Clarification about Infinite Sums in Jech's Set Theory 3rd Edition

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On page 57 in the 3rd Edition of Jech's Set Theory, he begins with the elaboration on cardinal exponentiation. To that end the Hausdorff formula is introduced by noticing that for a regular cardinal $kappa$,



beginequation
kappa^lambda = cup_alpha < kappa alpha^lambda,
endequation



with $lambda$ denoting an infinite cardinal. From this Jech-apparently obviously-concludes that



beginequation
kappa^lambda = sum_alpha < kappa |alpha|^lambda.
endequation



My question is about the above conclusion.



On page 52 infinite sums are defined for disjoint families. This prerequisite appears not to be met by $alpha^lambda_alpha < kappa$, since $beta < gamma implies beta^lambda subseteq gamma^lambda$. My question is therefore why Jech applies the definition of inifinite sums, despite $alpha^lambda_alpha < kappa$ not being a disjoint family.



Appendix: Unless I have completely misunderstood something, I would guess that the answer to my question lies in the axiom of choice, i.e., we could replace $alpha^lambda_alpha < kappa$ with a disjoint family $X_alpha_alpha < kappa$, $|X_alpha| = |alpha|$. Is this the right line of thinking?







share|cite|improve this question


















  • 1




    Just as equality of sets is two containments, many equalities in cardinal arithmetic are really two inequalities. In the case at hand, it should be obvious the right-hand side is no larger than the other. For the other, find an injection from the set of functions on the left to a disjoint union of sets coding the right hand side. You are right that one cannot directly apply the definition in p. 52. On the other hand, once one is aware of the strategy I outlined, the equality should follow obviously, as Jech suggests.
    – Andrés E. Caicedo
    Aug 12 at 0:39










  • Without the Axiom of Choice we cannot define the ordinal $kappa^lambda$ when $kappa$ is an ordinal greater than $2$ and $lambda$ is an infinite ordinal.
    – DanielWainfleet
    Aug 12 at 3:46










  • @DanielWainfleet: That is absolute nonsense.
    – Asaf Karagila♦
    Aug 12 at 6:15










  • @AsafKaragila Without AC how would you define the ordinal $2^omega$?
    – DanielWainfleet
    Aug 12 at 6:36










  • @DanielWainfleet: That's a loaded question. "Without a knife, how did you murder your mother?", well, I didn't murder anyone. And $2^omega$ is a set which may or may not have a well-ordering to it. But since you brought this up, how do you define the ordinal $2^omega$?
    – Asaf Karagila♦
    Aug 12 at 6:38














up vote
2
down vote

favorite












On page 57 in the 3rd Edition of Jech's Set Theory, he begins with the elaboration on cardinal exponentiation. To that end the Hausdorff formula is introduced by noticing that for a regular cardinal $kappa$,



beginequation
kappa^lambda = cup_alpha < kappa alpha^lambda,
endequation



with $lambda$ denoting an infinite cardinal. From this Jech-apparently obviously-concludes that



beginequation
kappa^lambda = sum_alpha < kappa |alpha|^lambda.
endequation



My question is about the above conclusion.



On page 52 infinite sums are defined for disjoint families. This prerequisite appears not to be met by $alpha^lambda_alpha < kappa$, since $beta < gamma implies beta^lambda subseteq gamma^lambda$. My question is therefore why Jech applies the definition of inifinite sums, despite $alpha^lambda_alpha < kappa$ not being a disjoint family.



Appendix: Unless I have completely misunderstood something, I would guess that the answer to my question lies in the axiom of choice, i.e., we could replace $alpha^lambda_alpha < kappa$ with a disjoint family $X_alpha_alpha < kappa$, $|X_alpha| = |alpha|$. Is this the right line of thinking?







share|cite|improve this question


















  • 1




    Just as equality of sets is two containments, many equalities in cardinal arithmetic are really two inequalities. In the case at hand, it should be obvious the right-hand side is no larger than the other. For the other, find an injection from the set of functions on the left to a disjoint union of sets coding the right hand side. You are right that one cannot directly apply the definition in p. 52. On the other hand, once one is aware of the strategy I outlined, the equality should follow obviously, as Jech suggests.
    – Andrés E. Caicedo
    Aug 12 at 0:39










  • Without the Axiom of Choice we cannot define the ordinal $kappa^lambda$ when $kappa$ is an ordinal greater than $2$ and $lambda$ is an infinite ordinal.
    – DanielWainfleet
    Aug 12 at 3:46










  • @DanielWainfleet: That is absolute nonsense.
    – Asaf Karagila♦
    Aug 12 at 6:15










  • @AsafKaragila Without AC how would you define the ordinal $2^omega$?
    – DanielWainfleet
    Aug 12 at 6:36










  • @DanielWainfleet: That's a loaded question. "Without a knife, how did you murder your mother?", well, I didn't murder anyone. And $2^omega$ is a set which may or may not have a well-ordering to it. But since you brought this up, how do you define the ordinal $2^omega$?
    – Asaf Karagila♦
    Aug 12 at 6:38












up vote
2
down vote

favorite









up vote
2
down vote

favorite











On page 57 in the 3rd Edition of Jech's Set Theory, he begins with the elaboration on cardinal exponentiation. To that end the Hausdorff formula is introduced by noticing that for a regular cardinal $kappa$,



beginequation
kappa^lambda = cup_alpha < kappa alpha^lambda,
endequation



with $lambda$ denoting an infinite cardinal. From this Jech-apparently obviously-concludes that



beginequation
kappa^lambda = sum_alpha < kappa |alpha|^lambda.
endequation



My question is about the above conclusion.



On page 52 infinite sums are defined for disjoint families. This prerequisite appears not to be met by $alpha^lambda_alpha < kappa$, since $beta < gamma implies beta^lambda subseteq gamma^lambda$. My question is therefore why Jech applies the definition of inifinite sums, despite $alpha^lambda_alpha < kappa$ not being a disjoint family.



Appendix: Unless I have completely misunderstood something, I would guess that the answer to my question lies in the axiom of choice, i.e., we could replace $alpha^lambda_alpha < kappa$ with a disjoint family $X_alpha_alpha < kappa$, $|X_alpha| = |alpha|$. Is this the right line of thinking?







share|cite|improve this question














On page 57 in the 3rd Edition of Jech's Set Theory, he begins with the elaboration on cardinal exponentiation. To that end the Hausdorff formula is introduced by noticing that for a regular cardinal $kappa$,



beginequation
kappa^lambda = cup_alpha < kappa alpha^lambda,
endequation



with $lambda$ denoting an infinite cardinal. From this Jech-apparently obviously-concludes that



beginequation
kappa^lambda = sum_alpha < kappa |alpha|^lambda.
endequation



My question is about the above conclusion.



On page 52 infinite sums are defined for disjoint families. This prerequisite appears not to be met by $alpha^lambda_alpha < kappa$, since $beta < gamma implies beta^lambda subseteq gamma^lambda$. My question is therefore why Jech applies the definition of inifinite sums, despite $alpha^lambda_alpha < kappa$ not being a disjoint family.



Appendix: Unless I have completely misunderstood something, I would guess that the answer to my question lies in the axiom of choice, i.e., we could replace $alpha^lambda_alpha < kappa$ with a disjoint family $X_alpha_alpha < kappa$, $|X_alpha| = |alpha|$. Is this the right line of thinking?









share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Aug 12 at 0:28

























asked Aug 12 at 0:22









user480881

687




687







  • 1




    Just as equality of sets is two containments, many equalities in cardinal arithmetic are really two inequalities. In the case at hand, it should be obvious the right-hand side is no larger than the other. For the other, find an injection from the set of functions on the left to a disjoint union of sets coding the right hand side. You are right that one cannot directly apply the definition in p. 52. On the other hand, once one is aware of the strategy I outlined, the equality should follow obviously, as Jech suggests.
    – Andrés E. Caicedo
    Aug 12 at 0:39










  • Without the Axiom of Choice we cannot define the ordinal $kappa^lambda$ when $kappa$ is an ordinal greater than $2$ and $lambda$ is an infinite ordinal.
    – DanielWainfleet
    Aug 12 at 3:46










  • @DanielWainfleet: That is absolute nonsense.
    – Asaf Karagila♦
    Aug 12 at 6:15










  • @AsafKaragila Without AC how would you define the ordinal $2^omega$?
    – DanielWainfleet
    Aug 12 at 6:36










  • @DanielWainfleet: That's a loaded question. "Without a knife, how did you murder your mother?", well, I didn't murder anyone. And $2^omega$ is a set which may or may not have a well-ordering to it. But since you brought this up, how do you define the ordinal $2^omega$?
    – Asaf Karagila♦
    Aug 12 at 6:38












  • 1




    Just as equality of sets is two containments, many equalities in cardinal arithmetic are really two inequalities. In the case at hand, it should be obvious the right-hand side is no larger than the other. For the other, find an injection from the set of functions on the left to a disjoint union of sets coding the right hand side. You are right that one cannot directly apply the definition in p. 52. On the other hand, once one is aware of the strategy I outlined, the equality should follow obviously, as Jech suggests.
    – Andrés E. Caicedo
    Aug 12 at 0:39










  • Without the Axiom of Choice we cannot define the ordinal $kappa^lambda$ when $kappa$ is an ordinal greater than $2$ and $lambda$ is an infinite ordinal.
    – DanielWainfleet
    Aug 12 at 3:46










  • @DanielWainfleet: That is absolute nonsense.
    – Asaf Karagila♦
    Aug 12 at 6:15










  • @AsafKaragila Without AC how would you define the ordinal $2^omega$?
    – DanielWainfleet
    Aug 12 at 6:36










  • @DanielWainfleet: That's a loaded question. "Without a knife, how did you murder your mother?", well, I didn't murder anyone. And $2^omega$ is a set which may or may not have a well-ordering to it. But since you brought this up, how do you define the ordinal $2^omega$?
    – Asaf Karagila♦
    Aug 12 at 6:38







1




1




Just as equality of sets is two containments, many equalities in cardinal arithmetic are really two inequalities. In the case at hand, it should be obvious the right-hand side is no larger than the other. For the other, find an injection from the set of functions on the left to a disjoint union of sets coding the right hand side. You are right that one cannot directly apply the definition in p. 52. On the other hand, once one is aware of the strategy I outlined, the equality should follow obviously, as Jech suggests.
– Andrés E. Caicedo
Aug 12 at 0:39




Just as equality of sets is two containments, many equalities in cardinal arithmetic are really two inequalities. In the case at hand, it should be obvious the right-hand side is no larger than the other. For the other, find an injection from the set of functions on the left to a disjoint union of sets coding the right hand side. You are right that one cannot directly apply the definition in p. 52. On the other hand, once one is aware of the strategy I outlined, the equality should follow obviously, as Jech suggests.
– Andrés E. Caicedo
Aug 12 at 0:39












Without the Axiom of Choice we cannot define the ordinal $kappa^lambda$ when $kappa$ is an ordinal greater than $2$ and $lambda$ is an infinite ordinal.
– DanielWainfleet
Aug 12 at 3:46




Without the Axiom of Choice we cannot define the ordinal $kappa^lambda$ when $kappa$ is an ordinal greater than $2$ and $lambda$ is an infinite ordinal.
– DanielWainfleet
Aug 12 at 3:46












@DanielWainfleet: That is absolute nonsense.
– Asaf Karagila♦
Aug 12 at 6:15




@DanielWainfleet: That is absolute nonsense.
– Asaf Karagila♦
Aug 12 at 6:15












@AsafKaragila Without AC how would you define the ordinal $2^omega$?
– DanielWainfleet
Aug 12 at 6:36




@AsafKaragila Without AC how would you define the ordinal $2^omega$?
– DanielWainfleet
Aug 12 at 6:36












@DanielWainfleet: That's a loaded question. "Without a knife, how did you murder your mother?", well, I didn't murder anyone. And $2^omega$ is a set which may or may not have a well-ordering to it. But since you brought this up, how do you define the ordinal $2^omega$?
– Asaf Karagila♦
Aug 12 at 6:38




@DanielWainfleet: That's a loaded question. "Without a knife, how did you murder your mother?", well, I didn't murder anyone. And $2^omega$ is a set which may or may not have a well-ordering to it. But since you brought this up, how do you define the ordinal $2^omega$?
– Asaf Karagila♦
Aug 12 at 6:38










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
3
down vote



accepted










Using the regularity of $kappa$ and the fact that the infinite cardinal $lambda$ is less than $kappa$, Jech notes that
$$ kappa^lambda=bigcup_alpha<kappaalpha^lambda, $$
where both sides are understood as sets of functions. From this, he claims that, as cardinals,
$$ kappa^lambda=sum_alpha<kappa|alpha|^lambda. $$
This would be obvious if the sets $alpha^lambda$ were disjoint as $alpha$ varies but, as you point out, this is clearly not the case.



You suggest instead to replace these sets by disjoint copies, say replacing $alpha$ by $hatalpha=alphatimesalpha$ for each $alpha<kappa$. This changes the union $bigcup_alphaalpha^lambda$ into the disjoint union $bigcup_alphahatalpha^lambda$. Note that there is an obvious injection from the former into the latter: Given any function $finbigcup_alphaalpha^lambda$, find the least $alpha$ such that $f!:lambdatoalpha$, and map $f$ to its copy in $hatalpha^lambda$.



This means that
$$ kappa^lambdalesum_alpha<kappa|alpha|^lambda. $$
However, Jech is claiming more, namely, equality rather than the inequality we just showed.
Luckily for us, the inequality
$$ sum_alpha<kappa|alpha|^lambdalekappa^lambda $$
is quite easy to establish: First, for each $alpha<kappa$, $|alpha|^lambdalekappa^lambda$, so $sum_alpha<kappa|alpha|^lambda le sum_alpha<kappakappa^lambda=kappacdotkappa^lambda=kappa^lambda$. Note that this is the only place where we used that $lambda$ is infinite (in fact, it suffices that $lambda>0$).



From the two inequalities, the claimed equality now follows. Let me close by pointing out that this is a really useful heuristic: just as equality of sets is two containments, many equalities in cardinal arithmetic are really two inequalities.



In the case at hand, one of the inequalities turned out to be obvious upon inspection. This is actually not so uncommon. The strategy you suggested, of replacing a union by a disjoint union so that its cardinality can be estimated via Jech's definition of infinite sums of cardinals, turns out to be very useful in practice.






share|cite|improve this answer






















  • Dear Andrés E. Caicedo, Thank you for this elaboration. This answers my question.
    – user480881
    Aug 12 at 18:07










  • Glad to help. Cardinal arithmetic is full of pretty and interesting ideas.
    – Andrés E. Caicedo
    Aug 12 at 18:25

















up vote
0
down vote













The formula $cup_a<l(a^l)$ is not a presentation of a sum of ordinals. It is the union of a set of cardinal ordinals. (And therefore it $is$ a cardinal ordinal.)



The statement $k^l=cup_a<k(a^l)$ (when $k$ is an infinite regular cardinal ordinal) and $l$ is an infinite cardinal ordinal)) means (i) $forall a<k;(a^lleq k^l)$ and (ii) $forall xin k^l;exists a<k ;(xin a^k).$



In cardinal arithmetic, when $a$ and $b$ are cardinals then $a^b$ is the cardinal of the set of functions from $b$ to $a$ . So (i) above is obvious.






share|cite|improve this answer




















  • Usually i would go into detail on this but right now I'm sleepy.
    – DanielWainfleet
    Aug 12 at 4:08










  • This has nothing to do with the question.
    – Andrés E. Caicedo
    Aug 12 at 11:09










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2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes








2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes








up vote
3
down vote



accepted










Using the regularity of $kappa$ and the fact that the infinite cardinal $lambda$ is less than $kappa$, Jech notes that
$$ kappa^lambda=bigcup_alpha<kappaalpha^lambda, $$
where both sides are understood as sets of functions. From this, he claims that, as cardinals,
$$ kappa^lambda=sum_alpha<kappa|alpha|^lambda. $$
This would be obvious if the sets $alpha^lambda$ were disjoint as $alpha$ varies but, as you point out, this is clearly not the case.



You suggest instead to replace these sets by disjoint copies, say replacing $alpha$ by $hatalpha=alphatimesalpha$ for each $alpha<kappa$. This changes the union $bigcup_alphaalpha^lambda$ into the disjoint union $bigcup_alphahatalpha^lambda$. Note that there is an obvious injection from the former into the latter: Given any function $finbigcup_alphaalpha^lambda$, find the least $alpha$ such that $f!:lambdatoalpha$, and map $f$ to its copy in $hatalpha^lambda$.



This means that
$$ kappa^lambdalesum_alpha<kappa|alpha|^lambda. $$
However, Jech is claiming more, namely, equality rather than the inequality we just showed.
Luckily for us, the inequality
$$ sum_alpha<kappa|alpha|^lambdalekappa^lambda $$
is quite easy to establish: First, for each $alpha<kappa$, $|alpha|^lambdalekappa^lambda$, so $sum_alpha<kappa|alpha|^lambda le sum_alpha<kappakappa^lambda=kappacdotkappa^lambda=kappa^lambda$. Note that this is the only place where we used that $lambda$ is infinite (in fact, it suffices that $lambda>0$).



From the two inequalities, the claimed equality now follows. Let me close by pointing out that this is a really useful heuristic: just as equality of sets is two containments, many equalities in cardinal arithmetic are really two inequalities.



In the case at hand, one of the inequalities turned out to be obvious upon inspection. This is actually not so uncommon. The strategy you suggested, of replacing a union by a disjoint union so that its cardinality can be estimated via Jech's definition of infinite sums of cardinals, turns out to be very useful in practice.






share|cite|improve this answer






















  • Dear Andrés E. Caicedo, Thank you for this elaboration. This answers my question.
    – user480881
    Aug 12 at 18:07










  • Glad to help. Cardinal arithmetic is full of pretty and interesting ideas.
    – Andrés E. Caicedo
    Aug 12 at 18:25














up vote
3
down vote



accepted










Using the regularity of $kappa$ and the fact that the infinite cardinal $lambda$ is less than $kappa$, Jech notes that
$$ kappa^lambda=bigcup_alpha<kappaalpha^lambda, $$
where both sides are understood as sets of functions. From this, he claims that, as cardinals,
$$ kappa^lambda=sum_alpha<kappa|alpha|^lambda. $$
This would be obvious if the sets $alpha^lambda$ were disjoint as $alpha$ varies but, as you point out, this is clearly not the case.



You suggest instead to replace these sets by disjoint copies, say replacing $alpha$ by $hatalpha=alphatimesalpha$ for each $alpha<kappa$. This changes the union $bigcup_alphaalpha^lambda$ into the disjoint union $bigcup_alphahatalpha^lambda$. Note that there is an obvious injection from the former into the latter: Given any function $finbigcup_alphaalpha^lambda$, find the least $alpha$ such that $f!:lambdatoalpha$, and map $f$ to its copy in $hatalpha^lambda$.



This means that
$$ kappa^lambdalesum_alpha<kappa|alpha|^lambda. $$
However, Jech is claiming more, namely, equality rather than the inequality we just showed.
Luckily for us, the inequality
$$ sum_alpha<kappa|alpha|^lambdalekappa^lambda $$
is quite easy to establish: First, for each $alpha<kappa$, $|alpha|^lambdalekappa^lambda$, so $sum_alpha<kappa|alpha|^lambda le sum_alpha<kappakappa^lambda=kappacdotkappa^lambda=kappa^lambda$. Note that this is the only place where we used that $lambda$ is infinite (in fact, it suffices that $lambda>0$).



From the two inequalities, the claimed equality now follows. Let me close by pointing out that this is a really useful heuristic: just as equality of sets is two containments, many equalities in cardinal arithmetic are really two inequalities.



In the case at hand, one of the inequalities turned out to be obvious upon inspection. This is actually not so uncommon. The strategy you suggested, of replacing a union by a disjoint union so that its cardinality can be estimated via Jech's definition of infinite sums of cardinals, turns out to be very useful in practice.






share|cite|improve this answer






















  • Dear Andrés E. Caicedo, Thank you for this elaboration. This answers my question.
    – user480881
    Aug 12 at 18:07










  • Glad to help. Cardinal arithmetic is full of pretty and interesting ideas.
    – Andrés E. Caicedo
    Aug 12 at 18:25












up vote
3
down vote



accepted







up vote
3
down vote



accepted






Using the regularity of $kappa$ and the fact that the infinite cardinal $lambda$ is less than $kappa$, Jech notes that
$$ kappa^lambda=bigcup_alpha<kappaalpha^lambda, $$
where both sides are understood as sets of functions. From this, he claims that, as cardinals,
$$ kappa^lambda=sum_alpha<kappa|alpha|^lambda. $$
This would be obvious if the sets $alpha^lambda$ were disjoint as $alpha$ varies but, as you point out, this is clearly not the case.



You suggest instead to replace these sets by disjoint copies, say replacing $alpha$ by $hatalpha=alphatimesalpha$ for each $alpha<kappa$. This changes the union $bigcup_alphaalpha^lambda$ into the disjoint union $bigcup_alphahatalpha^lambda$. Note that there is an obvious injection from the former into the latter: Given any function $finbigcup_alphaalpha^lambda$, find the least $alpha$ such that $f!:lambdatoalpha$, and map $f$ to its copy in $hatalpha^lambda$.



This means that
$$ kappa^lambdalesum_alpha<kappa|alpha|^lambda. $$
However, Jech is claiming more, namely, equality rather than the inequality we just showed.
Luckily for us, the inequality
$$ sum_alpha<kappa|alpha|^lambdalekappa^lambda $$
is quite easy to establish: First, for each $alpha<kappa$, $|alpha|^lambdalekappa^lambda$, so $sum_alpha<kappa|alpha|^lambda le sum_alpha<kappakappa^lambda=kappacdotkappa^lambda=kappa^lambda$. Note that this is the only place where we used that $lambda$ is infinite (in fact, it suffices that $lambda>0$).



From the two inequalities, the claimed equality now follows. Let me close by pointing out that this is a really useful heuristic: just as equality of sets is two containments, many equalities in cardinal arithmetic are really two inequalities.



In the case at hand, one of the inequalities turned out to be obvious upon inspection. This is actually not so uncommon. The strategy you suggested, of replacing a union by a disjoint union so that its cardinality can be estimated via Jech's definition of infinite sums of cardinals, turns out to be very useful in practice.






share|cite|improve this answer














Using the regularity of $kappa$ and the fact that the infinite cardinal $lambda$ is less than $kappa$, Jech notes that
$$ kappa^lambda=bigcup_alpha<kappaalpha^lambda, $$
where both sides are understood as sets of functions. From this, he claims that, as cardinals,
$$ kappa^lambda=sum_alpha<kappa|alpha|^lambda. $$
This would be obvious if the sets $alpha^lambda$ were disjoint as $alpha$ varies but, as you point out, this is clearly not the case.



You suggest instead to replace these sets by disjoint copies, say replacing $alpha$ by $hatalpha=alphatimesalpha$ for each $alpha<kappa$. This changes the union $bigcup_alphaalpha^lambda$ into the disjoint union $bigcup_alphahatalpha^lambda$. Note that there is an obvious injection from the former into the latter: Given any function $finbigcup_alphaalpha^lambda$, find the least $alpha$ such that $f!:lambdatoalpha$, and map $f$ to its copy in $hatalpha^lambda$.



This means that
$$ kappa^lambdalesum_alpha<kappa|alpha|^lambda. $$
However, Jech is claiming more, namely, equality rather than the inequality we just showed.
Luckily for us, the inequality
$$ sum_alpha<kappa|alpha|^lambdalekappa^lambda $$
is quite easy to establish: First, for each $alpha<kappa$, $|alpha|^lambdalekappa^lambda$, so $sum_alpha<kappa|alpha|^lambda le sum_alpha<kappakappa^lambda=kappacdotkappa^lambda=kappa^lambda$. Note that this is the only place where we used that $lambda$ is infinite (in fact, it suffices that $lambda>0$).



From the two inequalities, the claimed equality now follows. Let me close by pointing out that this is a really useful heuristic: just as equality of sets is two containments, many equalities in cardinal arithmetic are really two inequalities.



In the case at hand, one of the inequalities turned out to be obvious upon inspection. This is actually not so uncommon. The strategy you suggested, of replacing a union by a disjoint union so that its cardinality can be estimated via Jech's definition of infinite sums of cardinals, turns out to be very useful in practice.







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited Aug 12 at 17:04

























answered Aug 12 at 13:16









Andrés E. Caicedo

63.2k7151237




63.2k7151237











  • Dear Andrés E. Caicedo, Thank you for this elaboration. This answers my question.
    – user480881
    Aug 12 at 18:07










  • Glad to help. Cardinal arithmetic is full of pretty and interesting ideas.
    – Andrés E. Caicedo
    Aug 12 at 18:25
















  • Dear Andrés E. Caicedo, Thank you for this elaboration. This answers my question.
    – user480881
    Aug 12 at 18:07










  • Glad to help. Cardinal arithmetic is full of pretty and interesting ideas.
    – Andrés E. Caicedo
    Aug 12 at 18:25















Dear Andrés E. Caicedo, Thank you for this elaboration. This answers my question.
– user480881
Aug 12 at 18:07




Dear Andrés E. Caicedo, Thank you for this elaboration. This answers my question.
– user480881
Aug 12 at 18:07












Glad to help. Cardinal arithmetic is full of pretty and interesting ideas.
– Andrés E. Caicedo
Aug 12 at 18:25




Glad to help. Cardinal arithmetic is full of pretty and interesting ideas.
– Andrés E. Caicedo
Aug 12 at 18:25










up vote
0
down vote













The formula $cup_a<l(a^l)$ is not a presentation of a sum of ordinals. It is the union of a set of cardinal ordinals. (And therefore it $is$ a cardinal ordinal.)



The statement $k^l=cup_a<k(a^l)$ (when $k$ is an infinite regular cardinal ordinal) and $l$ is an infinite cardinal ordinal)) means (i) $forall a<k;(a^lleq k^l)$ and (ii) $forall xin k^l;exists a<k ;(xin a^k).$



In cardinal arithmetic, when $a$ and $b$ are cardinals then $a^b$ is the cardinal of the set of functions from $b$ to $a$ . So (i) above is obvious.






share|cite|improve this answer




















  • Usually i would go into detail on this but right now I'm sleepy.
    – DanielWainfleet
    Aug 12 at 4:08










  • This has nothing to do with the question.
    – Andrés E. Caicedo
    Aug 12 at 11:09














up vote
0
down vote













The formula $cup_a<l(a^l)$ is not a presentation of a sum of ordinals. It is the union of a set of cardinal ordinals. (And therefore it $is$ a cardinal ordinal.)



The statement $k^l=cup_a<k(a^l)$ (when $k$ is an infinite regular cardinal ordinal) and $l$ is an infinite cardinal ordinal)) means (i) $forall a<k;(a^lleq k^l)$ and (ii) $forall xin k^l;exists a<k ;(xin a^k).$



In cardinal arithmetic, when $a$ and $b$ are cardinals then $a^b$ is the cardinal of the set of functions from $b$ to $a$ . So (i) above is obvious.






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  • Usually i would go into detail on this but right now I'm sleepy.
    – DanielWainfleet
    Aug 12 at 4:08










  • This has nothing to do with the question.
    – Andrés E. Caicedo
    Aug 12 at 11:09












up vote
0
down vote










up vote
0
down vote









The formula $cup_a<l(a^l)$ is not a presentation of a sum of ordinals. It is the union of a set of cardinal ordinals. (And therefore it $is$ a cardinal ordinal.)



The statement $k^l=cup_a<k(a^l)$ (when $k$ is an infinite regular cardinal ordinal) and $l$ is an infinite cardinal ordinal)) means (i) $forall a<k;(a^lleq k^l)$ and (ii) $forall xin k^l;exists a<k ;(xin a^k).$



In cardinal arithmetic, when $a$ and $b$ are cardinals then $a^b$ is the cardinal of the set of functions from $b$ to $a$ . So (i) above is obvious.






share|cite|improve this answer












The formula $cup_a<l(a^l)$ is not a presentation of a sum of ordinals. It is the union of a set of cardinal ordinals. (And therefore it $is$ a cardinal ordinal.)



The statement $k^l=cup_a<k(a^l)$ (when $k$ is an infinite regular cardinal ordinal) and $l$ is an infinite cardinal ordinal)) means (i) $forall a<k;(a^lleq k^l)$ and (ii) $forall xin k^l;exists a<k ;(xin a^k).$



In cardinal arithmetic, when $a$ and $b$ are cardinals then $a^b$ is the cardinal of the set of functions from $b$ to $a$ . So (i) above is obvious.







share|cite|improve this answer












share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer










answered Aug 12 at 4:07









DanielWainfleet

31.8k31644




31.8k31644











  • Usually i would go into detail on this but right now I'm sleepy.
    – DanielWainfleet
    Aug 12 at 4:08










  • This has nothing to do with the question.
    – Andrés E. Caicedo
    Aug 12 at 11:09
















  • Usually i would go into detail on this but right now I'm sleepy.
    – DanielWainfleet
    Aug 12 at 4:08










  • This has nothing to do with the question.
    – Andrés E. Caicedo
    Aug 12 at 11:09















Usually i would go into detail on this but right now I'm sleepy.
– DanielWainfleet
Aug 12 at 4:08




Usually i would go into detail on this but right now I'm sleepy.
– DanielWainfleet
Aug 12 at 4:08












This has nothing to do with the question.
– Andrés E. Caicedo
Aug 12 at 11:09




This has nothing to do with the question.
– Andrés E. Caicedo
Aug 12 at 11:09












 

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