Understanding what the sigma-field should be in dice-experiment

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I'm new at measure theory and would like some guidance on how to solve this (probably very easy) task:



Throw a fair dice twice. We have the following information of a given outcome: "Two sixes";"Exactly one six"; "No sixes".
Describe the probability space ($Omega$,$mathcalF$,$textbfP$) that corresponds to this information.
Also give all $mathcalF$-measurable functions
$X:Omegarightarrow-1,1,2,3,...$ med $E(X)=0$,
corresponding to a fair game.



My thoughts so far:



The sample space should contain all the "pairs" of dices, where the order is not relevant: $Omega=(1,1),(1,2),(1,3),(1,4),(1,5),(1,6),(2,2),(2,3),(2,4),(2,5),(2,6),(3,3),(3,4),(3,5),(3,6),(4,4),(4,5),(4,6),(5,5),(5,6),(6,6)$
I'm having troubles to understand what the $sigma$-field $mathcalF$ should be.
I thought that I should include all the three events described, but then it's not a $sigma$-field. What am I doing wrong?
$mathcalF=emptyset,(6,6),(6,1),...(6,6),(1,1),...,(5,5),Omega$










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  • 1




    In an experiment with only finitely many outcomes, it is normal to let $cal F$ be the collection of all subsets of $Omega$, i.e. $mathcalP(Omega)$.
    – Lord Shark the Unknown
    Sep 9 at 8:41














up vote
1
down vote

favorite












I'm new at measure theory and would like some guidance on how to solve this (probably very easy) task:



Throw a fair dice twice. We have the following information of a given outcome: "Two sixes";"Exactly one six"; "No sixes".
Describe the probability space ($Omega$,$mathcalF$,$textbfP$) that corresponds to this information.
Also give all $mathcalF$-measurable functions
$X:Omegarightarrow-1,1,2,3,...$ med $E(X)=0$,
corresponding to a fair game.



My thoughts so far:



The sample space should contain all the "pairs" of dices, where the order is not relevant: $Omega=(1,1),(1,2),(1,3),(1,4),(1,5),(1,6),(2,2),(2,3),(2,4),(2,5),(2,6),(3,3),(3,4),(3,5),(3,6),(4,4),(4,5),(4,6),(5,5),(5,6),(6,6)$
I'm having troubles to understand what the $sigma$-field $mathcalF$ should be.
I thought that I should include all the three events described, but then it's not a $sigma$-field. What am I doing wrong?
$mathcalF=emptyset,(6,6),(6,1),...(6,6),(1,1),...,(5,5),Omega$










share|cite|improve this question

















  • 1




    In an experiment with only finitely many outcomes, it is normal to let $cal F$ be the collection of all subsets of $Omega$, i.e. $mathcalP(Omega)$.
    – Lord Shark the Unknown
    Sep 9 at 8:41












up vote
1
down vote

favorite









up vote
1
down vote

favorite











I'm new at measure theory and would like some guidance on how to solve this (probably very easy) task:



Throw a fair dice twice. We have the following information of a given outcome: "Two sixes";"Exactly one six"; "No sixes".
Describe the probability space ($Omega$,$mathcalF$,$textbfP$) that corresponds to this information.
Also give all $mathcalF$-measurable functions
$X:Omegarightarrow-1,1,2,3,...$ med $E(X)=0$,
corresponding to a fair game.



My thoughts so far:



The sample space should contain all the "pairs" of dices, where the order is not relevant: $Omega=(1,1),(1,2),(1,3),(1,4),(1,5),(1,6),(2,2),(2,3),(2,4),(2,5),(2,6),(3,3),(3,4),(3,5),(3,6),(4,4),(4,5),(4,6),(5,5),(5,6),(6,6)$
I'm having troubles to understand what the $sigma$-field $mathcalF$ should be.
I thought that I should include all the three events described, but then it's not a $sigma$-field. What am I doing wrong?
$mathcalF=emptyset,(6,6),(6,1),...(6,6),(1,1),...,(5,5),Omega$










share|cite|improve this question













I'm new at measure theory and would like some guidance on how to solve this (probably very easy) task:



Throw a fair dice twice. We have the following information of a given outcome: "Two sixes";"Exactly one six"; "No sixes".
Describe the probability space ($Omega$,$mathcalF$,$textbfP$) that corresponds to this information.
Also give all $mathcalF$-measurable functions
$X:Omegarightarrow-1,1,2,3,...$ med $E(X)=0$,
corresponding to a fair game.



My thoughts so far:



The sample space should contain all the "pairs" of dices, where the order is not relevant: $Omega=(1,1),(1,2),(1,3),(1,4),(1,5),(1,6),(2,2),(2,3),(2,4),(2,5),(2,6),(3,3),(3,4),(3,5),(3,6),(4,4),(4,5),(4,6),(5,5),(5,6),(6,6)$
I'm having troubles to understand what the $sigma$-field $mathcalF$ should be.
I thought that I should include all the three events described, but then it's not a $sigma$-field. What am I doing wrong?
$mathcalF=emptyset,(6,6),(6,1),...(6,6),(1,1),...,(5,5),Omega$







measure-theory






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asked Sep 9 at 8:31









AnnieFrannie

166




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  • 1




    In an experiment with only finitely many outcomes, it is normal to let $cal F$ be the collection of all subsets of $Omega$, i.e. $mathcalP(Omega)$.
    – Lord Shark the Unknown
    Sep 9 at 8:41












  • 1




    In an experiment with only finitely many outcomes, it is normal to let $cal F$ be the collection of all subsets of $Omega$, i.e. $mathcalP(Omega)$.
    – Lord Shark the Unknown
    Sep 9 at 8:41







1




1




In an experiment with only finitely many outcomes, it is normal to let $cal F$ be the collection of all subsets of $Omega$, i.e. $mathcalP(Omega)$.
– Lord Shark the Unknown
Sep 9 at 8:41




In an experiment with only finitely many outcomes, it is normal to let $cal F$ be the collection of all subsets of $Omega$, i.e. $mathcalP(Omega)$.
– Lord Shark the Unknown
Sep 9 at 8:41










1 Answer
1






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oldest

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up vote
0
down vote



accepted










I suspect that you are used to finite outcome spaces $Omega$ where the outcomes are equiprobable.



This answer shows you that it can be done differently.



If I understand well then only the number of sixes is involved, and this number takes values in $0,1,2$.



Then it is actually enough to go for $Omega=0,1,2$ equipped with $sigma$-algebra $mathcal F=wp(Omega)$.



It remains to define the probability measure $mathbf P:wp(Omega)tomathbb R$.



Based on the fact that the die is fair we find easily that:



  • $mathbf P(0)=frac56frac56=frac2536$

  • $mathbf P(2)=frac16frac16=frac136$

  • $mathbf P(1)=frac56frac16+frac16frac56=frac1036$

This determines $mathbf P$ completely for every event $Ainmathcal F$ by:$$mathbf P(A)=sum_ain Amathbf P(a)$$



Further every function $X:Omegatomathbb R$ is $mathcal F$-measurable (as is always the case if the chosen $sigma$-algebra is the powerset of $Omega$).



Advantage of the constructed probability space is that only relevant information is contained. More concise is not even possible.






share|cite|improve this answer




















  • So what does $mathcalF$ look like in this case? I mean, shouldn't it contain all the subsets of $Omega$? But then, what meaning does $0,2$ have in this case, how does that describe the probability space?
    – AnnieFrannie
    Sep 9 at 9:15










  • $mathcal F$ is indeed the collection of all subsets of $Omega$. Notation for that $mathcal F=wp(Omega)$. Event $0,2$ "occurs" if the number of sixes that is thrown is an even number. What do you mean with: "how does that describe the probability space?"?
    – drhab
    Sep 9 at 9:20










  • Ok, now I get it, I was thinking about it from the wrong angle. I have one more question though. You wrote that every function is $mathcalF$-measurable if the chosen $sigma$-algebra is the powerset of $Omega$). Lets say that we have $Omega=0,1,2$ but we are only interested in the events of "two sixes" and "no sixes", does that mean that $mathcalF=emptyset,Omega,0,2,0,2$ and that only functions X that takes values 0 or 2 are $mathcalF$-measurable?
    – AnnieFrannie
    Sep 9 at 10:02











  • Focusing on only an even number of sixes does not affect the probability space. It can still be used, but then it contains some extra information. If you want to avoid that then it is possible to build a new one then with $Omega=0,2$, $mathcal F=varnothing,0,2,0,2$, $mathbf P(0)=frac2526$ and $mathbf P(2)=frac126$. Note that here $P(0)+P(2)=1$ (as it should) and note that the probabilities $P(0)$ and $P(2)$ have the same ratio as in the original space.
    – drhab
    Sep 9 at 10:21











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1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes








1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes








up vote
0
down vote



accepted










I suspect that you are used to finite outcome spaces $Omega$ where the outcomes are equiprobable.



This answer shows you that it can be done differently.



If I understand well then only the number of sixes is involved, and this number takes values in $0,1,2$.



Then it is actually enough to go for $Omega=0,1,2$ equipped with $sigma$-algebra $mathcal F=wp(Omega)$.



It remains to define the probability measure $mathbf P:wp(Omega)tomathbb R$.



Based on the fact that the die is fair we find easily that:



  • $mathbf P(0)=frac56frac56=frac2536$

  • $mathbf P(2)=frac16frac16=frac136$

  • $mathbf P(1)=frac56frac16+frac16frac56=frac1036$

This determines $mathbf P$ completely for every event $Ainmathcal F$ by:$$mathbf P(A)=sum_ain Amathbf P(a)$$



Further every function $X:Omegatomathbb R$ is $mathcal F$-measurable (as is always the case if the chosen $sigma$-algebra is the powerset of $Omega$).



Advantage of the constructed probability space is that only relevant information is contained. More concise is not even possible.






share|cite|improve this answer




















  • So what does $mathcalF$ look like in this case? I mean, shouldn't it contain all the subsets of $Omega$? But then, what meaning does $0,2$ have in this case, how does that describe the probability space?
    – AnnieFrannie
    Sep 9 at 9:15










  • $mathcal F$ is indeed the collection of all subsets of $Omega$. Notation for that $mathcal F=wp(Omega)$. Event $0,2$ "occurs" if the number of sixes that is thrown is an even number. What do you mean with: "how does that describe the probability space?"?
    – drhab
    Sep 9 at 9:20










  • Ok, now I get it, I was thinking about it from the wrong angle. I have one more question though. You wrote that every function is $mathcalF$-measurable if the chosen $sigma$-algebra is the powerset of $Omega$). Lets say that we have $Omega=0,1,2$ but we are only interested in the events of "two sixes" and "no sixes", does that mean that $mathcalF=emptyset,Omega,0,2,0,2$ and that only functions X that takes values 0 or 2 are $mathcalF$-measurable?
    – AnnieFrannie
    Sep 9 at 10:02











  • Focusing on only an even number of sixes does not affect the probability space. It can still be used, but then it contains some extra information. If you want to avoid that then it is possible to build a new one then with $Omega=0,2$, $mathcal F=varnothing,0,2,0,2$, $mathbf P(0)=frac2526$ and $mathbf P(2)=frac126$. Note that here $P(0)+P(2)=1$ (as it should) and note that the probabilities $P(0)$ and $P(2)$ have the same ratio as in the original space.
    – drhab
    Sep 9 at 10:21















up vote
0
down vote



accepted










I suspect that you are used to finite outcome spaces $Omega$ where the outcomes are equiprobable.



This answer shows you that it can be done differently.



If I understand well then only the number of sixes is involved, and this number takes values in $0,1,2$.



Then it is actually enough to go for $Omega=0,1,2$ equipped with $sigma$-algebra $mathcal F=wp(Omega)$.



It remains to define the probability measure $mathbf P:wp(Omega)tomathbb R$.



Based on the fact that the die is fair we find easily that:



  • $mathbf P(0)=frac56frac56=frac2536$

  • $mathbf P(2)=frac16frac16=frac136$

  • $mathbf P(1)=frac56frac16+frac16frac56=frac1036$

This determines $mathbf P$ completely for every event $Ainmathcal F$ by:$$mathbf P(A)=sum_ain Amathbf P(a)$$



Further every function $X:Omegatomathbb R$ is $mathcal F$-measurable (as is always the case if the chosen $sigma$-algebra is the powerset of $Omega$).



Advantage of the constructed probability space is that only relevant information is contained. More concise is not even possible.






share|cite|improve this answer




















  • So what does $mathcalF$ look like in this case? I mean, shouldn't it contain all the subsets of $Omega$? But then, what meaning does $0,2$ have in this case, how does that describe the probability space?
    – AnnieFrannie
    Sep 9 at 9:15










  • $mathcal F$ is indeed the collection of all subsets of $Omega$. Notation for that $mathcal F=wp(Omega)$. Event $0,2$ "occurs" if the number of sixes that is thrown is an even number. What do you mean with: "how does that describe the probability space?"?
    – drhab
    Sep 9 at 9:20










  • Ok, now I get it, I was thinking about it from the wrong angle. I have one more question though. You wrote that every function is $mathcalF$-measurable if the chosen $sigma$-algebra is the powerset of $Omega$). Lets say that we have $Omega=0,1,2$ but we are only interested in the events of "two sixes" and "no sixes", does that mean that $mathcalF=emptyset,Omega,0,2,0,2$ and that only functions X that takes values 0 or 2 are $mathcalF$-measurable?
    – AnnieFrannie
    Sep 9 at 10:02











  • Focusing on only an even number of sixes does not affect the probability space. It can still be used, but then it contains some extra information. If you want to avoid that then it is possible to build a new one then with $Omega=0,2$, $mathcal F=varnothing,0,2,0,2$, $mathbf P(0)=frac2526$ and $mathbf P(2)=frac126$. Note that here $P(0)+P(2)=1$ (as it should) and note that the probabilities $P(0)$ and $P(2)$ have the same ratio as in the original space.
    – drhab
    Sep 9 at 10:21













up vote
0
down vote



accepted







up vote
0
down vote



accepted






I suspect that you are used to finite outcome spaces $Omega$ where the outcomes are equiprobable.



This answer shows you that it can be done differently.



If I understand well then only the number of sixes is involved, and this number takes values in $0,1,2$.



Then it is actually enough to go for $Omega=0,1,2$ equipped with $sigma$-algebra $mathcal F=wp(Omega)$.



It remains to define the probability measure $mathbf P:wp(Omega)tomathbb R$.



Based on the fact that the die is fair we find easily that:



  • $mathbf P(0)=frac56frac56=frac2536$

  • $mathbf P(2)=frac16frac16=frac136$

  • $mathbf P(1)=frac56frac16+frac16frac56=frac1036$

This determines $mathbf P$ completely for every event $Ainmathcal F$ by:$$mathbf P(A)=sum_ain Amathbf P(a)$$



Further every function $X:Omegatomathbb R$ is $mathcal F$-measurable (as is always the case if the chosen $sigma$-algebra is the powerset of $Omega$).



Advantage of the constructed probability space is that only relevant information is contained. More concise is not even possible.






share|cite|improve this answer












I suspect that you are used to finite outcome spaces $Omega$ where the outcomes are equiprobable.



This answer shows you that it can be done differently.



If I understand well then only the number of sixes is involved, and this number takes values in $0,1,2$.



Then it is actually enough to go for $Omega=0,1,2$ equipped with $sigma$-algebra $mathcal F=wp(Omega)$.



It remains to define the probability measure $mathbf P:wp(Omega)tomathbb R$.



Based on the fact that the die is fair we find easily that:



  • $mathbf P(0)=frac56frac56=frac2536$

  • $mathbf P(2)=frac16frac16=frac136$

  • $mathbf P(1)=frac56frac16+frac16frac56=frac1036$

This determines $mathbf P$ completely for every event $Ainmathcal F$ by:$$mathbf P(A)=sum_ain Amathbf P(a)$$



Further every function $X:Omegatomathbb R$ is $mathcal F$-measurable (as is always the case if the chosen $sigma$-algebra is the powerset of $Omega$).



Advantage of the constructed probability space is that only relevant information is contained. More concise is not even possible.







share|cite|improve this answer












share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer










answered Sep 9 at 9:02









drhab

89.3k541123




89.3k541123











  • So what does $mathcalF$ look like in this case? I mean, shouldn't it contain all the subsets of $Omega$? But then, what meaning does $0,2$ have in this case, how does that describe the probability space?
    – AnnieFrannie
    Sep 9 at 9:15










  • $mathcal F$ is indeed the collection of all subsets of $Omega$. Notation for that $mathcal F=wp(Omega)$. Event $0,2$ "occurs" if the number of sixes that is thrown is an even number. What do you mean with: "how does that describe the probability space?"?
    – drhab
    Sep 9 at 9:20










  • Ok, now I get it, I was thinking about it from the wrong angle. I have one more question though. You wrote that every function is $mathcalF$-measurable if the chosen $sigma$-algebra is the powerset of $Omega$). Lets say that we have $Omega=0,1,2$ but we are only interested in the events of "two sixes" and "no sixes", does that mean that $mathcalF=emptyset,Omega,0,2,0,2$ and that only functions X that takes values 0 or 2 are $mathcalF$-measurable?
    – AnnieFrannie
    Sep 9 at 10:02











  • Focusing on only an even number of sixes does not affect the probability space. It can still be used, but then it contains some extra information. If you want to avoid that then it is possible to build a new one then with $Omega=0,2$, $mathcal F=varnothing,0,2,0,2$, $mathbf P(0)=frac2526$ and $mathbf P(2)=frac126$. Note that here $P(0)+P(2)=1$ (as it should) and note that the probabilities $P(0)$ and $P(2)$ have the same ratio as in the original space.
    – drhab
    Sep 9 at 10:21

















  • So what does $mathcalF$ look like in this case? I mean, shouldn't it contain all the subsets of $Omega$? But then, what meaning does $0,2$ have in this case, how does that describe the probability space?
    – AnnieFrannie
    Sep 9 at 9:15










  • $mathcal F$ is indeed the collection of all subsets of $Omega$. Notation for that $mathcal F=wp(Omega)$. Event $0,2$ "occurs" if the number of sixes that is thrown is an even number. What do you mean with: "how does that describe the probability space?"?
    – drhab
    Sep 9 at 9:20










  • Ok, now I get it, I was thinking about it from the wrong angle. I have one more question though. You wrote that every function is $mathcalF$-measurable if the chosen $sigma$-algebra is the powerset of $Omega$). Lets say that we have $Omega=0,1,2$ but we are only interested in the events of "two sixes" and "no sixes", does that mean that $mathcalF=emptyset,Omega,0,2,0,2$ and that only functions X that takes values 0 or 2 are $mathcalF$-measurable?
    – AnnieFrannie
    Sep 9 at 10:02











  • Focusing on only an even number of sixes does not affect the probability space. It can still be used, but then it contains some extra information. If you want to avoid that then it is possible to build a new one then with $Omega=0,2$, $mathcal F=varnothing,0,2,0,2$, $mathbf P(0)=frac2526$ and $mathbf P(2)=frac126$. Note that here $P(0)+P(2)=1$ (as it should) and note that the probabilities $P(0)$ and $P(2)$ have the same ratio as in the original space.
    – drhab
    Sep 9 at 10:21
















So what does $mathcalF$ look like in this case? I mean, shouldn't it contain all the subsets of $Omega$? But then, what meaning does $0,2$ have in this case, how does that describe the probability space?
– AnnieFrannie
Sep 9 at 9:15




So what does $mathcalF$ look like in this case? I mean, shouldn't it contain all the subsets of $Omega$? But then, what meaning does $0,2$ have in this case, how does that describe the probability space?
– AnnieFrannie
Sep 9 at 9:15












$mathcal F$ is indeed the collection of all subsets of $Omega$. Notation for that $mathcal F=wp(Omega)$. Event $0,2$ "occurs" if the number of sixes that is thrown is an even number. What do you mean with: "how does that describe the probability space?"?
– drhab
Sep 9 at 9:20




$mathcal F$ is indeed the collection of all subsets of $Omega$. Notation for that $mathcal F=wp(Omega)$. Event $0,2$ "occurs" if the number of sixes that is thrown is an even number. What do you mean with: "how does that describe the probability space?"?
– drhab
Sep 9 at 9:20












Ok, now I get it, I was thinking about it from the wrong angle. I have one more question though. You wrote that every function is $mathcalF$-measurable if the chosen $sigma$-algebra is the powerset of $Omega$). Lets say that we have $Omega=0,1,2$ but we are only interested in the events of "two sixes" and "no sixes", does that mean that $mathcalF=emptyset,Omega,0,2,0,2$ and that only functions X that takes values 0 or 2 are $mathcalF$-measurable?
– AnnieFrannie
Sep 9 at 10:02





Ok, now I get it, I was thinking about it from the wrong angle. I have one more question though. You wrote that every function is $mathcalF$-measurable if the chosen $sigma$-algebra is the powerset of $Omega$). Lets say that we have $Omega=0,1,2$ but we are only interested in the events of "two sixes" and "no sixes", does that mean that $mathcalF=emptyset,Omega,0,2,0,2$ and that only functions X that takes values 0 or 2 are $mathcalF$-measurable?
– AnnieFrannie
Sep 9 at 10:02













Focusing on only an even number of sixes does not affect the probability space. It can still be used, but then it contains some extra information. If you want to avoid that then it is possible to build a new one then with $Omega=0,2$, $mathcal F=varnothing,0,2,0,2$, $mathbf P(0)=frac2526$ and $mathbf P(2)=frac126$. Note that here $P(0)+P(2)=1$ (as it should) and note that the probabilities $P(0)$ and $P(2)$ have the same ratio as in the original space.
– drhab
Sep 9 at 10:21





Focusing on only an even number of sixes does not affect the probability space. It can still be used, but then it contains some extra information. If you want to avoid that then it is possible to build a new one then with $Omega=0,2$, $mathcal F=varnothing,0,2,0,2$, $mathbf P(0)=frac2526$ and $mathbf P(2)=frac126$. Note that here $P(0)+P(2)=1$ (as it should) and note that the probabilities $P(0)$ and $P(2)$ have the same ratio as in the original space.
– drhab
Sep 9 at 10:21


















 

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