textJac_0 f$. As long as you choose your charts to preserve the homological orientation, your transition maps will always have positive Jacobian determinant.
$1 to 2$
Same recipe as above: this time the rule is that you choose the generator of $H_n(M, M - x)$ using an oriented chart (as opposed to determining which charts are oriented using where the generator goes).
answered Aug 10 at 18:31
Mike Miller
33.9k364128
33.9k364128
That's a good answer, y'all.
â Randall
Aug 10 at 18:40
Mike thank you very much, it seems to be a good answer indeed. As I said at the comments, my main problem is the $2 to 1$. When you have a smooth manifold $M$, then you already have a maximal chart. Of course, this doesn't mean that you have an orientation. However, picking a homological orientation for $M$ forces us to construct a new maximal chart which is oriented. I can't see how this construction goes. What's the relation with the one we started in the first place?
â user430191
Aug 10 at 19:09
@user430191 You start with a maximal atlas. What I have given you is a recipe to determine which charts in that atlas are "oriented", and thrown out all the ones that aren't. Now the transition maps between these "oriented" charts have positive Jacobian determinant.
â Mike Miller
Aug 10 at 19:11
1
@SteveD Thanks, it took me a second to parse that but it's a good point: I assume at the start you have taken a maximal atlas containing all the charts you can find, no discussion of Jacobians on overlaps. When we pick the "oriented charts" as above, we have formed a new atlas, not maximal in the previous sense (I could just reflect any chart to get a new one), but maximal with respect to adding more charts whose transition maps have positive determinant w/r/t the existing ones: it is a maximal oriented atlas.
â Mike Miller
Aug 10 at 20:35
1
Thanks Mike. It was unclear from the OP's description and the other comments here if they were aware of the slightly difference between a "maximal oriented atlas" and an "oriented maximal atlas" :)
â Steve D
Aug 10 at 20:44
 |Â
show 8 more comments
That's a good answer, y'all.
â Randall
Aug 10 at 18:40
Mike thank you very much, it seems to be a good answer indeed. As I said at the comments, my main problem is the $2 to 1$. When you have a smooth manifold $M$, then you already have a maximal chart. Of course, this doesn't mean that you have an orientation. However, picking a homological orientation for $M$ forces us to construct a new maximal chart which is oriented. I can't see how this construction goes. What's the relation with the one we started in the first place?
â user430191
Aug 10 at 19:09
@user430191 You start with a maximal atlas. What I have given you is a recipe to determine which charts in that atlas are "oriented", and thrown out all the ones that aren't. Now the transition maps between these "oriented" charts have positive Jacobian determinant.
â Mike Miller
Aug 10 at 19:11
1
@SteveD Thanks, it took me a second to parse that but it's a good point: I assume at the start you have taken a maximal atlas containing all the charts you can find, no discussion of Jacobians on overlaps. When we pick the "oriented charts" as above, we have formed a new atlas, not maximal in the previous sense (I could just reflect any chart to get a new one), but maximal with respect to adding more charts whose transition maps have positive determinant w/r/t the existing ones: it is a maximal oriented atlas.
â Mike Miller
Aug 10 at 20:35
1
Thanks Mike. It was unclear from the OP's description and the other comments here if they were aware of the slightly difference between a "maximal oriented atlas" and an "oriented maximal atlas" :)
â Steve D
Aug 10 at 20:44
That's a good answer, y'all.
â Randall
Aug 10 at 18:40
That's a good answer, y'all.
â Randall
Aug 10 at 18:40
Mike thank you very much, it seems to be a good answer indeed. As I said at the comments, my main problem is the $2 to 1$. When you have a smooth manifold $M$, then you already have a maximal chart. Of course, this doesn't mean that you have an orientation. However, picking a homological orientation for $M$ forces us to construct a new maximal chart which is oriented. I can't see how this construction goes. What's the relation with the one we started in the first place?
â user430191
Aug 10 at 19:09
Mike thank you very much, it seems to be a good answer indeed. As I said at the comments, my main problem is the $2 to 1$. When you have a smooth manifold $M$, then you already have a maximal chart. Of course, this doesn't mean that you have an orientation. However, picking a homological orientation for $M$ forces us to construct a new maximal chart which is oriented. I can't see how this construction goes. What's the relation with the one we started in the first place?
â user430191
Aug 10 at 19:09
@user430191 You start with a maximal atlas. What I have given you is a recipe to determine which charts in that atlas are "oriented", and thrown out all the ones that aren't. Now the transition maps between these "oriented" charts have positive Jacobian determinant.
â Mike Miller
Aug 10 at 19:11
@user430191 You start with a maximal atlas. What I have given you is a recipe to determine which charts in that atlas are "oriented", and thrown out all the ones that aren't. Now the transition maps between these "oriented" charts have positive Jacobian determinant.
â Mike Miller
Aug 10 at 19:11
1
1
@SteveD Thanks, it took me a second to parse that but it's a good point: I assume at the start you have taken a maximal atlas containing all the charts you can find, no discussion of Jacobians on overlaps. When we pick the "oriented charts" as above, we have formed a new atlas, not maximal in the previous sense (I could just reflect any chart to get a new one), but maximal with respect to adding more charts whose transition maps have positive determinant w/r/t the existing ones: it is a maximal oriented atlas.
â Mike Miller
Aug 10 at 20:35
@SteveD Thanks, it took me a second to parse that but it's a good point: I assume at the start you have taken a maximal atlas containing all the charts you can find, no discussion of Jacobians on overlaps. When we pick the "oriented charts" as above, we have formed a new atlas, not maximal in the previous sense (I could just reflect any chart to get a new one), but maximal with respect to adding more charts whose transition maps have positive determinant w/r/t the existing ones: it is a maximal oriented atlas.
â Mike Miller
Aug 10 at 20:35
1
1
Thanks Mike. It was unclear from the OP's description and the other comments here if they were aware of the slightly difference between a "maximal oriented atlas" and an "oriented maximal atlas" :)
â Steve D
Aug 10 at 20:44
Thanks Mike. It was unclear from the OP's description and the other comments here if they were aware of the slightly difference between a "maximal oriented atlas" and an "oriented maximal atlas" :)
â Steve D
Aug 10 at 20:44
 |Â
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1
I find the explanation here really solid: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientability
â Randall
Aug 10 at 16:24
I have already checked that, I didn't find an answer unfortunately. I can't see the real relation between them.
â user430191
Aug 10 at 16:29
I can't see how the local orientation determines an orientation of M.
â user430191
Aug 10 at 16:31
3
It would be helpful if you included in your question the exact two definitions you would like to compare.
â Tyrone
Aug 10 at 16:36