Prove that a function is not differentiable with $epsilon - delta$

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We have this function




$$f(x) =
begincases
x^2, & textif $x$ $in mathbbQ$ \[2ex]
0, & textif $x$ $inmathbbI$
endcases$$




We have to determine where the function is differentiable and calculate the derivative. Then we need to determine where is not differentiable and prove this with $epsilon - delta$



Attempt:



We define:
$$text$h(x)=0$ and $g(x)=x²$, then $h(0)=0=g(0)=f(0)$$$
Now we have:
$$text$h(x)$ ≤ $f(x)$ ≤ $g(x)$, for all x$inmathbbR$$$
$$textthat is equal to: $h(x)-h(0)$ ≤$ f(x) - f(0) $≤$ g(x) - g(0)$$$
$$textAnd without losing generality assuming that $x>0$:$$
$$text$frach(x)-h(0)x$ ≤ $fracf(x)-f(0)x$ ≤ $fracg(x)-g(0)x$$$
$$textFinally: $lim_xto 0 frach(x)-h(0)x$ ≤ $lim_xto 0 fracf(x)-f(0)x$ ≤ $lim_xto 0 fracg(x)-g(0)x$$$
$$textBy the squeeze theorem we have that:$$
$$lim_xto 0 fracf(x)-f(0)x=0$$
$$textSo $f$ is differentiable at $c=0$ and $f'(0)=0$$$



The problem comes when we have to show that is not differentiable at any other point. I managed to do it with limits but I don't know how to put in into $epsilon - delta$



$$textLet $xinmathbbQ$ and $x≠0$. Then $f(x)=x²$. Now we know that exist a sequence $(y_n)_ninmathbbN$ of irrational numbers such that:$$
$$lim_nto inftyy_n = x$$
$$textAlso we have that $f(y_n)=0$ for all $n$, because $y_n$ is irrational, but:$$
$$lim_nto inftyf(y_n) = f(x) = x²$$
$$textSo we can see that:$$
$$lim_nto inftyf(y_n) ≠ f(y_n)$$
$$textThis implies that $f$ is not continuous at $mathbbI$, therefore $f$ is not differentiable at $mathbbI$$$
$$textThe same thing works to prove that $f$ is not continuous at $mathbbQ$ so $f$ is not differentiable at any point, except $x=0$.$$



As I said the problem comes when I have to write that second thing with $text$epsilon - delta$ $, cause I don't really know how to start. Someone has any ideas? Thanks to everyone.










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    up vote
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    down vote

    favorite
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    We have this function




    $$f(x) =
    begincases
    x^2, & textif $x$ $in mathbbQ$ \[2ex]
    0, & textif $x$ $inmathbbI$
    endcases$$




    We have to determine where the function is differentiable and calculate the derivative. Then we need to determine where is not differentiable and prove this with $epsilon - delta$



    Attempt:



    We define:
    $$text$h(x)=0$ and $g(x)=x²$, then $h(0)=0=g(0)=f(0)$$$
    Now we have:
    $$text$h(x)$ ≤ $f(x)$ ≤ $g(x)$, for all x$inmathbbR$$$
    $$textthat is equal to: $h(x)-h(0)$ ≤$ f(x) - f(0) $≤$ g(x) - g(0)$$$
    $$textAnd without losing generality assuming that $x>0$:$$
    $$text$frach(x)-h(0)x$ ≤ $fracf(x)-f(0)x$ ≤ $fracg(x)-g(0)x$$$
    $$textFinally: $lim_xto 0 frach(x)-h(0)x$ ≤ $lim_xto 0 fracf(x)-f(0)x$ ≤ $lim_xto 0 fracg(x)-g(0)x$$$
    $$textBy the squeeze theorem we have that:$$
    $$lim_xto 0 fracf(x)-f(0)x=0$$
    $$textSo $f$ is differentiable at $c=0$ and $f'(0)=0$$$



    The problem comes when we have to show that is not differentiable at any other point. I managed to do it with limits but I don't know how to put in into $epsilon - delta$



    $$textLet $xinmathbbQ$ and $x≠0$. Then $f(x)=x²$. Now we know that exist a sequence $(y_n)_ninmathbbN$ of irrational numbers such that:$$
    $$lim_nto inftyy_n = x$$
    $$textAlso we have that $f(y_n)=0$ for all $n$, because $y_n$ is irrational, but:$$
    $$lim_nto inftyf(y_n) = f(x) = x²$$
    $$textSo we can see that:$$
    $$lim_nto inftyf(y_n) ≠ f(y_n)$$
    $$textThis implies that $f$ is not continuous at $mathbbI$, therefore $f$ is not differentiable at $mathbbI$$$
    $$textThe same thing works to prove that $f$ is not continuous at $mathbbQ$ so $f$ is not differentiable at any point, except $x=0$.$$



    As I said the problem comes when I have to write that second thing with $text$epsilon - delta$ $, cause I don't really know how to start. Someone has any ideas? Thanks to everyone.










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      favorite
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      We have this function




      $$f(x) =
      begincases
      x^2, & textif $x$ $in mathbbQ$ \[2ex]
      0, & textif $x$ $inmathbbI$
      endcases$$




      We have to determine where the function is differentiable and calculate the derivative. Then we need to determine where is not differentiable and prove this with $epsilon - delta$



      Attempt:



      We define:
      $$text$h(x)=0$ and $g(x)=x²$, then $h(0)=0=g(0)=f(0)$$$
      Now we have:
      $$text$h(x)$ ≤ $f(x)$ ≤ $g(x)$, for all x$inmathbbR$$$
      $$textthat is equal to: $h(x)-h(0)$ ≤$ f(x) - f(0) $≤$ g(x) - g(0)$$$
      $$textAnd without losing generality assuming that $x>0$:$$
      $$text$frach(x)-h(0)x$ ≤ $fracf(x)-f(0)x$ ≤ $fracg(x)-g(0)x$$$
      $$textFinally: $lim_xto 0 frach(x)-h(0)x$ ≤ $lim_xto 0 fracf(x)-f(0)x$ ≤ $lim_xto 0 fracg(x)-g(0)x$$$
      $$textBy the squeeze theorem we have that:$$
      $$lim_xto 0 fracf(x)-f(0)x=0$$
      $$textSo $f$ is differentiable at $c=0$ and $f'(0)=0$$$



      The problem comes when we have to show that is not differentiable at any other point. I managed to do it with limits but I don't know how to put in into $epsilon - delta$



      $$textLet $xinmathbbQ$ and $x≠0$. Then $f(x)=x²$. Now we know that exist a sequence $(y_n)_ninmathbbN$ of irrational numbers such that:$$
      $$lim_nto inftyy_n = x$$
      $$textAlso we have that $f(y_n)=0$ for all $n$, because $y_n$ is irrational, but:$$
      $$lim_nto inftyf(y_n) = f(x) = x²$$
      $$textSo we can see that:$$
      $$lim_nto inftyf(y_n) ≠ f(y_n)$$
      $$textThis implies that $f$ is not continuous at $mathbbI$, therefore $f$ is not differentiable at $mathbbI$$$
      $$textThe same thing works to prove that $f$ is not continuous at $mathbbQ$ so $f$ is not differentiable at any point, except $x=0$.$$



      As I said the problem comes when I have to write that second thing with $text$epsilon - delta$ $, cause I don't really know how to start. Someone has any ideas? Thanks to everyone.










      share|cite|improve this question















      We have this function




      $$f(x) =
      begincases
      x^2, & textif $x$ $in mathbbQ$ \[2ex]
      0, & textif $x$ $inmathbbI$
      endcases$$




      We have to determine where the function is differentiable and calculate the derivative. Then we need to determine where is not differentiable and prove this with $epsilon - delta$



      Attempt:



      We define:
      $$text$h(x)=0$ and $g(x)=x²$, then $h(0)=0=g(0)=f(0)$$$
      Now we have:
      $$text$h(x)$ ≤ $f(x)$ ≤ $g(x)$, for all x$inmathbbR$$$
      $$textthat is equal to: $h(x)-h(0)$ ≤$ f(x) - f(0) $≤$ g(x) - g(0)$$$
      $$textAnd without losing generality assuming that $x>0$:$$
      $$text$frach(x)-h(0)x$ ≤ $fracf(x)-f(0)x$ ≤ $fracg(x)-g(0)x$$$
      $$textFinally: $lim_xto 0 frach(x)-h(0)x$ ≤ $lim_xto 0 fracf(x)-f(0)x$ ≤ $lim_xto 0 fracg(x)-g(0)x$$$
      $$textBy the squeeze theorem we have that:$$
      $$lim_xto 0 fracf(x)-f(0)x=0$$
      $$textSo $f$ is differentiable at $c=0$ and $f'(0)=0$$$



      The problem comes when we have to show that is not differentiable at any other point. I managed to do it with limits but I don't know how to put in into $epsilon - delta$



      $$textLet $xinmathbbQ$ and $x≠0$. Then $f(x)=x²$. Now we know that exist a sequence $(y_n)_ninmathbbN$ of irrational numbers such that:$$
      $$lim_nto inftyy_n = x$$
      $$textAlso we have that $f(y_n)=0$ for all $n$, because $y_n$ is irrational, but:$$
      $$lim_nto inftyf(y_n) = f(x) = x²$$
      $$textSo we can see that:$$
      $$lim_nto inftyf(y_n) ≠ f(y_n)$$
      $$textThis implies that $f$ is not continuous at $mathbbI$, therefore $f$ is not differentiable at $mathbbI$$$
      $$textThe same thing works to prove that $f$ is not continuous at $mathbbQ$ so $f$ is not differentiable at any point, except $x=0$.$$



      As I said the problem comes when I have to write that second thing with $text$epsilon - delta$ $, cause I don't really know how to start. Someone has any ideas? Thanks to everyone.







      calculus limits derivatives continuity epsilon-delta






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      edited Aug 31 at 2:47

























      asked Aug 31 at 2:11









      Lui

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          2 Answers
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          Allow $(x_n)$ be a sequence of rational numbers such that $x_n to sqrt2$.



          Fix $epsilon > 0$. First notice that $|x_n - sqrt2| < delta implies |x_n + sqrt2| = |x_n - sqrt2 + 2sqrt2| leq |x_n - sqrt2| + 2sqrt2 < delta + 2sqrt2$.



          So $|x_n - sqrt2||x_n + sqrt2| < delta(delta + 2sqrt2)$.



          Allowing $delta < fracepsilon1 + 2sqrt2$ for small enough $epsilon$ (i.e. if $epsilon < 1 + 2sqrt2$) produces



          $|f(x_n) - 2| = |x_n-sqrt2||x_n + sqrt2| < delta(delta + 2sqrt2) < delta(1+2sqrt2) < fracepsilon1+2sqrt2(1+2sqrt2) = epsilon$



          Thus, $lim_x_n to sqrt2 f(x_n) = 2$, however $f(sqrt2) = 0$.



          It is not continuous, thus not differentiable.






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            If a function is differentiable, it is continuous. Since $f$ is discontinuous for $x neq 0$ it cannot be differentiable for $x neq 0$.



            If $x neq 0$ and $x$ is irrational you can find rationals $q_n to x$ and then $f(q_n) = q_n^2$ but $f(x) = 0$. Then $f(q_n)-f(x) over q_n - x = q_n^2 over q_n-x$.



            If $x neq 0$ and $x$ is rational you can find irrationals $alpha_n to x$ and then $f(alpha_n) = 0$ but $f(x) = x^2 neq 0$. Then $f(alpha_n)-f(x) over alpha_n - x = x^2 over alpha_n-x$.



            In particular, the ratio is not bounded as $n to infty$, so it is straightforward to use an $epsilon$-$delta$
            argument to show that it is not differentiable at $x$ (if it was differentiable,
            the ratio would be bounded).






            share|cite|improve this answer




















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              2 Answers
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              2 Answers
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              active

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              active

              oldest

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              up vote
              2
              down vote













              Allow $(x_n)$ be a sequence of rational numbers such that $x_n to sqrt2$.



              Fix $epsilon > 0$. First notice that $|x_n - sqrt2| < delta implies |x_n + sqrt2| = |x_n - sqrt2 + 2sqrt2| leq |x_n - sqrt2| + 2sqrt2 < delta + 2sqrt2$.



              So $|x_n - sqrt2||x_n + sqrt2| < delta(delta + 2sqrt2)$.



              Allowing $delta < fracepsilon1 + 2sqrt2$ for small enough $epsilon$ (i.e. if $epsilon < 1 + 2sqrt2$) produces



              $|f(x_n) - 2| = |x_n-sqrt2||x_n + sqrt2| < delta(delta + 2sqrt2) < delta(1+2sqrt2) < fracepsilon1+2sqrt2(1+2sqrt2) = epsilon$



              Thus, $lim_x_n to sqrt2 f(x_n) = 2$, however $f(sqrt2) = 0$.



              It is not continuous, thus not differentiable.






              share|cite|improve this answer
























                up vote
                2
                down vote













                Allow $(x_n)$ be a sequence of rational numbers such that $x_n to sqrt2$.



                Fix $epsilon > 0$. First notice that $|x_n - sqrt2| < delta implies |x_n + sqrt2| = |x_n - sqrt2 + 2sqrt2| leq |x_n - sqrt2| + 2sqrt2 < delta + 2sqrt2$.



                So $|x_n - sqrt2||x_n + sqrt2| < delta(delta + 2sqrt2)$.



                Allowing $delta < fracepsilon1 + 2sqrt2$ for small enough $epsilon$ (i.e. if $epsilon < 1 + 2sqrt2$) produces



                $|f(x_n) - 2| = |x_n-sqrt2||x_n + sqrt2| < delta(delta + 2sqrt2) < delta(1+2sqrt2) < fracepsilon1+2sqrt2(1+2sqrt2) = epsilon$



                Thus, $lim_x_n to sqrt2 f(x_n) = 2$, however $f(sqrt2) = 0$.



                It is not continuous, thus not differentiable.






                share|cite|improve this answer






















                  up vote
                  2
                  down vote










                  up vote
                  2
                  down vote









                  Allow $(x_n)$ be a sequence of rational numbers such that $x_n to sqrt2$.



                  Fix $epsilon > 0$. First notice that $|x_n - sqrt2| < delta implies |x_n + sqrt2| = |x_n - sqrt2 + 2sqrt2| leq |x_n - sqrt2| + 2sqrt2 < delta + 2sqrt2$.



                  So $|x_n - sqrt2||x_n + sqrt2| < delta(delta + 2sqrt2)$.



                  Allowing $delta < fracepsilon1 + 2sqrt2$ for small enough $epsilon$ (i.e. if $epsilon < 1 + 2sqrt2$) produces



                  $|f(x_n) - 2| = |x_n-sqrt2||x_n + sqrt2| < delta(delta + 2sqrt2) < delta(1+2sqrt2) < fracepsilon1+2sqrt2(1+2sqrt2) = epsilon$



                  Thus, $lim_x_n to sqrt2 f(x_n) = 2$, however $f(sqrt2) = 0$.



                  It is not continuous, thus not differentiable.






                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  Allow $(x_n)$ be a sequence of rational numbers such that $x_n to sqrt2$.



                  Fix $epsilon > 0$. First notice that $|x_n - sqrt2| < delta implies |x_n + sqrt2| = |x_n - sqrt2 + 2sqrt2| leq |x_n - sqrt2| + 2sqrt2 < delta + 2sqrt2$.



                  So $|x_n - sqrt2||x_n + sqrt2| < delta(delta + 2sqrt2)$.



                  Allowing $delta < fracepsilon1 + 2sqrt2$ for small enough $epsilon$ (i.e. if $epsilon < 1 + 2sqrt2$) produces



                  $|f(x_n) - 2| = |x_n-sqrt2||x_n + sqrt2| < delta(delta + 2sqrt2) < delta(1+2sqrt2) < fracepsilon1+2sqrt2(1+2sqrt2) = epsilon$



                  Thus, $lim_x_n to sqrt2 f(x_n) = 2$, however $f(sqrt2) = 0$.



                  It is not continuous, thus not differentiable.







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                  answered Aug 31 at 3:20









                  Good Morning Captain

                  494417




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                      up vote
                      1
                      down vote













                      If a function is differentiable, it is continuous. Since $f$ is discontinuous for $x neq 0$ it cannot be differentiable for $x neq 0$.



                      If $x neq 0$ and $x$ is irrational you can find rationals $q_n to x$ and then $f(q_n) = q_n^2$ but $f(x) = 0$. Then $f(q_n)-f(x) over q_n - x = q_n^2 over q_n-x$.



                      If $x neq 0$ and $x$ is rational you can find irrationals $alpha_n to x$ and then $f(alpha_n) = 0$ but $f(x) = x^2 neq 0$. Then $f(alpha_n)-f(x) over alpha_n - x = x^2 over alpha_n-x$.



                      In particular, the ratio is not bounded as $n to infty$, so it is straightforward to use an $epsilon$-$delta$
                      argument to show that it is not differentiable at $x$ (if it was differentiable,
                      the ratio would be bounded).






                      share|cite|improve this answer
























                        up vote
                        1
                        down vote













                        If a function is differentiable, it is continuous. Since $f$ is discontinuous for $x neq 0$ it cannot be differentiable for $x neq 0$.



                        If $x neq 0$ and $x$ is irrational you can find rationals $q_n to x$ and then $f(q_n) = q_n^2$ but $f(x) = 0$. Then $f(q_n)-f(x) over q_n - x = q_n^2 over q_n-x$.



                        If $x neq 0$ and $x$ is rational you can find irrationals $alpha_n to x$ and then $f(alpha_n) = 0$ but $f(x) = x^2 neq 0$. Then $f(alpha_n)-f(x) over alpha_n - x = x^2 over alpha_n-x$.



                        In particular, the ratio is not bounded as $n to infty$, so it is straightforward to use an $epsilon$-$delta$
                        argument to show that it is not differentiable at $x$ (if it was differentiable,
                        the ratio would be bounded).






                        share|cite|improve this answer






















                          up vote
                          1
                          down vote










                          up vote
                          1
                          down vote









                          If a function is differentiable, it is continuous. Since $f$ is discontinuous for $x neq 0$ it cannot be differentiable for $x neq 0$.



                          If $x neq 0$ and $x$ is irrational you can find rationals $q_n to x$ and then $f(q_n) = q_n^2$ but $f(x) = 0$. Then $f(q_n)-f(x) over q_n - x = q_n^2 over q_n-x$.



                          If $x neq 0$ and $x$ is rational you can find irrationals $alpha_n to x$ and then $f(alpha_n) = 0$ but $f(x) = x^2 neq 0$. Then $f(alpha_n)-f(x) over alpha_n - x = x^2 over alpha_n-x$.



                          In particular, the ratio is not bounded as $n to infty$, so it is straightforward to use an $epsilon$-$delta$
                          argument to show that it is not differentiable at $x$ (if it was differentiable,
                          the ratio would be bounded).






                          share|cite|improve this answer












                          If a function is differentiable, it is continuous. Since $f$ is discontinuous for $x neq 0$ it cannot be differentiable for $x neq 0$.



                          If $x neq 0$ and $x$ is irrational you can find rationals $q_n to x$ and then $f(q_n) = q_n^2$ but $f(x) = 0$. Then $f(q_n)-f(x) over q_n - x = q_n^2 over q_n-x$.



                          If $x neq 0$ and $x$ is rational you can find irrationals $alpha_n to x$ and then $f(alpha_n) = 0$ but $f(x) = x^2 neq 0$. Then $f(alpha_n)-f(x) over alpha_n - x = x^2 over alpha_n-x$.



                          In particular, the ratio is not bounded as $n to infty$, so it is straightforward to use an $epsilon$-$delta$
                          argument to show that it is not differentiable at $x$ (if it was differentiable,
                          the ratio would be bounded).







                          share|cite|improve this answer












                          share|cite|improve this answer



                          share|cite|improve this answer










                          answered Aug 31 at 3:32









                          copper.hat

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