V.I. Arnold says Russian students can't solve this problem, but American students can â why?
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In a book of word problems by V.I Arnold, the following appears:
- The hypotenuse of a right-angled triangle (in a standard American examination) is 10 inches, the altitude dropped onto it is 6 inches. Find the area of the triangle.
American school students had been coping successfully with this problem for over a decade. But then Russian school students arrived from Moscow, and none of them was able to solve it as had their American peers (giving 30 square inches as the answer). Why?
Here's the book. I assume the answer is some joke at the expense of the Americans, but I don't get it. Possibly a joke about inches? Anyone?
geometry triangle area word-problem
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In a book of word problems by V.I Arnold, the following appears:
- The hypotenuse of a right-angled triangle (in a standard American examination) is 10 inches, the altitude dropped onto it is 6 inches. Find the area of the triangle.
American school students had been coping successfully with this problem for over a decade. But then Russian school students arrived from Moscow, and none of them was able to solve it as had their American peers (giving 30 square inches as the answer). Why?
Here's the book. I assume the answer is some joke at the expense of the Americans, but I don't get it. Possibly a joke about inches? Anyone?
geometry triangle area word-problem
47
The joke is at the Americans expence (naively applying formulas without thinking). Hint: Try to compute what the other two sides of the triangle must be given this information.
â Winther
Dec 31 '15 at 5:46
97
Oh, I figured it had something to do with American teenage boys always lying about things that are 6 inches being 10 inches.
â fleablood
Dec 31 '15 at 5:51
21
@ElliotG: I think this can be spun whatever way you want -- perhaps Americans do not assume that their teacher is constantly trying to punk them.
â Eli Rose
Dec 31 '15 at 5:59
41
I'd quibble that a triangle with a side (hypotenuse or otherwise) of 10 and an altitude to that side 6 then if we are given such a triangle the area is 30. That such a triangle is impossible isn't my fault. We weren't asked can such a triangle exist; we were asked given such a triangle what would they area be. And it would be 30.
â fleablood
Dec 31 '15 at 6:03
76
Am I the only one who had to look up what an "altitude" meant in this context? I've only ever seen it referred to as the "height" of a triangle, as in the usual "area = base * height / 2" formula... is this US-specific terminology or something?
â Thomas
Dec 31 '15 at 11:52
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up vote
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up vote
242
down vote
favorite
In a book of word problems by V.I Arnold, the following appears:
- The hypotenuse of a right-angled triangle (in a standard American examination) is 10 inches, the altitude dropped onto it is 6 inches. Find the area of the triangle.
American school students had been coping successfully with this problem for over a decade. But then Russian school students arrived from Moscow, and none of them was able to solve it as had their American peers (giving 30 square inches as the answer). Why?
Here's the book. I assume the answer is some joke at the expense of the Americans, but I don't get it. Possibly a joke about inches? Anyone?
geometry triangle area word-problem
In a book of word problems by V.I Arnold, the following appears:
- The hypotenuse of a right-angled triangle (in a standard American examination) is 10 inches, the altitude dropped onto it is 6 inches. Find the area of the triangle.
American school students had been coping successfully with this problem for over a decade. But then Russian school students arrived from Moscow, and none of them was able to solve it as had their American peers (giving 30 square inches as the answer). Why?
Here's the book. I assume the answer is some joke at the expense of the Americans, but I don't get it. Possibly a joke about inches? Anyone?
geometry triangle area word-problem
edited Dec 31 '15 at 8:42
Martin Sleziak
43.6k6113259
43.6k6113259
asked Dec 31 '15 at 5:41
Eli Rose
5,26831229
5,26831229
47
The joke is at the Americans expence (naively applying formulas without thinking). Hint: Try to compute what the other two sides of the triangle must be given this information.
â Winther
Dec 31 '15 at 5:46
97
Oh, I figured it had something to do with American teenage boys always lying about things that are 6 inches being 10 inches.
â fleablood
Dec 31 '15 at 5:51
21
@ElliotG: I think this can be spun whatever way you want -- perhaps Americans do not assume that their teacher is constantly trying to punk them.
â Eli Rose
Dec 31 '15 at 5:59
41
I'd quibble that a triangle with a side (hypotenuse or otherwise) of 10 and an altitude to that side 6 then if we are given such a triangle the area is 30. That such a triangle is impossible isn't my fault. We weren't asked can such a triangle exist; we were asked given such a triangle what would they area be. And it would be 30.
â fleablood
Dec 31 '15 at 6:03
76
Am I the only one who had to look up what an "altitude" meant in this context? I've only ever seen it referred to as the "height" of a triangle, as in the usual "area = base * height / 2" formula... is this US-specific terminology or something?
â Thomas
Dec 31 '15 at 11:52
 |Â
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47
The joke is at the Americans expence (naively applying formulas without thinking). Hint: Try to compute what the other two sides of the triangle must be given this information.
â Winther
Dec 31 '15 at 5:46
97
Oh, I figured it had something to do with American teenage boys always lying about things that are 6 inches being 10 inches.
â fleablood
Dec 31 '15 at 5:51
21
@ElliotG: I think this can be spun whatever way you want -- perhaps Americans do not assume that their teacher is constantly trying to punk them.
â Eli Rose
Dec 31 '15 at 5:59
41
I'd quibble that a triangle with a side (hypotenuse or otherwise) of 10 and an altitude to that side 6 then if we are given such a triangle the area is 30. That such a triangle is impossible isn't my fault. We weren't asked can such a triangle exist; we were asked given such a triangle what would they area be. And it would be 30.
â fleablood
Dec 31 '15 at 6:03
76
Am I the only one who had to look up what an "altitude" meant in this context? I've only ever seen it referred to as the "height" of a triangle, as in the usual "area = base * height / 2" formula... is this US-specific terminology or something?
â Thomas
Dec 31 '15 at 11:52
47
47
The joke is at the Americans expence (naively applying formulas without thinking). Hint: Try to compute what the other two sides of the triangle must be given this information.
â Winther
Dec 31 '15 at 5:46
The joke is at the Americans expence (naively applying formulas without thinking). Hint: Try to compute what the other two sides of the triangle must be given this information.
â Winther
Dec 31 '15 at 5:46
97
97
Oh, I figured it had something to do with American teenage boys always lying about things that are 6 inches being 10 inches.
â fleablood
Dec 31 '15 at 5:51
Oh, I figured it had something to do with American teenage boys always lying about things that are 6 inches being 10 inches.
â fleablood
Dec 31 '15 at 5:51
21
21
@ElliotG: I think this can be spun whatever way you want -- perhaps Americans do not assume that their teacher is constantly trying to punk them.
â Eli Rose
Dec 31 '15 at 5:59
@ElliotG: I think this can be spun whatever way you want -- perhaps Americans do not assume that their teacher is constantly trying to punk them.
â Eli Rose
Dec 31 '15 at 5:59
41
41
I'd quibble that a triangle with a side (hypotenuse or otherwise) of 10 and an altitude to that side 6 then if we are given such a triangle the area is 30. That such a triangle is impossible isn't my fault. We weren't asked can such a triangle exist; we were asked given such a triangle what would they area be. And it would be 30.
â fleablood
Dec 31 '15 at 6:03
I'd quibble that a triangle with a side (hypotenuse or otherwise) of 10 and an altitude to that side 6 then if we are given such a triangle the area is 30. That such a triangle is impossible isn't my fault. We weren't asked can such a triangle exist; we were asked given such a triangle what would they area be. And it would be 30.
â fleablood
Dec 31 '15 at 6:03
76
76
Am I the only one who had to look up what an "altitude" meant in this context? I've only ever seen it referred to as the "height" of a triangle, as in the usual "area = base * height / 2" formula... is this US-specific terminology or something?
â Thomas
Dec 31 '15 at 11:52
Am I the only one who had to look up what an "altitude" meant in this context? I've only ever seen it referred to as the "height" of a triangle, as in the usual "area = base * height / 2" formula... is this US-specific terminology or something?
â Thomas
Dec 31 '15 at 11:52
 |Â
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8 Answers
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There is no such right triangle. The maximum possible altitude is half the hypotenuse (inscribe the triangle into a circle to see this), which here is $5$ inches. You would only get $30$ square inches if you tried to compute the area without checking whether the triangle actually exists.
8
Ah. Yep, he loves that kind of thing. Thanks for telling me how to see the maximum possible altitude thing, I didn't know that.
â Eli Rose
Dec 31 '15 at 5:55
9
What about non euclidean geometry (I may be overanalyzing, but overanalyzing is fun)?
â PyRulez
Dec 31 '15 at 20:56
12
@Peter: one of the Americans and the Russians are mindlessly applying formulas and getting $30$ square inches, while the other is checking whether the triangle exists and getting confused. But the way the joke is written I can't tell which is which.
â Qiaochu Yuan
Jan 1 '16 at 21:32
6
@PeterFranek (and QiaochuYuan): To clarify the original English: firstly, in âÂÂBut then Russian school students arrived from Moscow, and none of them was able to solve itâ the phrase âÂÂnone of themâ refers to âÂÂRussian school studentsâÂÂ, so it means that âÂÂnone of the Russian students was able to solve itâÂÂ. Secondly, âÂÂas had their American peersâ means âÂÂas the American students had been able to solve itâÂÂ, as the previous sentence said. (âÂÂPeersâ = âÂÂequalsâÂÂ; âÂÂsuccessfullyâ is ironic.) Thus the Americans were mindless while the Russians were checking whether the triangle existed.
â PJTraill
Jan 4 '16 at 20:48
22
Even through Arnold probably meant to denounce the calculation as "mindless", I don't think that is a fair characterization. Real life is full of problems where you have an abundance of data about a situation already and need to figure out the simplest way to read out some missing information from them, identifying the subset of the data you need for finding what you seek. It is unproductive and wasteful to insist on approaching all such situations by verifying from first principles that the givens are internally consistent before you even start to consider the actual problem.
â Henning Makholm
Jan 5 '16 at 0:38
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There are many ways to prove that such triangle does not exist. I am using a different approach.
Suppose that the said right angled triangle can be formed. Then, we are interested in where should the foot of the said altitude (CD) be? [That is, how far is D (on AB) from A (or from B)?]
We assume that D is $alpha$ and $beta$ units from A and B respectively.
Clearly, we have $alpha + beta = 10$ â¦â¦ (1)
Also, by a fact on right angled triangles, we have $alpha beta= 6^2$ â¦â¦â¦ (2)
EDIT : That fact is "Power of a point".
To find $alpha$ and $beta$ is equivalent to solving the quadratic equation $x^2 â 10x + 36 = 0$.
Since the discriminant $(= [-10]^2 - 4 times 36)$ is negative , we can conclude that such roots ($alpha$ and $beta$) are not real.
4
how did you generate such a nice diagram?
â Fattie
Dec 31 '15 at 15:17
9
@JoeBlow Using Geogebra. Image is then sent to WORD via the clipboard. After re-sizing, the adjusted image is then sent to PC Paintbrush for the final touch. It (*.png) is then uploaded.
â Mick
Dec 31 '15 at 18:05
4
i am really confused, it is clear thta $alpha+beta=10$ but how did yyou find $alpha beta=6^2=36$ i mean what geometry did you used to get eq(2)?
â Bhaskara-III
Dec 31 '15 at 18:12
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@Bhaskara-III Any right-angled triangle with an altitude so formed is being cut into a total of 3 triangles. These 3 triangles are similar to each other. Setup the corresponding ratios to find out the said relation.
â Mick
Dec 31 '15 at 18:18
2
Picture by Michael Chirico clearly shows that such a right triangle not exits while your picture is showing that such a triangle is constructed. it is also a contradiction between these two pictures here.
â Bhaskara-III
Jan 1 '16 at 16:46
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The red line represents all possible third vertices for triangles with base 10 and height 6;
The blue curve represents all possible third vertices for right triangles with hypotenuse 10.
The two sets have null intersection.
(in fact, the maximum possible third angle 6 units away is $arccos(frac1161)approx$ 79.6ð)
(and yes, technically we should include the corresponding points below the segment as well)
2
I think your answer (along with all other answers, with the exception of the one by @AlanCampbell) has badly misinterpreted the problem. The problem statement says that the altitude "dropped onto the hypotenuse" -- not the one from dropped from the vertex with the right angle -- is 6 inches. Thus, the triangle has sides 6, 8, and 10 inches -- there's no problem at all with such a triangle existing...
â Mico
Jan 4 '16 at 6:15
3
@Mico though I agree it's apparent the author should have been more careful with verbiage, I disagree with you for hair-splitting reasons. the problem states "the altitude"; in the 3-4-5 case it becomes immediately ambiguous as there are in fact three altitudes with an end on the hypotenuse. thinking this way, there is no way the author could get away with using the definite article. the only way we can take the problem as given is to deduce the author in fact meant the altitude corresponding to the right angle.
â MichaelChirico
Jan 4 '16 at 6:23
4
@Mico: what do you think the 'the altitude "dropped onto the hypotenuse"' is intended to mean? As far as I am concerned it is the exact same thing as 'the one from dropped from the vertex with the right angle.' In any triangle there are three altitudes. Each can be specified by either the side on which they are dropped or by the vertex from which the are dropped (or still differently).
â quidâ¦
Jan 4 '16 at 20:03
I'll add that this could well be a quibble that is simply something lost in translation (I take it the original quote was in Russian?)... we need a native Russian speaker to comment on whether, in the original Russian, this ambiguity existed in the first place. Until the ambiguity is confirmed in the original Russian, this is simply a poor translation.
â MichaelChirico
Jan 4 '16 at 20:13
@MichaelChirico you're too kind; I followed exactly the same train of thought as you, except I attributed the odd grammar to either a poor translation or a non-native speaker doing the best they could. This subconscious hypothesis was reinforced by the odd syntax/ambiguity in the "as had their Russican peers" statement.
â pjz
Jan 4 '16 at 21:17
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By mistake, one can fairly easily calculate the area of given right triangle as $frac12(10)(6)=30$ but this is incorrect. Why? Perhaps, this is the intuition behind the question that one should first check the existence of such a right triangle with given data before calculating area.
A right triangle with hypotenuse $10$ & an altitude of $6$ drawn to it doesn't exist because the maximum possible length of altitude drawn to the hypotenuse is $5$ i.e. half the length of hypotenuse. Here is an analytic proof to check existence of such a right triangle.
Statement: The maximum length of altitude, drawn from right angled vertex to the hypotenuse of length $a$ in a right triangle, is $a/2$ i.e. half the length of hypotenuse.
Proof: Let $x$ & $y$ be the legs (of variable length) of the right triangle having hypotenuse $a$ (known value) then using Pythagorean theorem, one should have $$x^2+y^2=10^2$$ $$y^2=a^2-x^2tag 1$$
Now, the length of altitude say $p$ drawn to the hypotenuse in right triangle is given as $$=colorbluefrac(textleg_1)times (textleg_2)(texthypotenuse)=fracxya$$ $$implies p=fracxya$$$$iff a^2p^2=x^2y^2tag 2$$
let $a^2p^2=P$ (some other variable ), now setting value of $y^2$ from (1), $$P=x^2(a^2-x^2)=a^2x^2-x^4$$ $$fracdPdx=2a^2x-4x^3$$
$$fracd^2Pdx^2=2a^2-12x^2tag 3$$
For maxima or minima, setting $fracdPdx=0$, $$2a^2x-4x^3=0implies x=0,fracasqrt 2, -fracasqrt 2$$, But $x>0$, hence $x=fracasqrt 2$. Now, setting this value of $x$ in (3),
$$fracd^2Pdx^2=2a^2-12left(fracasqrt 2right)^2=-4a^2<0$$ hence, $P$ i.e. $a^2p^2$ is maximum at $x=fracasqrt 2$ hence, from (1), the corresponding value of $y$, $$y=sqrta^2-fraca^22=fracasqrt 2$$
hence, the maximum possible length of altitude drawn (from right angled vertex ) to the hypotenuse, $$colorredp=fracxya=fracfracasqrt 2fracasqrt 2a=colorredfraca2$$
So if the length of altitude $p$ is greater than $fraca2$ (half the length of hypotenuse) then such a right triangle doesn't exist.
1
"A right triangle with hypotenuse 100 & an altitude of 6" I guess there's a typo and should say 10. Great explanation though.
â Masclins
Dec 31 '15 at 7:50
5
An easier proof would be to draw a Thales' circle around the hypotenuse and note that it has no point 6 inches away from the hypotenuse.
â John Dvorak
Dec 31 '15 at 10:20
6
An easier proof would be to note that $a = sqrtx^2+y^2$ and height/hypotenuse $= fracxyx^2+y^2 le frac12 $ by AM GM inequality.
â Ishan Banerjee
Dec 31 '15 at 12:23
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Calculus is a bit overkill for such a simple proof, see @Mick answer
â mattecapu
Dec 31 '15 at 13:53
3
Calculus is used just to show the result analytically.
â Harish Chandra Rajpoot
Jan 1 '16 at 19:33
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Interesting - I had forgotten what an altitude was. Wikipedia says:
In geometry, an altitude of a triangle is a line segment through a vertex and perpendicular to (i.e. forming a right angle with) a line containing the base (the opposite side of the triangle). This line containing the opposite side is called the extended base of the altitude.
Who said the hypotenuse was the base? Why can't the altitude be equal to one side of the triangle?
This is a 3-4-5 right angled triangle. Or, to be precise: a 6-8-10 triangle. Hypotenuse is 10 inches, "altitude" (or height) is 6 inches, so the base is 8 inches.
Area is: 1/2 * (6) * (8) = 24 square inches.
If you insist on defining altitude as the distance from right-angled vertex to the hypotenuse, you get the problems others have already discussed.
Edit: An altitude is at right-angle to a side, and connects a side to a vertex. In this case we have an (unspecified) base, an altitude of 6 inches, and a 10 inch hypotenuse.
If the base is horizontal, and the altitude "drops" from the end, making a right-angle, then it contacts the hypotenuse line at the very end. The right-angle required of an altitude is formed at the base end, not the hypotenuse end.
5
I'm with Alan in that: "I had no clue that 'altitude' is apparently used in such a well-agreed way, indeed, I rather disagree that it is such a well-agreed term". However Alan, I'd point out that it is indeed meant to be a joke. The joke only "makes sense" if one interprets it in the obvious way. (One could say, it's not for example an engineering description where we'd all assert "don't use such vague terminology".) Also if I'm not mistaken it comes from an earlier historical period (and indeed from Russia?) so it's reasonable to have to tease-out that meaning, I think.
â Fattie
Dec 31 '15 at 15:23
28
The question doesn't just mention "an (or the) altitude", it mentions "the hypotenuse ... and the altitude dropped onto it". There is only one altitude dropped onto the hypotenuse, and that is the one from the right-angle.
â IanF1
Dec 31 '15 at 15:55
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The formulation says âÂÂThe altitude dropped onto itâ (i.e. the hypotenuse) â isâÂÂ.
â PJTraill
Dec 31 '15 at 16:31
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@Alan: every triangle has three altitudes, one perpendicular to each side. For a right triangle, the two legs are each other's altitudes, but the problem clearly refers to the third altitude, the one dropped onto (and hence perpendicular to) the hypotenuse, which is neither of the legs. This is completely standard terminology as far as I know.
â Qiaochu Yuan
Dec 31 '15 at 19:19
10
This was my interpretation, too. I had never heard the phrase 'altitude dropped onto' the hypotenuse of a right triangle and figured this was a side and it was a 6-8-10 right triangle with area 24. I certainly believe Qiaochu that this is standard terminology, but I was an American student and it's not something I ever remember hearing.
â Adam Acosta
Jan 1 '16 at 0:49
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Here a non-Euclidian answer to the question
The depicted sphere has a circumference of length 40, and thus a radius of $frac20pi$. The points $A$ and $B$ are located on the equator, and $C$ is located on a pole.
Now $triangle ABC$ is a right triangle (it even has two right angles), since all meridians intersect the equator perpendicularly.
Define $AC$ to be the hypothenusa, with length $10$. The height, being the shortest distance from $B$ to its hypothenusa $AC$ is then indeed $6$.
As $triangle ABC$ covers $frac640$ of the upper hemisphere, its area is:
$$A_texttriangle = frac640timesfrac12times 4pi r^2 = frac120pi$$
$blacksquare$
5
This has got to be the correct answer. Arnold's finest joke.
â PatrickT
Aug 27 '16 at 7:21
1
i have edited a little thanks
â Bhaskara-III
Sep 21 '16 at 10:33
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It is one of several different possible non-Euclidian answers.
â Klaws
Jan 26 at 16:07
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Let $ABC$ be a right angled triangle with hypotenuse $AC=10$, base $BA=y$(say) and perpendicular $CB=x$ (say). Drop perpendicular $BD=6$ (if it exists) on $AB$. It is easy to see that $Delta ABCsim Delta ADB$ then using ratios,
$fraczy=frac6x=fracy10$
From last two ratios, $xy=60$
Also $x^2+y^2=10^2$ as $ABC$ is right angled at $B$.
This gives $x^2+(60/x)^2=100$ or $x^4-100x^2+3600=0$ which has no real roots.
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This is from a paper full of trick questions, so likely, is criticizing the American students. The crux of the problem is whether the discrepancy is noticed, and how it is handled.
In middle school, kids are taught a simplified formula,
triangle area = 1/2 * b * h, or area equals base times height.
In Geometry, the full version is taught, A = 1/2 * b * a ==> area = 1/2 * base (any side of triangle) * altitude (line perpendicular to base and going to opposite vertex). The definitions of base and altitude are critical and repeatedly taught. They have been standard since the time of Euclid, but teaching the simplified version causes confusion.
Using this formula, the 30 inches square area would be true for a triangle with hypotenuse of 10 and corresponding altitude of 6.
Kids are taught that the sides of a right triangle with hypotenuse length 10 and a side of 6 is a Pythagorian Triple, 6:8:10. For this 6:8:10 triangle, 6 and 8 are perpendicular and thus altitudes of each other, the area = 1/2 * 6 * 8 = 24. The altitude for the hypotenuse can be found by area = 24 = 1/2 * 10 * altitude, and altitude = 4.8 inches.
Thus, using simple tools taught to the students, the "altitude 6" triangle cannot be a right triangle, since the right triangle with side 6 and hypotenuse 10 has a side of 6, not the altitude to the hypotenuse. Expecting complicated proofs from secondary students is unreasonable, but applying the Pythagorean Theorem and area formulae are standard.
The typical student probably sees the 6 and 10 as parts of a Pythagorean Triple and "knows" it is a right triangle, then finds the obvious area without further thought. Thus, answering the question as 30 could imply sloppy work or lack of knowledge or understanding.
Alternately, it could be that the American students saw the discrepancy, and made a judgement call on how to answer a test question, assuming a typographical error.
PS, Yuan's inscribing the triangle in a circle to determine the maximum possible altitude to the hypotenuse is simple, brilliant, and uses concepts taught in Geometry!
3
It would be better to not use abbreviations so that your answer is clearer. Also MathJax.
â 6005
Dec 31 '15 at 6:55
11
There are many right triangles with hypotenuse $10$ but the legs not $6$, $8$.
â user236182
Dec 31 '15 at 8:57
@user but none of them have integer-sized legs
â John Dvorak
Dec 31 '15 at 12:01
6
@JanDvorak the question doesn't mention integer-sized legs.
â IanF1
Dec 31 '15 at 15:56
@ian indeed, but integer-sized legs are what most students expect. Not valid reasoning, but some students might have followed it anyways.
â John Dvorak
Dec 31 '15 at 15:59
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There is no such right triangle. The maximum possible altitude is half the hypotenuse (inscribe the triangle into a circle to see this), which here is $5$ inches. You would only get $30$ square inches if you tried to compute the area without checking whether the triangle actually exists.
8
Ah. Yep, he loves that kind of thing. Thanks for telling me how to see the maximum possible altitude thing, I didn't know that.
â Eli Rose
Dec 31 '15 at 5:55
9
What about non euclidean geometry (I may be overanalyzing, but overanalyzing is fun)?
â PyRulez
Dec 31 '15 at 20:56
12
@Peter: one of the Americans and the Russians are mindlessly applying formulas and getting $30$ square inches, while the other is checking whether the triangle exists and getting confused. But the way the joke is written I can't tell which is which.
â Qiaochu Yuan
Jan 1 '16 at 21:32
6
@PeterFranek (and QiaochuYuan): To clarify the original English: firstly, in âÂÂBut then Russian school students arrived from Moscow, and none of them was able to solve itâ the phrase âÂÂnone of themâ refers to âÂÂRussian school studentsâÂÂ, so it means that âÂÂnone of the Russian students was able to solve itâÂÂ. Secondly, âÂÂas had their American peersâ means âÂÂas the American students had been able to solve itâÂÂ, as the previous sentence said. (âÂÂPeersâ = âÂÂequalsâÂÂ; âÂÂsuccessfullyâ is ironic.) Thus the Americans were mindless while the Russians were checking whether the triangle existed.
â PJTraill
Jan 4 '16 at 20:48
22
Even through Arnold probably meant to denounce the calculation as "mindless", I don't think that is a fair characterization. Real life is full of problems where you have an abundance of data about a situation already and need to figure out the simplest way to read out some missing information from them, identifying the subset of the data you need for finding what you seek. It is unproductive and wasteful to insist on approaching all such situations by verifying from first principles that the givens are internally consistent before you even start to consider the actual problem.
â Henning Makholm
Jan 5 '16 at 0:38
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There is no such right triangle. The maximum possible altitude is half the hypotenuse (inscribe the triangle into a circle to see this), which here is $5$ inches. You would only get $30$ square inches if you tried to compute the area without checking whether the triangle actually exists.
8
Ah. Yep, he loves that kind of thing. Thanks for telling me how to see the maximum possible altitude thing, I didn't know that.
â Eli Rose
Dec 31 '15 at 5:55
9
What about non euclidean geometry (I may be overanalyzing, but overanalyzing is fun)?
â PyRulez
Dec 31 '15 at 20:56
12
@Peter: one of the Americans and the Russians are mindlessly applying formulas and getting $30$ square inches, while the other is checking whether the triangle exists and getting confused. But the way the joke is written I can't tell which is which.
â Qiaochu Yuan
Jan 1 '16 at 21:32
6
@PeterFranek (and QiaochuYuan): To clarify the original English: firstly, in âÂÂBut then Russian school students arrived from Moscow, and none of them was able to solve itâ the phrase âÂÂnone of themâ refers to âÂÂRussian school studentsâÂÂ, so it means that âÂÂnone of the Russian students was able to solve itâÂÂ. Secondly, âÂÂas had their American peersâ means âÂÂas the American students had been able to solve itâÂÂ, as the previous sentence said. (âÂÂPeersâ = âÂÂequalsâÂÂ; âÂÂsuccessfullyâ is ironic.) Thus the Americans were mindless while the Russians were checking whether the triangle existed.
â PJTraill
Jan 4 '16 at 20:48
22
Even through Arnold probably meant to denounce the calculation as "mindless", I don't think that is a fair characterization. Real life is full of problems where you have an abundance of data about a situation already and need to figure out the simplest way to read out some missing information from them, identifying the subset of the data you need for finding what you seek. It is unproductive and wasteful to insist on approaching all such situations by verifying from first principles that the givens are internally consistent before you even start to consider the actual problem.
â Henning Makholm
Jan 5 '16 at 0:38
 |Â
show 4 more comments
up vote
228
down vote
accepted
up vote
228
down vote
accepted
There is no such right triangle. The maximum possible altitude is half the hypotenuse (inscribe the triangle into a circle to see this), which here is $5$ inches. You would only get $30$ square inches if you tried to compute the area without checking whether the triangle actually exists.
There is no such right triangle. The maximum possible altitude is half the hypotenuse (inscribe the triangle into a circle to see this), which here is $5$ inches. You would only get $30$ square inches if you tried to compute the area without checking whether the triangle actually exists.
edited Dec 31 '15 at 6:17
answered Dec 31 '15 at 5:48
Qiaochu Yuan
269k32564899
269k32564899
8
Ah. Yep, he loves that kind of thing. Thanks for telling me how to see the maximum possible altitude thing, I didn't know that.
â Eli Rose
Dec 31 '15 at 5:55
9
What about non euclidean geometry (I may be overanalyzing, but overanalyzing is fun)?
â PyRulez
Dec 31 '15 at 20:56
12
@Peter: one of the Americans and the Russians are mindlessly applying formulas and getting $30$ square inches, while the other is checking whether the triangle exists and getting confused. But the way the joke is written I can't tell which is which.
â Qiaochu Yuan
Jan 1 '16 at 21:32
6
@PeterFranek (and QiaochuYuan): To clarify the original English: firstly, in âÂÂBut then Russian school students arrived from Moscow, and none of them was able to solve itâ the phrase âÂÂnone of themâ refers to âÂÂRussian school studentsâÂÂ, so it means that âÂÂnone of the Russian students was able to solve itâÂÂ. Secondly, âÂÂas had their American peersâ means âÂÂas the American students had been able to solve itâÂÂ, as the previous sentence said. (âÂÂPeersâ = âÂÂequalsâÂÂ; âÂÂsuccessfullyâ is ironic.) Thus the Americans were mindless while the Russians were checking whether the triangle existed.
â PJTraill
Jan 4 '16 at 20:48
22
Even through Arnold probably meant to denounce the calculation as "mindless", I don't think that is a fair characterization. Real life is full of problems where you have an abundance of data about a situation already and need to figure out the simplest way to read out some missing information from them, identifying the subset of the data you need for finding what you seek. It is unproductive and wasteful to insist on approaching all such situations by verifying from first principles that the givens are internally consistent before you even start to consider the actual problem.
â Henning Makholm
Jan 5 '16 at 0:38
 |Â
show 4 more comments
8
Ah. Yep, he loves that kind of thing. Thanks for telling me how to see the maximum possible altitude thing, I didn't know that.
â Eli Rose
Dec 31 '15 at 5:55
9
What about non euclidean geometry (I may be overanalyzing, but overanalyzing is fun)?
â PyRulez
Dec 31 '15 at 20:56
12
@Peter: one of the Americans and the Russians are mindlessly applying formulas and getting $30$ square inches, while the other is checking whether the triangle exists and getting confused. But the way the joke is written I can't tell which is which.
â Qiaochu Yuan
Jan 1 '16 at 21:32
6
@PeterFranek (and QiaochuYuan): To clarify the original English: firstly, in âÂÂBut then Russian school students arrived from Moscow, and none of them was able to solve itâ the phrase âÂÂnone of themâ refers to âÂÂRussian school studentsâÂÂ, so it means that âÂÂnone of the Russian students was able to solve itâÂÂ. Secondly, âÂÂas had their American peersâ means âÂÂas the American students had been able to solve itâÂÂ, as the previous sentence said. (âÂÂPeersâ = âÂÂequalsâÂÂ; âÂÂsuccessfullyâ is ironic.) Thus the Americans were mindless while the Russians were checking whether the triangle existed.
â PJTraill
Jan 4 '16 at 20:48
22
Even through Arnold probably meant to denounce the calculation as "mindless", I don't think that is a fair characterization. Real life is full of problems where you have an abundance of data about a situation already and need to figure out the simplest way to read out some missing information from them, identifying the subset of the data you need for finding what you seek. It is unproductive and wasteful to insist on approaching all such situations by verifying from first principles that the givens are internally consistent before you even start to consider the actual problem.
â Henning Makholm
Jan 5 '16 at 0:38
8
8
Ah. Yep, he loves that kind of thing. Thanks for telling me how to see the maximum possible altitude thing, I didn't know that.
â Eli Rose
Dec 31 '15 at 5:55
Ah. Yep, he loves that kind of thing. Thanks for telling me how to see the maximum possible altitude thing, I didn't know that.
â Eli Rose
Dec 31 '15 at 5:55
9
9
What about non euclidean geometry (I may be overanalyzing, but overanalyzing is fun)?
â PyRulez
Dec 31 '15 at 20:56
What about non euclidean geometry (I may be overanalyzing, but overanalyzing is fun)?
â PyRulez
Dec 31 '15 at 20:56
12
12
@Peter: one of the Americans and the Russians are mindlessly applying formulas and getting $30$ square inches, while the other is checking whether the triangle exists and getting confused. But the way the joke is written I can't tell which is which.
â Qiaochu Yuan
Jan 1 '16 at 21:32
@Peter: one of the Americans and the Russians are mindlessly applying formulas and getting $30$ square inches, while the other is checking whether the triangle exists and getting confused. But the way the joke is written I can't tell which is which.
â Qiaochu Yuan
Jan 1 '16 at 21:32
6
6
@PeterFranek (and QiaochuYuan): To clarify the original English: firstly, in âÂÂBut then Russian school students arrived from Moscow, and none of them was able to solve itâ the phrase âÂÂnone of themâ refers to âÂÂRussian school studentsâÂÂ, so it means that âÂÂnone of the Russian students was able to solve itâÂÂ. Secondly, âÂÂas had their American peersâ means âÂÂas the American students had been able to solve itâÂÂ, as the previous sentence said. (âÂÂPeersâ = âÂÂequalsâÂÂ; âÂÂsuccessfullyâ is ironic.) Thus the Americans were mindless while the Russians were checking whether the triangle existed.
â PJTraill
Jan 4 '16 at 20:48
@PeterFranek (and QiaochuYuan): To clarify the original English: firstly, in âÂÂBut then Russian school students arrived from Moscow, and none of them was able to solve itâ the phrase âÂÂnone of themâ refers to âÂÂRussian school studentsâÂÂ, so it means that âÂÂnone of the Russian students was able to solve itâÂÂ. Secondly, âÂÂas had their American peersâ means âÂÂas the American students had been able to solve itâÂÂ, as the previous sentence said. (âÂÂPeersâ = âÂÂequalsâÂÂ; âÂÂsuccessfullyâ is ironic.) Thus the Americans were mindless while the Russians were checking whether the triangle existed.
â PJTraill
Jan 4 '16 at 20:48
22
22
Even through Arnold probably meant to denounce the calculation as "mindless", I don't think that is a fair characterization. Real life is full of problems where you have an abundance of data about a situation already and need to figure out the simplest way to read out some missing information from them, identifying the subset of the data you need for finding what you seek. It is unproductive and wasteful to insist on approaching all such situations by verifying from first principles that the givens are internally consistent before you even start to consider the actual problem.
â Henning Makholm
Jan 5 '16 at 0:38
Even through Arnold probably meant to denounce the calculation as "mindless", I don't think that is a fair characterization. Real life is full of problems where you have an abundance of data about a situation already and need to figure out the simplest way to read out some missing information from them, identifying the subset of the data you need for finding what you seek. It is unproductive and wasteful to insist on approaching all such situations by verifying from first principles that the givens are internally consistent before you even start to consider the actual problem.
â Henning Makholm
Jan 5 '16 at 0:38
 |Â
show 4 more comments
up vote
95
down vote
There are many ways to prove that such triangle does not exist. I am using a different approach.
Suppose that the said right angled triangle can be formed. Then, we are interested in where should the foot of the said altitude (CD) be? [That is, how far is D (on AB) from A (or from B)?]
We assume that D is $alpha$ and $beta$ units from A and B respectively.
Clearly, we have $alpha + beta = 10$ â¦â¦ (1)
Also, by a fact on right angled triangles, we have $alpha beta= 6^2$ â¦â¦â¦ (2)
EDIT : That fact is "Power of a point".
To find $alpha$ and $beta$ is equivalent to solving the quadratic equation $x^2 â 10x + 36 = 0$.
Since the discriminant $(= [-10]^2 - 4 times 36)$ is negative , we can conclude that such roots ($alpha$ and $beta$) are not real.
4
how did you generate such a nice diagram?
â Fattie
Dec 31 '15 at 15:17
9
@JoeBlow Using Geogebra. Image is then sent to WORD via the clipboard. After re-sizing, the adjusted image is then sent to PC Paintbrush for the final touch. It (*.png) is then uploaded.
â Mick
Dec 31 '15 at 18:05
4
i am really confused, it is clear thta $alpha+beta=10$ but how did yyou find $alpha beta=6^2=36$ i mean what geometry did you used to get eq(2)?
â Bhaskara-III
Dec 31 '15 at 18:12
1
@Bhaskara-III Any right-angled triangle with an altitude so formed is being cut into a total of 3 triangles. These 3 triangles are similar to each other. Setup the corresponding ratios to find out the said relation.
â Mick
Dec 31 '15 at 18:18
2
Picture by Michael Chirico clearly shows that such a right triangle not exits while your picture is showing that such a triangle is constructed. it is also a contradiction between these two pictures here.
â Bhaskara-III
Jan 1 '16 at 16:46
 |Â
show 18 more comments
up vote
95
down vote
There are many ways to prove that such triangle does not exist. I am using a different approach.
Suppose that the said right angled triangle can be formed. Then, we are interested in where should the foot of the said altitude (CD) be? [That is, how far is D (on AB) from A (or from B)?]
We assume that D is $alpha$ and $beta$ units from A and B respectively.
Clearly, we have $alpha + beta = 10$ â¦â¦ (1)
Also, by a fact on right angled triangles, we have $alpha beta= 6^2$ â¦â¦â¦ (2)
EDIT : That fact is "Power of a point".
To find $alpha$ and $beta$ is equivalent to solving the quadratic equation $x^2 â 10x + 36 = 0$.
Since the discriminant $(= [-10]^2 - 4 times 36)$ is negative , we can conclude that such roots ($alpha$ and $beta$) are not real.
4
how did you generate such a nice diagram?
â Fattie
Dec 31 '15 at 15:17
9
@JoeBlow Using Geogebra. Image is then sent to WORD via the clipboard. After re-sizing, the adjusted image is then sent to PC Paintbrush for the final touch. It (*.png) is then uploaded.
â Mick
Dec 31 '15 at 18:05
4
i am really confused, it is clear thta $alpha+beta=10$ but how did yyou find $alpha beta=6^2=36$ i mean what geometry did you used to get eq(2)?
â Bhaskara-III
Dec 31 '15 at 18:12
1
@Bhaskara-III Any right-angled triangle with an altitude so formed is being cut into a total of 3 triangles. These 3 triangles are similar to each other. Setup the corresponding ratios to find out the said relation.
â Mick
Dec 31 '15 at 18:18
2
Picture by Michael Chirico clearly shows that such a right triangle not exits while your picture is showing that such a triangle is constructed. it is also a contradiction between these two pictures here.
â Bhaskara-III
Jan 1 '16 at 16:46
 |Â
show 18 more comments
up vote
95
down vote
up vote
95
down vote
There are many ways to prove that such triangle does not exist. I am using a different approach.
Suppose that the said right angled triangle can be formed. Then, we are interested in where should the foot of the said altitude (CD) be? [That is, how far is D (on AB) from A (or from B)?]
We assume that D is $alpha$ and $beta$ units from A and B respectively.
Clearly, we have $alpha + beta = 10$ â¦â¦ (1)
Also, by a fact on right angled triangles, we have $alpha beta= 6^2$ â¦â¦â¦ (2)
EDIT : That fact is "Power of a point".
To find $alpha$ and $beta$ is equivalent to solving the quadratic equation $x^2 â 10x + 36 = 0$.
Since the discriminant $(= [-10]^2 - 4 times 36)$ is negative , we can conclude that such roots ($alpha$ and $beta$) are not real.
There are many ways to prove that such triangle does not exist. I am using a different approach.
Suppose that the said right angled triangle can be formed. Then, we are interested in where should the foot of the said altitude (CD) be? [That is, how far is D (on AB) from A (or from B)?]
We assume that D is $alpha$ and $beta$ units from A and B respectively.
Clearly, we have $alpha + beta = 10$ â¦â¦ (1)
Also, by a fact on right angled triangles, we have $alpha beta= 6^2$ â¦â¦â¦ (2)
EDIT : That fact is "Power of a point".
To find $alpha$ and $beta$ is equivalent to solving the quadratic equation $x^2 â 10x + 36 = 0$.
Since the discriminant $(= [-10]^2 - 4 times 36)$ is negative , we can conclude that such roots ($alpha$ and $beta$) are not real.
edited May 9 '17 at 3:40
answered Dec 31 '15 at 10:45
Mick
11.5k21540
11.5k21540
4
how did you generate such a nice diagram?
â Fattie
Dec 31 '15 at 15:17
9
@JoeBlow Using Geogebra. Image is then sent to WORD via the clipboard. After re-sizing, the adjusted image is then sent to PC Paintbrush for the final touch. It (*.png) is then uploaded.
â Mick
Dec 31 '15 at 18:05
4
i am really confused, it is clear thta $alpha+beta=10$ but how did yyou find $alpha beta=6^2=36$ i mean what geometry did you used to get eq(2)?
â Bhaskara-III
Dec 31 '15 at 18:12
1
@Bhaskara-III Any right-angled triangle with an altitude so formed is being cut into a total of 3 triangles. These 3 triangles are similar to each other. Setup the corresponding ratios to find out the said relation.
â Mick
Dec 31 '15 at 18:18
2
Picture by Michael Chirico clearly shows that such a right triangle not exits while your picture is showing that such a triangle is constructed. it is also a contradiction between these two pictures here.
â Bhaskara-III
Jan 1 '16 at 16:46
 |Â
show 18 more comments
4
how did you generate such a nice diagram?
â Fattie
Dec 31 '15 at 15:17
9
@JoeBlow Using Geogebra. Image is then sent to WORD via the clipboard. After re-sizing, the adjusted image is then sent to PC Paintbrush for the final touch. It (*.png) is then uploaded.
â Mick
Dec 31 '15 at 18:05
4
i am really confused, it is clear thta $alpha+beta=10$ but how did yyou find $alpha beta=6^2=36$ i mean what geometry did you used to get eq(2)?
â Bhaskara-III
Dec 31 '15 at 18:12
1
@Bhaskara-III Any right-angled triangle with an altitude so formed is being cut into a total of 3 triangles. These 3 triangles are similar to each other. Setup the corresponding ratios to find out the said relation.
â Mick
Dec 31 '15 at 18:18
2
Picture by Michael Chirico clearly shows that such a right triangle not exits while your picture is showing that such a triangle is constructed. it is also a contradiction between these two pictures here.
â Bhaskara-III
Jan 1 '16 at 16:46
4
4
how did you generate such a nice diagram?
â Fattie
Dec 31 '15 at 15:17
how did you generate such a nice diagram?
â Fattie
Dec 31 '15 at 15:17
9
9
@JoeBlow Using Geogebra. Image is then sent to WORD via the clipboard. After re-sizing, the adjusted image is then sent to PC Paintbrush for the final touch. It (*.png) is then uploaded.
â Mick
Dec 31 '15 at 18:05
@JoeBlow Using Geogebra. Image is then sent to WORD via the clipboard. After re-sizing, the adjusted image is then sent to PC Paintbrush for the final touch. It (*.png) is then uploaded.
â Mick
Dec 31 '15 at 18:05
4
4
i am really confused, it is clear thta $alpha+beta=10$ but how did yyou find $alpha beta=6^2=36$ i mean what geometry did you used to get eq(2)?
â Bhaskara-III
Dec 31 '15 at 18:12
i am really confused, it is clear thta $alpha+beta=10$ but how did yyou find $alpha beta=6^2=36$ i mean what geometry did you used to get eq(2)?
â Bhaskara-III
Dec 31 '15 at 18:12
1
1
@Bhaskara-III Any right-angled triangle with an altitude so formed is being cut into a total of 3 triangles. These 3 triangles are similar to each other. Setup the corresponding ratios to find out the said relation.
â Mick
Dec 31 '15 at 18:18
@Bhaskara-III Any right-angled triangle with an altitude so formed is being cut into a total of 3 triangles. These 3 triangles are similar to each other. Setup the corresponding ratios to find out the said relation.
â Mick
Dec 31 '15 at 18:18
2
2
Picture by Michael Chirico clearly shows that such a right triangle not exits while your picture is showing that such a triangle is constructed. it is also a contradiction between these two pictures here.
â Bhaskara-III
Jan 1 '16 at 16:46
Picture by Michael Chirico clearly shows that such a right triangle not exits while your picture is showing that such a triangle is constructed. it is also a contradiction between these two pictures here.
â Bhaskara-III
Jan 1 '16 at 16:46
 |Â
show 18 more comments
up vote
77
down vote
The red line represents all possible third vertices for triangles with base 10 and height 6;
The blue curve represents all possible third vertices for right triangles with hypotenuse 10.
The two sets have null intersection.
(in fact, the maximum possible third angle 6 units away is $arccos(frac1161)approx$ 79.6ð)
(and yes, technically we should include the corresponding points below the segment as well)
2
I think your answer (along with all other answers, with the exception of the one by @AlanCampbell) has badly misinterpreted the problem. The problem statement says that the altitude "dropped onto the hypotenuse" -- not the one from dropped from the vertex with the right angle -- is 6 inches. Thus, the triangle has sides 6, 8, and 10 inches -- there's no problem at all with such a triangle existing...
â Mico
Jan 4 '16 at 6:15
3
@Mico though I agree it's apparent the author should have been more careful with verbiage, I disagree with you for hair-splitting reasons. the problem states "the altitude"; in the 3-4-5 case it becomes immediately ambiguous as there are in fact three altitudes with an end on the hypotenuse. thinking this way, there is no way the author could get away with using the definite article. the only way we can take the problem as given is to deduce the author in fact meant the altitude corresponding to the right angle.
â MichaelChirico
Jan 4 '16 at 6:23
4
@Mico: what do you think the 'the altitude "dropped onto the hypotenuse"' is intended to mean? As far as I am concerned it is the exact same thing as 'the one from dropped from the vertex with the right angle.' In any triangle there are three altitudes. Each can be specified by either the side on which they are dropped or by the vertex from which the are dropped (or still differently).
â quidâ¦
Jan 4 '16 at 20:03
I'll add that this could well be a quibble that is simply something lost in translation (I take it the original quote was in Russian?)... we need a native Russian speaker to comment on whether, in the original Russian, this ambiguity existed in the first place. Until the ambiguity is confirmed in the original Russian, this is simply a poor translation.
â MichaelChirico
Jan 4 '16 at 20:13
@MichaelChirico you're too kind; I followed exactly the same train of thought as you, except I attributed the odd grammar to either a poor translation or a non-native speaker doing the best they could. This subconscious hypothesis was reinforced by the odd syntax/ambiguity in the "as had their Russican peers" statement.
â pjz
Jan 4 '16 at 21:17
 |Â
show 2 more comments
up vote
77
down vote
The red line represents all possible third vertices for triangles with base 10 and height 6;
The blue curve represents all possible third vertices for right triangles with hypotenuse 10.
The two sets have null intersection.
(in fact, the maximum possible third angle 6 units away is $arccos(frac1161)approx$ 79.6ð)
(and yes, technically we should include the corresponding points below the segment as well)
2
I think your answer (along with all other answers, with the exception of the one by @AlanCampbell) has badly misinterpreted the problem. The problem statement says that the altitude "dropped onto the hypotenuse" -- not the one from dropped from the vertex with the right angle -- is 6 inches. Thus, the triangle has sides 6, 8, and 10 inches -- there's no problem at all with such a triangle existing...
â Mico
Jan 4 '16 at 6:15
3
@Mico though I agree it's apparent the author should have been more careful with verbiage, I disagree with you for hair-splitting reasons. the problem states "the altitude"; in the 3-4-5 case it becomes immediately ambiguous as there are in fact three altitudes with an end on the hypotenuse. thinking this way, there is no way the author could get away with using the definite article. the only way we can take the problem as given is to deduce the author in fact meant the altitude corresponding to the right angle.
â MichaelChirico
Jan 4 '16 at 6:23
4
@Mico: what do you think the 'the altitude "dropped onto the hypotenuse"' is intended to mean? As far as I am concerned it is the exact same thing as 'the one from dropped from the vertex with the right angle.' In any triangle there are three altitudes. Each can be specified by either the side on which they are dropped or by the vertex from which the are dropped (or still differently).
â quidâ¦
Jan 4 '16 at 20:03
I'll add that this could well be a quibble that is simply something lost in translation (I take it the original quote was in Russian?)... we need a native Russian speaker to comment on whether, in the original Russian, this ambiguity existed in the first place. Until the ambiguity is confirmed in the original Russian, this is simply a poor translation.
â MichaelChirico
Jan 4 '16 at 20:13
@MichaelChirico you're too kind; I followed exactly the same train of thought as you, except I attributed the odd grammar to either a poor translation or a non-native speaker doing the best they could. This subconscious hypothesis was reinforced by the odd syntax/ambiguity in the "as had their Russican peers" statement.
â pjz
Jan 4 '16 at 21:17
 |Â
show 2 more comments
up vote
77
down vote
up vote
77
down vote
The red line represents all possible third vertices for triangles with base 10 and height 6;
The blue curve represents all possible third vertices for right triangles with hypotenuse 10.
The two sets have null intersection.
(in fact, the maximum possible third angle 6 units away is $arccos(frac1161)approx$ 79.6ð)
(and yes, technically we should include the corresponding points below the segment as well)
The red line represents all possible third vertices for triangles with base 10 and height 6;
The blue curve represents all possible third vertices for right triangles with hypotenuse 10.
The two sets have null intersection.
(in fact, the maximum possible third angle 6 units away is $arccos(frac1161)approx$ 79.6ð)
(and yes, technically we should include the corresponding points below the segment as well)
edited Aug 12 at 0:57
answered Jan 1 '16 at 0:09
MichaelChirico
3,502925
3,502925
2
I think your answer (along with all other answers, with the exception of the one by @AlanCampbell) has badly misinterpreted the problem. The problem statement says that the altitude "dropped onto the hypotenuse" -- not the one from dropped from the vertex with the right angle -- is 6 inches. Thus, the triangle has sides 6, 8, and 10 inches -- there's no problem at all with such a triangle existing...
â Mico
Jan 4 '16 at 6:15
3
@Mico though I agree it's apparent the author should have been more careful with verbiage, I disagree with you for hair-splitting reasons. the problem states "the altitude"; in the 3-4-5 case it becomes immediately ambiguous as there are in fact three altitudes with an end on the hypotenuse. thinking this way, there is no way the author could get away with using the definite article. the only way we can take the problem as given is to deduce the author in fact meant the altitude corresponding to the right angle.
â MichaelChirico
Jan 4 '16 at 6:23
4
@Mico: what do you think the 'the altitude "dropped onto the hypotenuse"' is intended to mean? As far as I am concerned it is the exact same thing as 'the one from dropped from the vertex with the right angle.' In any triangle there are three altitudes. Each can be specified by either the side on which they are dropped or by the vertex from which the are dropped (or still differently).
â quidâ¦
Jan 4 '16 at 20:03
I'll add that this could well be a quibble that is simply something lost in translation (I take it the original quote was in Russian?)... we need a native Russian speaker to comment on whether, in the original Russian, this ambiguity existed in the first place. Until the ambiguity is confirmed in the original Russian, this is simply a poor translation.
â MichaelChirico
Jan 4 '16 at 20:13
@MichaelChirico you're too kind; I followed exactly the same train of thought as you, except I attributed the odd grammar to either a poor translation or a non-native speaker doing the best they could. This subconscious hypothesis was reinforced by the odd syntax/ambiguity in the "as had their Russican peers" statement.
â pjz
Jan 4 '16 at 21:17
 |Â
show 2 more comments
2
I think your answer (along with all other answers, with the exception of the one by @AlanCampbell) has badly misinterpreted the problem. The problem statement says that the altitude "dropped onto the hypotenuse" -- not the one from dropped from the vertex with the right angle -- is 6 inches. Thus, the triangle has sides 6, 8, and 10 inches -- there's no problem at all with such a triangle existing...
â Mico
Jan 4 '16 at 6:15
3
@Mico though I agree it's apparent the author should have been more careful with verbiage, I disagree with you for hair-splitting reasons. the problem states "the altitude"; in the 3-4-5 case it becomes immediately ambiguous as there are in fact three altitudes with an end on the hypotenuse. thinking this way, there is no way the author could get away with using the definite article. the only way we can take the problem as given is to deduce the author in fact meant the altitude corresponding to the right angle.
â MichaelChirico
Jan 4 '16 at 6:23
4
@Mico: what do you think the 'the altitude "dropped onto the hypotenuse"' is intended to mean? As far as I am concerned it is the exact same thing as 'the one from dropped from the vertex with the right angle.' In any triangle there are three altitudes. Each can be specified by either the side on which they are dropped or by the vertex from which the are dropped (or still differently).
â quidâ¦
Jan 4 '16 at 20:03
I'll add that this could well be a quibble that is simply something lost in translation (I take it the original quote was in Russian?)... we need a native Russian speaker to comment on whether, in the original Russian, this ambiguity existed in the first place. Until the ambiguity is confirmed in the original Russian, this is simply a poor translation.
â MichaelChirico
Jan 4 '16 at 20:13
@MichaelChirico you're too kind; I followed exactly the same train of thought as you, except I attributed the odd grammar to either a poor translation or a non-native speaker doing the best they could. This subconscious hypothesis was reinforced by the odd syntax/ambiguity in the "as had their Russican peers" statement.
â pjz
Jan 4 '16 at 21:17
2
2
I think your answer (along with all other answers, with the exception of the one by @AlanCampbell) has badly misinterpreted the problem. The problem statement says that the altitude "dropped onto the hypotenuse" -- not the one from dropped from the vertex with the right angle -- is 6 inches. Thus, the triangle has sides 6, 8, and 10 inches -- there's no problem at all with such a triangle existing...
â Mico
Jan 4 '16 at 6:15
I think your answer (along with all other answers, with the exception of the one by @AlanCampbell) has badly misinterpreted the problem. The problem statement says that the altitude "dropped onto the hypotenuse" -- not the one from dropped from the vertex with the right angle -- is 6 inches. Thus, the triangle has sides 6, 8, and 10 inches -- there's no problem at all with such a triangle existing...
â Mico
Jan 4 '16 at 6:15
3
3
@Mico though I agree it's apparent the author should have been more careful with verbiage, I disagree with you for hair-splitting reasons. the problem states "the altitude"; in the 3-4-5 case it becomes immediately ambiguous as there are in fact three altitudes with an end on the hypotenuse. thinking this way, there is no way the author could get away with using the definite article. the only way we can take the problem as given is to deduce the author in fact meant the altitude corresponding to the right angle.
â MichaelChirico
Jan 4 '16 at 6:23
@Mico though I agree it's apparent the author should have been more careful with verbiage, I disagree with you for hair-splitting reasons. the problem states "the altitude"; in the 3-4-5 case it becomes immediately ambiguous as there are in fact three altitudes with an end on the hypotenuse. thinking this way, there is no way the author could get away with using the definite article. the only way we can take the problem as given is to deduce the author in fact meant the altitude corresponding to the right angle.
â MichaelChirico
Jan 4 '16 at 6:23
4
4
@Mico: what do you think the 'the altitude "dropped onto the hypotenuse"' is intended to mean? As far as I am concerned it is the exact same thing as 'the one from dropped from the vertex with the right angle.' In any triangle there are three altitudes. Each can be specified by either the side on which they are dropped or by the vertex from which the are dropped (or still differently).
â quidâ¦
Jan 4 '16 at 20:03
@Mico: what do you think the 'the altitude "dropped onto the hypotenuse"' is intended to mean? As far as I am concerned it is the exact same thing as 'the one from dropped from the vertex with the right angle.' In any triangle there are three altitudes. Each can be specified by either the side on which they are dropped or by the vertex from which the are dropped (or still differently).
â quidâ¦
Jan 4 '16 at 20:03
I'll add that this could well be a quibble that is simply something lost in translation (I take it the original quote was in Russian?)... we need a native Russian speaker to comment on whether, in the original Russian, this ambiguity existed in the first place. Until the ambiguity is confirmed in the original Russian, this is simply a poor translation.
â MichaelChirico
Jan 4 '16 at 20:13
I'll add that this could well be a quibble that is simply something lost in translation (I take it the original quote was in Russian?)... we need a native Russian speaker to comment on whether, in the original Russian, this ambiguity existed in the first place. Until the ambiguity is confirmed in the original Russian, this is simply a poor translation.
â MichaelChirico
Jan 4 '16 at 20:13
@MichaelChirico you're too kind; I followed exactly the same train of thought as you, except I attributed the odd grammar to either a poor translation or a non-native speaker doing the best they could. This subconscious hypothesis was reinforced by the odd syntax/ambiguity in the "as had their Russican peers" statement.
â pjz
Jan 4 '16 at 21:17
@MichaelChirico you're too kind; I followed exactly the same train of thought as you, except I attributed the odd grammar to either a poor translation or a non-native speaker doing the best they could. This subconscious hypothesis was reinforced by the odd syntax/ambiguity in the "as had their Russican peers" statement.
â pjz
Jan 4 '16 at 21:17
 |Â
show 2 more comments
up vote
34
down vote
By mistake, one can fairly easily calculate the area of given right triangle as $frac12(10)(6)=30$ but this is incorrect. Why? Perhaps, this is the intuition behind the question that one should first check the existence of such a right triangle with given data before calculating area.
A right triangle with hypotenuse $10$ & an altitude of $6$ drawn to it doesn't exist because the maximum possible length of altitude drawn to the hypotenuse is $5$ i.e. half the length of hypotenuse. Here is an analytic proof to check existence of such a right triangle.
Statement: The maximum length of altitude, drawn from right angled vertex to the hypotenuse of length $a$ in a right triangle, is $a/2$ i.e. half the length of hypotenuse.
Proof: Let $x$ & $y$ be the legs (of variable length) of the right triangle having hypotenuse $a$ (known value) then using Pythagorean theorem, one should have $$x^2+y^2=10^2$$ $$y^2=a^2-x^2tag 1$$
Now, the length of altitude say $p$ drawn to the hypotenuse in right triangle is given as $$=colorbluefrac(textleg_1)times (textleg_2)(texthypotenuse)=fracxya$$ $$implies p=fracxya$$$$iff a^2p^2=x^2y^2tag 2$$
let $a^2p^2=P$ (some other variable ), now setting value of $y^2$ from (1), $$P=x^2(a^2-x^2)=a^2x^2-x^4$$ $$fracdPdx=2a^2x-4x^3$$
$$fracd^2Pdx^2=2a^2-12x^2tag 3$$
For maxima or minima, setting $fracdPdx=0$, $$2a^2x-4x^3=0implies x=0,fracasqrt 2, -fracasqrt 2$$, But $x>0$, hence $x=fracasqrt 2$. Now, setting this value of $x$ in (3),
$$fracd^2Pdx^2=2a^2-12left(fracasqrt 2right)^2=-4a^2<0$$ hence, $P$ i.e. $a^2p^2$ is maximum at $x=fracasqrt 2$ hence, from (1), the corresponding value of $y$, $$y=sqrta^2-fraca^22=fracasqrt 2$$
hence, the maximum possible length of altitude drawn (from right angled vertex ) to the hypotenuse, $$colorredp=fracxya=fracfracasqrt 2fracasqrt 2a=colorredfraca2$$
So if the length of altitude $p$ is greater than $fraca2$ (half the length of hypotenuse) then such a right triangle doesn't exist.
1
"A right triangle with hypotenuse 100 & an altitude of 6" I guess there's a typo and should say 10. Great explanation though.
â Masclins
Dec 31 '15 at 7:50
5
An easier proof would be to draw a Thales' circle around the hypotenuse and note that it has no point 6 inches away from the hypotenuse.
â John Dvorak
Dec 31 '15 at 10:20
6
An easier proof would be to note that $a = sqrtx^2+y^2$ and height/hypotenuse $= fracxyx^2+y^2 le frac12 $ by AM GM inequality.
â Ishan Banerjee
Dec 31 '15 at 12:23
6
Calculus is a bit overkill for such a simple proof, see @Mick answer
â mattecapu
Dec 31 '15 at 13:53
3
Calculus is used just to show the result analytically.
â Harish Chandra Rajpoot
Jan 1 '16 at 19:33
add a comment |Â
up vote
34
down vote
By mistake, one can fairly easily calculate the area of given right triangle as $frac12(10)(6)=30$ but this is incorrect. Why? Perhaps, this is the intuition behind the question that one should first check the existence of such a right triangle with given data before calculating area.
A right triangle with hypotenuse $10$ & an altitude of $6$ drawn to it doesn't exist because the maximum possible length of altitude drawn to the hypotenuse is $5$ i.e. half the length of hypotenuse. Here is an analytic proof to check existence of such a right triangle.
Statement: The maximum length of altitude, drawn from right angled vertex to the hypotenuse of length $a$ in a right triangle, is $a/2$ i.e. half the length of hypotenuse.
Proof: Let $x$ & $y$ be the legs (of variable length) of the right triangle having hypotenuse $a$ (known value) then using Pythagorean theorem, one should have $$x^2+y^2=10^2$$ $$y^2=a^2-x^2tag 1$$
Now, the length of altitude say $p$ drawn to the hypotenuse in right triangle is given as $$=colorbluefrac(textleg_1)times (textleg_2)(texthypotenuse)=fracxya$$ $$implies p=fracxya$$$$iff a^2p^2=x^2y^2tag 2$$
let $a^2p^2=P$ (some other variable ), now setting value of $y^2$ from (1), $$P=x^2(a^2-x^2)=a^2x^2-x^4$$ $$fracdPdx=2a^2x-4x^3$$
$$fracd^2Pdx^2=2a^2-12x^2tag 3$$
For maxima or minima, setting $fracdPdx=0$, $$2a^2x-4x^3=0implies x=0,fracasqrt 2, -fracasqrt 2$$, But $x>0$, hence $x=fracasqrt 2$. Now, setting this value of $x$ in (3),
$$fracd^2Pdx^2=2a^2-12left(fracasqrt 2right)^2=-4a^2<0$$ hence, $P$ i.e. $a^2p^2$ is maximum at $x=fracasqrt 2$ hence, from (1), the corresponding value of $y$, $$y=sqrta^2-fraca^22=fracasqrt 2$$
hence, the maximum possible length of altitude drawn (from right angled vertex ) to the hypotenuse, $$colorredp=fracxya=fracfracasqrt 2fracasqrt 2a=colorredfraca2$$
So if the length of altitude $p$ is greater than $fraca2$ (half the length of hypotenuse) then such a right triangle doesn't exist.
1
"A right triangle with hypotenuse 100 & an altitude of 6" I guess there's a typo and should say 10. Great explanation though.
â Masclins
Dec 31 '15 at 7:50
5
An easier proof would be to draw a Thales' circle around the hypotenuse and note that it has no point 6 inches away from the hypotenuse.
â John Dvorak
Dec 31 '15 at 10:20
6
An easier proof would be to note that $a = sqrtx^2+y^2$ and height/hypotenuse $= fracxyx^2+y^2 le frac12 $ by AM GM inequality.
â Ishan Banerjee
Dec 31 '15 at 12:23
6
Calculus is a bit overkill for such a simple proof, see @Mick answer
â mattecapu
Dec 31 '15 at 13:53
3
Calculus is used just to show the result analytically.
â Harish Chandra Rajpoot
Jan 1 '16 at 19:33
add a comment |Â
up vote
34
down vote
up vote
34
down vote
By mistake, one can fairly easily calculate the area of given right triangle as $frac12(10)(6)=30$ but this is incorrect. Why? Perhaps, this is the intuition behind the question that one should first check the existence of such a right triangle with given data before calculating area.
A right triangle with hypotenuse $10$ & an altitude of $6$ drawn to it doesn't exist because the maximum possible length of altitude drawn to the hypotenuse is $5$ i.e. half the length of hypotenuse. Here is an analytic proof to check existence of such a right triangle.
Statement: The maximum length of altitude, drawn from right angled vertex to the hypotenuse of length $a$ in a right triangle, is $a/2$ i.e. half the length of hypotenuse.
Proof: Let $x$ & $y$ be the legs (of variable length) of the right triangle having hypotenuse $a$ (known value) then using Pythagorean theorem, one should have $$x^2+y^2=10^2$$ $$y^2=a^2-x^2tag 1$$
Now, the length of altitude say $p$ drawn to the hypotenuse in right triangle is given as $$=colorbluefrac(textleg_1)times (textleg_2)(texthypotenuse)=fracxya$$ $$implies p=fracxya$$$$iff a^2p^2=x^2y^2tag 2$$
let $a^2p^2=P$ (some other variable ), now setting value of $y^2$ from (1), $$P=x^2(a^2-x^2)=a^2x^2-x^4$$ $$fracdPdx=2a^2x-4x^3$$
$$fracd^2Pdx^2=2a^2-12x^2tag 3$$
For maxima or minima, setting $fracdPdx=0$, $$2a^2x-4x^3=0implies x=0,fracasqrt 2, -fracasqrt 2$$, But $x>0$, hence $x=fracasqrt 2$. Now, setting this value of $x$ in (3),
$$fracd^2Pdx^2=2a^2-12left(fracasqrt 2right)^2=-4a^2<0$$ hence, $P$ i.e. $a^2p^2$ is maximum at $x=fracasqrt 2$ hence, from (1), the corresponding value of $y$, $$y=sqrta^2-fraca^22=fracasqrt 2$$
hence, the maximum possible length of altitude drawn (from right angled vertex ) to the hypotenuse, $$colorredp=fracxya=fracfracasqrt 2fracasqrt 2a=colorredfraca2$$
So if the length of altitude $p$ is greater than $fraca2$ (half the length of hypotenuse) then such a right triangle doesn't exist.
By mistake, one can fairly easily calculate the area of given right triangle as $frac12(10)(6)=30$ but this is incorrect. Why? Perhaps, this is the intuition behind the question that one should first check the existence of such a right triangle with given data before calculating area.
A right triangle with hypotenuse $10$ & an altitude of $6$ drawn to it doesn't exist because the maximum possible length of altitude drawn to the hypotenuse is $5$ i.e. half the length of hypotenuse. Here is an analytic proof to check existence of such a right triangle.
Statement: The maximum length of altitude, drawn from right angled vertex to the hypotenuse of length $a$ in a right triangle, is $a/2$ i.e. half the length of hypotenuse.
Proof: Let $x$ & $y$ be the legs (of variable length) of the right triangle having hypotenuse $a$ (known value) then using Pythagorean theorem, one should have $$x^2+y^2=10^2$$ $$y^2=a^2-x^2tag 1$$
Now, the length of altitude say $p$ drawn to the hypotenuse in right triangle is given as $$=colorbluefrac(textleg_1)times (textleg_2)(texthypotenuse)=fracxya$$ $$implies p=fracxya$$$$iff a^2p^2=x^2y^2tag 2$$
let $a^2p^2=P$ (some other variable ), now setting value of $y^2$ from (1), $$P=x^2(a^2-x^2)=a^2x^2-x^4$$ $$fracdPdx=2a^2x-4x^3$$
$$fracd^2Pdx^2=2a^2-12x^2tag 3$$
For maxima or minima, setting $fracdPdx=0$, $$2a^2x-4x^3=0implies x=0,fracasqrt 2, -fracasqrt 2$$, But $x>0$, hence $x=fracasqrt 2$. Now, setting this value of $x$ in (3),
$$fracd^2Pdx^2=2a^2-12left(fracasqrt 2right)^2=-4a^2<0$$ hence, $P$ i.e. $a^2p^2$ is maximum at $x=fracasqrt 2$ hence, from (1), the corresponding value of $y$, $$y=sqrta^2-fraca^22=fracasqrt 2$$
hence, the maximum possible length of altitude drawn (from right angled vertex ) to the hypotenuse, $$colorredp=fracxya=fracfracasqrt 2fracasqrt 2a=colorredfraca2$$
So if the length of altitude $p$ is greater than $fraca2$ (half the length of hypotenuse) then such a right triangle doesn't exist.
edited Jan 2 '16 at 3:46
answered Dec 31 '15 at 7:00
Harish Chandra Rajpoot
29.3k103570
29.3k103570
1
"A right triangle with hypotenuse 100 & an altitude of 6" I guess there's a typo and should say 10. Great explanation though.
â Masclins
Dec 31 '15 at 7:50
5
An easier proof would be to draw a Thales' circle around the hypotenuse and note that it has no point 6 inches away from the hypotenuse.
â John Dvorak
Dec 31 '15 at 10:20
6
An easier proof would be to note that $a = sqrtx^2+y^2$ and height/hypotenuse $= fracxyx^2+y^2 le frac12 $ by AM GM inequality.
â Ishan Banerjee
Dec 31 '15 at 12:23
6
Calculus is a bit overkill for such a simple proof, see @Mick answer
â mattecapu
Dec 31 '15 at 13:53
3
Calculus is used just to show the result analytically.
â Harish Chandra Rajpoot
Jan 1 '16 at 19:33
add a comment |Â
1
"A right triangle with hypotenuse 100 & an altitude of 6" I guess there's a typo and should say 10. Great explanation though.
â Masclins
Dec 31 '15 at 7:50
5
An easier proof would be to draw a Thales' circle around the hypotenuse and note that it has no point 6 inches away from the hypotenuse.
â John Dvorak
Dec 31 '15 at 10:20
6
An easier proof would be to note that $a = sqrtx^2+y^2$ and height/hypotenuse $= fracxyx^2+y^2 le frac12 $ by AM GM inequality.
â Ishan Banerjee
Dec 31 '15 at 12:23
6
Calculus is a bit overkill for such a simple proof, see @Mick answer
â mattecapu
Dec 31 '15 at 13:53
3
Calculus is used just to show the result analytically.
â Harish Chandra Rajpoot
Jan 1 '16 at 19:33
1
1
"A right triangle with hypotenuse 100 & an altitude of 6" I guess there's a typo and should say 10. Great explanation though.
â Masclins
Dec 31 '15 at 7:50
"A right triangle with hypotenuse 100 & an altitude of 6" I guess there's a typo and should say 10. Great explanation though.
â Masclins
Dec 31 '15 at 7:50
5
5
An easier proof would be to draw a Thales' circle around the hypotenuse and note that it has no point 6 inches away from the hypotenuse.
â John Dvorak
Dec 31 '15 at 10:20
An easier proof would be to draw a Thales' circle around the hypotenuse and note that it has no point 6 inches away from the hypotenuse.
â John Dvorak
Dec 31 '15 at 10:20
6
6
An easier proof would be to note that $a = sqrtx^2+y^2$ and height/hypotenuse $= fracxyx^2+y^2 le frac12 $ by AM GM inequality.
â Ishan Banerjee
Dec 31 '15 at 12:23
An easier proof would be to note that $a = sqrtx^2+y^2$ and height/hypotenuse $= fracxyx^2+y^2 le frac12 $ by AM GM inequality.
â Ishan Banerjee
Dec 31 '15 at 12:23
6
6
Calculus is a bit overkill for such a simple proof, see @Mick answer
â mattecapu
Dec 31 '15 at 13:53
Calculus is a bit overkill for such a simple proof, see @Mick answer
â mattecapu
Dec 31 '15 at 13:53
3
3
Calculus is used just to show the result analytically.
â Harish Chandra Rajpoot
Jan 1 '16 at 19:33
Calculus is used just to show the result analytically.
â Harish Chandra Rajpoot
Jan 1 '16 at 19:33
add a comment |Â
up vote
29
down vote
Interesting - I had forgotten what an altitude was. Wikipedia says:
In geometry, an altitude of a triangle is a line segment through a vertex and perpendicular to (i.e. forming a right angle with) a line containing the base (the opposite side of the triangle). This line containing the opposite side is called the extended base of the altitude.
Who said the hypotenuse was the base? Why can't the altitude be equal to one side of the triangle?
This is a 3-4-5 right angled triangle. Or, to be precise: a 6-8-10 triangle. Hypotenuse is 10 inches, "altitude" (or height) is 6 inches, so the base is 8 inches.
Area is: 1/2 * (6) * (8) = 24 square inches.
If you insist on defining altitude as the distance from right-angled vertex to the hypotenuse, you get the problems others have already discussed.
Edit: An altitude is at right-angle to a side, and connects a side to a vertex. In this case we have an (unspecified) base, an altitude of 6 inches, and a 10 inch hypotenuse.
If the base is horizontal, and the altitude "drops" from the end, making a right-angle, then it contacts the hypotenuse line at the very end. The right-angle required of an altitude is formed at the base end, not the hypotenuse end.
5
I'm with Alan in that: "I had no clue that 'altitude' is apparently used in such a well-agreed way, indeed, I rather disagree that it is such a well-agreed term". However Alan, I'd point out that it is indeed meant to be a joke. The joke only "makes sense" if one interprets it in the obvious way. (One could say, it's not for example an engineering description where we'd all assert "don't use such vague terminology".) Also if I'm not mistaken it comes from an earlier historical period (and indeed from Russia?) so it's reasonable to have to tease-out that meaning, I think.
â Fattie
Dec 31 '15 at 15:23
28
The question doesn't just mention "an (or the) altitude", it mentions "the hypotenuse ... and the altitude dropped onto it". There is only one altitude dropped onto the hypotenuse, and that is the one from the right-angle.
â IanF1
Dec 31 '15 at 15:55
7
The formulation says âÂÂThe altitude dropped onto itâ (i.e. the hypotenuse) â isâÂÂ.
â PJTraill
Dec 31 '15 at 16:31
13
@Alan: every triangle has three altitudes, one perpendicular to each side. For a right triangle, the two legs are each other's altitudes, but the problem clearly refers to the third altitude, the one dropped onto (and hence perpendicular to) the hypotenuse, which is neither of the legs. This is completely standard terminology as far as I know.
â Qiaochu Yuan
Dec 31 '15 at 19:19
10
This was my interpretation, too. I had never heard the phrase 'altitude dropped onto' the hypotenuse of a right triangle and figured this was a side and it was a 6-8-10 right triangle with area 24. I certainly believe Qiaochu that this is standard terminology, but I was an American student and it's not something I ever remember hearing.
â Adam Acosta
Jan 1 '16 at 0:49
 |Â
show 9 more comments
up vote
29
down vote
Interesting - I had forgotten what an altitude was. Wikipedia says:
In geometry, an altitude of a triangle is a line segment through a vertex and perpendicular to (i.e. forming a right angle with) a line containing the base (the opposite side of the triangle). This line containing the opposite side is called the extended base of the altitude.
Who said the hypotenuse was the base? Why can't the altitude be equal to one side of the triangle?
This is a 3-4-5 right angled triangle. Or, to be precise: a 6-8-10 triangle. Hypotenuse is 10 inches, "altitude" (or height) is 6 inches, so the base is 8 inches.
Area is: 1/2 * (6) * (8) = 24 square inches.
If you insist on defining altitude as the distance from right-angled vertex to the hypotenuse, you get the problems others have already discussed.
Edit: An altitude is at right-angle to a side, and connects a side to a vertex. In this case we have an (unspecified) base, an altitude of 6 inches, and a 10 inch hypotenuse.
If the base is horizontal, and the altitude "drops" from the end, making a right-angle, then it contacts the hypotenuse line at the very end. The right-angle required of an altitude is formed at the base end, not the hypotenuse end.
5
I'm with Alan in that: "I had no clue that 'altitude' is apparently used in such a well-agreed way, indeed, I rather disagree that it is such a well-agreed term". However Alan, I'd point out that it is indeed meant to be a joke. The joke only "makes sense" if one interprets it in the obvious way. (One could say, it's not for example an engineering description where we'd all assert "don't use such vague terminology".) Also if I'm not mistaken it comes from an earlier historical period (and indeed from Russia?) so it's reasonable to have to tease-out that meaning, I think.
â Fattie
Dec 31 '15 at 15:23
28
The question doesn't just mention "an (or the) altitude", it mentions "the hypotenuse ... and the altitude dropped onto it". There is only one altitude dropped onto the hypotenuse, and that is the one from the right-angle.
â IanF1
Dec 31 '15 at 15:55
7
The formulation says âÂÂThe altitude dropped onto itâ (i.e. the hypotenuse) â isâÂÂ.
â PJTraill
Dec 31 '15 at 16:31
13
@Alan: every triangle has three altitudes, one perpendicular to each side. For a right triangle, the two legs are each other's altitudes, but the problem clearly refers to the third altitude, the one dropped onto (and hence perpendicular to) the hypotenuse, which is neither of the legs. This is completely standard terminology as far as I know.
â Qiaochu Yuan
Dec 31 '15 at 19:19
10
This was my interpretation, too. I had never heard the phrase 'altitude dropped onto' the hypotenuse of a right triangle and figured this was a side and it was a 6-8-10 right triangle with area 24. I certainly believe Qiaochu that this is standard terminology, but I was an American student and it's not something I ever remember hearing.
â Adam Acosta
Jan 1 '16 at 0:49
 |Â
show 9 more comments
up vote
29
down vote
up vote
29
down vote
Interesting - I had forgotten what an altitude was. Wikipedia says:
In geometry, an altitude of a triangle is a line segment through a vertex and perpendicular to (i.e. forming a right angle with) a line containing the base (the opposite side of the triangle). This line containing the opposite side is called the extended base of the altitude.
Who said the hypotenuse was the base? Why can't the altitude be equal to one side of the triangle?
This is a 3-4-5 right angled triangle. Or, to be precise: a 6-8-10 triangle. Hypotenuse is 10 inches, "altitude" (or height) is 6 inches, so the base is 8 inches.
Area is: 1/2 * (6) * (8) = 24 square inches.
If you insist on defining altitude as the distance from right-angled vertex to the hypotenuse, you get the problems others have already discussed.
Edit: An altitude is at right-angle to a side, and connects a side to a vertex. In this case we have an (unspecified) base, an altitude of 6 inches, and a 10 inch hypotenuse.
If the base is horizontal, and the altitude "drops" from the end, making a right-angle, then it contacts the hypotenuse line at the very end. The right-angle required of an altitude is formed at the base end, not the hypotenuse end.
Interesting - I had forgotten what an altitude was. Wikipedia says:
In geometry, an altitude of a triangle is a line segment through a vertex and perpendicular to (i.e. forming a right angle with) a line containing the base (the opposite side of the triangle). This line containing the opposite side is called the extended base of the altitude.
Who said the hypotenuse was the base? Why can't the altitude be equal to one side of the triangle?
This is a 3-4-5 right angled triangle. Or, to be precise: a 6-8-10 triangle. Hypotenuse is 10 inches, "altitude" (or height) is 6 inches, so the base is 8 inches.
Area is: 1/2 * (6) * (8) = 24 square inches.
If you insist on defining altitude as the distance from right-angled vertex to the hypotenuse, you get the problems others have already discussed.
Edit: An altitude is at right-angle to a side, and connects a side to a vertex. In this case we have an (unspecified) base, an altitude of 6 inches, and a 10 inch hypotenuse.
If the base is horizontal, and the altitude "drops" from the end, making a right-angle, then it contacts the hypotenuse line at the very end. The right-angle required of an altitude is formed at the base end, not the hypotenuse end.
edited Jan 6 '16 at 5:11
answered Dec 31 '15 at 12:18
Alan Campbell
46537
46537
5
I'm with Alan in that: "I had no clue that 'altitude' is apparently used in such a well-agreed way, indeed, I rather disagree that it is such a well-agreed term". However Alan, I'd point out that it is indeed meant to be a joke. The joke only "makes sense" if one interprets it in the obvious way. (One could say, it's not for example an engineering description where we'd all assert "don't use such vague terminology".) Also if I'm not mistaken it comes from an earlier historical period (and indeed from Russia?) so it's reasonable to have to tease-out that meaning, I think.
â Fattie
Dec 31 '15 at 15:23
28
The question doesn't just mention "an (or the) altitude", it mentions "the hypotenuse ... and the altitude dropped onto it". There is only one altitude dropped onto the hypotenuse, and that is the one from the right-angle.
â IanF1
Dec 31 '15 at 15:55
7
The formulation says âÂÂThe altitude dropped onto itâ (i.e. the hypotenuse) â isâÂÂ.
â PJTraill
Dec 31 '15 at 16:31
13
@Alan: every triangle has three altitudes, one perpendicular to each side. For a right triangle, the two legs are each other's altitudes, but the problem clearly refers to the third altitude, the one dropped onto (and hence perpendicular to) the hypotenuse, which is neither of the legs. This is completely standard terminology as far as I know.
â Qiaochu Yuan
Dec 31 '15 at 19:19
10
This was my interpretation, too. I had never heard the phrase 'altitude dropped onto' the hypotenuse of a right triangle and figured this was a side and it was a 6-8-10 right triangle with area 24. I certainly believe Qiaochu that this is standard terminology, but I was an American student and it's not something I ever remember hearing.
â Adam Acosta
Jan 1 '16 at 0:49
 |Â
show 9 more comments
5
I'm with Alan in that: "I had no clue that 'altitude' is apparently used in such a well-agreed way, indeed, I rather disagree that it is such a well-agreed term". However Alan, I'd point out that it is indeed meant to be a joke. The joke only "makes sense" if one interprets it in the obvious way. (One could say, it's not for example an engineering description where we'd all assert "don't use such vague terminology".) Also if I'm not mistaken it comes from an earlier historical period (and indeed from Russia?) so it's reasonable to have to tease-out that meaning, I think.
â Fattie
Dec 31 '15 at 15:23
28
The question doesn't just mention "an (or the) altitude", it mentions "the hypotenuse ... and the altitude dropped onto it". There is only one altitude dropped onto the hypotenuse, and that is the one from the right-angle.
â IanF1
Dec 31 '15 at 15:55
7
The formulation says âÂÂThe altitude dropped onto itâ (i.e. the hypotenuse) â isâÂÂ.
â PJTraill
Dec 31 '15 at 16:31
13
@Alan: every triangle has three altitudes, one perpendicular to each side. For a right triangle, the two legs are each other's altitudes, but the problem clearly refers to the third altitude, the one dropped onto (and hence perpendicular to) the hypotenuse, which is neither of the legs. This is completely standard terminology as far as I know.
â Qiaochu Yuan
Dec 31 '15 at 19:19
10
This was my interpretation, too. I had never heard the phrase 'altitude dropped onto' the hypotenuse of a right triangle and figured this was a side and it was a 6-8-10 right triangle with area 24. I certainly believe Qiaochu that this is standard terminology, but I was an American student and it's not something I ever remember hearing.
â Adam Acosta
Jan 1 '16 at 0:49
5
5
I'm with Alan in that: "I had no clue that 'altitude' is apparently used in such a well-agreed way, indeed, I rather disagree that it is such a well-agreed term". However Alan, I'd point out that it is indeed meant to be a joke. The joke only "makes sense" if one interprets it in the obvious way. (One could say, it's not for example an engineering description where we'd all assert "don't use such vague terminology".) Also if I'm not mistaken it comes from an earlier historical period (and indeed from Russia?) so it's reasonable to have to tease-out that meaning, I think.
â Fattie
Dec 31 '15 at 15:23
I'm with Alan in that: "I had no clue that 'altitude' is apparently used in such a well-agreed way, indeed, I rather disagree that it is such a well-agreed term". However Alan, I'd point out that it is indeed meant to be a joke. The joke only "makes sense" if one interprets it in the obvious way. (One could say, it's not for example an engineering description where we'd all assert "don't use such vague terminology".) Also if I'm not mistaken it comes from an earlier historical period (and indeed from Russia?) so it's reasonable to have to tease-out that meaning, I think.
â Fattie
Dec 31 '15 at 15:23
28
28
The question doesn't just mention "an (or the) altitude", it mentions "the hypotenuse ... and the altitude dropped onto it". There is only one altitude dropped onto the hypotenuse, and that is the one from the right-angle.
â IanF1
Dec 31 '15 at 15:55
The question doesn't just mention "an (or the) altitude", it mentions "the hypotenuse ... and the altitude dropped onto it". There is only one altitude dropped onto the hypotenuse, and that is the one from the right-angle.
â IanF1
Dec 31 '15 at 15:55
7
7
The formulation says âÂÂThe altitude dropped onto itâ (i.e. the hypotenuse) â isâÂÂ.
â PJTraill
Dec 31 '15 at 16:31
The formulation says âÂÂThe altitude dropped onto itâ (i.e. the hypotenuse) â isâÂÂ.
â PJTraill
Dec 31 '15 at 16:31
13
13
@Alan: every triangle has three altitudes, one perpendicular to each side. For a right triangle, the two legs are each other's altitudes, but the problem clearly refers to the third altitude, the one dropped onto (and hence perpendicular to) the hypotenuse, which is neither of the legs. This is completely standard terminology as far as I know.
â Qiaochu Yuan
Dec 31 '15 at 19:19
@Alan: every triangle has three altitudes, one perpendicular to each side. For a right triangle, the two legs are each other's altitudes, but the problem clearly refers to the third altitude, the one dropped onto (and hence perpendicular to) the hypotenuse, which is neither of the legs. This is completely standard terminology as far as I know.
â Qiaochu Yuan
Dec 31 '15 at 19:19
10
10
This was my interpretation, too. I had never heard the phrase 'altitude dropped onto' the hypotenuse of a right triangle and figured this was a side and it was a 6-8-10 right triangle with area 24. I certainly believe Qiaochu that this is standard terminology, but I was an American student and it's not something I ever remember hearing.
â Adam Acosta
Jan 1 '16 at 0:49
This was my interpretation, too. I had never heard the phrase 'altitude dropped onto' the hypotenuse of a right triangle and figured this was a side and it was a 6-8-10 right triangle with area 24. I certainly believe Qiaochu that this is standard terminology, but I was an American student and it's not something I ever remember hearing.
â Adam Acosta
Jan 1 '16 at 0:49
 |Â
show 9 more comments
up vote
21
down vote
Here a non-Euclidian answer to the question
The depicted sphere has a circumference of length 40, and thus a radius of $frac20pi$. The points $A$ and $B$ are located on the equator, and $C$ is located on a pole.
Now $triangle ABC$ is a right triangle (it even has two right angles), since all meridians intersect the equator perpendicularly.
Define $AC$ to be the hypothenusa, with length $10$. The height, being the shortest distance from $B$ to its hypothenusa $AC$ is then indeed $6$.
As $triangle ABC$ covers $frac640$ of the upper hemisphere, its area is:
$$A_texttriangle = frac640timesfrac12times 4pi r^2 = frac120pi$$
$blacksquare$
5
This has got to be the correct answer. Arnold's finest joke.
â PatrickT
Aug 27 '16 at 7:21
1
i have edited a little thanks
â Bhaskara-III
Sep 21 '16 at 10:33
1
It is one of several different possible non-Euclidian answers.
â Klaws
Jan 26 at 16:07
add a comment |Â
up vote
21
down vote
Here a non-Euclidian answer to the question
The depicted sphere has a circumference of length 40, and thus a radius of $frac20pi$. The points $A$ and $B$ are located on the equator, and $C$ is located on a pole.
Now $triangle ABC$ is a right triangle (it even has two right angles), since all meridians intersect the equator perpendicularly.
Define $AC$ to be the hypothenusa, with length $10$. The height, being the shortest distance from $B$ to its hypothenusa $AC$ is then indeed $6$.
As $triangle ABC$ covers $frac640$ of the upper hemisphere, its area is:
$$A_texttriangle = frac640timesfrac12times 4pi r^2 = frac120pi$$
$blacksquare$
5
This has got to be the correct answer. Arnold's finest joke.
â PatrickT
Aug 27 '16 at 7:21
1
i have edited a little thanks
â Bhaskara-III
Sep 21 '16 at 10:33
1
It is one of several different possible non-Euclidian answers.
â Klaws
Jan 26 at 16:07
add a comment |Â
up vote
21
down vote
up vote
21
down vote
Here a non-Euclidian answer to the question
The depicted sphere has a circumference of length 40, and thus a radius of $frac20pi$. The points $A$ and $B$ are located on the equator, and $C$ is located on a pole.
Now $triangle ABC$ is a right triangle (it even has two right angles), since all meridians intersect the equator perpendicularly.
Define $AC$ to be the hypothenusa, with length $10$. The height, being the shortest distance from $B$ to its hypothenusa $AC$ is then indeed $6$.
As $triangle ABC$ covers $frac640$ of the upper hemisphere, its area is:
$$A_texttriangle = frac640timesfrac12times 4pi r^2 = frac120pi$$
$blacksquare$
Here a non-Euclidian answer to the question
The depicted sphere has a circumference of length 40, and thus a radius of $frac20pi$. The points $A$ and $B$ are located on the equator, and $C$ is located on a pole.
Now $triangle ABC$ is a right triangle (it even has two right angles), since all meridians intersect the equator perpendicularly.
Define $AC$ to be the hypothenusa, with length $10$. The height, being the shortest distance from $B$ to its hypothenusa $AC$ is then indeed $6$.
As $triangle ABC$ covers $frac640$ of the upper hemisphere, its area is:
$$A_texttriangle = frac640timesfrac12times 4pi r^2 = frac120pi$$
$blacksquare$
edited Dec 30 '16 at 2:04
answered Apr 26 '16 at 22:55
Job Bouwman
856511
856511
5
This has got to be the correct answer. Arnold's finest joke.
â PatrickT
Aug 27 '16 at 7:21
1
i have edited a little thanks
â Bhaskara-III
Sep 21 '16 at 10:33
1
It is one of several different possible non-Euclidian answers.
â Klaws
Jan 26 at 16:07
add a comment |Â
5
This has got to be the correct answer. Arnold's finest joke.
â PatrickT
Aug 27 '16 at 7:21
1
i have edited a little thanks
â Bhaskara-III
Sep 21 '16 at 10:33
1
It is one of several different possible non-Euclidian answers.
â Klaws
Jan 26 at 16:07
5
5
This has got to be the correct answer. Arnold's finest joke.
â PatrickT
Aug 27 '16 at 7:21
This has got to be the correct answer. Arnold's finest joke.
â PatrickT
Aug 27 '16 at 7:21
1
1
i have edited a little thanks
â Bhaskara-III
Sep 21 '16 at 10:33
i have edited a little thanks
â Bhaskara-III
Sep 21 '16 at 10:33
1
1
It is one of several different possible non-Euclidian answers.
â Klaws
Jan 26 at 16:07
It is one of several different possible non-Euclidian answers.
â Klaws
Jan 26 at 16:07
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Let $ABC$ be a right angled triangle with hypotenuse $AC=10$, base $BA=y$(say) and perpendicular $CB=x$ (say). Drop perpendicular $BD=6$ (if it exists) on $AB$. It is easy to see that $Delta ABCsim Delta ADB$ then using ratios,
$fraczy=frac6x=fracy10$
From last two ratios, $xy=60$
Also $x^2+y^2=10^2$ as $ABC$ is right angled at $B$.
This gives $x^2+(60/x)^2=100$ or $x^4-100x^2+3600=0$ which has no real roots.
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Let $ABC$ be a right angled triangle with hypotenuse $AC=10$, base $BA=y$(say) and perpendicular $CB=x$ (say). Drop perpendicular $BD=6$ (if it exists) on $AB$. It is easy to see that $Delta ABCsim Delta ADB$ then using ratios,
$fraczy=frac6x=fracy10$
From last two ratios, $xy=60$
Also $x^2+y^2=10^2$ as $ABC$ is right angled at $B$.
This gives $x^2+(60/x)^2=100$ or $x^4-100x^2+3600=0$ which has no real roots.
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
Let $ABC$ be a right angled triangle with hypotenuse $AC=10$, base $BA=y$(say) and perpendicular $CB=x$ (say). Drop perpendicular $BD=6$ (if it exists) on $AB$. It is easy to see that $Delta ABCsim Delta ADB$ then using ratios,
$fraczy=frac6x=fracy10$
From last two ratios, $xy=60$
Also $x^2+y^2=10^2$ as $ABC$ is right angled at $B$.
This gives $x^2+(60/x)^2=100$ or $x^4-100x^2+3600=0$ which has no real roots.
Let $ABC$ be a right angled triangle with hypotenuse $AC=10$, base $BA=y$(say) and perpendicular $CB=x$ (say). Drop perpendicular $BD=6$ (if it exists) on $AB$. It is easy to see that $Delta ABCsim Delta ADB$ then using ratios,
$fraczy=frac6x=fracy10$
From last two ratios, $xy=60$
Also $x^2+y^2=10^2$ as $ABC$ is right angled at $B$.
This gives $x^2+(60/x)^2=100$ or $x^4-100x^2+3600=0$ which has no real roots.
answered Jan 14 '17 at 14:29
Mathlover
3,6631021
3,6631021
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
This is from a paper full of trick questions, so likely, is criticizing the American students. The crux of the problem is whether the discrepancy is noticed, and how it is handled.
In middle school, kids are taught a simplified formula,
triangle area = 1/2 * b * h, or area equals base times height.
In Geometry, the full version is taught, A = 1/2 * b * a ==> area = 1/2 * base (any side of triangle) * altitude (line perpendicular to base and going to opposite vertex). The definitions of base and altitude are critical and repeatedly taught. They have been standard since the time of Euclid, but teaching the simplified version causes confusion.
Using this formula, the 30 inches square area would be true for a triangle with hypotenuse of 10 and corresponding altitude of 6.
Kids are taught that the sides of a right triangle with hypotenuse length 10 and a side of 6 is a Pythagorian Triple, 6:8:10. For this 6:8:10 triangle, 6 and 8 are perpendicular and thus altitudes of each other, the area = 1/2 * 6 * 8 = 24. The altitude for the hypotenuse can be found by area = 24 = 1/2 * 10 * altitude, and altitude = 4.8 inches.
Thus, using simple tools taught to the students, the "altitude 6" triangle cannot be a right triangle, since the right triangle with side 6 and hypotenuse 10 has a side of 6, not the altitude to the hypotenuse. Expecting complicated proofs from secondary students is unreasonable, but applying the Pythagorean Theorem and area formulae are standard.
The typical student probably sees the 6 and 10 as parts of a Pythagorean Triple and "knows" it is a right triangle, then finds the obvious area without further thought. Thus, answering the question as 30 could imply sloppy work or lack of knowledge or understanding.
Alternately, it could be that the American students saw the discrepancy, and made a judgement call on how to answer a test question, assuming a typographical error.
PS, Yuan's inscribing the triangle in a circle to determine the maximum possible altitude to the hypotenuse is simple, brilliant, and uses concepts taught in Geometry!
3
It would be better to not use abbreviations so that your answer is clearer. Also MathJax.
â 6005
Dec 31 '15 at 6:55
11
There are many right triangles with hypotenuse $10$ but the legs not $6$, $8$.
â user236182
Dec 31 '15 at 8:57
@user but none of them have integer-sized legs
â John Dvorak
Dec 31 '15 at 12:01
6
@JanDvorak the question doesn't mention integer-sized legs.
â IanF1
Dec 31 '15 at 15:56
@ian indeed, but integer-sized legs are what most students expect. Not valid reasoning, but some students might have followed it anyways.
â John Dvorak
Dec 31 '15 at 15:59
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
This is from a paper full of trick questions, so likely, is criticizing the American students. The crux of the problem is whether the discrepancy is noticed, and how it is handled.
In middle school, kids are taught a simplified formula,
triangle area = 1/2 * b * h, or area equals base times height.
In Geometry, the full version is taught, A = 1/2 * b * a ==> area = 1/2 * base (any side of triangle) * altitude (line perpendicular to base and going to opposite vertex). The definitions of base and altitude are critical and repeatedly taught. They have been standard since the time of Euclid, but teaching the simplified version causes confusion.
Using this formula, the 30 inches square area would be true for a triangle with hypotenuse of 10 and corresponding altitude of 6.
Kids are taught that the sides of a right triangle with hypotenuse length 10 and a side of 6 is a Pythagorian Triple, 6:8:10. For this 6:8:10 triangle, 6 and 8 are perpendicular and thus altitudes of each other, the area = 1/2 * 6 * 8 = 24. The altitude for the hypotenuse can be found by area = 24 = 1/2 * 10 * altitude, and altitude = 4.8 inches.
Thus, using simple tools taught to the students, the "altitude 6" triangle cannot be a right triangle, since the right triangle with side 6 and hypotenuse 10 has a side of 6, not the altitude to the hypotenuse. Expecting complicated proofs from secondary students is unreasonable, but applying the Pythagorean Theorem and area formulae are standard.
The typical student probably sees the 6 and 10 as parts of a Pythagorean Triple and "knows" it is a right triangle, then finds the obvious area without further thought. Thus, answering the question as 30 could imply sloppy work or lack of knowledge or understanding.
Alternately, it could be that the American students saw the discrepancy, and made a judgement call on how to answer a test question, assuming a typographical error.
PS, Yuan's inscribing the triangle in a circle to determine the maximum possible altitude to the hypotenuse is simple, brilliant, and uses concepts taught in Geometry!
3
It would be better to not use abbreviations so that your answer is clearer. Also MathJax.
â 6005
Dec 31 '15 at 6:55
11
There are many right triangles with hypotenuse $10$ but the legs not $6$, $8$.
â user236182
Dec 31 '15 at 8:57
@user but none of them have integer-sized legs
â John Dvorak
Dec 31 '15 at 12:01
6
@JanDvorak the question doesn't mention integer-sized legs.
â IanF1
Dec 31 '15 at 15:56
@ian indeed, but integer-sized legs are what most students expect. Not valid reasoning, but some students might have followed it anyways.
â John Dvorak
Dec 31 '15 at 15:59
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
This is from a paper full of trick questions, so likely, is criticizing the American students. The crux of the problem is whether the discrepancy is noticed, and how it is handled.
In middle school, kids are taught a simplified formula,
triangle area = 1/2 * b * h, or area equals base times height.
In Geometry, the full version is taught, A = 1/2 * b * a ==> area = 1/2 * base (any side of triangle) * altitude (line perpendicular to base and going to opposite vertex). The definitions of base and altitude are critical and repeatedly taught. They have been standard since the time of Euclid, but teaching the simplified version causes confusion.
Using this formula, the 30 inches square area would be true for a triangle with hypotenuse of 10 and corresponding altitude of 6.
Kids are taught that the sides of a right triangle with hypotenuse length 10 and a side of 6 is a Pythagorian Triple, 6:8:10. For this 6:8:10 triangle, 6 and 8 are perpendicular and thus altitudes of each other, the area = 1/2 * 6 * 8 = 24. The altitude for the hypotenuse can be found by area = 24 = 1/2 * 10 * altitude, and altitude = 4.8 inches.
Thus, using simple tools taught to the students, the "altitude 6" triangle cannot be a right triangle, since the right triangle with side 6 and hypotenuse 10 has a side of 6, not the altitude to the hypotenuse. Expecting complicated proofs from secondary students is unreasonable, but applying the Pythagorean Theorem and area formulae are standard.
The typical student probably sees the 6 and 10 as parts of a Pythagorean Triple and "knows" it is a right triangle, then finds the obvious area without further thought. Thus, answering the question as 30 could imply sloppy work or lack of knowledge or understanding.
Alternately, it could be that the American students saw the discrepancy, and made a judgement call on how to answer a test question, assuming a typographical error.
PS, Yuan's inscribing the triangle in a circle to determine the maximum possible altitude to the hypotenuse is simple, brilliant, and uses concepts taught in Geometry!
This is from a paper full of trick questions, so likely, is criticizing the American students. The crux of the problem is whether the discrepancy is noticed, and how it is handled.
In middle school, kids are taught a simplified formula,
triangle area = 1/2 * b * h, or area equals base times height.
In Geometry, the full version is taught, A = 1/2 * b * a ==> area = 1/2 * base (any side of triangle) * altitude (line perpendicular to base and going to opposite vertex). The definitions of base and altitude are critical and repeatedly taught. They have been standard since the time of Euclid, but teaching the simplified version causes confusion.
Using this formula, the 30 inches square area would be true for a triangle with hypotenuse of 10 and corresponding altitude of 6.
Kids are taught that the sides of a right triangle with hypotenuse length 10 and a side of 6 is a Pythagorian Triple, 6:8:10. For this 6:8:10 triangle, 6 and 8 are perpendicular and thus altitudes of each other, the area = 1/2 * 6 * 8 = 24. The altitude for the hypotenuse can be found by area = 24 = 1/2 * 10 * altitude, and altitude = 4.8 inches.
Thus, using simple tools taught to the students, the "altitude 6" triangle cannot be a right triangle, since the right triangle with side 6 and hypotenuse 10 has a side of 6, not the altitude to the hypotenuse. Expecting complicated proofs from secondary students is unreasonable, but applying the Pythagorean Theorem and area formulae are standard.
The typical student probably sees the 6 and 10 as parts of a Pythagorean Triple and "knows" it is a right triangle, then finds the obvious area without further thought. Thus, answering the question as 30 could imply sloppy work or lack of knowledge or understanding.
Alternately, it could be that the American students saw the discrepancy, and made a judgement call on how to answer a test question, assuming a typographical error.
PS, Yuan's inscribing the triangle in a circle to determine the maximum possible altitude to the hypotenuse is simple, brilliant, and uses concepts taught in Geometry!
edited Jan 1 '16 at 0:15
answered Dec 31 '15 at 6:51
D. Fraser
871
871
3
It would be better to not use abbreviations so that your answer is clearer. Also MathJax.
â 6005
Dec 31 '15 at 6:55
11
There are many right triangles with hypotenuse $10$ but the legs not $6$, $8$.
â user236182
Dec 31 '15 at 8:57
@user but none of them have integer-sized legs
â John Dvorak
Dec 31 '15 at 12:01
6
@JanDvorak the question doesn't mention integer-sized legs.
â IanF1
Dec 31 '15 at 15:56
@ian indeed, but integer-sized legs are what most students expect. Not valid reasoning, but some students might have followed it anyways.
â John Dvorak
Dec 31 '15 at 15:59
add a comment |Â
3
It would be better to not use abbreviations so that your answer is clearer. Also MathJax.
â 6005
Dec 31 '15 at 6:55
11
There are many right triangles with hypotenuse $10$ but the legs not $6$, $8$.
â user236182
Dec 31 '15 at 8:57
@user but none of them have integer-sized legs
â John Dvorak
Dec 31 '15 at 12:01
6
@JanDvorak the question doesn't mention integer-sized legs.
â IanF1
Dec 31 '15 at 15:56
@ian indeed, but integer-sized legs are what most students expect. Not valid reasoning, but some students might have followed it anyways.
â John Dvorak
Dec 31 '15 at 15:59
3
3
It would be better to not use abbreviations so that your answer is clearer. Also MathJax.
â 6005
Dec 31 '15 at 6:55
It would be better to not use abbreviations so that your answer is clearer. Also MathJax.
â 6005
Dec 31 '15 at 6:55
11
11
There are many right triangles with hypotenuse $10$ but the legs not $6$, $8$.
â user236182
Dec 31 '15 at 8:57
There are many right triangles with hypotenuse $10$ but the legs not $6$, $8$.
â user236182
Dec 31 '15 at 8:57
@user but none of them have integer-sized legs
â John Dvorak
Dec 31 '15 at 12:01
@user but none of them have integer-sized legs
â John Dvorak
Dec 31 '15 at 12:01
6
6
@JanDvorak the question doesn't mention integer-sized legs.
â IanF1
Dec 31 '15 at 15:56
@JanDvorak the question doesn't mention integer-sized legs.
â IanF1
Dec 31 '15 at 15:56
@ian indeed, but integer-sized legs are what most students expect. Not valid reasoning, but some students might have followed it anyways.
â John Dvorak
Dec 31 '15 at 15:59
@ian indeed, but integer-sized legs are what most students expect. Not valid reasoning, but some students might have followed it anyways.
â John Dvorak
Dec 31 '15 at 15:59
add a comment |Â
protected by Asaf Karagila⦠Jan 1 '16 at 15:12
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Because it has attracted low-quality or spam answers that had to be removed, posting an answer now requires 10 reputation on this site (the association bonus does not count).
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47
The joke is at the Americans expence (naively applying formulas without thinking). Hint: Try to compute what the other two sides of the triangle must be given this information.
â Winther
Dec 31 '15 at 5:46
97
Oh, I figured it had something to do with American teenage boys always lying about things that are 6 inches being 10 inches.
â fleablood
Dec 31 '15 at 5:51
21
@ElliotG: I think this can be spun whatever way you want -- perhaps Americans do not assume that their teacher is constantly trying to punk them.
â Eli Rose
Dec 31 '15 at 5:59
41
I'd quibble that a triangle with a side (hypotenuse or otherwise) of 10 and an altitude to that side 6 then if we are given such a triangle the area is 30. That such a triangle is impossible isn't my fault. We weren't asked can such a triangle exist; we were asked given such a triangle what would they area be. And it would be 30.
â fleablood
Dec 31 '15 at 6:03
76
Am I the only one who had to look up what an "altitude" meant in this context? I've only ever seen it referred to as the "height" of a triangle, as in the usual "area = base * height / 2" formula... is this US-specific terminology or something?
â Thomas
Dec 31 '15 at 11:52