Is this proof for if $0 < a < b$ then $a^2 < b^2$ correct?

The name of the pictureThe name of the pictureThe name of the pictureClash Royale CLAN TAG#URR8PPP











up vote
3
down vote

favorite












I'm reading the book 'How to prove it' from Daniel Velleman which he presents a proof for the following; if $0 < a < b$ then $a^2 < b^2$ as;



Proof. Suppose $0 < a < b$. Multiplying the inequality $a < b$ by the positive number $a$ we can conclude that $a^2 < ab$, and similarly multiplying by $b$ we get $ab < b^2$. Therfore $a^2 < ab < b^2$, as required. Thus if $0 < a < b$ then $a^2 < b^2$.



However, I was also wondering if the statement could be proved using the following method.



Proof. Suppose that $0 < a < b$. Taking the square root of both sides of the inequality $sqrta^2 < sqrtb^2$ we get our original hypothesis $a < b$ . Thus if $0 < a < b$ then $a^2 < b^2$.







share|cite|improve this question
















  • 1




    The direction is reversed. $p implies q$ and $q implies p$ are different.
    – xbh
    Aug 29 at 10:30










  • Ok I see. Thank you for pointing that out.
    – redbandit
    Aug 29 at 10:32














up vote
3
down vote

favorite












I'm reading the book 'How to prove it' from Daniel Velleman which he presents a proof for the following; if $0 < a < b$ then $a^2 < b^2$ as;



Proof. Suppose $0 < a < b$. Multiplying the inequality $a < b$ by the positive number $a$ we can conclude that $a^2 < ab$, and similarly multiplying by $b$ we get $ab < b^2$. Therfore $a^2 < ab < b^2$, as required. Thus if $0 < a < b$ then $a^2 < b^2$.



However, I was also wondering if the statement could be proved using the following method.



Proof. Suppose that $0 < a < b$. Taking the square root of both sides of the inequality $sqrta^2 < sqrtb^2$ we get our original hypothesis $a < b$ . Thus if $0 < a < b$ then $a^2 < b^2$.







share|cite|improve this question
















  • 1




    The direction is reversed. $p implies q$ and $q implies p$ are different.
    – xbh
    Aug 29 at 10:30










  • Ok I see. Thank you for pointing that out.
    – redbandit
    Aug 29 at 10:32












up vote
3
down vote

favorite









up vote
3
down vote

favorite











I'm reading the book 'How to prove it' from Daniel Velleman which he presents a proof for the following; if $0 < a < b$ then $a^2 < b^2$ as;



Proof. Suppose $0 < a < b$. Multiplying the inequality $a < b$ by the positive number $a$ we can conclude that $a^2 < ab$, and similarly multiplying by $b$ we get $ab < b^2$. Therfore $a^2 < ab < b^2$, as required. Thus if $0 < a < b$ then $a^2 < b^2$.



However, I was also wondering if the statement could be proved using the following method.



Proof. Suppose that $0 < a < b$. Taking the square root of both sides of the inequality $sqrta^2 < sqrtb^2$ we get our original hypothesis $a < b$ . Thus if $0 < a < b$ then $a^2 < b^2$.







share|cite|improve this question












I'm reading the book 'How to prove it' from Daniel Velleman which he presents a proof for the following; if $0 < a < b$ then $a^2 < b^2$ as;



Proof. Suppose $0 < a < b$. Multiplying the inequality $a < b$ by the positive number $a$ we can conclude that $a^2 < ab$, and similarly multiplying by $b$ we get $ab < b^2$. Therfore $a^2 < ab < b^2$, as required. Thus if $0 < a < b$ then $a^2 < b^2$.



However, I was also wondering if the statement could be proved using the following method.



Proof. Suppose that $0 < a < b$. Taking the square root of both sides of the inequality $sqrta^2 < sqrtb^2$ we get our original hypothesis $a < b$ . Thus if $0 < a < b$ then $a^2 < b^2$.









share|cite|improve this question











share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question










asked Aug 29 at 10:28









redbandit

1233




1233







  • 1




    The direction is reversed. $p implies q$ and $q implies p$ are different.
    – xbh
    Aug 29 at 10:30










  • Ok I see. Thank you for pointing that out.
    – redbandit
    Aug 29 at 10:32












  • 1




    The direction is reversed. $p implies q$ and $q implies p$ are different.
    – xbh
    Aug 29 at 10:30










  • Ok I see. Thank you for pointing that out.
    – redbandit
    Aug 29 at 10:32







1




1




The direction is reversed. $p implies q$ and $q implies p$ are different.
– xbh
Aug 29 at 10:30




The direction is reversed. $p implies q$ and $q implies p$ are different.
– xbh
Aug 29 at 10:30












Ok I see. Thank you for pointing that out.
– redbandit
Aug 29 at 10:32




Ok I see. Thank you for pointing that out.
– redbandit
Aug 29 at 10:32










1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
4
down vote













In the proof from the book you presented, you've assumed $0<a<b$ and deduced $a^2<b^2$.



In your presented proof, you've essentially assumed $a^2<b^2$ and deduced $a<b$. Why? The hypothesis $0<a<b$ is never used and by taking the square root of $a^2<b^2$, you implicitly assume that statement, deducing $a<b$ from it.



Thus, conceptually you have shown $BRightarrow A$ for the corresponding statements $A,B$, i.e. you have established $ALeftrightarrow B$ using $ARightarrow B$ from the previous proof.



EDIT: As discussed with Ennar in the comments, there are additionally some issues with deducing $a<b$ from $a^2<b^2$ as it requires the square root function to be monotone, a property that follows from the fact the the square function is monotone on $[0,infty)$. Then of course, you can not establish $BRightarrow A$ without first establishing $ARightarrow B$, i.e. there is another circularity of reasoning.



As you can see, there are even more implicit assumptions than I had initially pointed out.






share|cite|improve this answer






















  • Actually, I'm not convinced that the proof of $a^2<b^2$ implies $a<b$ isn't circular. How does one know that square root is monotone without knowing that squaring is monotone (on positive numbers)?
    – Ennar
    Aug 29 at 11:08










  • @Ennar This is another problem, yes. I just wanted to elaborate the concept assuming something implicitly and that the hypothesis is not just what you state it is(necessarily).
    – zzuussee
    Aug 29 at 11:11










  • I understand and it's a good answer, but your last row can be misleading to OP who is probably first time learning how to write proofs.
    – Ennar
    Aug 29 at 11:14










  • @Ennar I think you're right, I'll add this in.
    – zzuussee
    Aug 29 at 11:18










  • @Ennar Feel free to also edit my answer if you have other improvements. I've tried to convey this point as good(and short) as possible.
    – zzuussee
    Aug 29 at 11:25










Your Answer




StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function ()
return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function ()
StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix)
StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
);
);
, "mathjax-editing");

StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "69"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);

else
createEditor();

);

function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
convertImagesToLinks: true,
noModals: false,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: 10,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);



);













 

draft saved


draft discarded


















StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f2898214%2fis-this-proof-for-if-0-a-b-then-a2-b2-correct%23new-answer', 'question_page');

);

Post as a guest






























1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes








1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes








up vote
4
down vote













In the proof from the book you presented, you've assumed $0<a<b$ and deduced $a^2<b^2$.



In your presented proof, you've essentially assumed $a^2<b^2$ and deduced $a<b$. Why? The hypothesis $0<a<b$ is never used and by taking the square root of $a^2<b^2$, you implicitly assume that statement, deducing $a<b$ from it.



Thus, conceptually you have shown $BRightarrow A$ for the corresponding statements $A,B$, i.e. you have established $ALeftrightarrow B$ using $ARightarrow B$ from the previous proof.



EDIT: As discussed with Ennar in the comments, there are additionally some issues with deducing $a<b$ from $a^2<b^2$ as it requires the square root function to be monotone, a property that follows from the fact the the square function is monotone on $[0,infty)$. Then of course, you can not establish $BRightarrow A$ without first establishing $ARightarrow B$, i.e. there is another circularity of reasoning.



As you can see, there are even more implicit assumptions than I had initially pointed out.






share|cite|improve this answer






















  • Actually, I'm not convinced that the proof of $a^2<b^2$ implies $a<b$ isn't circular. How does one know that square root is monotone without knowing that squaring is monotone (on positive numbers)?
    – Ennar
    Aug 29 at 11:08










  • @Ennar This is another problem, yes. I just wanted to elaborate the concept assuming something implicitly and that the hypothesis is not just what you state it is(necessarily).
    – zzuussee
    Aug 29 at 11:11










  • I understand and it's a good answer, but your last row can be misleading to OP who is probably first time learning how to write proofs.
    – Ennar
    Aug 29 at 11:14










  • @Ennar I think you're right, I'll add this in.
    – zzuussee
    Aug 29 at 11:18










  • @Ennar Feel free to also edit my answer if you have other improvements. I've tried to convey this point as good(and short) as possible.
    – zzuussee
    Aug 29 at 11:25














up vote
4
down vote













In the proof from the book you presented, you've assumed $0<a<b$ and deduced $a^2<b^2$.



In your presented proof, you've essentially assumed $a^2<b^2$ and deduced $a<b$. Why? The hypothesis $0<a<b$ is never used and by taking the square root of $a^2<b^2$, you implicitly assume that statement, deducing $a<b$ from it.



Thus, conceptually you have shown $BRightarrow A$ for the corresponding statements $A,B$, i.e. you have established $ALeftrightarrow B$ using $ARightarrow B$ from the previous proof.



EDIT: As discussed with Ennar in the comments, there are additionally some issues with deducing $a<b$ from $a^2<b^2$ as it requires the square root function to be monotone, a property that follows from the fact the the square function is monotone on $[0,infty)$. Then of course, you can not establish $BRightarrow A$ without first establishing $ARightarrow B$, i.e. there is another circularity of reasoning.



As you can see, there are even more implicit assumptions than I had initially pointed out.






share|cite|improve this answer






















  • Actually, I'm not convinced that the proof of $a^2<b^2$ implies $a<b$ isn't circular. How does one know that square root is monotone without knowing that squaring is monotone (on positive numbers)?
    – Ennar
    Aug 29 at 11:08










  • @Ennar This is another problem, yes. I just wanted to elaborate the concept assuming something implicitly and that the hypothesis is not just what you state it is(necessarily).
    – zzuussee
    Aug 29 at 11:11










  • I understand and it's a good answer, but your last row can be misleading to OP who is probably first time learning how to write proofs.
    – Ennar
    Aug 29 at 11:14










  • @Ennar I think you're right, I'll add this in.
    – zzuussee
    Aug 29 at 11:18










  • @Ennar Feel free to also edit my answer if you have other improvements. I've tried to convey this point as good(and short) as possible.
    – zzuussee
    Aug 29 at 11:25












up vote
4
down vote










up vote
4
down vote









In the proof from the book you presented, you've assumed $0<a<b$ and deduced $a^2<b^2$.



In your presented proof, you've essentially assumed $a^2<b^2$ and deduced $a<b$. Why? The hypothesis $0<a<b$ is never used and by taking the square root of $a^2<b^2$, you implicitly assume that statement, deducing $a<b$ from it.



Thus, conceptually you have shown $BRightarrow A$ for the corresponding statements $A,B$, i.e. you have established $ALeftrightarrow B$ using $ARightarrow B$ from the previous proof.



EDIT: As discussed with Ennar in the comments, there are additionally some issues with deducing $a<b$ from $a^2<b^2$ as it requires the square root function to be monotone, a property that follows from the fact the the square function is monotone on $[0,infty)$. Then of course, you can not establish $BRightarrow A$ without first establishing $ARightarrow B$, i.e. there is another circularity of reasoning.



As you can see, there are even more implicit assumptions than I had initially pointed out.






share|cite|improve this answer














In the proof from the book you presented, you've assumed $0<a<b$ and deduced $a^2<b^2$.



In your presented proof, you've essentially assumed $a^2<b^2$ and deduced $a<b$. Why? The hypothesis $0<a<b$ is never used and by taking the square root of $a^2<b^2$, you implicitly assume that statement, deducing $a<b$ from it.



Thus, conceptually you have shown $BRightarrow A$ for the corresponding statements $A,B$, i.e. you have established $ALeftrightarrow B$ using $ARightarrow B$ from the previous proof.



EDIT: As discussed with Ennar in the comments, there are additionally some issues with deducing $a<b$ from $a^2<b^2$ as it requires the square root function to be monotone, a property that follows from the fact the the square function is monotone on $[0,infty)$. Then of course, you can not establish $BRightarrow A$ without first establishing $ARightarrow B$, i.e. there is another circularity of reasoning.



As you can see, there are even more implicit assumptions than I had initially pointed out.







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited Aug 29 at 11:24

























answered Aug 29 at 10:32









zzuussee

2,480625




2,480625











  • Actually, I'm not convinced that the proof of $a^2<b^2$ implies $a<b$ isn't circular. How does one know that square root is monotone without knowing that squaring is monotone (on positive numbers)?
    – Ennar
    Aug 29 at 11:08










  • @Ennar This is another problem, yes. I just wanted to elaborate the concept assuming something implicitly and that the hypothesis is not just what you state it is(necessarily).
    – zzuussee
    Aug 29 at 11:11










  • I understand and it's a good answer, but your last row can be misleading to OP who is probably first time learning how to write proofs.
    – Ennar
    Aug 29 at 11:14










  • @Ennar I think you're right, I'll add this in.
    – zzuussee
    Aug 29 at 11:18










  • @Ennar Feel free to also edit my answer if you have other improvements. I've tried to convey this point as good(and short) as possible.
    – zzuussee
    Aug 29 at 11:25
















  • Actually, I'm not convinced that the proof of $a^2<b^2$ implies $a<b$ isn't circular. How does one know that square root is monotone without knowing that squaring is monotone (on positive numbers)?
    – Ennar
    Aug 29 at 11:08










  • @Ennar This is another problem, yes. I just wanted to elaborate the concept assuming something implicitly and that the hypothesis is not just what you state it is(necessarily).
    – zzuussee
    Aug 29 at 11:11










  • I understand and it's a good answer, but your last row can be misleading to OP who is probably first time learning how to write proofs.
    – Ennar
    Aug 29 at 11:14










  • @Ennar I think you're right, I'll add this in.
    – zzuussee
    Aug 29 at 11:18










  • @Ennar Feel free to also edit my answer if you have other improvements. I've tried to convey this point as good(and short) as possible.
    – zzuussee
    Aug 29 at 11:25















Actually, I'm not convinced that the proof of $a^2<b^2$ implies $a<b$ isn't circular. How does one know that square root is monotone without knowing that squaring is monotone (on positive numbers)?
– Ennar
Aug 29 at 11:08




Actually, I'm not convinced that the proof of $a^2<b^2$ implies $a<b$ isn't circular. How does one know that square root is monotone without knowing that squaring is monotone (on positive numbers)?
– Ennar
Aug 29 at 11:08












@Ennar This is another problem, yes. I just wanted to elaborate the concept assuming something implicitly and that the hypothesis is not just what you state it is(necessarily).
– zzuussee
Aug 29 at 11:11




@Ennar This is another problem, yes. I just wanted to elaborate the concept assuming something implicitly and that the hypothesis is not just what you state it is(necessarily).
– zzuussee
Aug 29 at 11:11












I understand and it's a good answer, but your last row can be misleading to OP who is probably first time learning how to write proofs.
– Ennar
Aug 29 at 11:14




I understand and it's a good answer, but your last row can be misleading to OP who is probably first time learning how to write proofs.
– Ennar
Aug 29 at 11:14












@Ennar I think you're right, I'll add this in.
– zzuussee
Aug 29 at 11:18




@Ennar I think you're right, I'll add this in.
– zzuussee
Aug 29 at 11:18












@Ennar Feel free to also edit my answer if you have other improvements. I've tried to convey this point as good(and short) as possible.
– zzuussee
Aug 29 at 11:25




@Ennar Feel free to also edit my answer if you have other improvements. I've tried to convey this point as good(and short) as possible.
– zzuussee
Aug 29 at 11:25

















 

draft saved


draft discarded















































 


draft saved


draft discarded














StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f2898214%2fis-this-proof-for-if-0-a-b-then-a2-b2-correct%23new-answer', 'question_page');

);

Post as a guest













































































這個網誌中的熱門文章

How to combine Bézier curves to a surface?

Mutual Information Always Non-negative

Why am i infinitely getting the same tweet with the Twitter Search API?