David Williams “Probability with Martingales” Exercise 4.1

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Let me preface this by saying that basically the same question has been asked before on the StackExchange. However, there is one small detail in an exercise that I cannot reconcile.



The following question is Exercise 4.1 in "Probability with Martingales" by David Williams:




Let $(Omega, mathcalF, P)$ be a probability triple. Let $mathcalI_1$, $mathcalI_2$, and $mathcalI_3$ be three $pi$-systems on $Omega$ such that for $k=1,2,3$,
$$mathcalI_KsubseteqmathcalFquad textand quadOmegain mathcalI_k.$$
Prove that if $$P(I_1cap I_2cap I_3) = P(I_1) cdot P(I_2) cdot P(I_3)$$ whenever $I_kin mathcalI_k$ (k=1,2,3), then $sigma(mathcalI_1)$, $sigma(mathcalI_2)$, and $sigma(mathcalI_3)$ are independent. Why did we require the $OmegainmathcalI_k$?




It seems to me that one can simply mock the proof directly from the Lemma on page 39 in his book where $k=2$. I believe I successfully did the proof. However, in that Lemma, there was not the assumption that $OmegainmathcalI_k$ for $k=1,2$. So I am confused by his assumption in E4.1, and question as to "Why did we require the $OmegainmathcalI_k$?" Is this simply a callously worded exercise where the answer is "We did need this assumption." Or am I in fact missing something?




The proof I have is as follows (again, this is just a mockery if a previous Williams Lemma)...



Fix $I_1inmathcalI_1$ and $I_2inmathcalI_2$. Consider the maps
$$ J_3 mapsto P(I_1cap I_2cap J_3) quad textandquad J_3mapsto P(I_1)cdot P(I_2)cdot P(J_3),$$
for $J_3insigma(mathcalI_3)$. One can verify that these are measures on the measure space $(Omega, sigma(mathcalI_3))$, that they both have a total mass of...



OH WAIT! Just as I was typing the "..." above I realized something. I think the technical difficulty here is because William's earlier Lemma used a result that if two finite measures agree on a $pi$-system and have the SAME total mass, then they agree on the $sigma$-algebra generated by the $pi$-system.



Therefore, the technical issue is that the total mass of the two measures above are
$$P(I_1cap I_2)quad textandquad P(I_1)cdot P(I_2),$$
respectively. If $Omeganotin mathcalI_3$, it is not necessarily the case that the above two numbers equal (since the condition in the problem is specifically for all three $pi$-systems at once). Using this approach by creating measures two more times, the same issue will come up, requiring that $OmegainmathcalI_k$ for $k=1,2$.




This begs the following question...is the requirement that $Omegain mathcalI_k$ only an issue for this particular proof? The previous question here does not require this for the same question. However, the proof there made use of the $pi-lambda$ theorem, which was not directly used in the earlier Lemma in Williams (for the $k=2$ case; although, recall that there they actually did not need the requirement that $OmegainmathcalI_k$ for $k=1,2$ for that proof).










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  • 1




    Callously worded as in "kill all the witnesses to this exercise"?
    – Misha Lavrov
    Aug 30 at 23:35










  • @MishaLavrov basically :)
    – Satana
    Aug 31 at 0:41














up vote
1
down vote

favorite












Let me preface this by saying that basically the same question has been asked before on the StackExchange. However, there is one small detail in an exercise that I cannot reconcile.



The following question is Exercise 4.1 in "Probability with Martingales" by David Williams:




Let $(Omega, mathcalF, P)$ be a probability triple. Let $mathcalI_1$, $mathcalI_2$, and $mathcalI_3$ be three $pi$-systems on $Omega$ such that for $k=1,2,3$,
$$mathcalI_KsubseteqmathcalFquad textand quadOmegain mathcalI_k.$$
Prove that if $$P(I_1cap I_2cap I_3) = P(I_1) cdot P(I_2) cdot P(I_3)$$ whenever $I_kin mathcalI_k$ (k=1,2,3), then $sigma(mathcalI_1)$, $sigma(mathcalI_2)$, and $sigma(mathcalI_3)$ are independent. Why did we require the $OmegainmathcalI_k$?




It seems to me that one can simply mock the proof directly from the Lemma on page 39 in his book where $k=2$. I believe I successfully did the proof. However, in that Lemma, there was not the assumption that $OmegainmathcalI_k$ for $k=1,2$. So I am confused by his assumption in E4.1, and question as to "Why did we require the $OmegainmathcalI_k$?" Is this simply a callously worded exercise where the answer is "We did need this assumption." Or am I in fact missing something?




The proof I have is as follows (again, this is just a mockery if a previous Williams Lemma)...



Fix $I_1inmathcalI_1$ and $I_2inmathcalI_2$. Consider the maps
$$ J_3 mapsto P(I_1cap I_2cap J_3) quad textandquad J_3mapsto P(I_1)cdot P(I_2)cdot P(J_3),$$
for $J_3insigma(mathcalI_3)$. One can verify that these are measures on the measure space $(Omega, sigma(mathcalI_3))$, that they both have a total mass of...



OH WAIT! Just as I was typing the "..." above I realized something. I think the technical difficulty here is because William's earlier Lemma used a result that if two finite measures agree on a $pi$-system and have the SAME total mass, then they agree on the $sigma$-algebra generated by the $pi$-system.



Therefore, the technical issue is that the total mass of the two measures above are
$$P(I_1cap I_2)quad textandquad P(I_1)cdot P(I_2),$$
respectively. If $Omeganotin mathcalI_3$, it is not necessarily the case that the above two numbers equal (since the condition in the problem is specifically for all three $pi$-systems at once). Using this approach by creating measures two more times, the same issue will come up, requiring that $OmegainmathcalI_k$ for $k=1,2$.




This begs the following question...is the requirement that $Omegain mathcalI_k$ only an issue for this particular proof? The previous question here does not require this for the same question. However, the proof there made use of the $pi-lambda$ theorem, which was not directly used in the earlier Lemma in Williams (for the $k=2$ case; although, recall that there they actually did not need the requirement that $OmegainmathcalI_k$ for $k=1,2$ for that proof).










share|cite|improve this question



















  • 1




    Callously worded as in "kill all the witnesses to this exercise"?
    – Misha Lavrov
    Aug 30 at 23:35










  • @MishaLavrov basically :)
    – Satana
    Aug 31 at 0:41












up vote
1
down vote

favorite









up vote
1
down vote

favorite











Let me preface this by saying that basically the same question has been asked before on the StackExchange. However, there is one small detail in an exercise that I cannot reconcile.



The following question is Exercise 4.1 in "Probability with Martingales" by David Williams:




Let $(Omega, mathcalF, P)$ be a probability triple. Let $mathcalI_1$, $mathcalI_2$, and $mathcalI_3$ be three $pi$-systems on $Omega$ such that for $k=1,2,3$,
$$mathcalI_KsubseteqmathcalFquad textand quadOmegain mathcalI_k.$$
Prove that if $$P(I_1cap I_2cap I_3) = P(I_1) cdot P(I_2) cdot P(I_3)$$ whenever $I_kin mathcalI_k$ (k=1,2,3), then $sigma(mathcalI_1)$, $sigma(mathcalI_2)$, and $sigma(mathcalI_3)$ are independent. Why did we require the $OmegainmathcalI_k$?




It seems to me that one can simply mock the proof directly from the Lemma on page 39 in his book where $k=2$. I believe I successfully did the proof. However, in that Lemma, there was not the assumption that $OmegainmathcalI_k$ for $k=1,2$. So I am confused by his assumption in E4.1, and question as to "Why did we require the $OmegainmathcalI_k$?" Is this simply a callously worded exercise where the answer is "We did need this assumption." Or am I in fact missing something?




The proof I have is as follows (again, this is just a mockery if a previous Williams Lemma)...



Fix $I_1inmathcalI_1$ and $I_2inmathcalI_2$. Consider the maps
$$ J_3 mapsto P(I_1cap I_2cap J_3) quad textandquad J_3mapsto P(I_1)cdot P(I_2)cdot P(J_3),$$
for $J_3insigma(mathcalI_3)$. One can verify that these are measures on the measure space $(Omega, sigma(mathcalI_3))$, that they both have a total mass of...



OH WAIT! Just as I was typing the "..." above I realized something. I think the technical difficulty here is because William's earlier Lemma used a result that if two finite measures agree on a $pi$-system and have the SAME total mass, then they agree on the $sigma$-algebra generated by the $pi$-system.



Therefore, the technical issue is that the total mass of the two measures above are
$$P(I_1cap I_2)quad textandquad P(I_1)cdot P(I_2),$$
respectively. If $Omeganotin mathcalI_3$, it is not necessarily the case that the above two numbers equal (since the condition in the problem is specifically for all three $pi$-systems at once). Using this approach by creating measures two more times, the same issue will come up, requiring that $OmegainmathcalI_k$ for $k=1,2$.




This begs the following question...is the requirement that $Omegain mathcalI_k$ only an issue for this particular proof? The previous question here does not require this for the same question. However, the proof there made use of the $pi-lambda$ theorem, which was not directly used in the earlier Lemma in Williams (for the $k=2$ case; although, recall that there they actually did not need the requirement that $OmegainmathcalI_k$ for $k=1,2$ for that proof).










share|cite|improve this question















Let me preface this by saying that basically the same question has been asked before on the StackExchange. However, there is one small detail in an exercise that I cannot reconcile.



The following question is Exercise 4.1 in "Probability with Martingales" by David Williams:




Let $(Omega, mathcalF, P)$ be a probability triple. Let $mathcalI_1$, $mathcalI_2$, and $mathcalI_3$ be three $pi$-systems on $Omega$ such that for $k=1,2,3$,
$$mathcalI_KsubseteqmathcalFquad textand quadOmegain mathcalI_k.$$
Prove that if $$P(I_1cap I_2cap I_3) = P(I_1) cdot P(I_2) cdot P(I_3)$$ whenever $I_kin mathcalI_k$ (k=1,2,3), then $sigma(mathcalI_1)$, $sigma(mathcalI_2)$, and $sigma(mathcalI_3)$ are independent. Why did we require the $OmegainmathcalI_k$?




It seems to me that one can simply mock the proof directly from the Lemma on page 39 in his book where $k=2$. I believe I successfully did the proof. However, in that Lemma, there was not the assumption that $OmegainmathcalI_k$ for $k=1,2$. So I am confused by his assumption in E4.1, and question as to "Why did we require the $OmegainmathcalI_k$?" Is this simply a callously worded exercise where the answer is "We did need this assumption." Or am I in fact missing something?




The proof I have is as follows (again, this is just a mockery if a previous Williams Lemma)...



Fix $I_1inmathcalI_1$ and $I_2inmathcalI_2$. Consider the maps
$$ J_3 mapsto P(I_1cap I_2cap J_3) quad textandquad J_3mapsto P(I_1)cdot P(I_2)cdot P(J_3),$$
for $J_3insigma(mathcalI_3)$. One can verify that these are measures on the measure space $(Omega, sigma(mathcalI_3))$, that they both have a total mass of...



OH WAIT! Just as I was typing the "..." above I realized something. I think the technical difficulty here is because William's earlier Lemma used a result that if two finite measures agree on a $pi$-system and have the SAME total mass, then they agree on the $sigma$-algebra generated by the $pi$-system.



Therefore, the technical issue is that the total mass of the two measures above are
$$P(I_1cap I_2)quad textandquad P(I_1)cdot P(I_2),$$
respectively. If $Omeganotin mathcalI_3$, it is not necessarily the case that the above two numbers equal (since the condition in the problem is specifically for all three $pi$-systems at once). Using this approach by creating measures two more times, the same issue will come up, requiring that $OmegainmathcalI_k$ for $k=1,2$.




This begs the following question...is the requirement that $Omegain mathcalI_k$ only an issue for this particular proof? The previous question here does not require this for the same question. However, the proof there made use of the $pi-lambda$ theorem, which was not directly used in the earlier Lemma in Williams (for the $k=2$ case; although, recall that there they actually did not need the requirement that $OmegainmathcalI_k$ for $k=1,2$ for that proof).







probability probability-theory measure-theory






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edited Aug 31 at 3:49

























asked Aug 30 at 23:16









Satana

12311




12311







  • 1




    Callously worded as in "kill all the witnesses to this exercise"?
    – Misha Lavrov
    Aug 30 at 23:35










  • @MishaLavrov basically :)
    – Satana
    Aug 31 at 0:41












  • 1




    Callously worded as in "kill all the witnesses to this exercise"?
    – Misha Lavrov
    Aug 30 at 23:35










  • @MishaLavrov basically :)
    – Satana
    Aug 31 at 0:41







1




1




Callously worded as in "kill all the witnesses to this exercise"?
– Misha Lavrov
Aug 30 at 23:35




Callously worded as in "kill all the witnesses to this exercise"?
– Misha Lavrov
Aug 30 at 23:35












@MishaLavrov basically :)
– Satana
Aug 31 at 0:41




@MishaLavrov basically :)
– Satana
Aug 31 at 0:41










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
1
down vote



accepted










Regarding your new question: The hypothesis $Omegaincal I_k$ for each $k$ is necessary when we're talking about independence of sigma-algebras generated from more than two $pi$-systems, for the reason that you discovered. (The other question that you linked should have required the hypothesis. Note that the accepted answer does assume that $Omega$ is among the sets for which the independence holds.)



When there are two $pi$-systems, then the assertion $P(Omegacap H)=P(Omega)P(H)$ holds vacuously, so including the hypothesis would be unnecessary.



If you look closely at the proof of Lemma 1.6 in Williams' Appendix A, you'll see that the requirement $mu_1(Omega)=mu_2(Omega)$ is necessary before we can apply Dynkin's lemma.






share|cite|improve this answer





























    up vote
    1
    down vote













    What if $mathcal I_3$ consists of just the empty set. Then hypothesis holds for any $mathcal I_1$ and $mathcal I_2$ ; $mathcal I_1$ and $mathcal I_2$ need not be independent.






    share|cite|improve this answer




















    • Thanks Kavi - you made me realize something. I added it to the end of my question. I also posed another question. Would you be able to answer the new question? Thank you.
      – Satana
      Aug 31 at 0:37










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    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes








    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes








    up vote
    1
    down vote



    accepted










    Regarding your new question: The hypothesis $Omegaincal I_k$ for each $k$ is necessary when we're talking about independence of sigma-algebras generated from more than two $pi$-systems, for the reason that you discovered. (The other question that you linked should have required the hypothesis. Note that the accepted answer does assume that $Omega$ is among the sets for which the independence holds.)



    When there are two $pi$-systems, then the assertion $P(Omegacap H)=P(Omega)P(H)$ holds vacuously, so including the hypothesis would be unnecessary.



    If you look closely at the proof of Lemma 1.6 in Williams' Appendix A, you'll see that the requirement $mu_1(Omega)=mu_2(Omega)$ is necessary before we can apply Dynkin's lemma.






    share|cite|improve this answer


























      up vote
      1
      down vote



      accepted










      Regarding your new question: The hypothesis $Omegaincal I_k$ for each $k$ is necessary when we're talking about independence of sigma-algebras generated from more than two $pi$-systems, for the reason that you discovered. (The other question that you linked should have required the hypothesis. Note that the accepted answer does assume that $Omega$ is among the sets for which the independence holds.)



      When there are two $pi$-systems, then the assertion $P(Omegacap H)=P(Omega)P(H)$ holds vacuously, so including the hypothesis would be unnecessary.



      If you look closely at the proof of Lemma 1.6 in Williams' Appendix A, you'll see that the requirement $mu_1(Omega)=mu_2(Omega)$ is necessary before we can apply Dynkin's lemma.






      share|cite|improve this answer
























        up vote
        1
        down vote



        accepted







        up vote
        1
        down vote



        accepted






        Regarding your new question: The hypothesis $Omegaincal I_k$ for each $k$ is necessary when we're talking about independence of sigma-algebras generated from more than two $pi$-systems, for the reason that you discovered. (The other question that you linked should have required the hypothesis. Note that the accepted answer does assume that $Omega$ is among the sets for which the independence holds.)



        When there are two $pi$-systems, then the assertion $P(Omegacap H)=P(Omega)P(H)$ holds vacuously, so including the hypothesis would be unnecessary.



        If you look closely at the proof of Lemma 1.6 in Williams' Appendix A, you'll see that the requirement $mu_1(Omega)=mu_2(Omega)$ is necessary before we can apply Dynkin's lemma.






        share|cite|improve this answer














        Regarding your new question: The hypothesis $Omegaincal I_k$ for each $k$ is necessary when we're talking about independence of sigma-algebras generated from more than two $pi$-systems, for the reason that you discovered. (The other question that you linked should have required the hypothesis. Note that the accepted answer does assume that $Omega$ is among the sets for which the independence holds.)



        When there are two $pi$-systems, then the assertion $P(Omegacap H)=P(Omega)P(H)$ holds vacuously, so including the hypothesis would be unnecessary.



        If you look closely at the proof of Lemma 1.6 in Williams' Appendix A, you'll see that the requirement $mu_1(Omega)=mu_2(Omega)$ is necessary before we can apply Dynkin's lemma.







        share|cite|improve this answer














        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer








        edited Aug 31 at 1:11

























        answered Aug 31 at 0:54









        grand_chat

        18.3k11122




        18.3k11122




















            up vote
            1
            down vote













            What if $mathcal I_3$ consists of just the empty set. Then hypothesis holds for any $mathcal I_1$ and $mathcal I_2$ ; $mathcal I_1$ and $mathcal I_2$ need not be independent.






            share|cite|improve this answer




















            • Thanks Kavi - you made me realize something. I added it to the end of my question. I also posed another question. Would you be able to answer the new question? Thank you.
              – Satana
              Aug 31 at 0:37














            up vote
            1
            down vote













            What if $mathcal I_3$ consists of just the empty set. Then hypothesis holds for any $mathcal I_1$ and $mathcal I_2$ ; $mathcal I_1$ and $mathcal I_2$ need not be independent.






            share|cite|improve this answer




















            • Thanks Kavi - you made me realize something. I added it to the end of my question. I also posed another question. Would you be able to answer the new question? Thank you.
              – Satana
              Aug 31 at 0:37












            up vote
            1
            down vote










            up vote
            1
            down vote









            What if $mathcal I_3$ consists of just the empty set. Then hypothesis holds for any $mathcal I_1$ and $mathcal I_2$ ; $mathcal I_1$ and $mathcal I_2$ need not be independent.






            share|cite|improve this answer












            What if $mathcal I_3$ consists of just the empty set. Then hypothesis holds for any $mathcal I_1$ and $mathcal I_2$ ; $mathcal I_1$ and $mathcal I_2$ need not be independent.







            share|cite|improve this answer












            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer










            answered Aug 30 at 23:28









            Kavi Rama Murthy

            25.3k31335




            25.3k31335











            • Thanks Kavi - you made me realize something. I added it to the end of my question. I also posed another question. Would you be able to answer the new question? Thank you.
              – Satana
              Aug 31 at 0:37
















            • Thanks Kavi - you made me realize something. I added it to the end of my question. I also posed another question. Would you be able to answer the new question? Thank you.
              – Satana
              Aug 31 at 0:37















            Thanks Kavi - you made me realize something. I added it to the end of my question. I also posed another question. Would you be able to answer the new question? Thank you.
            – Satana
            Aug 31 at 0:37




            Thanks Kavi - you made me realize something. I added it to the end of my question. I also posed another question. Would you be able to answer the new question? Thank you.
            – Satana
            Aug 31 at 0:37

















             

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