Criterion for a basis of a topology

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Here is part of Munkres' book on topology:enter image description here



I suppose the reader is supposed to use



enter image description here



to prove this. But I don't understand how. The lemma says that if there is a space with a fixed topology, then to show that a set forms a basis, one has to take an open set from the fixed topology and do something. But the order topology is being defined, how can I take an open set and prove that it contains a basis element if I don't know what open sets are yet?










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  • To step back a bit, one has a fixed topology when all the open sets are known (or, equivalently, when all of its closed sets are known). In that context we can ask whether a certain subset of the open sets do or do not constitute a basis for the topology. That's where the Lemma you cite might come into play. Given that framework, what is your Question? Merely quoting from the Munkres textbook does not fully state a problem to be solved.
    – hardmath
    Aug 31 at 0:53







  • 1




    My question is in the last sentence, I believe.
    – user531587
    Aug 31 at 1:19














up vote
2
down vote

favorite












Here is part of Munkres' book on topology:enter image description here



I suppose the reader is supposed to use



enter image description here



to prove this. But I don't understand how. The lemma says that if there is a space with a fixed topology, then to show that a set forms a basis, one has to take an open set from the fixed topology and do something. But the order topology is being defined, how can I take an open set and prove that it contains a basis element if I don't know what open sets are yet?










share|cite|improve this question





















  • To step back a bit, one has a fixed topology when all the open sets are known (or, equivalently, when all of its closed sets are known). In that context we can ask whether a certain subset of the open sets do or do not constitute a basis for the topology. That's where the Lemma you cite might come into play. Given that framework, what is your Question? Merely quoting from the Munkres textbook does not fully state a problem to be solved.
    – hardmath
    Aug 31 at 0:53







  • 1




    My question is in the last sentence, I believe.
    – user531587
    Aug 31 at 1:19












up vote
2
down vote

favorite









up vote
2
down vote

favorite











Here is part of Munkres' book on topology:enter image description here



I suppose the reader is supposed to use



enter image description here



to prove this. But I don't understand how. The lemma says that if there is a space with a fixed topology, then to show that a set forms a basis, one has to take an open set from the fixed topology and do something. But the order topology is being defined, how can I take an open set and prove that it contains a basis element if I don't know what open sets are yet?










share|cite|improve this question













Here is part of Munkres' book on topology:enter image description here



I suppose the reader is supposed to use



enter image description here



to prove this. But I don't understand how. The lemma says that if there is a space with a fixed topology, then to show that a set forms a basis, one has to take an open set from the fixed topology and do something. But the order topology is being defined, how can I take an open set and prove that it contains a basis element if I don't know what open sets are yet?







general-topology






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asked Aug 31 at 0:41









user531587

15710




15710











  • To step back a bit, one has a fixed topology when all the open sets are known (or, equivalently, when all of its closed sets are known). In that context we can ask whether a certain subset of the open sets do or do not constitute a basis for the topology. That's where the Lemma you cite might come into play. Given that framework, what is your Question? Merely quoting from the Munkres textbook does not fully state a problem to be solved.
    – hardmath
    Aug 31 at 0:53







  • 1




    My question is in the last sentence, I believe.
    – user531587
    Aug 31 at 1:19
















  • To step back a bit, one has a fixed topology when all the open sets are known (or, equivalently, when all of its closed sets are known). In that context we can ask whether a certain subset of the open sets do or do not constitute a basis for the topology. That's where the Lemma you cite might come into play. Given that framework, what is your Question? Merely quoting from the Munkres textbook does not fully state a problem to be solved.
    – hardmath
    Aug 31 at 0:53







  • 1




    My question is in the last sentence, I believe.
    – user531587
    Aug 31 at 1:19















To step back a bit, one has a fixed topology when all the open sets are known (or, equivalently, when all of its closed sets are known). In that context we can ask whether a certain subset of the open sets do or do not constitute a basis for the topology. That's where the Lemma you cite might come into play. Given that framework, what is your Question? Merely quoting from the Munkres textbook does not fully state a problem to be solved.
– hardmath
Aug 31 at 0:53





To step back a bit, one has a fixed topology when all the open sets are known (or, equivalently, when all of its closed sets are known). In that context we can ask whether a certain subset of the open sets do or do not constitute a basis for the topology. That's where the Lemma you cite might come into play. Given that framework, what is your Question? Merely quoting from the Munkres textbook does not fully state a problem to be solved.
– hardmath
Aug 31 at 0:53





1




1




My question is in the last sentence, I believe.
– user531587
Aug 31 at 1:19




My question is in the last sentence, I believe.
– user531587
Aug 31 at 1:19










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
1
down vote



accepted










The requirements for $mathcalBsubseteq mathscrP(X)$ to be a base for some topology on $X$ are (second edition., paragraph 13, page 78):



(1) $bigcup mathcalB = X$, or equivalently for every $x in X$ there is some $B in mathcalB$ such that $x in B$.



(2) For all $B_1, B_2 in mathcalB$, for all $x in B_1 cap B_2$: there exists some $B_3 in mathcalB$ such that $x in B_3 subseteq B_1 cap B_2$.



The lemma 13.2 is not used here: this is to characterise a base for an already given topology, while in the case at hand we want to define a topology by a suitable base.



Munkres suggests to check condition (2) by checking that the set of intervals he describes ($mathcalB$) has the property that if $B_1 , B_2 in mathcalB$ we either have $B_1 cap B_2 in mathcalB$ again (so we can take $B_3 = B_1 cap B_2$) or $emptyset$ (in which case the condition is voidly true as there are no $x in B_1 cap B_2$ to check.






share|cite|improve this answer





























    up vote
    1
    down vote













    $mathscr B$ doesn't define a topology on $X$. You need to take arbitrary unions and finite intersections of elements of $mathscr B$ to fulfill the definition of a topology.



    $mathscr B$ is a basis for the topology it generates...



    Actually, $mathscr B$ is closed under finite intersections, as Munkres notes.



    But you need to throw in arbitrary unions... $mathscr B$ isn't closed under arbitrary unions.



    Thus $mathscr B$ generates a topology on $X$.






    share|cite|improve this answer






















    • Munkres highlights a couple of things to check to be sure $mathscr B$ actually serves as a basis. Since the entire set $X$ must be open, every element $xin X$ has to belong to some set in $mathscr B$. Munkres further asks the reader to check $mathscr B$ is closed under finite intersections, as you noted. I don't have my copy of Munkres handy, but it seems likely that a different Lemma than the one the OP has identified was intended to be used.
      – hardmath
      Aug 31 at 1:42










    • Perhaps... I lost my copy of Munkres years ago. I remember it was red...
      – Chris Custer
      Aug 31 at 1:46










    • @hardmath there are useful criteria on wolfram and Wikipedia...
      – Chris Custer
      Aug 31 at 1:48










    • @hardmath You are right, I think I should use just the definition instead of the lemma. (The definition can be found in my previous question.) But it looks like the definition is obviously satisfied, so now I'm confused why Munkres says to consider a few cases and verify something, if everything looks too trivial (or I misunderstand something).
      – user531587
      Aug 31 at 2:45










    • Now I see. Not all cases are trivial. If we take $(a,b]$ and $[b,c)$, then the intersection will be a singleton. It will not contain a basis element. So it cannot be a basis, according to the definition... I must be missing something.
      – user531587
      Aug 31 at 2:58










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    2 Answers
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    2 Answers
    2






    active

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    active

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    up vote
    1
    down vote



    accepted










    The requirements for $mathcalBsubseteq mathscrP(X)$ to be a base for some topology on $X$ are (second edition., paragraph 13, page 78):



    (1) $bigcup mathcalB = X$, or equivalently for every $x in X$ there is some $B in mathcalB$ such that $x in B$.



    (2) For all $B_1, B_2 in mathcalB$, for all $x in B_1 cap B_2$: there exists some $B_3 in mathcalB$ such that $x in B_3 subseteq B_1 cap B_2$.



    The lemma 13.2 is not used here: this is to characterise a base for an already given topology, while in the case at hand we want to define a topology by a suitable base.



    Munkres suggests to check condition (2) by checking that the set of intervals he describes ($mathcalB$) has the property that if $B_1 , B_2 in mathcalB$ we either have $B_1 cap B_2 in mathcalB$ again (so we can take $B_3 = B_1 cap B_2$) or $emptyset$ (in which case the condition is voidly true as there are no $x in B_1 cap B_2$ to check.






    share|cite|improve this answer


























      up vote
      1
      down vote



      accepted










      The requirements for $mathcalBsubseteq mathscrP(X)$ to be a base for some topology on $X$ are (second edition., paragraph 13, page 78):



      (1) $bigcup mathcalB = X$, or equivalently for every $x in X$ there is some $B in mathcalB$ such that $x in B$.



      (2) For all $B_1, B_2 in mathcalB$, for all $x in B_1 cap B_2$: there exists some $B_3 in mathcalB$ such that $x in B_3 subseteq B_1 cap B_2$.



      The lemma 13.2 is not used here: this is to characterise a base for an already given topology, while in the case at hand we want to define a topology by a suitable base.



      Munkres suggests to check condition (2) by checking that the set of intervals he describes ($mathcalB$) has the property that if $B_1 , B_2 in mathcalB$ we either have $B_1 cap B_2 in mathcalB$ again (so we can take $B_3 = B_1 cap B_2$) or $emptyset$ (in which case the condition is voidly true as there are no $x in B_1 cap B_2$ to check.






      share|cite|improve this answer
























        up vote
        1
        down vote



        accepted







        up vote
        1
        down vote



        accepted






        The requirements for $mathcalBsubseteq mathscrP(X)$ to be a base for some topology on $X$ are (second edition., paragraph 13, page 78):



        (1) $bigcup mathcalB = X$, or equivalently for every $x in X$ there is some $B in mathcalB$ such that $x in B$.



        (2) For all $B_1, B_2 in mathcalB$, for all $x in B_1 cap B_2$: there exists some $B_3 in mathcalB$ such that $x in B_3 subseteq B_1 cap B_2$.



        The lemma 13.2 is not used here: this is to characterise a base for an already given topology, while in the case at hand we want to define a topology by a suitable base.



        Munkres suggests to check condition (2) by checking that the set of intervals he describes ($mathcalB$) has the property that if $B_1 , B_2 in mathcalB$ we either have $B_1 cap B_2 in mathcalB$ again (so we can take $B_3 = B_1 cap B_2$) or $emptyset$ (in which case the condition is voidly true as there are no $x in B_1 cap B_2$ to check.






        share|cite|improve this answer














        The requirements for $mathcalBsubseteq mathscrP(X)$ to be a base for some topology on $X$ are (second edition., paragraph 13, page 78):



        (1) $bigcup mathcalB = X$, or equivalently for every $x in X$ there is some $B in mathcalB$ such that $x in B$.



        (2) For all $B_1, B_2 in mathcalB$, for all $x in B_1 cap B_2$: there exists some $B_3 in mathcalB$ such that $x in B_3 subseteq B_1 cap B_2$.



        The lemma 13.2 is not used here: this is to characterise a base for an already given topology, while in the case at hand we want to define a topology by a suitable base.



        Munkres suggests to check condition (2) by checking that the set of intervals he describes ($mathcalB$) has the property that if $B_1 , B_2 in mathcalB$ we either have $B_1 cap B_2 in mathcalB$ again (so we can take $B_3 = B_1 cap B_2$) or $emptyset$ (in which case the condition is voidly true as there are no $x in B_1 cap B_2$ to check.







        share|cite|improve this answer














        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer








        edited Sep 1 at 14:20

























        answered Aug 31 at 21:36









        Henno Brandsma

        93.3k342101




        93.3k342101




















            up vote
            1
            down vote













            $mathscr B$ doesn't define a topology on $X$. You need to take arbitrary unions and finite intersections of elements of $mathscr B$ to fulfill the definition of a topology.



            $mathscr B$ is a basis for the topology it generates...



            Actually, $mathscr B$ is closed under finite intersections, as Munkres notes.



            But you need to throw in arbitrary unions... $mathscr B$ isn't closed under arbitrary unions.



            Thus $mathscr B$ generates a topology on $X$.






            share|cite|improve this answer






















            • Munkres highlights a couple of things to check to be sure $mathscr B$ actually serves as a basis. Since the entire set $X$ must be open, every element $xin X$ has to belong to some set in $mathscr B$. Munkres further asks the reader to check $mathscr B$ is closed under finite intersections, as you noted. I don't have my copy of Munkres handy, but it seems likely that a different Lemma than the one the OP has identified was intended to be used.
              – hardmath
              Aug 31 at 1:42










            • Perhaps... I lost my copy of Munkres years ago. I remember it was red...
              – Chris Custer
              Aug 31 at 1:46










            • @hardmath there are useful criteria on wolfram and Wikipedia...
              – Chris Custer
              Aug 31 at 1:48










            • @hardmath You are right, I think I should use just the definition instead of the lemma. (The definition can be found in my previous question.) But it looks like the definition is obviously satisfied, so now I'm confused why Munkres says to consider a few cases and verify something, if everything looks too trivial (or I misunderstand something).
              – user531587
              Aug 31 at 2:45










            • Now I see. Not all cases are trivial. If we take $(a,b]$ and $[b,c)$, then the intersection will be a singleton. It will not contain a basis element. So it cannot be a basis, according to the definition... I must be missing something.
              – user531587
              Aug 31 at 2:58














            up vote
            1
            down vote













            $mathscr B$ doesn't define a topology on $X$. You need to take arbitrary unions and finite intersections of elements of $mathscr B$ to fulfill the definition of a topology.



            $mathscr B$ is a basis for the topology it generates...



            Actually, $mathscr B$ is closed under finite intersections, as Munkres notes.



            But you need to throw in arbitrary unions... $mathscr B$ isn't closed under arbitrary unions.



            Thus $mathscr B$ generates a topology on $X$.






            share|cite|improve this answer






















            • Munkres highlights a couple of things to check to be sure $mathscr B$ actually serves as a basis. Since the entire set $X$ must be open, every element $xin X$ has to belong to some set in $mathscr B$. Munkres further asks the reader to check $mathscr B$ is closed under finite intersections, as you noted. I don't have my copy of Munkres handy, but it seems likely that a different Lemma than the one the OP has identified was intended to be used.
              – hardmath
              Aug 31 at 1:42










            • Perhaps... I lost my copy of Munkres years ago. I remember it was red...
              – Chris Custer
              Aug 31 at 1:46










            • @hardmath there are useful criteria on wolfram and Wikipedia...
              – Chris Custer
              Aug 31 at 1:48










            • @hardmath You are right, I think I should use just the definition instead of the lemma. (The definition can be found in my previous question.) But it looks like the definition is obviously satisfied, so now I'm confused why Munkres says to consider a few cases and verify something, if everything looks too trivial (or I misunderstand something).
              – user531587
              Aug 31 at 2:45










            • Now I see. Not all cases are trivial. If we take $(a,b]$ and $[b,c)$, then the intersection will be a singleton. It will not contain a basis element. So it cannot be a basis, according to the definition... I must be missing something.
              – user531587
              Aug 31 at 2:58












            up vote
            1
            down vote










            up vote
            1
            down vote









            $mathscr B$ doesn't define a topology on $X$. You need to take arbitrary unions and finite intersections of elements of $mathscr B$ to fulfill the definition of a topology.



            $mathscr B$ is a basis for the topology it generates...



            Actually, $mathscr B$ is closed under finite intersections, as Munkres notes.



            But you need to throw in arbitrary unions... $mathscr B$ isn't closed under arbitrary unions.



            Thus $mathscr B$ generates a topology on $X$.






            share|cite|improve this answer














            $mathscr B$ doesn't define a topology on $X$. You need to take arbitrary unions and finite intersections of elements of $mathscr B$ to fulfill the definition of a topology.



            $mathscr B$ is a basis for the topology it generates...



            Actually, $mathscr B$ is closed under finite intersections, as Munkres notes.



            But you need to throw in arbitrary unions... $mathscr B$ isn't closed under arbitrary unions.



            Thus $mathscr B$ generates a topology on $X$.







            share|cite|improve this answer














            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer








            edited Aug 31 at 1:09

























            answered Aug 31 at 0:54









            Chris Custer

            6,3472622




            6,3472622











            • Munkres highlights a couple of things to check to be sure $mathscr B$ actually serves as a basis. Since the entire set $X$ must be open, every element $xin X$ has to belong to some set in $mathscr B$. Munkres further asks the reader to check $mathscr B$ is closed under finite intersections, as you noted. I don't have my copy of Munkres handy, but it seems likely that a different Lemma than the one the OP has identified was intended to be used.
              – hardmath
              Aug 31 at 1:42










            • Perhaps... I lost my copy of Munkres years ago. I remember it was red...
              – Chris Custer
              Aug 31 at 1:46










            • @hardmath there are useful criteria on wolfram and Wikipedia...
              – Chris Custer
              Aug 31 at 1:48










            • @hardmath You are right, I think I should use just the definition instead of the lemma. (The definition can be found in my previous question.) But it looks like the definition is obviously satisfied, so now I'm confused why Munkres says to consider a few cases and verify something, if everything looks too trivial (or I misunderstand something).
              – user531587
              Aug 31 at 2:45










            • Now I see. Not all cases are trivial. If we take $(a,b]$ and $[b,c)$, then the intersection will be a singleton. It will not contain a basis element. So it cannot be a basis, according to the definition... I must be missing something.
              – user531587
              Aug 31 at 2:58
















            • Munkres highlights a couple of things to check to be sure $mathscr B$ actually serves as a basis. Since the entire set $X$ must be open, every element $xin X$ has to belong to some set in $mathscr B$. Munkres further asks the reader to check $mathscr B$ is closed under finite intersections, as you noted. I don't have my copy of Munkres handy, but it seems likely that a different Lemma than the one the OP has identified was intended to be used.
              – hardmath
              Aug 31 at 1:42










            • Perhaps... I lost my copy of Munkres years ago. I remember it was red...
              – Chris Custer
              Aug 31 at 1:46










            • @hardmath there are useful criteria on wolfram and Wikipedia...
              – Chris Custer
              Aug 31 at 1:48










            • @hardmath You are right, I think I should use just the definition instead of the lemma. (The definition can be found in my previous question.) But it looks like the definition is obviously satisfied, so now I'm confused why Munkres says to consider a few cases and verify something, if everything looks too trivial (or I misunderstand something).
              – user531587
              Aug 31 at 2:45










            • Now I see. Not all cases are trivial. If we take $(a,b]$ and $[b,c)$, then the intersection will be a singleton. It will not contain a basis element. So it cannot be a basis, according to the definition... I must be missing something.
              – user531587
              Aug 31 at 2:58















            Munkres highlights a couple of things to check to be sure $mathscr B$ actually serves as a basis. Since the entire set $X$ must be open, every element $xin X$ has to belong to some set in $mathscr B$. Munkres further asks the reader to check $mathscr B$ is closed under finite intersections, as you noted. I don't have my copy of Munkres handy, but it seems likely that a different Lemma than the one the OP has identified was intended to be used.
            – hardmath
            Aug 31 at 1:42




            Munkres highlights a couple of things to check to be sure $mathscr B$ actually serves as a basis. Since the entire set $X$ must be open, every element $xin X$ has to belong to some set in $mathscr B$. Munkres further asks the reader to check $mathscr B$ is closed under finite intersections, as you noted. I don't have my copy of Munkres handy, but it seems likely that a different Lemma than the one the OP has identified was intended to be used.
            – hardmath
            Aug 31 at 1:42












            Perhaps... I lost my copy of Munkres years ago. I remember it was red...
            – Chris Custer
            Aug 31 at 1:46




            Perhaps... I lost my copy of Munkres years ago. I remember it was red...
            – Chris Custer
            Aug 31 at 1:46












            @hardmath there are useful criteria on wolfram and Wikipedia...
            – Chris Custer
            Aug 31 at 1:48




            @hardmath there are useful criteria on wolfram and Wikipedia...
            – Chris Custer
            Aug 31 at 1:48












            @hardmath You are right, I think I should use just the definition instead of the lemma. (The definition can be found in my previous question.) But it looks like the definition is obviously satisfied, so now I'm confused why Munkres says to consider a few cases and verify something, if everything looks too trivial (or I misunderstand something).
            – user531587
            Aug 31 at 2:45




            @hardmath You are right, I think I should use just the definition instead of the lemma. (The definition can be found in my previous question.) But it looks like the definition is obviously satisfied, so now I'm confused why Munkres says to consider a few cases and verify something, if everything looks too trivial (or I misunderstand something).
            – user531587
            Aug 31 at 2:45












            Now I see. Not all cases are trivial. If we take $(a,b]$ and $[b,c)$, then the intersection will be a singleton. It will not contain a basis element. So it cannot be a basis, according to the definition... I must be missing something.
            – user531587
            Aug 31 at 2:58




            Now I see. Not all cases are trivial. If we take $(a,b]$ and $[b,c)$, then the intersection will be a singleton. It will not contain a basis element. So it cannot be a basis, according to the definition... I must be missing something.
            – user531587
            Aug 31 at 2:58

















             

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