How does Axiom of Dependent Choice imply this weaker variant?

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Here is the excerpt from the textbook A Course in Mathematical Analysis by Prof D. J. H. Garling.



enter image description here



So I have the Theorem 1:




Given a set $Aneqvarnothing$, a mapping $varphi:Ato P(A
)setminus varnothing$, and $barain A$. Then there exists a sequence

$$(a_n)_nin mathbbN$$

such that $a_0=bara$ and $a_n+1in varphi(a_n)$ for all $nin mathbbN$


Axiom of Choice:




Given a collection $A$ of nonempty sets, there exists a function

$$c: A to bigcup_A_i in AA_i$$

such that $c(A_i)in A_i$ for all $A_i in A$.


Axiom of Dependent Choice:




Given a nonempty set $A$ and a binary relation $mathcalR$ on $A$ such that for all $ain A$, there exists $bin A$ such that $amathcalRb$. There exists a sequence

$$(a_n)_nin mathbbN$$

such that $a_nmathcalRa_n+1$ for all $n in mathbbN$.


The author states that The axiom of dependent choice
states that this [Theorem 1] is always possible
. But I can only infer Theorem 1 from Axiom of Choice, not from Axiom of Dependent Choice. Below is how I did it.




Using Axiom of Choice for the collection $P(A)setminus varnothing$ of nonempty sets, then there exists a choice function $$varphi':P(A)setminus varnothing to A$$ such that $varphi'(X)in X$ for all $Xin P(A)setminus varnothing$.

Let $barvarphi=varphi'circ varphi:Ato Aimpliesbarvarphi(a)=varphi'(varphi(a))in varphi(bara)$ for all $ain A$



To sum up, we have $barvarphi:Ato A$ and $barain A$. Applying Recursion Theorem, we get a sequence $$(a_n)_nin mathbbN$$ such that $a_0=bara$ and $a_n+1=barvarphi(a_n)invarphi(a_n)$ for all $nin mathbbN$.

So this $(a_n)_nin mathbbN$ is the required sequence.


I would like you to check my above proof and check whether it is possible for Axiom of Dependent Choice to imply Theorem 1.



Many thanks for your help!










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  • The answer is a mixture of both: math.stackexchange.com/questions/963309/… and math.stackexchange.com/questions/250623/…
    – Asaf Karagila♦
    Feb 23 at 9:44










  • Hi @AsafKaragila, Can you check whether my above proof is correct?
    – Le Anh Dung
    Feb 24 at 9:02














up vote
2
down vote

favorite












Here is the excerpt from the textbook A Course in Mathematical Analysis by Prof D. J. H. Garling.



enter image description here



So I have the Theorem 1:




Given a set $Aneqvarnothing$, a mapping $varphi:Ato P(A
)setminus varnothing$, and $barain A$. Then there exists a sequence

$$(a_n)_nin mathbbN$$

such that $a_0=bara$ and $a_n+1in varphi(a_n)$ for all $nin mathbbN$


Axiom of Choice:




Given a collection $A$ of nonempty sets, there exists a function

$$c: A to bigcup_A_i in AA_i$$

such that $c(A_i)in A_i$ for all $A_i in A$.


Axiom of Dependent Choice:




Given a nonempty set $A$ and a binary relation $mathcalR$ on $A$ such that for all $ain A$, there exists $bin A$ such that $amathcalRb$. There exists a sequence

$$(a_n)_nin mathbbN$$

such that $a_nmathcalRa_n+1$ for all $n in mathbbN$.


The author states that The axiom of dependent choice
states that this [Theorem 1] is always possible
. But I can only infer Theorem 1 from Axiom of Choice, not from Axiom of Dependent Choice. Below is how I did it.




Using Axiom of Choice for the collection $P(A)setminus varnothing$ of nonempty sets, then there exists a choice function $$varphi':P(A)setminus varnothing to A$$ such that $varphi'(X)in X$ for all $Xin P(A)setminus varnothing$.

Let $barvarphi=varphi'circ varphi:Ato Aimpliesbarvarphi(a)=varphi'(varphi(a))in varphi(bara)$ for all $ain A$



To sum up, we have $barvarphi:Ato A$ and $barain A$. Applying Recursion Theorem, we get a sequence $$(a_n)_nin mathbbN$$ such that $a_0=bara$ and $a_n+1=barvarphi(a_n)invarphi(a_n)$ for all $nin mathbbN$.

So this $(a_n)_nin mathbbN$ is the required sequence.


I would like you to check my above proof and check whether it is possible for Axiom of Dependent Choice to imply Theorem 1.



Many thanks for your help!










share|cite|improve this question























  • The answer is a mixture of both: math.stackexchange.com/questions/963309/… and math.stackexchange.com/questions/250623/…
    – Asaf Karagila♦
    Feb 23 at 9:44










  • Hi @AsafKaragila, Can you check whether my above proof is correct?
    – Le Anh Dung
    Feb 24 at 9:02












up vote
2
down vote

favorite









up vote
2
down vote

favorite











Here is the excerpt from the textbook A Course in Mathematical Analysis by Prof D. J. H. Garling.



enter image description here



So I have the Theorem 1:




Given a set $Aneqvarnothing$, a mapping $varphi:Ato P(A
)setminus varnothing$, and $barain A$. Then there exists a sequence

$$(a_n)_nin mathbbN$$

such that $a_0=bara$ and $a_n+1in varphi(a_n)$ for all $nin mathbbN$


Axiom of Choice:




Given a collection $A$ of nonempty sets, there exists a function

$$c: A to bigcup_A_i in AA_i$$

such that $c(A_i)in A_i$ for all $A_i in A$.


Axiom of Dependent Choice:




Given a nonempty set $A$ and a binary relation $mathcalR$ on $A$ such that for all $ain A$, there exists $bin A$ such that $amathcalRb$. There exists a sequence

$$(a_n)_nin mathbbN$$

such that $a_nmathcalRa_n+1$ for all $n in mathbbN$.


The author states that The axiom of dependent choice
states that this [Theorem 1] is always possible
. But I can only infer Theorem 1 from Axiom of Choice, not from Axiom of Dependent Choice. Below is how I did it.




Using Axiom of Choice for the collection $P(A)setminus varnothing$ of nonempty sets, then there exists a choice function $$varphi':P(A)setminus varnothing to A$$ such that $varphi'(X)in X$ for all $Xin P(A)setminus varnothing$.

Let $barvarphi=varphi'circ varphi:Ato Aimpliesbarvarphi(a)=varphi'(varphi(a))in varphi(bara)$ for all $ain A$



To sum up, we have $barvarphi:Ato A$ and $barain A$. Applying Recursion Theorem, we get a sequence $$(a_n)_nin mathbbN$$ such that $a_0=bara$ and $a_n+1=barvarphi(a_n)invarphi(a_n)$ for all $nin mathbbN$.

So this $(a_n)_nin mathbbN$ is the required sequence.


I would like you to check my above proof and check whether it is possible for Axiom of Dependent Choice to imply Theorem 1.



Many thanks for your help!










share|cite|improve this question















Here is the excerpt from the textbook A Course in Mathematical Analysis by Prof D. J. H. Garling.



enter image description here



So I have the Theorem 1:




Given a set $Aneqvarnothing$, a mapping $varphi:Ato P(A
)setminus varnothing$, and $barain A$. Then there exists a sequence

$$(a_n)_nin mathbbN$$

such that $a_0=bara$ and $a_n+1in varphi(a_n)$ for all $nin mathbbN$


Axiom of Choice:




Given a collection $A$ of nonempty sets, there exists a function

$$c: A to bigcup_A_i in AA_i$$

such that $c(A_i)in A_i$ for all $A_i in A$.


Axiom of Dependent Choice:




Given a nonempty set $A$ and a binary relation $mathcalR$ on $A$ such that for all $ain A$, there exists $bin A$ such that $amathcalRb$. There exists a sequence

$$(a_n)_nin mathbbN$$

such that $a_nmathcalRa_n+1$ for all $n in mathbbN$.


The author states that The axiom of dependent choice
states that this [Theorem 1] is always possible
. But I can only infer Theorem 1 from Axiom of Choice, not from Axiom of Dependent Choice. Below is how I did it.




Using Axiom of Choice for the collection $P(A)setminus varnothing$ of nonempty sets, then there exists a choice function $$varphi':P(A)setminus varnothing to A$$ such that $varphi'(X)in X$ for all $Xin P(A)setminus varnothing$.

Let $barvarphi=varphi'circ varphi:Ato Aimpliesbarvarphi(a)=varphi'(varphi(a))in varphi(bara)$ for all $ain A$



To sum up, we have $barvarphi:Ato A$ and $barain A$. Applying Recursion Theorem, we get a sequence $$(a_n)_nin mathbbN$$ such that $a_0=bara$ and $a_n+1=barvarphi(a_n)invarphi(a_n)$ for all $nin mathbbN$.

So this $(a_n)_nin mathbbN$ is the required sequence.


I would like you to check my above proof and check whether it is possible for Axiom of Dependent Choice to imply Theorem 1.



Many thanks for your help!







elementary-set-theory axiom-of-choice






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edited Aug 31 at 0:45

























asked Feb 23 at 9:38









Le Anh Dung

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  • The answer is a mixture of both: math.stackexchange.com/questions/963309/… and math.stackexchange.com/questions/250623/…
    – Asaf Karagila♦
    Feb 23 at 9:44










  • Hi @AsafKaragila, Can you check whether my above proof is correct?
    – Le Anh Dung
    Feb 24 at 9:02
















  • The answer is a mixture of both: math.stackexchange.com/questions/963309/… and math.stackexchange.com/questions/250623/…
    – Asaf Karagila♦
    Feb 23 at 9:44










  • Hi @AsafKaragila, Can you check whether my above proof is correct?
    – Le Anh Dung
    Feb 24 at 9:02















The answer is a mixture of both: math.stackexchange.com/questions/963309/… and math.stackexchange.com/questions/250623/…
– Asaf Karagila♦
Feb 23 at 9:44




The answer is a mixture of both: math.stackexchange.com/questions/963309/… and math.stackexchange.com/questions/250623/…
– Asaf Karagila♦
Feb 23 at 9:44












Hi @AsafKaragila, Can you check whether my above proof is correct?
– Le Anh Dung
Feb 24 at 9:02




Hi @AsafKaragila, Can you check whether my above proof is correct?
– Le Anh Dung
Feb 24 at 9:02










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
3
down vote



accepted










Here is how I would think about the problem:



Let $T$ be the set of all finite functions
$$
s colon n to A
$$
such that $n in mathbb N$, $s(0) = bara$ and, for all $i +1 < n$,
$$
s(i+1) in phi(s(i)).
$$
Let $R subseteq T times T$ be given by
$$
R = (s,t) in T^2 mid t text is a proper end-extension of s = (s,t) in T^2 mid s subsetneq t
$$



$R$ satisfies the requirement of DC (since $phi(a) neq emptyset$ for all $a in A$). Hence there is an infinite sequence (branch) $(s_n mid n in mathbb N)$ through $T$ such that for all $m < n in mathbb N colon s_m subsetneq s_n$. Let $s := bigcup_n in mathbb N s_n$. For each $k in mathbb N$ let $a_k := s(k)$. Then $(a_k mid n in mathbb N)$ is as desired.






share|cite|improve this answer






















  • The above also suggest how you can reformulate DC into an equivalent statement that is a generalization of Kőnig's lemma. I find that reformulation much easier to work with in practice. (Mind you: There is a good chance this is only true because I've been inflicted with the 'just build a search tree' virus of inner model theory.)
    – Stefan Mesken
    Feb 23 at 13:55







  • 1




    To some extent, the tree variant is the clearer version of DC. The reason is that it's easy to translate it into pretty much every other variant.
    – Asaf Karagila♦
    Feb 23 at 14:50






  • 1




    @leanhdung No, it's $s colon n to A$ -- they are functions with finite domain. (But you should note that, in my notation, $n = 0,1, ldots, n-1 $ -- that's standard among set theorists but maybe not among other mathematicians.)
    – Stefan Mesken
    Feb 24 at 8:10







  • 1




    @leanhdung At that point I'm not making any choices -- I simply collect all of those sequences into a set (a priori it could be that there just aren't that many such sequences). Then, in a second step, I use DC to show that not only are there infinitely many such sequences -- there is even an infinite 'chain' (a branch) of them. This may not be true in the absence of DC. (Side note: I usually don't take a stance on the 'philosophical truth' of axioms but I must say -- to me DC seems 'true', it's almost mind bending to me to imagine a situation in which it could possibly fail.)
    – Stefan Mesken
    Feb 24 at 10:23







  • 1




    Now I got that point, but i'm still not sure how $R$ satisfies the requirement of DC i.e for all $sin T$, there exists $s'in T$ such that $ssubsetneq s'$. Please check my reasoning: 1. Assume $s: nto A$ such that $sin T$, let $s': n+1to A$ such that $s'(x)=s(x)$ for all $xleqslant n-1$ and $s'(n)in phi(s(n-1))implies s'in T$ and $s'subsetneq s$.
    – Le Anh Dung
    Feb 26 at 3:48

















up vote
0
down vote













Let $mathcal R = (a,b) in A times A mid a,b in A text and b in phi(a) $, then $mathcal R$ satisfies DC's requirement. Hence there is an infinite sequence (branch) $(a_n mid n in mathbb N)$ through $A$ such that $a_n+1 in phi(a_n)$ for all $n in mathbb N$.






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    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes








    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes








    up vote
    3
    down vote



    accepted










    Here is how I would think about the problem:



    Let $T$ be the set of all finite functions
    $$
    s colon n to A
    $$
    such that $n in mathbb N$, $s(0) = bara$ and, for all $i +1 < n$,
    $$
    s(i+1) in phi(s(i)).
    $$
    Let $R subseteq T times T$ be given by
    $$
    R = (s,t) in T^2 mid t text is a proper end-extension of s = (s,t) in T^2 mid s subsetneq t
    $$



    $R$ satisfies the requirement of DC (since $phi(a) neq emptyset$ for all $a in A$). Hence there is an infinite sequence (branch) $(s_n mid n in mathbb N)$ through $T$ such that for all $m < n in mathbb N colon s_m subsetneq s_n$. Let $s := bigcup_n in mathbb N s_n$. For each $k in mathbb N$ let $a_k := s(k)$. Then $(a_k mid n in mathbb N)$ is as desired.






    share|cite|improve this answer






















    • The above also suggest how you can reformulate DC into an equivalent statement that is a generalization of Kőnig's lemma. I find that reformulation much easier to work with in practice. (Mind you: There is a good chance this is only true because I've been inflicted with the 'just build a search tree' virus of inner model theory.)
      – Stefan Mesken
      Feb 23 at 13:55







    • 1




      To some extent, the tree variant is the clearer version of DC. The reason is that it's easy to translate it into pretty much every other variant.
      – Asaf Karagila♦
      Feb 23 at 14:50






    • 1




      @leanhdung No, it's $s colon n to A$ -- they are functions with finite domain. (But you should note that, in my notation, $n = 0,1, ldots, n-1 $ -- that's standard among set theorists but maybe not among other mathematicians.)
      – Stefan Mesken
      Feb 24 at 8:10







    • 1




      @leanhdung At that point I'm not making any choices -- I simply collect all of those sequences into a set (a priori it could be that there just aren't that many such sequences). Then, in a second step, I use DC to show that not only are there infinitely many such sequences -- there is even an infinite 'chain' (a branch) of them. This may not be true in the absence of DC. (Side note: I usually don't take a stance on the 'philosophical truth' of axioms but I must say -- to me DC seems 'true', it's almost mind bending to me to imagine a situation in which it could possibly fail.)
      – Stefan Mesken
      Feb 24 at 10:23







    • 1




      Now I got that point, but i'm still not sure how $R$ satisfies the requirement of DC i.e for all $sin T$, there exists $s'in T$ such that $ssubsetneq s'$. Please check my reasoning: 1. Assume $s: nto A$ such that $sin T$, let $s': n+1to A$ such that $s'(x)=s(x)$ for all $xleqslant n-1$ and $s'(n)in phi(s(n-1))implies s'in T$ and $s'subsetneq s$.
      – Le Anh Dung
      Feb 26 at 3:48














    up vote
    3
    down vote



    accepted










    Here is how I would think about the problem:



    Let $T$ be the set of all finite functions
    $$
    s colon n to A
    $$
    such that $n in mathbb N$, $s(0) = bara$ and, for all $i +1 < n$,
    $$
    s(i+1) in phi(s(i)).
    $$
    Let $R subseteq T times T$ be given by
    $$
    R = (s,t) in T^2 mid t text is a proper end-extension of s = (s,t) in T^2 mid s subsetneq t
    $$



    $R$ satisfies the requirement of DC (since $phi(a) neq emptyset$ for all $a in A$). Hence there is an infinite sequence (branch) $(s_n mid n in mathbb N)$ through $T$ such that for all $m < n in mathbb N colon s_m subsetneq s_n$. Let $s := bigcup_n in mathbb N s_n$. For each $k in mathbb N$ let $a_k := s(k)$. Then $(a_k mid n in mathbb N)$ is as desired.






    share|cite|improve this answer






















    • The above also suggest how you can reformulate DC into an equivalent statement that is a generalization of Kőnig's lemma. I find that reformulation much easier to work with in practice. (Mind you: There is a good chance this is only true because I've been inflicted with the 'just build a search tree' virus of inner model theory.)
      – Stefan Mesken
      Feb 23 at 13:55







    • 1




      To some extent, the tree variant is the clearer version of DC. The reason is that it's easy to translate it into pretty much every other variant.
      – Asaf Karagila♦
      Feb 23 at 14:50






    • 1




      @leanhdung No, it's $s colon n to A$ -- they are functions with finite domain. (But you should note that, in my notation, $n = 0,1, ldots, n-1 $ -- that's standard among set theorists but maybe not among other mathematicians.)
      – Stefan Mesken
      Feb 24 at 8:10







    • 1




      @leanhdung At that point I'm not making any choices -- I simply collect all of those sequences into a set (a priori it could be that there just aren't that many such sequences). Then, in a second step, I use DC to show that not only are there infinitely many such sequences -- there is even an infinite 'chain' (a branch) of them. This may not be true in the absence of DC. (Side note: I usually don't take a stance on the 'philosophical truth' of axioms but I must say -- to me DC seems 'true', it's almost mind bending to me to imagine a situation in which it could possibly fail.)
      – Stefan Mesken
      Feb 24 at 10:23







    • 1




      Now I got that point, but i'm still not sure how $R$ satisfies the requirement of DC i.e for all $sin T$, there exists $s'in T$ such that $ssubsetneq s'$. Please check my reasoning: 1. Assume $s: nto A$ such that $sin T$, let $s': n+1to A$ such that $s'(x)=s(x)$ for all $xleqslant n-1$ and $s'(n)in phi(s(n-1))implies s'in T$ and $s'subsetneq s$.
      – Le Anh Dung
      Feb 26 at 3:48












    up vote
    3
    down vote



    accepted







    up vote
    3
    down vote



    accepted






    Here is how I would think about the problem:



    Let $T$ be the set of all finite functions
    $$
    s colon n to A
    $$
    such that $n in mathbb N$, $s(0) = bara$ and, for all $i +1 < n$,
    $$
    s(i+1) in phi(s(i)).
    $$
    Let $R subseteq T times T$ be given by
    $$
    R = (s,t) in T^2 mid t text is a proper end-extension of s = (s,t) in T^2 mid s subsetneq t
    $$



    $R$ satisfies the requirement of DC (since $phi(a) neq emptyset$ for all $a in A$). Hence there is an infinite sequence (branch) $(s_n mid n in mathbb N)$ through $T$ such that for all $m < n in mathbb N colon s_m subsetneq s_n$. Let $s := bigcup_n in mathbb N s_n$. For each $k in mathbb N$ let $a_k := s(k)$. Then $(a_k mid n in mathbb N)$ is as desired.






    share|cite|improve this answer














    Here is how I would think about the problem:



    Let $T$ be the set of all finite functions
    $$
    s colon n to A
    $$
    such that $n in mathbb N$, $s(0) = bara$ and, for all $i +1 < n$,
    $$
    s(i+1) in phi(s(i)).
    $$
    Let $R subseteq T times T$ be given by
    $$
    R = (s,t) in T^2 mid t text is a proper end-extension of s = (s,t) in T^2 mid s subsetneq t
    $$



    $R$ satisfies the requirement of DC (since $phi(a) neq emptyset$ for all $a in A$). Hence there is an infinite sequence (branch) $(s_n mid n in mathbb N)$ through $T$ such that for all $m < n in mathbb N colon s_m subsetneq s_n$. Let $s := bigcup_n in mathbb N s_n$. For each $k in mathbb N$ let $a_k := s(k)$. Then $(a_k mid n in mathbb N)$ is as desired.







    share|cite|improve this answer














    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer








    edited Mar 12 at 7:53

























    answered Feb 23 at 13:52









    Stefan Mesken

    13.6k32045




    13.6k32045











    • The above also suggest how you can reformulate DC into an equivalent statement that is a generalization of Kőnig's lemma. I find that reformulation much easier to work with in practice. (Mind you: There is a good chance this is only true because I've been inflicted with the 'just build a search tree' virus of inner model theory.)
      – Stefan Mesken
      Feb 23 at 13:55







    • 1




      To some extent, the tree variant is the clearer version of DC. The reason is that it's easy to translate it into pretty much every other variant.
      – Asaf Karagila♦
      Feb 23 at 14:50






    • 1




      @leanhdung No, it's $s colon n to A$ -- they are functions with finite domain. (But you should note that, in my notation, $n = 0,1, ldots, n-1 $ -- that's standard among set theorists but maybe not among other mathematicians.)
      – Stefan Mesken
      Feb 24 at 8:10







    • 1




      @leanhdung At that point I'm not making any choices -- I simply collect all of those sequences into a set (a priori it could be that there just aren't that many such sequences). Then, in a second step, I use DC to show that not only are there infinitely many such sequences -- there is even an infinite 'chain' (a branch) of them. This may not be true in the absence of DC. (Side note: I usually don't take a stance on the 'philosophical truth' of axioms but I must say -- to me DC seems 'true', it's almost mind bending to me to imagine a situation in which it could possibly fail.)
      – Stefan Mesken
      Feb 24 at 10:23







    • 1




      Now I got that point, but i'm still not sure how $R$ satisfies the requirement of DC i.e for all $sin T$, there exists $s'in T$ such that $ssubsetneq s'$. Please check my reasoning: 1. Assume $s: nto A$ such that $sin T$, let $s': n+1to A$ such that $s'(x)=s(x)$ for all $xleqslant n-1$ and $s'(n)in phi(s(n-1))implies s'in T$ and $s'subsetneq s$.
      – Le Anh Dung
      Feb 26 at 3:48
















    • The above also suggest how you can reformulate DC into an equivalent statement that is a generalization of Kőnig's lemma. I find that reformulation much easier to work with in practice. (Mind you: There is a good chance this is only true because I've been inflicted with the 'just build a search tree' virus of inner model theory.)
      – Stefan Mesken
      Feb 23 at 13:55







    • 1




      To some extent, the tree variant is the clearer version of DC. The reason is that it's easy to translate it into pretty much every other variant.
      – Asaf Karagila♦
      Feb 23 at 14:50






    • 1




      @leanhdung No, it's $s colon n to A$ -- they are functions with finite domain. (But you should note that, in my notation, $n = 0,1, ldots, n-1 $ -- that's standard among set theorists but maybe not among other mathematicians.)
      – Stefan Mesken
      Feb 24 at 8:10







    • 1




      @leanhdung At that point I'm not making any choices -- I simply collect all of those sequences into a set (a priori it could be that there just aren't that many such sequences). Then, in a second step, I use DC to show that not only are there infinitely many such sequences -- there is even an infinite 'chain' (a branch) of them. This may not be true in the absence of DC. (Side note: I usually don't take a stance on the 'philosophical truth' of axioms but I must say -- to me DC seems 'true', it's almost mind bending to me to imagine a situation in which it could possibly fail.)
      – Stefan Mesken
      Feb 24 at 10:23







    • 1




      Now I got that point, but i'm still not sure how $R$ satisfies the requirement of DC i.e for all $sin T$, there exists $s'in T$ such that $ssubsetneq s'$. Please check my reasoning: 1. Assume $s: nto A$ such that $sin T$, let $s': n+1to A$ such that $s'(x)=s(x)$ for all $xleqslant n-1$ and $s'(n)in phi(s(n-1))implies s'in T$ and $s'subsetneq s$.
      – Le Anh Dung
      Feb 26 at 3:48















    The above also suggest how you can reformulate DC into an equivalent statement that is a generalization of Kőnig's lemma. I find that reformulation much easier to work with in practice. (Mind you: There is a good chance this is only true because I've been inflicted with the 'just build a search tree' virus of inner model theory.)
    – Stefan Mesken
    Feb 23 at 13:55





    The above also suggest how you can reformulate DC into an equivalent statement that is a generalization of Kőnig's lemma. I find that reformulation much easier to work with in practice. (Mind you: There is a good chance this is only true because I've been inflicted with the 'just build a search tree' virus of inner model theory.)
    – Stefan Mesken
    Feb 23 at 13:55





    1




    1




    To some extent, the tree variant is the clearer version of DC. The reason is that it's easy to translate it into pretty much every other variant.
    – Asaf Karagila♦
    Feb 23 at 14:50




    To some extent, the tree variant is the clearer version of DC. The reason is that it's easy to translate it into pretty much every other variant.
    – Asaf Karagila♦
    Feb 23 at 14:50




    1




    1




    @leanhdung No, it's $s colon n to A$ -- they are functions with finite domain. (But you should note that, in my notation, $n = 0,1, ldots, n-1 $ -- that's standard among set theorists but maybe not among other mathematicians.)
    – Stefan Mesken
    Feb 24 at 8:10





    @leanhdung No, it's $s colon n to A$ -- they are functions with finite domain. (But you should note that, in my notation, $n = 0,1, ldots, n-1 $ -- that's standard among set theorists but maybe not among other mathematicians.)
    – Stefan Mesken
    Feb 24 at 8:10





    1




    1




    @leanhdung At that point I'm not making any choices -- I simply collect all of those sequences into a set (a priori it could be that there just aren't that many such sequences). Then, in a second step, I use DC to show that not only are there infinitely many such sequences -- there is even an infinite 'chain' (a branch) of them. This may not be true in the absence of DC. (Side note: I usually don't take a stance on the 'philosophical truth' of axioms but I must say -- to me DC seems 'true', it's almost mind bending to me to imagine a situation in which it could possibly fail.)
    – Stefan Mesken
    Feb 24 at 10:23





    @leanhdung At that point I'm not making any choices -- I simply collect all of those sequences into a set (a priori it could be that there just aren't that many such sequences). Then, in a second step, I use DC to show that not only are there infinitely many such sequences -- there is even an infinite 'chain' (a branch) of them. This may not be true in the absence of DC. (Side note: I usually don't take a stance on the 'philosophical truth' of axioms but I must say -- to me DC seems 'true', it's almost mind bending to me to imagine a situation in which it could possibly fail.)
    – Stefan Mesken
    Feb 24 at 10:23





    1




    1




    Now I got that point, but i'm still not sure how $R$ satisfies the requirement of DC i.e for all $sin T$, there exists $s'in T$ such that $ssubsetneq s'$. Please check my reasoning: 1. Assume $s: nto A$ such that $sin T$, let $s': n+1to A$ such that $s'(x)=s(x)$ for all $xleqslant n-1$ and $s'(n)in phi(s(n-1))implies s'in T$ and $s'subsetneq s$.
    – Le Anh Dung
    Feb 26 at 3:48




    Now I got that point, but i'm still not sure how $R$ satisfies the requirement of DC i.e for all $sin T$, there exists $s'in T$ such that $ssubsetneq s'$. Please check my reasoning: 1. Assume $s: nto A$ such that $sin T$, let $s': n+1to A$ such that $s'(x)=s(x)$ for all $xleqslant n-1$ and $s'(n)in phi(s(n-1))implies s'in T$ and $s'subsetneq s$.
    – Le Anh Dung
    Feb 26 at 3:48










    up vote
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    down vote













    Let $mathcal R = (a,b) in A times A mid a,b in A text and b in phi(a) $, then $mathcal R$ satisfies DC's requirement. Hence there is an infinite sequence (branch) $(a_n mid n in mathbb N)$ through $A$ such that $a_n+1 in phi(a_n)$ for all $n in mathbb N$.






    share|cite|improve this answer
























      up vote
      0
      down vote













      Let $mathcal R = (a,b) in A times A mid a,b in A text and b in phi(a) $, then $mathcal R$ satisfies DC's requirement. Hence there is an infinite sequence (branch) $(a_n mid n in mathbb N)$ through $A$ such that $a_n+1 in phi(a_n)$ for all $n in mathbb N$.






      share|cite|improve this answer






















        up vote
        0
        down vote










        up vote
        0
        down vote









        Let $mathcal R = (a,b) in A times A mid a,b in A text and b in phi(a) $, then $mathcal R$ satisfies DC's requirement. Hence there is an infinite sequence (branch) $(a_n mid n in mathbb N)$ through $A$ such that $a_n+1 in phi(a_n)$ for all $n in mathbb N$.






        share|cite|improve this answer












        Let $mathcal R = (a,b) in A times A mid a,b in A text and b in phi(a) $, then $mathcal R$ satisfies DC's requirement. Hence there is an infinite sequence (branch) $(a_n mid n in mathbb N)$ through $A$ such that $a_n+1 in phi(a_n)$ for all $n in mathbb N$.







        share|cite|improve this answer












        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer










        answered Aug 31 at 1:33









        Le Anh Dung

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