Shadow terminator plane in a bowl

The name of the pictureThe name of the pictureThe name of the pictureClash Royale CLAN TAG#URR8PPP











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When sunlight casts a shadow on an axi-symmetric inside surface we have a $ plane$ determined by rim boundary $B$ projection $E$ and mid centers $C$ on rim that divides illuminated (white) and dark portions (gray is shadow of the bowl itself below $BC$ and yellow is shadow from semicircle radius $CB$) as shown.



One can satisfy this with a parabolic dish of meridian



$$ z = k,r^2$$



Shadow of Dish3D view Shadow



How can we formulate this in general to include all meridians producing such shadow partition by a plane ?







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  • I'm sorry, but I don't understand the question. In particular, the upper shaded triangle is confusing; only the sector below is in shade. I also don't see the relevance of the center $C$. If I had to compute the shadow partition, I'd just tilt the dish to put the light on the $mathbfr$ plane (it's easier using a Cartesian coordinate system). Works for both point light sources, as well as directional light sources far enough away to consider all light rays parallel.
    – Nominal Animal
    Aug 29 at 11:06











  • Portion of shade by dish rim $BCE$ separately shown in yellow
    – Narasimham
    Aug 29 at 16:13











  • One can satisfy what with a parabolic dish?
    – Rahul
    Aug 29 at 17:38










  • @Narasimham: I think I now understand. If you can replace the illustration with a 3D one, I'm sure that would help a lot. I also suspect you could replace meridian with curve (as in the curve that shapes the dish, as a surface of revolution).
    – Nominal Animal
    Aug 29 at 18:17










  • sorry @Rahul. The dark/ bright region bifurcator is a plane containing EC parallel to $y$ axis if what is marked as $r$ in the diagram is taken to be the $x$ axis..
    – Narasimham
    Aug 29 at 21:25














up vote
0
down vote

favorite












When sunlight casts a shadow on an axi-symmetric inside surface we have a $ plane$ determined by rim boundary $B$ projection $E$ and mid centers $C$ on rim that divides illuminated (white) and dark portions (gray is shadow of the bowl itself below $BC$ and yellow is shadow from semicircle radius $CB$) as shown.



One can satisfy this with a parabolic dish of meridian



$$ z = k,r^2$$



Shadow of Dish3D view Shadow



How can we formulate this in general to include all meridians producing such shadow partition by a plane ?







share|cite|improve this question






















  • I'm sorry, but I don't understand the question. In particular, the upper shaded triangle is confusing; only the sector below is in shade. I also don't see the relevance of the center $C$. If I had to compute the shadow partition, I'd just tilt the dish to put the light on the $mathbfr$ plane (it's easier using a Cartesian coordinate system). Works for both point light sources, as well as directional light sources far enough away to consider all light rays parallel.
    – Nominal Animal
    Aug 29 at 11:06











  • Portion of shade by dish rim $BCE$ separately shown in yellow
    – Narasimham
    Aug 29 at 16:13











  • One can satisfy what with a parabolic dish?
    – Rahul
    Aug 29 at 17:38










  • @Narasimham: I think I now understand. If you can replace the illustration with a 3D one, I'm sure that would help a lot. I also suspect you could replace meridian with curve (as in the curve that shapes the dish, as a surface of revolution).
    – Nominal Animal
    Aug 29 at 18:17










  • sorry @Rahul. The dark/ bright region bifurcator is a plane containing EC parallel to $y$ axis if what is marked as $r$ in the diagram is taken to be the $x$ axis..
    – Narasimham
    Aug 29 at 21:25












up vote
0
down vote

favorite









up vote
0
down vote

favorite











When sunlight casts a shadow on an axi-symmetric inside surface we have a $ plane$ determined by rim boundary $B$ projection $E$ and mid centers $C$ on rim that divides illuminated (white) and dark portions (gray is shadow of the bowl itself below $BC$ and yellow is shadow from semicircle radius $CB$) as shown.



One can satisfy this with a parabolic dish of meridian



$$ z = k,r^2$$



Shadow of Dish3D view Shadow



How can we formulate this in general to include all meridians producing such shadow partition by a plane ?







share|cite|improve this question














When sunlight casts a shadow on an axi-symmetric inside surface we have a $ plane$ determined by rim boundary $B$ projection $E$ and mid centers $C$ on rim that divides illuminated (white) and dark portions (gray is shadow of the bowl itself below $BC$ and yellow is shadow from semicircle radius $CB$) as shown.



One can satisfy this with a parabolic dish of meridian



$$ z = k,r^2$$



Shadow of Dish3D view Shadow



How can we formulate this in general to include all meridians producing such shadow partition by a plane ?









share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Aug 31 at 0:44

























asked Aug 29 at 4:28









Narasimham

20.3k52057




20.3k52057











  • I'm sorry, but I don't understand the question. In particular, the upper shaded triangle is confusing; only the sector below is in shade. I also don't see the relevance of the center $C$. If I had to compute the shadow partition, I'd just tilt the dish to put the light on the $mathbfr$ plane (it's easier using a Cartesian coordinate system). Works for both point light sources, as well as directional light sources far enough away to consider all light rays parallel.
    – Nominal Animal
    Aug 29 at 11:06











  • Portion of shade by dish rim $BCE$ separately shown in yellow
    – Narasimham
    Aug 29 at 16:13











  • One can satisfy what with a parabolic dish?
    – Rahul
    Aug 29 at 17:38










  • @Narasimham: I think I now understand. If you can replace the illustration with a 3D one, I'm sure that would help a lot. I also suspect you could replace meridian with curve (as in the curve that shapes the dish, as a surface of revolution).
    – Nominal Animal
    Aug 29 at 18:17










  • sorry @Rahul. The dark/ bright region bifurcator is a plane containing EC parallel to $y$ axis if what is marked as $r$ in the diagram is taken to be the $x$ axis..
    – Narasimham
    Aug 29 at 21:25
















  • I'm sorry, but I don't understand the question. In particular, the upper shaded triangle is confusing; only the sector below is in shade. I also don't see the relevance of the center $C$. If I had to compute the shadow partition, I'd just tilt the dish to put the light on the $mathbfr$ plane (it's easier using a Cartesian coordinate system). Works for both point light sources, as well as directional light sources far enough away to consider all light rays parallel.
    – Nominal Animal
    Aug 29 at 11:06











  • Portion of shade by dish rim $BCE$ separately shown in yellow
    – Narasimham
    Aug 29 at 16:13











  • One can satisfy what with a parabolic dish?
    – Rahul
    Aug 29 at 17:38










  • @Narasimham: I think I now understand. If you can replace the illustration with a 3D one, I'm sure that would help a lot. I also suspect you could replace meridian with curve (as in the curve that shapes the dish, as a surface of revolution).
    – Nominal Animal
    Aug 29 at 18:17










  • sorry @Rahul. The dark/ bright region bifurcator is a plane containing EC parallel to $y$ axis if what is marked as $r$ in the diagram is taken to be the $x$ axis..
    – Narasimham
    Aug 29 at 21:25















I'm sorry, but I don't understand the question. In particular, the upper shaded triangle is confusing; only the sector below is in shade. I also don't see the relevance of the center $C$. If I had to compute the shadow partition, I'd just tilt the dish to put the light on the $mathbfr$ plane (it's easier using a Cartesian coordinate system). Works for both point light sources, as well as directional light sources far enough away to consider all light rays parallel.
– Nominal Animal
Aug 29 at 11:06





I'm sorry, but I don't understand the question. In particular, the upper shaded triangle is confusing; only the sector below is in shade. I also don't see the relevance of the center $C$. If I had to compute the shadow partition, I'd just tilt the dish to put the light on the $mathbfr$ plane (it's easier using a Cartesian coordinate system). Works for both point light sources, as well as directional light sources far enough away to consider all light rays parallel.
– Nominal Animal
Aug 29 at 11:06













Portion of shade by dish rim $BCE$ separately shown in yellow
– Narasimham
Aug 29 at 16:13





Portion of shade by dish rim $BCE$ separately shown in yellow
– Narasimham
Aug 29 at 16:13













One can satisfy what with a parabolic dish?
– Rahul
Aug 29 at 17:38




One can satisfy what with a parabolic dish?
– Rahul
Aug 29 at 17:38












@Narasimham: I think I now understand. If you can replace the illustration with a 3D one, I'm sure that would help a lot. I also suspect you could replace meridian with curve (as in the curve that shapes the dish, as a surface of revolution).
– Nominal Animal
Aug 29 at 18:17




@Narasimham: I think I now understand. If you can replace the illustration with a 3D one, I'm sure that would help a lot. I also suspect you could replace meridian with curve (as in the curve that shapes the dish, as a surface of revolution).
– Nominal Animal
Aug 29 at 18:17












sorry @Rahul. The dark/ bright region bifurcator is a plane containing EC parallel to $y$ axis if what is marked as $r$ in the diagram is taken to be the $x$ axis..
– Narasimham
Aug 29 at 21:25




sorry @Rahul. The dark/ bright region bifurcator is a plane containing EC parallel to $y$ axis if what is marked as $r$ in the diagram is taken to be the $x$ axis..
– Narasimham
Aug 29 at 21:25










1 Answer
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This is not an answer, but a report of my findings. I am hoping that someone better at math can use these to actually answer the question.




Let's use a coordinate system where the base of the dish is at origin, the height of the dish is $h$, the radius of the rim is $r$. Let all light rays be parallel, with direction vector $(-1 , 0 , -m)$, $0 lt m in mathbbR$. The light rays on the terminator cast by the rim of the dish fulfill
$$z_textterminator(x, y) = m left(x - sqrtr^2 - y^2 right) + h tag1labelNA1$$
Note that $eqrefNA1$ applies to all dishes that have a circular rim of radius $r$ at $z = h$.




A parabolic dish with base at origin, height $h$, and rim radius $r$, can be defined by
$$z_textdish(x, y) = frachr^2 left( x^2 + y^2 right) tag2labelNA2$$
The light rays on the terminator cast by the dish rim intersect with the inside of the bowl when $0 le z_textterminator(x, y) = z_textdish(x, y) lt h$. Solving that for $x$ yields
$$x_textterminator(y) = fracm r^2 pm leftlvert m r^2 - 2 h sqrtr^2 - y^2 rightrvert2 h tag3labelNA3$$
To locate the $y$ coordinate where the terminator intersects the rim, we substitute $eqrefNA3$ into $z_textdish(x,y) = h$, and solve for $y$. The result is
$$y_textrim = pm r sqrt1 - fracm^2 r^24 h^2 tag4alabelNA4a$$
From $z_textterminator(x, y_textrim) = h$ we can solve the corresponding $x$ coordinate:
$$x_textrim = fracm r^22 h tag4blabelNA4b$$
and obviously $z_textrim = h$.



Note that $(x_textrim, y_textrim, z_textrim)$ is not the point $C$ in OP's diagram; it is to the right of it. Here is an orthographic projection of $h = 0.5$, $r = 1$, $m = 0.2$ I raytraced in POVRay: example dish
Note that light comes from right, and the dish is an indentation in the cylinder.



If the slope of the light is small enough, $m lt frac2 hr$, the absolute value term in $eqrefNA3$ is negative or zero for $-lvert y_textrim rvert lt y lt lvert y_textrim rvert$. Then,
$$leftlbracebeginaligned
x_textterminator(y) &= fracm r^2h - sqrtr^2 - y^2 \
y_textterminator(y) &= y \
z_textterminator(y) &= fracm^2 r^2h - 2 m sqrtr^2 - y^2 + h \
endalignedright., quad lvert y rvert lt lvert y_textrim rvert, ; m lt frac2 hr tag4clabelNA4c$$
where $z_textterminator(y)$ was obtained by substituting $x_textterminator(y)$ into $eqrefNA1$ or $eqrefNA2$ (both yield the same result).



We can test for planarity (via torsion), using the first, second, and third derivatives. The curve is planar if and only if
$$det left [ beginmatrix
fractsqrtr^2 - t^2 & fracr^2(r^2 - t^2)^3/2 & frac3 t r^2(r^2 - t^2)^5/2 \
1 & 0 & 0 \
frac2 m tsqrtr^2 - t^2 & frac2 m r^2(r^2 - t^2)^3/2 & frac6 m t r^2(r^2 - t^2)^5/2 \
endmatrix right ] = 0$$
This is indeed true for the parabolic dish.




Unfortunately, I don't see how to generalize this to other dish profiles, not even to
$$z_textdish = frachr^2 kleft( x^2 + y^2 right)^k$$
except for $k = 1$ (the above parabolic dish case), and maybe $k = 1/2$. The issue is solving $z_textterminator(x,y) = z_textdish(x,y)$ for $x$ (to get $x_textterminator(y)$).




Let's consider a right circular cylinder with radius $r$, axis along $z$ axis, and top at $z = h$. In this case,
$$x_textcylinder(y) = pmsqrtr^2 - y^2$$
and solving $eqrefNA1$ for $x$ yields
$$x_textterminator(y, z) = sqrtr^2 - y^2 + fracz - hm$$
Solving $x_textcylinder(y) = x_textterminator(y, z)$ for $z$ yields
$$z_textterminator(y) = h - 2 m sqrtr^2 - y^2$$
(and $z_textterminator(y) = h$, but that is on the rim).
i.e. the terminator curve is
$$leftlbracebeginaligned
x_textterminator(t) &= -sqrtr^2 - t^2 \
y_textterminator(t) &= t \
z_textterminator(t) &= h - 2 m sqrtr^2 - t^2 \
endalignedright .$$
where $x_textterminator(t)$ was obtained by solving $z_textterminator(y) = z_textterminator(x, y)$ and solving for $x$.
The torsion test (determinant of the matrix formed by the first three derivatives of the terminator curve) is again
$$det left [ beginmatrix
fractsqrtr^2 - t^2 & fracr^2(r^2 - t^2)^3/2 & frac3 t r^2(r^2 - t^2)^5/2 \
1 & 0 & 0 \
frac2 m tsqrtr^2 - t^2 & frac2 m r^2(r^2 - t^2)^3/2 & frac6 m t r^2(r^2 - t^2)^5/2 \
endmatrix right ] = 0$$
Its determinant is (still!) zero, so the terminator cast into a right circular cylinder by a flat rim perpendicular to the axis of the cylinder, is also planar.



Right circular cylinder case






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  • What coordinates of $C$ are calculated in each case?
    – Narasimham
    Aug 31 at 4:10











  • @Narasimham: As defined in your question, $C_i = (0, pm r, h)$ in this coordinate system. The actual point where the terminator meets the rim are those points for the right circular cylinder, but $left(fracm r^22 h, pm r sqrt1 - fracm^2 r^24 h^2, h right)$ for the parabolic dish. (In both images, $x$ increases right, $z$ up, and $y$ in and up.)
    – Nominal Animal
    Aug 31 at 15:15











  • @Narasimham: Consider a (reverse path of a) light ray starting from that point: $$leftlbracebeginalignedx(t) &= fracm r^22 h + t \ y(t) &= r sqrt1 - fracm^2 r^24 h^2 \ z(t) &= h + m t endalignedright.$$Substitute into the dish equation, $$h left ( x^2 + y^2 right ) - r^2 z = 0$$ and you'll find the only solution is $t = 0$. Adding $epsilon$ to $x(t)$, $y(t)$, or $z(t)$ lets you explore the region near that point. Although I am often wrong, $left(fracm r^22 h, pm r sqrt1 - fracm^2 r^24 h^2, hright)$ is where the terminator meets the rim of the dish.
    – Nominal Animal
    Sep 1 at 17:01











  • (For a parabolic dish of height $h$ and radius $r$, with center of base at origin, and rim at $z = h$, obviously.)
    – Nominal Animal
    Sep 1 at 17:11










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1 Answer
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1 Answer
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active

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active

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active

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up vote
0
down vote













This is not an answer, but a report of my findings. I am hoping that someone better at math can use these to actually answer the question.




Let's use a coordinate system where the base of the dish is at origin, the height of the dish is $h$, the radius of the rim is $r$. Let all light rays be parallel, with direction vector $(-1 , 0 , -m)$, $0 lt m in mathbbR$. The light rays on the terminator cast by the rim of the dish fulfill
$$z_textterminator(x, y) = m left(x - sqrtr^2 - y^2 right) + h tag1labelNA1$$
Note that $eqrefNA1$ applies to all dishes that have a circular rim of radius $r$ at $z = h$.




A parabolic dish with base at origin, height $h$, and rim radius $r$, can be defined by
$$z_textdish(x, y) = frachr^2 left( x^2 + y^2 right) tag2labelNA2$$
The light rays on the terminator cast by the dish rim intersect with the inside of the bowl when $0 le z_textterminator(x, y) = z_textdish(x, y) lt h$. Solving that for $x$ yields
$$x_textterminator(y) = fracm r^2 pm leftlvert m r^2 - 2 h sqrtr^2 - y^2 rightrvert2 h tag3labelNA3$$
To locate the $y$ coordinate where the terminator intersects the rim, we substitute $eqrefNA3$ into $z_textdish(x,y) = h$, and solve for $y$. The result is
$$y_textrim = pm r sqrt1 - fracm^2 r^24 h^2 tag4alabelNA4a$$
From $z_textterminator(x, y_textrim) = h$ we can solve the corresponding $x$ coordinate:
$$x_textrim = fracm r^22 h tag4blabelNA4b$$
and obviously $z_textrim = h$.



Note that $(x_textrim, y_textrim, z_textrim)$ is not the point $C$ in OP's diagram; it is to the right of it. Here is an orthographic projection of $h = 0.5$, $r = 1$, $m = 0.2$ I raytraced in POVRay: example dish
Note that light comes from right, and the dish is an indentation in the cylinder.



If the slope of the light is small enough, $m lt frac2 hr$, the absolute value term in $eqrefNA3$ is negative or zero for $-lvert y_textrim rvert lt y lt lvert y_textrim rvert$. Then,
$$leftlbracebeginaligned
x_textterminator(y) &= fracm r^2h - sqrtr^2 - y^2 \
y_textterminator(y) &= y \
z_textterminator(y) &= fracm^2 r^2h - 2 m sqrtr^2 - y^2 + h \
endalignedright., quad lvert y rvert lt lvert y_textrim rvert, ; m lt frac2 hr tag4clabelNA4c$$
where $z_textterminator(y)$ was obtained by substituting $x_textterminator(y)$ into $eqrefNA1$ or $eqrefNA2$ (both yield the same result).



We can test for planarity (via torsion), using the first, second, and third derivatives. The curve is planar if and only if
$$det left [ beginmatrix
fractsqrtr^2 - t^2 & fracr^2(r^2 - t^2)^3/2 & frac3 t r^2(r^2 - t^2)^5/2 \
1 & 0 & 0 \
frac2 m tsqrtr^2 - t^2 & frac2 m r^2(r^2 - t^2)^3/2 & frac6 m t r^2(r^2 - t^2)^5/2 \
endmatrix right ] = 0$$
This is indeed true for the parabolic dish.




Unfortunately, I don't see how to generalize this to other dish profiles, not even to
$$z_textdish = frachr^2 kleft( x^2 + y^2 right)^k$$
except for $k = 1$ (the above parabolic dish case), and maybe $k = 1/2$. The issue is solving $z_textterminator(x,y) = z_textdish(x,y)$ for $x$ (to get $x_textterminator(y)$).




Let's consider a right circular cylinder with radius $r$, axis along $z$ axis, and top at $z = h$. In this case,
$$x_textcylinder(y) = pmsqrtr^2 - y^2$$
and solving $eqrefNA1$ for $x$ yields
$$x_textterminator(y, z) = sqrtr^2 - y^2 + fracz - hm$$
Solving $x_textcylinder(y) = x_textterminator(y, z)$ for $z$ yields
$$z_textterminator(y) = h - 2 m sqrtr^2 - y^2$$
(and $z_textterminator(y) = h$, but that is on the rim).
i.e. the terminator curve is
$$leftlbracebeginaligned
x_textterminator(t) &= -sqrtr^2 - t^2 \
y_textterminator(t) &= t \
z_textterminator(t) &= h - 2 m sqrtr^2 - t^2 \
endalignedright .$$
where $x_textterminator(t)$ was obtained by solving $z_textterminator(y) = z_textterminator(x, y)$ and solving for $x$.
The torsion test (determinant of the matrix formed by the first three derivatives of the terminator curve) is again
$$det left [ beginmatrix
fractsqrtr^2 - t^2 & fracr^2(r^2 - t^2)^3/2 & frac3 t r^2(r^2 - t^2)^5/2 \
1 & 0 & 0 \
frac2 m tsqrtr^2 - t^2 & frac2 m r^2(r^2 - t^2)^3/2 & frac6 m t r^2(r^2 - t^2)^5/2 \
endmatrix right ] = 0$$
Its determinant is (still!) zero, so the terminator cast into a right circular cylinder by a flat rim perpendicular to the axis of the cylinder, is also planar.



Right circular cylinder case






share|cite|improve this answer






















  • What coordinates of $C$ are calculated in each case?
    – Narasimham
    Aug 31 at 4:10











  • @Narasimham: As defined in your question, $C_i = (0, pm r, h)$ in this coordinate system. The actual point where the terminator meets the rim are those points for the right circular cylinder, but $left(fracm r^22 h, pm r sqrt1 - fracm^2 r^24 h^2, h right)$ for the parabolic dish. (In both images, $x$ increases right, $z$ up, and $y$ in and up.)
    – Nominal Animal
    Aug 31 at 15:15











  • @Narasimham: Consider a (reverse path of a) light ray starting from that point: $$leftlbracebeginalignedx(t) &= fracm r^22 h + t \ y(t) &= r sqrt1 - fracm^2 r^24 h^2 \ z(t) &= h + m t endalignedright.$$Substitute into the dish equation, $$h left ( x^2 + y^2 right ) - r^2 z = 0$$ and you'll find the only solution is $t = 0$. Adding $epsilon$ to $x(t)$, $y(t)$, or $z(t)$ lets you explore the region near that point. Although I am often wrong, $left(fracm r^22 h, pm r sqrt1 - fracm^2 r^24 h^2, hright)$ is where the terminator meets the rim of the dish.
    – Nominal Animal
    Sep 1 at 17:01











  • (For a parabolic dish of height $h$ and radius $r$, with center of base at origin, and rim at $z = h$, obviously.)
    – Nominal Animal
    Sep 1 at 17:11














up vote
0
down vote













This is not an answer, but a report of my findings. I am hoping that someone better at math can use these to actually answer the question.




Let's use a coordinate system where the base of the dish is at origin, the height of the dish is $h$, the radius of the rim is $r$. Let all light rays be parallel, with direction vector $(-1 , 0 , -m)$, $0 lt m in mathbbR$. The light rays on the terminator cast by the rim of the dish fulfill
$$z_textterminator(x, y) = m left(x - sqrtr^2 - y^2 right) + h tag1labelNA1$$
Note that $eqrefNA1$ applies to all dishes that have a circular rim of radius $r$ at $z = h$.




A parabolic dish with base at origin, height $h$, and rim radius $r$, can be defined by
$$z_textdish(x, y) = frachr^2 left( x^2 + y^2 right) tag2labelNA2$$
The light rays on the terminator cast by the dish rim intersect with the inside of the bowl when $0 le z_textterminator(x, y) = z_textdish(x, y) lt h$. Solving that for $x$ yields
$$x_textterminator(y) = fracm r^2 pm leftlvert m r^2 - 2 h sqrtr^2 - y^2 rightrvert2 h tag3labelNA3$$
To locate the $y$ coordinate where the terminator intersects the rim, we substitute $eqrefNA3$ into $z_textdish(x,y) = h$, and solve for $y$. The result is
$$y_textrim = pm r sqrt1 - fracm^2 r^24 h^2 tag4alabelNA4a$$
From $z_textterminator(x, y_textrim) = h$ we can solve the corresponding $x$ coordinate:
$$x_textrim = fracm r^22 h tag4blabelNA4b$$
and obviously $z_textrim = h$.



Note that $(x_textrim, y_textrim, z_textrim)$ is not the point $C$ in OP's diagram; it is to the right of it. Here is an orthographic projection of $h = 0.5$, $r = 1$, $m = 0.2$ I raytraced in POVRay: example dish
Note that light comes from right, and the dish is an indentation in the cylinder.



If the slope of the light is small enough, $m lt frac2 hr$, the absolute value term in $eqrefNA3$ is negative or zero for $-lvert y_textrim rvert lt y lt lvert y_textrim rvert$. Then,
$$leftlbracebeginaligned
x_textterminator(y) &= fracm r^2h - sqrtr^2 - y^2 \
y_textterminator(y) &= y \
z_textterminator(y) &= fracm^2 r^2h - 2 m sqrtr^2 - y^2 + h \
endalignedright., quad lvert y rvert lt lvert y_textrim rvert, ; m lt frac2 hr tag4clabelNA4c$$
where $z_textterminator(y)$ was obtained by substituting $x_textterminator(y)$ into $eqrefNA1$ or $eqrefNA2$ (both yield the same result).



We can test for planarity (via torsion), using the first, second, and third derivatives. The curve is planar if and only if
$$det left [ beginmatrix
fractsqrtr^2 - t^2 & fracr^2(r^2 - t^2)^3/2 & frac3 t r^2(r^2 - t^2)^5/2 \
1 & 0 & 0 \
frac2 m tsqrtr^2 - t^2 & frac2 m r^2(r^2 - t^2)^3/2 & frac6 m t r^2(r^2 - t^2)^5/2 \
endmatrix right ] = 0$$
This is indeed true for the parabolic dish.




Unfortunately, I don't see how to generalize this to other dish profiles, not even to
$$z_textdish = frachr^2 kleft( x^2 + y^2 right)^k$$
except for $k = 1$ (the above parabolic dish case), and maybe $k = 1/2$. The issue is solving $z_textterminator(x,y) = z_textdish(x,y)$ for $x$ (to get $x_textterminator(y)$).




Let's consider a right circular cylinder with radius $r$, axis along $z$ axis, and top at $z = h$. In this case,
$$x_textcylinder(y) = pmsqrtr^2 - y^2$$
and solving $eqrefNA1$ for $x$ yields
$$x_textterminator(y, z) = sqrtr^2 - y^2 + fracz - hm$$
Solving $x_textcylinder(y) = x_textterminator(y, z)$ for $z$ yields
$$z_textterminator(y) = h - 2 m sqrtr^2 - y^2$$
(and $z_textterminator(y) = h$, but that is on the rim).
i.e. the terminator curve is
$$leftlbracebeginaligned
x_textterminator(t) &= -sqrtr^2 - t^2 \
y_textterminator(t) &= t \
z_textterminator(t) &= h - 2 m sqrtr^2 - t^2 \
endalignedright .$$
where $x_textterminator(t)$ was obtained by solving $z_textterminator(y) = z_textterminator(x, y)$ and solving for $x$.
The torsion test (determinant of the matrix formed by the first three derivatives of the terminator curve) is again
$$det left [ beginmatrix
fractsqrtr^2 - t^2 & fracr^2(r^2 - t^2)^3/2 & frac3 t r^2(r^2 - t^2)^5/2 \
1 & 0 & 0 \
frac2 m tsqrtr^2 - t^2 & frac2 m r^2(r^2 - t^2)^3/2 & frac6 m t r^2(r^2 - t^2)^5/2 \
endmatrix right ] = 0$$
Its determinant is (still!) zero, so the terminator cast into a right circular cylinder by a flat rim perpendicular to the axis of the cylinder, is also planar.



Right circular cylinder case






share|cite|improve this answer






















  • What coordinates of $C$ are calculated in each case?
    – Narasimham
    Aug 31 at 4:10











  • @Narasimham: As defined in your question, $C_i = (0, pm r, h)$ in this coordinate system. The actual point where the terminator meets the rim are those points for the right circular cylinder, but $left(fracm r^22 h, pm r sqrt1 - fracm^2 r^24 h^2, h right)$ for the parabolic dish. (In both images, $x$ increases right, $z$ up, and $y$ in and up.)
    – Nominal Animal
    Aug 31 at 15:15











  • @Narasimham: Consider a (reverse path of a) light ray starting from that point: $$leftlbracebeginalignedx(t) &= fracm r^22 h + t \ y(t) &= r sqrt1 - fracm^2 r^24 h^2 \ z(t) &= h + m t endalignedright.$$Substitute into the dish equation, $$h left ( x^2 + y^2 right ) - r^2 z = 0$$ and you'll find the only solution is $t = 0$. Adding $epsilon$ to $x(t)$, $y(t)$, or $z(t)$ lets you explore the region near that point. Although I am often wrong, $left(fracm r^22 h, pm r sqrt1 - fracm^2 r^24 h^2, hright)$ is where the terminator meets the rim of the dish.
    – Nominal Animal
    Sep 1 at 17:01











  • (For a parabolic dish of height $h$ and radius $r$, with center of base at origin, and rim at $z = h$, obviously.)
    – Nominal Animal
    Sep 1 at 17:11












up vote
0
down vote










up vote
0
down vote









This is not an answer, but a report of my findings. I am hoping that someone better at math can use these to actually answer the question.




Let's use a coordinate system where the base of the dish is at origin, the height of the dish is $h$, the radius of the rim is $r$. Let all light rays be parallel, with direction vector $(-1 , 0 , -m)$, $0 lt m in mathbbR$. The light rays on the terminator cast by the rim of the dish fulfill
$$z_textterminator(x, y) = m left(x - sqrtr^2 - y^2 right) + h tag1labelNA1$$
Note that $eqrefNA1$ applies to all dishes that have a circular rim of radius $r$ at $z = h$.




A parabolic dish with base at origin, height $h$, and rim radius $r$, can be defined by
$$z_textdish(x, y) = frachr^2 left( x^2 + y^2 right) tag2labelNA2$$
The light rays on the terminator cast by the dish rim intersect with the inside of the bowl when $0 le z_textterminator(x, y) = z_textdish(x, y) lt h$. Solving that for $x$ yields
$$x_textterminator(y) = fracm r^2 pm leftlvert m r^2 - 2 h sqrtr^2 - y^2 rightrvert2 h tag3labelNA3$$
To locate the $y$ coordinate where the terminator intersects the rim, we substitute $eqrefNA3$ into $z_textdish(x,y) = h$, and solve for $y$. The result is
$$y_textrim = pm r sqrt1 - fracm^2 r^24 h^2 tag4alabelNA4a$$
From $z_textterminator(x, y_textrim) = h$ we can solve the corresponding $x$ coordinate:
$$x_textrim = fracm r^22 h tag4blabelNA4b$$
and obviously $z_textrim = h$.



Note that $(x_textrim, y_textrim, z_textrim)$ is not the point $C$ in OP's diagram; it is to the right of it. Here is an orthographic projection of $h = 0.5$, $r = 1$, $m = 0.2$ I raytraced in POVRay: example dish
Note that light comes from right, and the dish is an indentation in the cylinder.



If the slope of the light is small enough, $m lt frac2 hr$, the absolute value term in $eqrefNA3$ is negative or zero for $-lvert y_textrim rvert lt y lt lvert y_textrim rvert$. Then,
$$leftlbracebeginaligned
x_textterminator(y) &= fracm r^2h - sqrtr^2 - y^2 \
y_textterminator(y) &= y \
z_textterminator(y) &= fracm^2 r^2h - 2 m sqrtr^2 - y^2 + h \
endalignedright., quad lvert y rvert lt lvert y_textrim rvert, ; m lt frac2 hr tag4clabelNA4c$$
where $z_textterminator(y)$ was obtained by substituting $x_textterminator(y)$ into $eqrefNA1$ or $eqrefNA2$ (both yield the same result).



We can test for planarity (via torsion), using the first, second, and third derivatives. The curve is planar if and only if
$$det left [ beginmatrix
fractsqrtr^2 - t^2 & fracr^2(r^2 - t^2)^3/2 & frac3 t r^2(r^2 - t^2)^5/2 \
1 & 0 & 0 \
frac2 m tsqrtr^2 - t^2 & frac2 m r^2(r^2 - t^2)^3/2 & frac6 m t r^2(r^2 - t^2)^5/2 \
endmatrix right ] = 0$$
This is indeed true for the parabolic dish.




Unfortunately, I don't see how to generalize this to other dish profiles, not even to
$$z_textdish = frachr^2 kleft( x^2 + y^2 right)^k$$
except for $k = 1$ (the above parabolic dish case), and maybe $k = 1/2$. The issue is solving $z_textterminator(x,y) = z_textdish(x,y)$ for $x$ (to get $x_textterminator(y)$).




Let's consider a right circular cylinder with radius $r$, axis along $z$ axis, and top at $z = h$. In this case,
$$x_textcylinder(y) = pmsqrtr^2 - y^2$$
and solving $eqrefNA1$ for $x$ yields
$$x_textterminator(y, z) = sqrtr^2 - y^2 + fracz - hm$$
Solving $x_textcylinder(y) = x_textterminator(y, z)$ for $z$ yields
$$z_textterminator(y) = h - 2 m sqrtr^2 - y^2$$
(and $z_textterminator(y) = h$, but that is on the rim).
i.e. the terminator curve is
$$leftlbracebeginaligned
x_textterminator(t) &= -sqrtr^2 - t^2 \
y_textterminator(t) &= t \
z_textterminator(t) &= h - 2 m sqrtr^2 - t^2 \
endalignedright .$$
where $x_textterminator(t)$ was obtained by solving $z_textterminator(y) = z_textterminator(x, y)$ and solving for $x$.
The torsion test (determinant of the matrix formed by the first three derivatives of the terminator curve) is again
$$det left [ beginmatrix
fractsqrtr^2 - t^2 & fracr^2(r^2 - t^2)^3/2 & frac3 t r^2(r^2 - t^2)^5/2 \
1 & 0 & 0 \
frac2 m tsqrtr^2 - t^2 & frac2 m r^2(r^2 - t^2)^3/2 & frac6 m t r^2(r^2 - t^2)^5/2 \
endmatrix right ] = 0$$
Its determinant is (still!) zero, so the terminator cast into a right circular cylinder by a flat rim perpendicular to the axis of the cylinder, is also planar.



Right circular cylinder case






share|cite|improve this answer














This is not an answer, but a report of my findings. I am hoping that someone better at math can use these to actually answer the question.




Let's use a coordinate system where the base of the dish is at origin, the height of the dish is $h$, the radius of the rim is $r$. Let all light rays be parallel, with direction vector $(-1 , 0 , -m)$, $0 lt m in mathbbR$. The light rays on the terminator cast by the rim of the dish fulfill
$$z_textterminator(x, y) = m left(x - sqrtr^2 - y^2 right) + h tag1labelNA1$$
Note that $eqrefNA1$ applies to all dishes that have a circular rim of radius $r$ at $z = h$.




A parabolic dish with base at origin, height $h$, and rim radius $r$, can be defined by
$$z_textdish(x, y) = frachr^2 left( x^2 + y^2 right) tag2labelNA2$$
The light rays on the terminator cast by the dish rim intersect with the inside of the bowl when $0 le z_textterminator(x, y) = z_textdish(x, y) lt h$. Solving that for $x$ yields
$$x_textterminator(y) = fracm r^2 pm leftlvert m r^2 - 2 h sqrtr^2 - y^2 rightrvert2 h tag3labelNA3$$
To locate the $y$ coordinate where the terminator intersects the rim, we substitute $eqrefNA3$ into $z_textdish(x,y) = h$, and solve for $y$. The result is
$$y_textrim = pm r sqrt1 - fracm^2 r^24 h^2 tag4alabelNA4a$$
From $z_textterminator(x, y_textrim) = h$ we can solve the corresponding $x$ coordinate:
$$x_textrim = fracm r^22 h tag4blabelNA4b$$
and obviously $z_textrim = h$.



Note that $(x_textrim, y_textrim, z_textrim)$ is not the point $C$ in OP's diagram; it is to the right of it. Here is an orthographic projection of $h = 0.5$, $r = 1$, $m = 0.2$ I raytraced in POVRay: example dish
Note that light comes from right, and the dish is an indentation in the cylinder.



If the slope of the light is small enough, $m lt frac2 hr$, the absolute value term in $eqrefNA3$ is negative or zero for $-lvert y_textrim rvert lt y lt lvert y_textrim rvert$. Then,
$$leftlbracebeginaligned
x_textterminator(y) &= fracm r^2h - sqrtr^2 - y^2 \
y_textterminator(y) &= y \
z_textterminator(y) &= fracm^2 r^2h - 2 m sqrtr^2 - y^2 + h \
endalignedright., quad lvert y rvert lt lvert y_textrim rvert, ; m lt frac2 hr tag4clabelNA4c$$
where $z_textterminator(y)$ was obtained by substituting $x_textterminator(y)$ into $eqrefNA1$ or $eqrefNA2$ (both yield the same result).



We can test for planarity (via torsion), using the first, second, and third derivatives. The curve is planar if and only if
$$det left [ beginmatrix
fractsqrtr^2 - t^2 & fracr^2(r^2 - t^2)^3/2 & frac3 t r^2(r^2 - t^2)^5/2 \
1 & 0 & 0 \
frac2 m tsqrtr^2 - t^2 & frac2 m r^2(r^2 - t^2)^3/2 & frac6 m t r^2(r^2 - t^2)^5/2 \
endmatrix right ] = 0$$
This is indeed true for the parabolic dish.




Unfortunately, I don't see how to generalize this to other dish profiles, not even to
$$z_textdish = frachr^2 kleft( x^2 + y^2 right)^k$$
except for $k = 1$ (the above parabolic dish case), and maybe $k = 1/2$. The issue is solving $z_textterminator(x,y) = z_textdish(x,y)$ for $x$ (to get $x_textterminator(y)$).




Let's consider a right circular cylinder with radius $r$, axis along $z$ axis, and top at $z = h$. In this case,
$$x_textcylinder(y) = pmsqrtr^2 - y^2$$
and solving $eqrefNA1$ for $x$ yields
$$x_textterminator(y, z) = sqrtr^2 - y^2 + fracz - hm$$
Solving $x_textcylinder(y) = x_textterminator(y, z)$ for $z$ yields
$$z_textterminator(y) = h - 2 m sqrtr^2 - y^2$$
(and $z_textterminator(y) = h$, but that is on the rim).
i.e. the terminator curve is
$$leftlbracebeginaligned
x_textterminator(t) &= -sqrtr^2 - t^2 \
y_textterminator(t) &= t \
z_textterminator(t) &= h - 2 m sqrtr^2 - t^2 \
endalignedright .$$
where $x_textterminator(t)$ was obtained by solving $z_textterminator(y) = z_textterminator(x, y)$ and solving for $x$.
The torsion test (determinant of the matrix formed by the first three derivatives of the terminator curve) is again
$$det left [ beginmatrix
fractsqrtr^2 - t^2 & fracr^2(r^2 - t^2)^3/2 & frac3 t r^2(r^2 - t^2)^5/2 \
1 & 0 & 0 \
frac2 m tsqrtr^2 - t^2 & frac2 m r^2(r^2 - t^2)^3/2 & frac6 m t r^2(r^2 - t^2)^5/2 \
endmatrix right ] = 0$$
Its determinant is (still!) zero, so the terminator cast into a right circular cylinder by a flat rim perpendicular to the axis of the cylinder, is also planar.



Right circular cylinder case







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited Aug 31 at 1:58

























answered Aug 31 at 1:02









Nominal Animal

5,8202414




5,8202414











  • What coordinates of $C$ are calculated in each case?
    – Narasimham
    Aug 31 at 4:10











  • @Narasimham: As defined in your question, $C_i = (0, pm r, h)$ in this coordinate system. The actual point where the terminator meets the rim are those points for the right circular cylinder, but $left(fracm r^22 h, pm r sqrt1 - fracm^2 r^24 h^2, h right)$ for the parabolic dish. (In both images, $x$ increases right, $z$ up, and $y$ in and up.)
    – Nominal Animal
    Aug 31 at 15:15











  • @Narasimham: Consider a (reverse path of a) light ray starting from that point: $$leftlbracebeginalignedx(t) &= fracm r^22 h + t \ y(t) &= r sqrt1 - fracm^2 r^24 h^2 \ z(t) &= h + m t endalignedright.$$Substitute into the dish equation, $$h left ( x^2 + y^2 right ) - r^2 z = 0$$ and you'll find the only solution is $t = 0$. Adding $epsilon$ to $x(t)$, $y(t)$, or $z(t)$ lets you explore the region near that point. Although I am often wrong, $left(fracm r^22 h, pm r sqrt1 - fracm^2 r^24 h^2, hright)$ is where the terminator meets the rim of the dish.
    – Nominal Animal
    Sep 1 at 17:01











  • (For a parabolic dish of height $h$ and radius $r$, with center of base at origin, and rim at $z = h$, obviously.)
    – Nominal Animal
    Sep 1 at 17:11
















  • What coordinates of $C$ are calculated in each case?
    – Narasimham
    Aug 31 at 4:10











  • @Narasimham: As defined in your question, $C_i = (0, pm r, h)$ in this coordinate system. The actual point where the terminator meets the rim are those points for the right circular cylinder, but $left(fracm r^22 h, pm r sqrt1 - fracm^2 r^24 h^2, h right)$ for the parabolic dish. (In both images, $x$ increases right, $z$ up, and $y$ in and up.)
    – Nominal Animal
    Aug 31 at 15:15











  • @Narasimham: Consider a (reverse path of a) light ray starting from that point: $$leftlbracebeginalignedx(t) &= fracm r^22 h + t \ y(t) &= r sqrt1 - fracm^2 r^24 h^2 \ z(t) &= h + m t endalignedright.$$Substitute into the dish equation, $$h left ( x^2 + y^2 right ) - r^2 z = 0$$ and you'll find the only solution is $t = 0$. Adding $epsilon$ to $x(t)$, $y(t)$, or $z(t)$ lets you explore the region near that point. Although I am often wrong, $left(fracm r^22 h, pm r sqrt1 - fracm^2 r^24 h^2, hright)$ is where the terminator meets the rim of the dish.
    – Nominal Animal
    Sep 1 at 17:01











  • (For a parabolic dish of height $h$ and radius $r$, with center of base at origin, and rim at $z = h$, obviously.)
    – Nominal Animal
    Sep 1 at 17:11















What coordinates of $C$ are calculated in each case?
– Narasimham
Aug 31 at 4:10





What coordinates of $C$ are calculated in each case?
– Narasimham
Aug 31 at 4:10













@Narasimham: As defined in your question, $C_i = (0, pm r, h)$ in this coordinate system. The actual point where the terminator meets the rim are those points for the right circular cylinder, but $left(fracm r^22 h, pm r sqrt1 - fracm^2 r^24 h^2, h right)$ for the parabolic dish. (In both images, $x$ increases right, $z$ up, and $y$ in and up.)
– Nominal Animal
Aug 31 at 15:15





@Narasimham: As defined in your question, $C_i = (0, pm r, h)$ in this coordinate system. The actual point where the terminator meets the rim are those points for the right circular cylinder, but $left(fracm r^22 h, pm r sqrt1 - fracm^2 r^24 h^2, h right)$ for the parabolic dish. (In both images, $x$ increases right, $z$ up, and $y$ in and up.)
– Nominal Animal
Aug 31 at 15:15













@Narasimham: Consider a (reverse path of a) light ray starting from that point: $$leftlbracebeginalignedx(t) &= fracm r^22 h + t \ y(t) &= r sqrt1 - fracm^2 r^24 h^2 \ z(t) &= h + m t endalignedright.$$Substitute into the dish equation, $$h left ( x^2 + y^2 right ) - r^2 z = 0$$ and you'll find the only solution is $t = 0$. Adding $epsilon$ to $x(t)$, $y(t)$, or $z(t)$ lets you explore the region near that point. Although I am often wrong, $left(fracm r^22 h, pm r sqrt1 - fracm^2 r^24 h^2, hright)$ is where the terminator meets the rim of the dish.
– Nominal Animal
Sep 1 at 17:01





@Narasimham: Consider a (reverse path of a) light ray starting from that point: $$leftlbracebeginalignedx(t) &= fracm r^22 h + t \ y(t) &= r sqrt1 - fracm^2 r^24 h^2 \ z(t) &= h + m t endalignedright.$$Substitute into the dish equation, $$h left ( x^2 + y^2 right ) - r^2 z = 0$$ and you'll find the only solution is $t = 0$. Adding $epsilon$ to $x(t)$, $y(t)$, or $z(t)$ lets you explore the region near that point. Although I am often wrong, $left(fracm r^22 h, pm r sqrt1 - fracm^2 r^24 h^2, hright)$ is where the terminator meets the rim of the dish.
– Nominal Animal
Sep 1 at 17:01













(For a parabolic dish of height $h$ and radius $r$, with center of base at origin, and rim at $z = h$, obviously.)
– Nominal Animal
Sep 1 at 17:11




(For a parabolic dish of height $h$ and radius $r$, with center of base at origin, and rim at $z = h$, obviously.)
– Nominal Animal
Sep 1 at 17:11

















 

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