How does Axiom of Dependent Choice imply this weaker variant?
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Here is the excerpt from the textbook A Course in Mathematical Analysis by Prof D. J. H. Garling.
So I have the Theorem 1:
Given a set $Aneqvarnothing$, a mapping $varphi:Ato P(A
)setminus varnothing$, and $barain A$. Then there exists a sequence
$$(a_n)_nin mathbbN$$
such that $a_0=bara$ and $a_n+1in varphi(a_n)$ for all $nin mathbbN$
Axiom of Choice:
Given a collection $A$ of nonempty sets, there exists a function
$$c: A to bigcup_A_i in AA_i$$
such that $c(A_i)in A_i$ for all $A_i in A$.
Axiom of Dependent Choice:
Given a nonempty set $A$ and a binary relation $mathcalR$ on $A$ such that for all $ain A$, there exists $bin A$ such that $amathcalRb$. There exists a sequence
$$(a_n)_nin mathbbN$$
such that $a_nmathcalRa_n+1$ for all $n in mathbbN$.
The author states that The axiom of dependent choice
states that this [Theorem 1] is always possible. But I can only infer Theorem 1 from Axiom of Choice, not from Axiom of Dependent Choice. Below is how I did it.
Using Axiom of Choice for the collection $P(A)setminus varnothing$ of nonempty sets, then there exists a choice function $$varphi':P(A)setminus varnothing to A$$ such that $varphi'(X)in X$ for all $Xin P(A)setminus varnothing$.Let $barvarphi=varphi'circ varphi:Ato Aimpliesbarvarphi(a)=varphi'(varphi(a))in varphi(bara)$ for all $ain A$
To sum up, we have $barvarphi:Ato A$ and $barain A$. Applying Recursion Theorem, we get a sequence $$(a_n)_nin mathbbN$$ such that $a_0=bara$ and $a_n+1=barvarphi(a_n)invarphi(a_n)$ for all $nin mathbbN$.
So this $(a_n)_nin mathbbN$ is the required sequence.
I would like you to check my above proof and check whether it is possible for Axiom of Dependent Choice to imply Theorem 1.
Many thanks for your help!
elementary-set-theory axiom-of-choice
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
Here is the excerpt from the textbook A Course in Mathematical Analysis by Prof D. J. H. Garling.
So I have the Theorem 1:
Given a set $Aneqvarnothing$, a mapping $varphi:Ato P(A
)setminus varnothing$, and $barain A$. Then there exists a sequence
$$(a_n)_nin mathbbN$$
such that $a_0=bara$ and $a_n+1in varphi(a_n)$ for all $nin mathbbN$
Axiom of Choice:
Given a collection $A$ of nonempty sets, there exists a function
$$c: A to bigcup_A_i in AA_i$$
such that $c(A_i)in A_i$ for all $A_i in A$.
Axiom of Dependent Choice:
Given a nonempty set $A$ and a binary relation $mathcalR$ on $A$ such that for all $ain A$, there exists $bin A$ such that $amathcalRb$. There exists a sequence
$$(a_n)_nin mathbbN$$
such that $a_nmathcalRa_n+1$ for all $n in mathbbN$.
The author states that The axiom of dependent choice
states that this [Theorem 1] is always possible. But I can only infer Theorem 1 from Axiom of Choice, not from Axiom of Dependent Choice. Below is how I did it.
Using Axiom of Choice for the collection $P(A)setminus varnothing$ of nonempty sets, then there exists a choice function $$varphi':P(A)setminus varnothing to A$$ such that $varphi'(X)in X$ for all $Xin P(A)setminus varnothing$.Let $barvarphi=varphi'circ varphi:Ato Aimpliesbarvarphi(a)=varphi'(varphi(a))in varphi(bara)$ for all $ain A$
To sum up, we have $barvarphi:Ato A$ and $barain A$. Applying Recursion Theorem, we get a sequence $$(a_n)_nin mathbbN$$ such that $a_0=bara$ and $a_n+1=barvarphi(a_n)invarphi(a_n)$ for all $nin mathbbN$.
So this $(a_n)_nin mathbbN$ is the required sequence.
I would like you to check my above proof and check whether it is possible for Axiom of Dependent Choice to imply Theorem 1.
Many thanks for your help!
elementary-set-theory axiom-of-choice
The answer is a mixture of both: math.stackexchange.com/questions/963309/⦠and math.stackexchange.com/questions/250623/â¦
â Asaf Karagilaâ¦
Feb 23 at 9:44
Hi @AsafKaragila, Can you check whether my above proof is correct?
â Le Anh Dung
Feb 24 at 9:02
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
Here is the excerpt from the textbook A Course in Mathematical Analysis by Prof D. J. H. Garling.
So I have the Theorem 1:
Given a set $Aneqvarnothing$, a mapping $varphi:Ato P(A
)setminus varnothing$, and $barain A$. Then there exists a sequence
$$(a_n)_nin mathbbN$$
such that $a_0=bara$ and $a_n+1in varphi(a_n)$ for all $nin mathbbN$
Axiom of Choice:
Given a collection $A$ of nonempty sets, there exists a function
$$c: A to bigcup_A_i in AA_i$$
such that $c(A_i)in A_i$ for all $A_i in A$.
Axiom of Dependent Choice:
Given a nonempty set $A$ and a binary relation $mathcalR$ on $A$ such that for all $ain A$, there exists $bin A$ such that $amathcalRb$. There exists a sequence
$$(a_n)_nin mathbbN$$
such that $a_nmathcalRa_n+1$ for all $n in mathbbN$.
The author states that The axiom of dependent choice
states that this [Theorem 1] is always possible. But I can only infer Theorem 1 from Axiom of Choice, not from Axiom of Dependent Choice. Below is how I did it.
Using Axiom of Choice for the collection $P(A)setminus varnothing$ of nonempty sets, then there exists a choice function $$varphi':P(A)setminus varnothing to A$$ such that $varphi'(X)in X$ for all $Xin P(A)setminus varnothing$.Let $barvarphi=varphi'circ varphi:Ato Aimpliesbarvarphi(a)=varphi'(varphi(a))in varphi(bara)$ for all $ain A$
To sum up, we have $barvarphi:Ato A$ and $barain A$. Applying Recursion Theorem, we get a sequence $$(a_n)_nin mathbbN$$ such that $a_0=bara$ and $a_n+1=barvarphi(a_n)invarphi(a_n)$ for all $nin mathbbN$.
So this $(a_n)_nin mathbbN$ is the required sequence.
I would like you to check my above proof and check whether it is possible for Axiom of Dependent Choice to imply Theorem 1.
Many thanks for your help!
elementary-set-theory axiom-of-choice
Here is the excerpt from the textbook A Course in Mathematical Analysis by Prof D. J. H. Garling.
So I have the Theorem 1:
Given a set $Aneqvarnothing$, a mapping $varphi:Ato P(A
)setminus varnothing$, and $barain A$. Then there exists a sequence
$$(a_n)_nin mathbbN$$
such that $a_0=bara$ and $a_n+1in varphi(a_n)$ for all $nin mathbbN$
Axiom of Choice:
Given a collection $A$ of nonempty sets, there exists a function
$$c: A to bigcup_A_i in AA_i$$
such that $c(A_i)in A_i$ for all $A_i in A$.
Axiom of Dependent Choice:
Given a nonempty set $A$ and a binary relation $mathcalR$ on $A$ such that for all $ain A$, there exists $bin A$ such that $amathcalRb$. There exists a sequence
$$(a_n)_nin mathbbN$$
such that $a_nmathcalRa_n+1$ for all $n in mathbbN$.
The author states that The axiom of dependent choice
states that this [Theorem 1] is always possible. But I can only infer Theorem 1 from Axiom of Choice, not from Axiom of Dependent Choice. Below is how I did it.
Using Axiom of Choice for the collection $P(A)setminus varnothing$ of nonempty sets, then there exists a choice function $$varphi':P(A)setminus varnothing to A$$ such that $varphi'(X)in X$ for all $Xin P(A)setminus varnothing$.Let $barvarphi=varphi'circ varphi:Ato Aimpliesbarvarphi(a)=varphi'(varphi(a))in varphi(bara)$ for all $ain A$
To sum up, we have $barvarphi:Ato A$ and $barain A$. Applying Recursion Theorem, we get a sequence $$(a_n)_nin mathbbN$$ such that $a_0=bara$ and $a_n+1=barvarphi(a_n)invarphi(a_n)$ for all $nin mathbbN$.
So this $(a_n)_nin mathbbN$ is the required sequence.
I would like you to check my above proof and check whether it is possible for Axiom of Dependent Choice to imply Theorem 1.
Many thanks for your help!
elementary-set-theory axiom-of-choice
elementary-set-theory axiom-of-choice
edited Aug 31 at 0:45
asked Feb 23 at 9:38
Le Anh Dung
709419
709419
The answer is a mixture of both: math.stackexchange.com/questions/963309/⦠and math.stackexchange.com/questions/250623/â¦
â Asaf Karagilaâ¦
Feb 23 at 9:44
Hi @AsafKaragila, Can you check whether my above proof is correct?
â Le Anh Dung
Feb 24 at 9:02
add a comment |Â
The answer is a mixture of both: math.stackexchange.com/questions/963309/⦠and math.stackexchange.com/questions/250623/â¦
â Asaf Karagilaâ¦
Feb 23 at 9:44
Hi @AsafKaragila, Can you check whether my above proof is correct?
â Le Anh Dung
Feb 24 at 9:02
The answer is a mixture of both: math.stackexchange.com/questions/963309/⦠and math.stackexchange.com/questions/250623/â¦
â Asaf Karagilaâ¦
Feb 23 at 9:44
The answer is a mixture of both: math.stackexchange.com/questions/963309/⦠and math.stackexchange.com/questions/250623/â¦
â Asaf Karagilaâ¦
Feb 23 at 9:44
Hi @AsafKaragila, Can you check whether my above proof is correct?
â Le Anh Dung
Feb 24 at 9:02
Hi @AsafKaragila, Can you check whether my above proof is correct?
â Le Anh Dung
Feb 24 at 9:02
add a comment |Â
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
up vote
3
down vote
accepted
Here is how I would think about the problem:
Let $T$ be the set of all finite functions
$$
s colon n to A
$$
such that $n in mathbb N$, $s(0) = bara$ and, for all $i +1 < n$,
$$
s(i+1) in phi(s(i)).
$$
Let $R subseteq T times T$ be given by
$$
R = (s,t) in T^2 mid t text is a proper end-extension of s = (s,t) in T^2 mid s subsetneq t
$$
$R$ satisfies the requirement of DC (since $phi(a) neq emptyset$ for all $a in A$). Hence there is an infinite sequence (branch) $(s_n mid n in mathbb N)$ through $T$ such that for all $m < n in mathbb N colon s_m subsetneq s_n$. Let $s := bigcup_n in mathbb N s_n$. For each $k in mathbb N$ let $a_k := s(k)$. Then $(a_k mid n in mathbb N)$ is as desired.
The above also suggest how you can reformulate DC into an equivalent statement that is a generalization of KÃ Ânig's lemma. I find that reformulation much easier to work with in practice. (Mind you: There is a good chance this is only true because I've been inflicted with the 'just build a search tree' virus of inner model theory.)
â Stefan Mesken
Feb 23 at 13:55
1
To some extent, the tree variant is the clearer version of DC. The reason is that it's easy to translate it into pretty much every other variant.
â Asaf Karagilaâ¦
Feb 23 at 14:50
1
@leanhdung No, it's $s colon n to A$ -- they are functions with finite domain. (But you should note that, in my notation, $n = 0,1, ldots, n-1 $ -- that's standard among set theorists but maybe not among other mathematicians.)
â Stefan Mesken
Feb 24 at 8:10
1
@leanhdung At that point I'm not making any choices -- I simply collect all of those sequences into a set (a priori it could be that there just aren't that many such sequences). Then, in a second step, I use DC to show that not only are there infinitely many such sequences -- there is even an infinite 'chain' (a branch) of them. This may not be true in the absence of DC. (Side note: I usually don't take a stance on the 'philosophical truth' of axioms but I must say -- to me DC seems 'true', it's almost mind bending to me to imagine a situation in which it could possibly fail.)
â Stefan Mesken
Feb 24 at 10:23
1
Now I got that point, but i'm still not sure how $R$ satisfies the requirement of DC i.e for all $sin T$, there exists $s'in T$ such that $ssubsetneq s'$. Please check my reasoning: 1. Assume $s: nto A$ such that $sin T$, let $s': n+1to A$ such that $s'(x)=s(x)$ for all $xleqslant n-1$ and $s'(n)in phi(s(n-1))implies s'in T$ and $s'subsetneq s$.
â Le Anh Dung
Feb 26 at 3:48
 |Â
show 12 more comments
up vote
0
down vote
Let $mathcal R = (a,b) in A times A mid a,b in A text and b in phi(a) $, then $mathcal R$ satisfies DC's requirement. Hence there is an infinite sequence (branch) $(a_n mid n in mathbb N)$ through $A$ such that $a_n+1 in phi(a_n)$ for all $n in mathbb N$.
add a comment |Â
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
3
down vote
accepted
Here is how I would think about the problem:
Let $T$ be the set of all finite functions
$$
s colon n to A
$$
such that $n in mathbb N$, $s(0) = bara$ and, for all $i +1 < n$,
$$
s(i+1) in phi(s(i)).
$$
Let $R subseteq T times T$ be given by
$$
R = (s,t) in T^2 mid t text is a proper end-extension of s = (s,t) in T^2 mid s subsetneq t
$$
$R$ satisfies the requirement of DC (since $phi(a) neq emptyset$ for all $a in A$). Hence there is an infinite sequence (branch) $(s_n mid n in mathbb N)$ through $T$ such that for all $m < n in mathbb N colon s_m subsetneq s_n$. Let $s := bigcup_n in mathbb N s_n$. For each $k in mathbb N$ let $a_k := s(k)$. Then $(a_k mid n in mathbb N)$ is as desired.
The above also suggest how you can reformulate DC into an equivalent statement that is a generalization of KÃ Ânig's lemma. I find that reformulation much easier to work with in practice. (Mind you: There is a good chance this is only true because I've been inflicted with the 'just build a search tree' virus of inner model theory.)
â Stefan Mesken
Feb 23 at 13:55
1
To some extent, the tree variant is the clearer version of DC. The reason is that it's easy to translate it into pretty much every other variant.
â Asaf Karagilaâ¦
Feb 23 at 14:50
1
@leanhdung No, it's $s colon n to A$ -- they are functions with finite domain. (But you should note that, in my notation, $n = 0,1, ldots, n-1 $ -- that's standard among set theorists but maybe not among other mathematicians.)
â Stefan Mesken
Feb 24 at 8:10
1
@leanhdung At that point I'm not making any choices -- I simply collect all of those sequences into a set (a priori it could be that there just aren't that many such sequences). Then, in a second step, I use DC to show that not only are there infinitely many such sequences -- there is even an infinite 'chain' (a branch) of them. This may not be true in the absence of DC. (Side note: I usually don't take a stance on the 'philosophical truth' of axioms but I must say -- to me DC seems 'true', it's almost mind bending to me to imagine a situation in which it could possibly fail.)
â Stefan Mesken
Feb 24 at 10:23
1
Now I got that point, but i'm still not sure how $R$ satisfies the requirement of DC i.e for all $sin T$, there exists $s'in T$ such that $ssubsetneq s'$. Please check my reasoning: 1. Assume $s: nto A$ such that $sin T$, let $s': n+1to A$ such that $s'(x)=s(x)$ for all $xleqslant n-1$ and $s'(n)in phi(s(n-1))implies s'in T$ and $s'subsetneq s$.
â Le Anh Dung
Feb 26 at 3:48
 |Â
show 12 more comments
up vote
3
down vote
accepted
Here is how I would think about the problem:
Let $T$ be the set of all finite functions
$$
s colon n to A
$$
such that $n in mathbb N$, $s(0) = bara$ and, for all $i +1 < n$,
$$
s(i+1) in phi(s(i)).
$$
Let $R subseteq T times T$ be given by
$$
R = (s,t) in T^2 mid t text is a proper end-extension of s = (s,t) in T^2 mid s subsetneq t
$$
$R$ satisfies the requirement of DC (since $phi(a) neq emptyset$ for all $a in A$). Hence there is an infinite sequence (branch) $(s_n mid n in mathbb N)$ through $T$ such that for all $m < n in mathbb N colon s_m subsetneq s_n$. Let $s := bigcup_n in mathbb N s_n$. For each $k in mathbb N$ let $a_k := s(k)$. Then $(a_k mid n in mathbb N)$ is as desired.
The above also suggest how you can reformulate DC into an equivalent statement that is a generalization of KÃ Ânig's lemma. I find that reformulation much easier to work with in practice. (Mind you: There is a good chance this is only true because I've been inflicted with the 'just build a search tree' virus of inner model theory.)
â Stefan Mesken
Feb 23 at 13:55
1
To some extent, the tree variant is the clearer version of DC. The reason is that it's easy to translate it into pretty much every other variant.
â Asaf Karagilaâ¦
Feb 23 at 14:50
1
@leanhdung No, it's $s colon n to A$ -- they are functions with finite domain. (But you should note that, in my notation, $n = 0,1, ldots, n-1 $ -- that's standard among set theorists but maybe not among other mathematicians.)
â Stefan Mesken
Feb 24 at 8:10
1
@leanhdung At that point I'm not making any choices -- I simply collect all of those sequences into a set (a priori it could be that there just aren't that many such sequences). Then, in a second step, I use DC to show that not only are there infinitely many such sequences -- there is even an infinite 'chain' (a branch) of them. This may not be true in the absence of DC. (Side note: I usually don't take a stance on the 'philosophical truth' of axioms but I must say -- to me DC seems 'true', it's almost mind bending to me to imagine a situation in which it could possibly fail.)
â Stefan Mesken
Feb 24 at 10:23
1
Now I got that point, but i'm still not sure how $R$ satisfies the requirement of DC i.e for all $sin T$, there exists $s'in T$ such that $ssubsetneq s'$. Please check my reasoning: 1. Assume $s: nto A$ such that $sin T$, let $s': n+1to A$ such that $s'(x)=s(x)$ for all $xleqslant n-1$ and $s'(n)in phi(s(n-1))implies s'in T$ and $s'subsetneq s$.
â Le Anh Dung
Feb 26 at 3:48
 |Â
show 12 more comments
up vote
3
down vote
accepted
up vote
3
down vote
accepted
Here is how I would think about the problem:
Let $T$ be the set of all finite functions
$$
s colon n to A
$$
such that $n in mathbb N$, $s(0) = bara$ and, for all $i +1 < n$,
$$
s(i+1) in phi(s(i)).
$$
Let $R subseteq T times T$ be given by
$$
R = (s,t) in T^2 mid t text is a proper end-extension of s = (s,t) in T^2 mid s subsetneq t
$$
$R$ satisfies the requirement of DC (since $phi(a) neq emptyset$ for all $a in A$). Hence there is an infinite sequence (branch) $(s_n mid n in mathbb N)$ through $T$ such that for all $m < n in mathbb N colon s_m subsetneq s_n$. Let $s := bigcup_n in mathbb N s_n$. For each $k in mathbb N$ let $a_k := s(k)$. Then $(a_k mid n in mathbb N)$ is as desired.
Here is how I would think about the problem:
Let $T$ be the set of all finite functions
$$
s colon n to A
$$
such that $n in mathbb N$, $s(0) = bara$ and, for all $i +1 < n$,
$$
s(i+1) in phi(s(i)).
$$
Let $R subseteq T times T$ be given by
$$
R = (s,t) in T^2 mid t text is a proper end-extension of s = (s,t) in T^2 mid s subsetneq t
$$
$R$ satisfies the requirement of DC (since $phi(a) neq emptyset$ for all $a in A$). Hence there is an infinite sequence (branch) $(s_n mid n in mathbb N)$ through $T$ such that for all $m < n in mathbb N colon s_m subsetneq s_n$. Let $s := bigcup_n in mathbb N s_n$. For each $k in mathbb N$ let $a_k := s(k)$. Then $(a_k mid n in mathbb N)$ is as desired.
edited Mar 12 at 7:53
answered Feb 23 at 13:52
Stefan Mesken
13.6k32045
13.6k32045
The above also suggest how you can reformulate DC into an equivalent statement that is a generalization of KÃ Ânig's lemma. I find that reformulation much easier to work with in practice. (Mind you: There is a good chance this is only true because I've been inflicted with the 'just build a search tree' virus of inner model theory.)
â Stefan Mesken
Feb 23 at 13:55
1
To some extent, the tree variant is the clearer version of DC. The reason is that it's easy to translate it into pretty much every other variant.
â Asaf Karagilaâ¦
Feb 23 at 14:50
1
@leanhdung No, it's $s colon n to A$ -- they are functions with finite domain. (But you should note that, in my notation, $n = 0,1, ldots, n-1 $ -- that's standard among set theorists but maybe not among other mathematicians.)
â Stefan Mesken
Feb 24 at 8:10
1
@leanhdung At that point I'm not making any choices -- I simply collect all of those sequences into a set (a priori it could be that there just aren't that many such sequences). Then, in a second step, I use DC to show that not only are there infinitely many such sequences -- there is even an infinite 'chain' (a branch) of them. This may not be true in the absence of DC. (Side note: I usually don't take a stance on the 'philosophical truth' of axioms but I must say -- to me DC seems 'true', it's almost mind bending to me to imagine a situation in which it could possibly fail.)
â Stefan Mesken
Feb 24 at 10:23
1
Now I got that point, but i'm still not sure how $R$ satisfies the requirement of DC i.e for all $sin T$, there exists $s'in T$ such that $ssubsetneq s'$. Please check my reasoning: 1. Assume $s: nto A$ such that $sin T$, let $s': n+1to A$ such that $s'(x)=s(x)$ for all $xleqslant n-1$ and $s'(n)in phi(s(n-1))implies s'in T$ and $s'subsetneq s$.
â Le Anh Dung
Feb 26 at 3:48
 |Â
show 12 more comments
The above also suggest how you can reformulate DC into an equivalent statement that is a generalization of KÃ Ânig's lemma. I find that reformulation much easier to work with in practice. (Mind you: There is a good chance this is only true because I've been inflicted with the 'just build a search tree' virus of inner model theory.)
â Stefan Mesken
Feb 23 at 13:55
1
To some extent, the tree variant is the clearer version of DC. The reason is that it's easy to translate it into pretty much every other variant.
â Asaf Karagilaâ¦
Feb 23 at 14:50
1
@leanhdung No, it's $s colon n to A$ -- they are functions with finite domain. (But you should note that, in my notation, $n = 0,1, ldots, n-1 $ -- that's standard among set theorists but maybe not among other mathematicians.)
â Stefan Mesken
Feb 24 at 8:10
1
@leanhdung At that point I'm not making any choices -- I simply collect all of those sequences into a set (a priori it could be that there just aren't that many such sequences). Then, in a second step, I use DC to show that not only are there infinitely many such sequences -- there is even an infinite 'chain' (a branch) of them. This may not be true in the absence of DC. (Side note: I usually don't take a stance on the 'philosophical truth' of axioms but I must say -- to me DC seems 'true', it's almost mind bending to me to imagine a situation in which it could possibly fail.)
â Stefan Mesken
Feb 24 at 10:23
1
Now I got that point, but i'm still not sure how $R$ satisfies the requirement of DC i.e for all $sin T$, there exists $s'in T$ such that $ssubsetneq s'$. Please check my reasoning: 1. Assume $s: nto A$ such that $sin T$, let $s': n+1to A$ such that $s'(x)=s(x)$ for all $xleqslant n-1$ and $s'(n)in phi(s(n-1))implies s'in T$ and $s'subsetneq s$.
â Le Anh Dung
Feb 26 at 3:48
The above also suggest how you can reformulate DC into an equivalent statement that is a generalization of KÃ Ânig's lemma. I find that reformulation much easier to work with in practice. (Mind you: There is a good chance this is only true because I've been inflicted with the 'just build a search tree' virus of inner model theory.)
â Stefan Mesken
Feb 23 at 13:55
The above also suggest how you can reformulate DC into an equivalent statement that is a generalization of KÃ Ânig's lemma. I find that reformulation much easier to work with in practice. (Mind you: There is a good chance this is only true because I've been inflicted with the 'just build a search tree' virus of inner model theory.)
â Stefan Mesken
Feb 23 at 13:55
1
1
To some extent, the tree variant is the clearer version of DC. The reason is that it's easy to translate it into pretty much every other variant.
â Asaf Karagilaâ¦
Feb 23 at 14:50
To some extent, the tree variant is the clearer version of DC. The reason is that it's easy to translate it into pretty much every other variant.
â Asaf Karagilaâ¦
Feb 23 at 14:50
1
1
@leanhdung No, it's $s colon n to A$ -- they are functions with finite domain. (But you should note that, in my notation, $n = 0,1, ldots, n-1 $ -- that's standard among set theorists but maybe not among other mathematicians.)
â Stefan Mesken
Feb 24 at 8:10
@leanhdung No, it's $s colon n to A$ -- they are functions with finite domain. (But you should note that, in my notation, $n = 0,1, ldots, n-1 $ -- that's standard among set theorists but maybe not among other mathematicians.)
â Stefan Mesken
Feb 24 at 8:10
1
1
@leanhdung At that point I'm not making any choices -- I simply collect all of those sequences into a set (a priori it could be that there just aren't that many such sequences). Then, in a second step, I use DC to show that not only are there infinitely many such sequences -- there is even an infinite 'chain' (a branch) of them. This may not be true in the absence of DC. (Side note: I usually don't take a stance on the 'philosophical truth' of axioms but I must say -- to me DC seems 'true', it's almost mind bending to me to imagine a situation in which it could possibly fail.)
â Stefan Mesken
Feb 24 at 10:23
@leanhdung At that point I'm not making any choices -- I simply collect all of those sequences into a set (a priori it could be that there just aren't that many such sequences). Then, in a second step, I use DC to show that not only are there infinitely many such sequences -- there is even an infinite 'chain' (a branch) of them. This may not be true in the absence of DC. (Side note: I usually don't take a stance on the 'philosophical truth' of axioms but I must say -- to me DC seems 'true', it's almost mind bending to me to imagine a situation in which it could possibly fail.)
â Stefan Mesken
Feb 24 at 10:23
1
1
Now I got that point, but i'm still not sure how $R$ satisfies the requirement of DC i.e for all $sin T$, there exists $s'in T$ such that $ssubsetneq s'$. Please check my reasoning: 1. Assume $s: nto A$ such that $sin T$, let $s': n+1to A$ such that $s'(x)=s(x)$ for all $xleqslant n-1$ and $s'(n)in phi(s(n-1))implies s'in T$ and $s'subsetneq s$.
â Le Anh Dung
Feb 26 at 3:48
Now I got that point, but i'm still not sure how $R$ satisfies the requirement of DC i.e for all $sin T$, there exists $s'in T$ such that $ssubsetneq s'$. Please check my reasoning: 1. Assume $s: nto A$ such that $sin T$, let $s': n+1to A$ such that $s'(x)=s(x)$ for all $xleqslant n-1$ and $s'(n)in phi(s(n-1))implies s'in T$ and $s'subsetneq s$.
â Le Anh Dung
Feb 26 at 3:48
 |Â
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Let $mathcal R = (a,b) in A times A mid a,b in A text and b in phi(a) $, then $mathcal R$ satisfies DC's requirement. Hence there is an infinite sequence (branch) $(a_n mid n in mathbb N)$ through $A$ such that $a_n+1 in phi(a_n)$ for all $n in mathbb N$.
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Let $mathcal R = (a,b) in A times A mid a,b in A text and b in phi(a) $, then $mathcal R$ satisfies DC's requirement. Hence there is an infinite sequence (branch) $(a_n mid n in mathbb N)$ through $A$ such that $a_n+1 in phi(a_n)$ for all $n in mathbb N$.
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up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
Let $mathcal R = (a,b) in A times A mid a,b in A text and b in phi(a) $, then $mathcal R$ satisfies DC's requirement. Hence there is an infinite sequence (branch) $(a_n mid n in mathbb N)$ through $A$ such that $a_n+1 in phi(a_n)$ for all $n in mathbb N$.
Let $mathcal R = (a,b) in A times A mid a,b in A text and b in phi(a) $, then $mathcal R$ satisfies DC's requirement. Hence there is an infinite sequence (branch) $(a_n mid n in mathbb N)$ through $A$ such that $a_n+1 in phi(a_n)$ for all $n in mathbb N$.
answered Aug 31 at 1:33
Le Anh Dung
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709419
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The answer is a mixture of both: math.stackexchange.com/questions/963309/⦠and math.stackexchange.com/questions/250623/â¦
â Asaf Karagilaâ¦
Feb 23 at 9:44
Hi @AsafKaragila, Can you check whether my above proof is correct?
â Le Anh Dung
Feb 24 at 9:02