Clarification on countability of $mathbbN^2$ and $2^mathbbN$
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I would like some help with developping a better intuitive understanding of why $mathbbN^2$ is countable while $2^mathbbN$ is not. As far as I understand we can write a 1:1 enumerating function for both.
I am able to follow Cantor's theorem proof. But I don't know how to directly compare the power set result to that of $mathbbN^2$. The proof is shown in multiple other questions but I cannot find any answer or textbook that compares $mathbbN^2$ with $2^mathbbN$ the way I would like. I understand that for infinite countable $mathbbN$, the Cantor pair function becomes surjective while a 1:1 enumeration of the power set does not. It may be injective but not surjective. Why does it not become surjective the same way as the Cantor pair as we move from a finite subset of $mathbbN$ to the countable infinite superset?
For $mathbbN^2$, I can use the Cantor pair function (a bijection) to enumerate all possible pairs. For a finite set the function is not surjective but for an infinite set it is. Now, for $2^mathbbA$, we could build a 1:1 function, also not surjective for finite sets, as follows (consider $A=c,b,a$):
$$
beginarrayc c
0 mapsto & 000\
hline
1 mapsto a & 001\
2 mapsto b & 010\
3 mapsto b,a & 011 \
hline
4 mapsto c & 100\
5 mapsto c,a & 101 \
6 mapsto c,b & 110 \
7 mapsto c,b,a & 111
endarray
$$
We simply convert the enumerating integer to binary and each zero or one indicates presence of the element in that position (of $A$).
In the above, we would quickly need huge numbers ($2^n$) but so what?The Cantor pair function is also not surjective (we need $n^2$) for a finite set.
I am probably overlooking something.. please point it out to me
EDIT:
Thanks to the answer and comments below, there is actually a simple example I see now: with Cantor's function we prove surjectivity going from $mathbbN^2 rightarrow mathbbN$ by showing we can find some pair $in mathbbN^2$ to pruduce any $n in mathbbN$. But in the above power set scheme, all we have to do is show one example where it does not work. So consider for example the infinite set of all even numbers in $2^mathbbN$. It is a subset of $mathbbN$ so it is in the power set. But we cannot use the above enumeration when the set has infinite length.
real-analysis elementary-set-theory
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
I would like some help with developping a better intuitive understanding of why $mathbbN^2$ is countable while $2^mathbbN$ is not. As far as I understand we can write a 1:1 enumerating function for both.
I am able to follow Cantor's theorem proof. But I don't know how to directly compare the power set result to that of $mathbbN^2$. The proof is shown in multiple other questions but I cannot find any answer or textbook that compares $mathbbN^2$ with $2^mathbbN$ the way I would like. I understand that for infinite countable $mathbbN$, the Cantor pair function becomes surjective while a 1:1 enumeration of the power set does not. It may be injective but not surjective. Why does it not become surjective the same way as the Cantor pair as we move from a finite subset of $mathbbN$ to the countable infinite superset?
For $mathbbN^2$, I can use the Cantor pair function (a bijection) to enumerate all possible pairs. For a finite set the function is not surjective but for an infinite set it is. Now, for $2^mathbbA$, we could build a 1:1 function, also not surjective for finite sets, as follows (consider $A=c,b,a$):
$$
beginarrayc c
0 mapsto & 000\
hline
1 mapsto a & 001\
2 mapsto b & 010\
3 mapsto b,a & 011 \
hline
4 mapsto c & 100\
5 mapsto c,a & 101 \
6 mapsto c,b & 110 \
7 mapsto c,b,a & 111
endarray
$$
We simply convert the enumerating integer to binary and each zero or one indicates presence of the element in that position (of $A$).
In the above, we would quickly need huge numbers ($2^n$) but so what?The Cantor pair function is also not surjective (we need $n^2$) for a finite set.
I am probably overlooking something.. please point it out to me
EDIT:
Thanks to the answer and comments below, there is actually a simple example I see now: with Cantor's function we prove surjectivity going from $mathbbN^2 rightarrow mathbbN$ by showing we can find some pair $in mathbbN^2$ to pruduce any $n in mathbbN$. But in the above power set scheme, all we have to do is show one example where it does not work. So consider for example the infinite set of all even numbers in $2^mathbbN$. It is a subset of $mathbbN$ so it is in the power set. But we cannot use the above enumeration when the set has infinite length.
real-analysis elementary-set-theory
5
This process will only ever get you finite sets - but most subsets of $mathbbN$ aren't finite! (Also, this question has definitely been asked here before ...)
â Noah Schweber
Aug 31 at 1:59
Is there a proof I can use for both (cantor pair and the above) that makes clear why the pair function works in the infinite case while the above doesn't? I don't know how to apply Cantor's theorem to $mathbbN^2$. I have not seen the two compared before
â APR123
Aug 31 at 2:19
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
I would like some help with developping a better intuitive understanding of why $mathbbN^2$ is countable while $2^mathbbN$ is not. As far as I understand we can write a 1:1 enumerating function for both.
I am able to follow Cantor's theorem proof. But I don't know how to directly compare the power set result to that of $mathbbN^2$. The proof is shown in multiple other questions but I cannot find any answer or textbook that compares $mathbbN^2$ with $2^mathbbN$ the way I would like. I understand that for infinite countable $mathbbN$, the Cantor pair function becomes surjective while a 1:1 enumeration of the power set does not. It may be injective but not surjective. Why does it not become surjective the same way as the Cantor pair as we move from a finite subset of $mathbbN$ to the countable infinite superset?
For $mathbbN^2$, I can use the Cantor pair function (a bijection) to enumerate all possible pairs. For a finite set the function is not surjective but for an infinite set it is. Now, for $2^mathbbA$, we could build a 1:1 function, also not surjective for finite sets, as follows (consider $A=c,b,a$):
$$
beginarrayc c
0 mapsto & 000\
hline
1 mapsto a & 001\
2 mapsto b & 010\
3 mapsto b,a & 011 \
hline
4 mapsto c & 100\
5 mapsto c,a & 101 \
6 mapsto c,b & 110 \
7 mapsto c,b,a & 111
endarray
$$
We simply convert the enumerating integer to binary and each zero or one indicates presence of the element in that position (of $A$).
In the above, we would quickly need huge numbers ($2^n$) but so what?The Cantor pair function is also not surjective (we need $n^2$) for a finite set.
I am probably overlooking something.. please point it out to me
EDIT:
Thanks to the answer and comments below, there is actually a simple example I see now: with Cantor's function we prove surjectivity going from $mathbbN^2 rightarrow mathbbN$ by showing we can find some pair $in mathbbN^2$ to pruduce any $n in mathbbN$. But in the above power set scheme, all we have to do is show one example where it does not work. So consider for example the infinite set of all even numbers in $2^mathbbN$. It is a subset of $mathbbN$ so it is in the power set. But we cannot use the above enumeration when the set has infinite length.
real-analysis elementary-set-theory
I would like some help with developping a better intuitive understanding of why $mathbbN^2$ is countable while $2^mathbbN$ is not. As far as I understand we can write a 1:1 enumerating function for both.
I am able to follow Cantor's theorem proof. But I don't know how to directly compare the power set result to that of $mathbbN^2$. The proof is shown in multiple other questions but I cannot find any answer or textbook that compares $mathbbN^2$ with $2^mathbbN$ the way I would like. I understand that for infinite countable $mathbbN$, the Cantor pair function becomes surjective while a 1:1 enumeration of the power set does not. It may be injective but not surjective. Why does it not become surjective the same way as the Cantor pair as we move from a finite subset of $mathbbN$ to the countable infinite superset?
For $mathbbN^2$, I can use the Cantor pair function (a bijection) to enumerate all possible pairs. For a finite set the function is not surjective but for an infinite set it is. Now, for $2^mathbbA$, we could build a 1:1 function, also not surjective for finite sets, as follows (consider $A=c,b,a$):
$$
beginarrayc c
0 mapsto & 000\
hline
1 mapsto a & 001\
2 mapsto b & 010\
3 mapsto b,a & 011 \
hline
4 mapsto c & 100\
5 mapsto c,a & 101 \
6 mapsto c,b & 110 \
7 mapsto c,b,a & 111
endarray
$$
We simply convert the enumerating integer to binary and each zero or one indicates presence of the element in that position (of $A$).
In the above, we would quickly need huge numbers ($2^n$) but so what?The Cantor pair function is also not surjective (we need $n^2$) for a finite set.
I am probably overlooking something.. please point it out to me
EDIT:
Thanks to the answer and comments below, there is actually a simple example I see now: with Cantor's function we prove surjectivity going from $mathbbN^2 rightarrow mathbbN$ by showing we can find some pair $in mathbbN^2$ to pruduce any $n in mathbbN$. But in the above power set scheme, all we have to do is show one example where it does not work. So consider for example the infinite set of all even numbers in $2^mathbbN$. It is a subset of $mathbbN$ so it is in the power set. But we cannot use the above enumeration when the set has infinite length.
real-analysis elementary-set-theory
real-analysis elementary-set-theory
edited Aug 31 at 19:11
asked Aug 31 at 1:56
APR123
426
426
5
This process will only ever get you finite sets - but most subsets of $mathbbN$ aren't finite! (Also, this question has definitely been asked here before ...)
â Noah Schweber
Aug 31 at 1:59
Is there a proof I can use for both (cantor pair and the above) that makes clear why the pair function works in the infinite case while the above doesn't? I don't know how to apply Cantor's theorem to $mathbbN^2$. I have not seen the two compared before
â APR123
Aug 31 at 2:19
add a comment |Â
5
This process will only ever get you finite sets - but most subsets of $mathbbN$ aren't finite! (Also, this question has definitely been asked here before ...)
â Noah Schweber
Aug 31 at 1:59
Is there a proof I can use for both (cantor pair and the above) that makes clear why the pair function works in the infinite case while the above doesn't? I don't know how to apply Cantor's theorem to $mathbbN^2$. I have not seen the two compared before
â APR123
Aug 31 at 2:19
5
5
This process will only ever get you finite sets - but most subsets of $mathbbN$ aren't finite! (Also, this question has definitely been asked here before ...)
â Noah Schweber
Aug 31 at 1:59
This process will only ever get you finite sets - but most subsets of $mathbbN$ aren't finite! (Also, this question has definitely been asked here before ...)
â Noah Schweber
Aug 31 at 1:59
Is there a proof I can use for both (cantor pair and the above) that makes clear why the pair function works in the infinite case while the above doesn't? I don't know how to apply Cantor's theorem to $mathbbN^2$. I have not seen the two compared before
â APR123
Aug 31 at 2:19
Is there a proof I can use for both (cantor pair and the above) that makes clear why the pair function works in the infinite case while the above doesn't? I don't know how to apply Cantor's theorem to $mathbbN^2$. I have not seen the two compared before
â APR123
Aug 31 at 2:19
add a comment |Â
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
up vote
2
down vote
accepted
My intuition is quite satisfied by the fact that one can put $mathbb N^2$ in a list, by putting the elements in an array, and winding one's way back and forth in a spiral pattern ($2$ variations), starting from the upper left hand corner.
Whereas, with $2^mathbb N$, we have a pretty easy identification of subsets of $mathbb N$ and binary representations of the reals.
Couple this Cantor's diagonal argument, and we are done...
I was trying to go down that road too. I can see the equivalence of $mathbb2^N$ with $mathbbR$ and then see with the diagonal proof it is uncountable, so I can get to part of the answer that way but how do I show the equivalent does work for the Cantor pair function? Is there a closer connection?
â APR123
Aug 31 at 3:12
1
Finite (terminating) binary numbers omit irrationals. Not quite sure what to say... I still like the enumeration using the array...
â Chris Custer
Aug 31 at 3:20
add a comment |Â
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
2
down vote
accepted
My intuition is quite satisfied by the fact that one can put $mathbb N^2$ in a list, by putting the elements in an array, and winding one's way back and forth in a spiral pattern ($2$ variations), starting from the upper left hand corner.
Whereas, with $2^mathbb N$, we have a pretty easy identification of subsets of $mathbb N$ and binary representations of the reals.
Couple this Cantor's diagonal argument, and we are done...
I was trying to go down that road too. I can see the equivalence of $mathbb2^N$ with $mathbbR$ and then see with the diagonal proof it is uncountable, so I can get to part of the answer that way but how do I show the equivalent does work for the Cantor pair function? Is there a closer connection?
â APR123
Aug 31 at 3:12
1
Finite (terminating) binary numbers omit irrationals. Not quite sure what to say... I still like the enumeration using the array...
â Chris Custer
Aug 31 at 3:20
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
accepted
My intuition is quite satisfied by the fact that one can put $mathbb N^2$ in a list, by putting the elements in an array, and winding one's way back and forth in a spiral pattern ($2$ variations), starting from the upper left hand corner.
Whereas, with $2^mathbb N$, we have a pretty easy identification of subsets of $mathbb N$ and binary representations of the reals.
Couple this Cantor's diagonal argument, and we are done...
I was trying to go down that road too. I can see the equivalence of $mathbb2^N$ with $mathbbR$ and then see with the diagonal proof it is uncountable, so I can get to part of the answer that way but how do I show the equivalent does work for the Cantor pair function? Is there a closer connection?
â APR123
Aug 31 at 3:12
1
Finite (terminating) binary numbers omit irrationals. Not quite sure what to say... I still like the enumeration using the array...
â Chris Custer
Aug 31 at 3:20
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
accepted
up vote
2
down vote
accepted
My intuition is quite satisfied by the fact that one can put $mathbb N^2$ in a list, by putting the elements in an array, and winding one's way back and forth in a spiral pattern ($2$ variations), starting from the upper left hand corner.
Whereas, with $2^mathbb N$, we have a pretty easy identification of subsets of $mathbb N$ and binary representations of the reals.
Couple this Cantor's diagonal argument, and we are done...
My intuition is quite satisfied by the fact that one can put $mathbb N^2$ in a list, by putting the elements in an array, and winding one's way back and forth in a spiral pattern ($2$ variations), starting from the upper left hand corner.
Whereas, with $2^mathbb N$, we have a pretty easy identification of subsets of $mathbb N$ and binary representations of the reals.
Couple this Cantor's diagonal argument, and we are done...
answered Aug 31 at 2:58
Chris Custer
6,3472622
6,3472622
I was trying to go down that road too. I can see the equivalence of $mathbb2^N$ with $mathbbR$ and then see with the diagonal proof it is uncountable, so I can get to part of the answer that way but how do I show the equivalent does work for the Cantor pair function? Is there a closer connection?
â APR123
Aug 31 at 3:12
1
Finite (terminating) binary numbers omit irrationals. Not quite sure what to say... I still like the enumeration using the array...
â Chris Custer
Aug 31 at 3:20
add a comment |Â
I was trying to go down that road too. I can see the equivalence of $mathbb2^N$ with $mathbbR$ and then see with the diagonal proof it is uncountable, so I can get to part of the answer that way but how do I show the equivalent does work for the Cantor pair function? Is there a closer connection?
â APR123
Aug 31 at 3:12
1
Finite (terminating) binary numbers omit irrationals. Not quite sure what to say... I still like the enumeration using the array...
â Chris Custer
Aug 31 at 3:20
I was trying to go down that road too. I can see the equivalence of $mathbb2^N$ with $mathbbR$ and then see with the diagonal proof it is uncountable, so I can get to part of the answer that way but how do I show the equivalent does work for the Cantor pair function? Is there a closer connection?
â APR123
Aug 31 at 3:12
I was trying to go down that road too. I can see the equivalence of $mathbb2^N$ with $mathbbR$ and then see with the diagonal proof it is uncountable, so I can get to part of the answer that way but how do I show the equivalent does work for the Cantor pair function? Is there a closer connection?
â APR123
Aug 31 at 3:12
1
1
Finite (terminating) binary numbers omit irrationals. Not quite sure what to say... I still like the enumeration using the array...
â Chris Custer
Aug 31 at 3:20
Finite (terminating) binary numbers omit irrationals. Not quite sure what to say... I still like the enumeration using the array...
â Chris Custer
Aug 31 at 3:20
add a comment |Â
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5
This process will only ever get you finite sets - but most subsets of $mathbbN$ aren't finite! (Also, this question has definitely been asked here before ...)
â Noah Schweber
Aug 31 at 1:59
Is there a proof I can use for both (cantor pair and the above) that makes clear why the pair function works in the infinite case while the above doesn't? I don't know how to apply Cantor's theorem to $mathbbN^2$. I have not seen the two compared before
â APR123
Aug 31 at 2:19