Prevent NPN Transistor Base-Emitter Current

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I'm making a simple AND gate array out of 2n2222 transistors. Here is one cell:





schematic





simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab



When Input "A", is disabled, and "B" is still on:





schematic





simulate this circuit



current flows from the base to the emitter of the transistor which is still on.



How do I filter out the smaller current when just the base-emitter on B is conducting, so the circuit functions like an AND gate? I've tried using larger resistors, and that solves the problem for a single gate. But the problem still exists when the gates are attached together.



Edit: Placing the LED in front of the AND gate solves the problem for a single gate too. But for an array of gates, this solution doesn't work.










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  • 3




    Not a direct answer to your question, but see Why are NAND gates used to make AND gates in computers? for an explanation of why positive-logic gates are a Bad Idea in general. You should be using your two transistors to build a NOR gate instead.
    – Dave Tweed♦
    Sep 8 at 1:46










  • Is this the industry standard for computers, and ICs in general?
    – Bill Mahoney
    Sep 8 at 1:53







  • 1




    If you're asking about my answer, then yes.
    – Dave Tweed♦
    Sep 8 at 1:55











  • @Bill: Regarding your edit: (1) What does "in front of" mean? In the transistor's collector rather than the emitter? (2) What do you mean by "But for an array of gates, this solution doesn't work"?
    – Transistor
    Sep 8 at 14:10














up vote
2
down vote

favorite












I'm making a simple AND gate array out of 2n2222 transistors. Here is one cell:





schematic





simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab



When Input "A", is disabled, and "B" is still on:





schematic





simulate this circuit



current flows from the base to the emitter of the transistor which is still on.



How do I filter out the smaller current when just the base-emitter on B is conducting, so the circuit functions like an AND gate? I've tried using larger resistors, and that solves the problem for a single gate. But the problem still exists when the gates are attached together.



Edit: Placing the LED in front of the AND gate solves the problem for a single gate too. But for an array of gates, this solution doesn't work.










share|improve this question



















  • 3




    Not a direct answer to your question, but see Why are NAND gates used to make AND gates in computers? for an explanation of why positive-logic gates are a Bad Idea in general. You should be using your two transistors to build a NOR gate instead.
    – Dave Tweed♦
    Sep 8 at 1:46










  • Is this the industry standard for computers, and ICs in general?
    – Bill Mahoney
    Sep 8 at 1:53







  • 1




    If you're asking about my answer, then yes.
    – Dave Tweed♦
    Sep 8 at 1:55











  • @Bill: Regarding your edit: (1) What does "in front of" mean? In the transistor's collector rather than the emitter? (2) What do you mean by "But for an array of gates, this solution doesn't work"?
    – Transistor
    Sep 8 at 14:10












up vote
2
down vote

favorite









up vote
2
down vote

favorite











I'm making a simple AND gate array out of 2n2222 transistors. Here is one cell:





schematic





simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab



When Input "A", is disabled, and "B" is still on:





schematic





simulate this circuit



current flows from the base to the emitter of the transistor which is still on.



How do I filter out the smaller current when just the base-emitter on B is conducting, so the circuit functions like an AND gate? I've tried using larger resistors, and that solves the problem for a single gate. But the problem still exists when the gates are attached together.



Edit: Placing the LED in front of the AND gate solves the problem for a single gate too. But for an array of gates, this solution doesn't work.










share|improve this question















I'm making a simple AND gate array out of 2n2222 transistors. Here is one cell:





schematic





simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab



When Input "A", is disabled, and "B" is still on:





schematic





simulate this circuit



current flows from the base to the emitter of the transistor which is still on.



How do I filter out the smaller current when just the base-emitter on B is conducting, so the circuit functions like an AND gate? I've tried using larger resistors, and that solves the problem for a single gate. But the problem still exists when the gates are attached together.



Edit: Placing the LED in front of the AND gate solves the problem for a single gate too. But for an array of gates, this solution doesn't work.







transistors digital-logic logic-gates npn






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edited Sep 8 at 13:26

























asked Sep 8 at 1:41









Bill Mahoney

112




112







  • 3




    Not a direct answer to your question, but see Why are NAND gates used to make AND gates in computers? for an explanation of why positive-logic gates are a Bad Idea in general. You should be using your two transistors to build a NOR gate instead.
    – Dave Tweed♦
    Sep 8 at 1:46










  • Is this the industry standard for computers, and ICs in general?
    – Bill Mahoney
    Sep 8 at 1:53







  • 1




    If you're asking about my answer, then yes.
    – Dave Tweed♦
    Sep 8 at 1:55











  • @Bill: Regarding your edit: (1) What does "in front of" mean? In the transistor's collector rather than the emitter? (2) What do you mean by "But for an array of gates, this solution doesn't work"?
    – Transistor
    Sep 8 at 14:10












  • 3




    Not a direct answer to your question, but see Why are NAND gates used to make AND gates in computers? for an explanation of why positive-logic gates are a Bad Idea in general. You should be using your two transistors to build a NOR gate instead.
    – Dave Tweed♦
    Sep 8 at 1:46










  • Is this the industry standard for computers, and ICs in general?
    – Bill Mahoney
    Sep 8 at 1:53







  • 1




    If you're asking about my answer, then yes.
    – Dave Tweed♦
    Sep 8 at 1:55











  • @Bill: Regarding your edit: (1) What does "in front of" mean? In the transistor's collector rather than the emitter? (2) What do you mean by "But for an array of gates, this solution doesn't work"?
    – Transistor
    Sep 8 at 14:10







3




3




Not a direct answer to your question, but see Why are NAND gates used to make AND gates in computers? for an explanation of why positive-logic gates are a Bad Idea in general. You should be using your two transistors to build a NOR gate instead.
– Dave Tweed♦
Sep 8 at 1:46




Not a direct answer to your question, but see Why are NAND gates used to make AND gates in computers? for an explanation of why positive-logic gates are a Bad Idea in general. You should be using your two transistors to build a NOR gate instead.
– Dave Tweed♦
Sep 8 at 1:46












Is this the industry standard for computers, and ICs in general?
– Bill Mahoney
Sep 8 at 1:53





Is this the industry standard for computers, and ICs in general?
– Bill Mahoney
Sep 8 at 1:53





1




1




If you're asking about my answer, then yes.
– Dave Tweed♦
Sep 8 at 1:55





If you're asking about my answer, then yes.
– Dave Tweed♦
Sep 8 at 1:55













@Bill: Regarding your edit: (1) What does "in front of" mean? In the transistor's collector rather than the emitter? (2) What do you mean by "But for an array of gates, this solution doesn't work"?
– Transistor
Sep 8 at 14:10




@Bill: Regarding your edit: (1) What does "in front of" mean? In the transistor's collector rather than the emitter? (2) What do you mean by "But for an array of gates, this solution doesn't work"?
– Transistor
Sep 8 at 14:10










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
6
down vote














current flows from the base to the emitter of the transistor which is
still on.



How do I filter out the smaller current when just the base-emitter on
B is conducting, so the circuit functions like an AND gate?




You should understand the emitter current equals the base current plus the collector current (Ie = Ic + Ib). If you do not want the base current ("smaller current") then place the load on the collector side of the top transistor.





schematic





simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab






share|improve this answer




















  • This works nicely for a single gate. However, with a gate array, where the LED is replaced with an output signal, it does not work.
    – Bill Mahoney
    Sep 8 at 13:27

















up vote
2
down vote













This is just a note on your AND gate design. You can use CircuitLab's simulator to help understand your circuit.





schematic





simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab



Figure 1. The simulator needs a circuit GND as a reference for its calculations. I've added it to supply negative which is the usual location.



enter image description here



Figure 2. The original circuit.



With the addition of some nodes for voltage measurement the DC Solver shows us that when both transistors are on that the most current through the LED will be about 0.4 mA. This is mostly due to the voltage drop across R1. You can add in another node on the LED to check what voltage it is seeing.



Note the voltage drops between NODE1, NODE4 and NODE5.



enter image description here



Figure 3. R1 has been reduced to 100 Ω.



Now, at least, we get 7 mA through the LED and it should be good and bright.



Notice that there is a significant voltage drop on each transistor of about 0.7 V each. You have only 2.5 V on your output. You should be able to see that this isn't going to scale well for a 3 or 4-input AND gate.



You can experiment with the simulator in your schematics to understand further what happens when you disconnect one of the inputs. Don't forget to add a GND.




At least one of the other answers has pointed out that the load should be in the collector side of Q1. The reason is that the transistors can be driven into saturation and the voltage drop across each is very low.



enter image description here



Figure 3. Low-side switching results in much lower voltage drop across the transistors.






share|improve this answer




















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    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

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    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes









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    oldest

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    active

    oldest

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    up vote
    6
    down vote














    current flows from the base to the emitter of the transistor which is
    still on.



    How do I filter out the smaller current when just the base-emitter on
    B is conducting, so the circuit functions like an AND gate?




    You should understand the emitter current equals the base current plus the collector current (Ie = Ic + Ib). If you do not want the base current ("smaller current") then place the load on the collector side of the top transistor.





    schematic





    simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab






    share|improve this answer




















    • This works nicely for a single gate. However, with a gate array, where the LED is replaced with an output signal, it does not work.
      – Bill Mahoney
      Sep 8 at 13:27














    up vote
    6
    down vote














    current flows from the base to the emitter of the transistor which is
    still on.



    How do I filter out the smaller current when just the base-emitter on
    B is conducting, so the circuit functions like an AND gate?




    You should understand the emitter current equals the base current plus the collector current (Ie = Ic + Ib). If you do not want the base current ("smaller current") then place the load on the collector side of the top transistor.





    schematic





    simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab






    share|improve this answer




















    • This works nicely for a single gate. However, with a gate array, where the LED is replaced with an output signal, it does not work.
      – Bill Mahoney
      Sep 8 at 13:27












    up vote
    6
    down vote










    up vote
    6
    down vote










    current flows from the base to the emitter of the transistor which is
    still on.



    How do I filter out the smaller current when just the base-emitter on
    B is conducting, so the circuit functions like an AND gate?




    You should understand the emitter current equals the base current plus the collector current (Ie = Ic + Ib). If you do not want the base current ("smaller current") then place the load on the collector side of the top transistor.





    schematic





    simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab






    share|improve this answer













    current flows from the base to the emitter of the transistor which is
    still on.



    How do I filter out the smaller current when just the base-emitter on
    B is conducting, so the circuit functions like an AND gate?




    You should understand the emitter current equals the base current plus the collector current (Ie = Ic + Ib). If you do not want the base current ("smaller current") then place the load on the collector side of the top transistor.





    schematic





    simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab







    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered Sep 8 at 4:51









    Pzy

    784




    784











    • This works nicely for a single gate. However, with a gate array, where the LED is replaced with an output signal, it does not work.
      – Bill Mahoney
      Sep 8 at 13:27
















    • This works nicely for a single gate. However, with a gate array, where the LED is replaced with an output signal, it does not work.
      – Bill Mahoney
      Sep 8 at 13:27















    This works nicely for a single gate. However, with a gate array, where the LED is replaced with an output signal, it does not work.
    – Bill Mahoney
    Sep 8 at 13:27




    This works nicely for a single gate. However, with a gate array, where the LED is replaced with an output signal, it does not work.
    – Bill Mahoney
    Sep 8 at 13:27












    up vote
    2
    down vote













    This is just a note on your AND gate design. You can use CircuitLab's simulator to help understand your circuit.





    schematic





    simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab



    Figure 1. The simulator needs a circuit GND as a reference for its calculations. I've added it to supply negative which is the usual location.



    enter image description here



    Figure 2. The original circuit.



    With the addition of some nodes for voltage measurement the DC Solver shows us that when both transistors are on that the most current through the LED will be about 0.4 mA. This is mostly due to the voltage drop across R1. You can add in another node on the LED to check what voltage it is seeing.



    Note the voltage drops between NODE1, NODE4 and NODE5.



    enter image description here



    Figure 3. R1 has been reduced to 100 Ω.



    Now, at least, we get 7 mA through the LED and it should be good and bright.



    Notice that there is a significant voltage drop on each transistor of about 0.7 V each. You have only 2.5 V on your output. You should be able to see that this isn't going to scale well for a 3 or 4-input AND gate.



    You can experiment with the simulator in your schematics to understand further what happens when you disconnect one of the inputs. Don't forget to add a GND.




    At least one of the other answers has pointed out that the load should be in the collector side of Q1. The reason is that the transistors can be driven into saturation and the voltage drop across each is very low.



    enter image description here



    Figure 3. Low-side switching results in much lower voltage drop across the transistors.






    share|improve this answer
























      up vote
      2
      down vote













      This is just a note on your AND gate design. You can use CircuitLab's simulator to help understand your circuit.





      schematic





      simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab



      Figure 1. The simulator needs a circuit GND as a reference for its calculations. I've added it to supply negative which is the usual location.



      enter image description here



      Figure 2. The original circuit.



      With the addition of some nodes for voltage measurement the DC Solver shows us that when both transistors are on that the most current through the LED will be about 0.4 mA. This is mostly due to the voltage drop across R1. You can add in another node on the LED to check what voltage it is seeing.



      Note the voltage drops between NODE1, NODE4 and NODE5.



      enter image description here



      Figure 3. R1 has been reduced to 100 Ω.



      Now, at least, we get 7 mA through the LED and it should be good and bright.



      Notice that there is a significant voltage drop on each transistor of about 0.7 V each. You have only 2.5 V on your output. You should be able to see that this isn't going to scale well for a 3 or 4-input AND gate.



      You can experiment with the simulator in your schematics to understand further what happens when you disconnect one of the inputs. Don't forget to add a GND.




      At least one of the other answers has pointed out that the load should be in the collector side of Q1. The reason is that the transistors can be driven into saturation and the voltage drop across each is very low.



      enter image description here



      Figure 3. Low-side switching results in much lower voltage drop across the transistors.






      share|improve this answer






















        up vote
        2
        down vote










        up vote
        2
        down vote









        This is just a note on your AND gate design. You can use CircuitLab's simulator to help understand your circuit.





        schematic





        simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab



        Figure 1. The simulator needs a circuit GND as a reference for its calculations. I've added it to supply negative which is the usual location.



        enter image description here



        Figure 2. The original circuit.



        With the addition of some nodes for voltage measurement the DC Solver shows us that when both transistors are on that the most current through the LED will be about 0.4 mA. This is mostly due to the voltage drop across R1. You can add in another node on the LED to check what voltage it is seeing.



        Note the voltage drops between NODE1, NODE4 and NODE5.



        enter image description here



        Figure 3. R1 has been reduced to 100 Ω.



        Now, at least, we get 7 mA through the LED and it should be good and bright.



        Notice that there is a significant voltage drop on each transistor of about 0.7 V each. You have only 2.5 V on your output. You should be able to see that this isn't going to scale well for a 3 or 4-input AND gate.



        You can experiment with the simulator in your schematics to understand further what happens when you disconnect one of the inputs. Don't forget to add a GND.




        At least one of the other answers has pointed out that the load should be in the collector side of Q1. The reason is that the transistors can be driven into saturation and the voltage drop across each is very low.



        enter image description here



        Figure 3. Low-side switching results in much lower voltage drop across the transistors.






        share|improve this answer












        This is just a note on your AND gate design. You can use CircuitLab's simulator to help understand your circuit.





        schematic





        simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab



        Figure 1. The simulator needs a circuit GND as a reference for its calculations. I've added it to supply negative which is the usual location.



        enter image description here



        Figure 2. The original circuit.



        With the addition of some nodes for voltage measurement the DC Solver shows us that when both transistors are on that the most current through the LED will be about 0.4 mA. This is mostly due to the voltage drop across R1. You can add in another node on the LED to check what voltage it is seeing.



        Note the voltage drops between NODE1, NODE4 and NODE5.



        enter image description here



        Figure 3. R1 has been reduced to 100 Ω.



        Now, at least, we get 7 mA through the LED and it should be good and bright.



        Notice that there is a significant voltage drop on each transistor of about 0.7 V each. You have only 2.5 V on your output. You should be able to see that this isn't going to scale well for a 3 or 4-input AND gate.



        You can experiment with the simulator in your schematics to understand further what happens when you disconnect one of the inputs. Don't forget to add a GND.




        At least one of the other answers has pointed out that the load should be in the collector side of Q1. The reason is that the transistors can be driven into saturation and the voltage drop across each is very low.



        enter image description here



        Figure 3. Low-side switching results in much lower voltage drop across the transistors.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered Sep 8 at 7:53









        Transistor

        73.8k571160




        73.8k571160



























             

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