The minimal size of generating set of quotient group

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True or false: Let $G$ be a finite group, and we'll denote $d(G)$ as the minimal size of the generating set of $G$. Let $Q$ be a quotient map of $G$, so it than it must be that $d(Q) le d(G)$.




I believe that it is false - For abelian groups $G$ and subgroup $Hle G$, it is known that always $d(H) le d(G)$. But for non abelian, it isn't always true -for example, $S_n$, and a subgroup of $S_n$ that is isomorphic to $H = mathbbZ_2 times mathbbZ_2 times mathbbZ_2 $, have $d(S_n) = 2$ but $d(H) = 3$.



So my idea was to use that example ( $S_n$ and $H$), and the quotient group of that subgroup. But I'm not sure how to prove it formally?(Assuming it is correct).










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    True or false: Let $G$ be a finite group, and we'll denote $d(G)$ as the minimal size of the generating set of $G$. Let $Q$ be a quotient map of $G$, so it than it must be that $d(Q) le d(G)$.




    I believe that it is false - For abelian groups $G$ and subgroup $Hle G$, it is known that always $d(H) le d(G)$. But for non abelian, it isn't always true -for example, $S_n$, and a subgroup of $S_n$ that is isomorphic to $H = mathbbZ_2 times mathbbZ_2 times mathbbZ_2 $, have $d(S_n) = 2$ but $d(H) = 3$.



    So my idea was to use that example ( $S_n$ and $H$), and the quotient group of that subgroup. But I'm not sure how to prove it formally?(Assuming it is correct).










    share|cite|improve this question























      up vote
      2
      down vote

      favorite









      up vote
      2
      down vote

      favorite












      True or false: Let $G$ be a finite group, and we'll denote $d(G)$ as the minimal size of the generating set of $G$. Let $Q$ be a quotient map of $G$, so it than it must be that $d(Q) le d(G)$.




      I believe that it is false - For abelian groups $G$ and subgroup $Hle G$, it is known that always $d(H) le d(G)$. But for non abelian, it isn't always true -for example, $S_n$, and a subgroup of $S_n$ that is isomorphic to $H = mathbbZ_2 times mathbbZ_2 times mathbbZ_2 $, have $d(S_n) = 2$ but $d(H) = 3$.



      So my idea was to use that example ( $S_n$ and $H$), and the quotient group of that subgroup. But I'm not sure how to prove it formally?(Assuming it is correct).










      share|cite|improve this question














      True or false: Let $G$ be a finite group, and we'll denote $d(G)$ as the minimal size of the generating set of $G$. Let $Q$ be a quotient map of $G$, so it than it must be that $d(Q) le d(G)$.




      I believe that it is false - For abelian groups $G$ and subgroup $Hle G$, it is known that always $d(H) le d(G)$. But for non abelian, it isn't always true -for example, $S_n$, and a subgroup of $S_n$ that is isomorphic to $H = mathbbZ_2 times mathbbZ_2 times mathbbZ_2 $, have $d(S_n) = 2$ but $d(H) = 3$.



      So my idea was to use that example ( $S_n$ and $H$), and the quotient group of that subgroup. But I'm not sure how to prove it formally?(Assuming it is correct).







      group-theory abelian-groups quotient-group






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      asked Sep 9 at 14:07









      ChikChak

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          Assume that $g_1,ldots,g_n$ is a generating set for $G$ of the minimal size. If $Q$ is a quotient group $G/H$ for $Htriangleleft G$, note that $g_1H,ldots,g_nH$ is a generating set for $Q$. Indeed, for every $xin G$ you can write $x=s_1ldots s_m$ where each $s_jin g_i, g_i^-1mid 1leq ileq n$, so $xH=(s_1H)ldots(s_mH)$ and each $s_jHing_iH,g_i^-1Hmid 1leq ileq n$. So the minimal size of a generating set for $Q$, $d(Q)$, is less or equal to $n=d(G)$.






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            Strong hint: Let $G=langle g_1,ldots,g_drangle$ where $d=d(G)$. If $Q=G/N$ then what is $langle g_1N,ldots,g_dNrangle$ (as a subgroup of $Q$)?



            Your mistake is that $H$ is a subgroup not a quotient.






            share|cite|improve this answer




















            • $langle g_1N,ldots,g_dNrangle$ is exactly $Q$?
              – ChikChak
              Sep 9 at 16:44






            • 1




              yes and that gives you an upper bound on $d(Q)$
              – Robert Chamberlain
              Sep 9 at 16:49










            • Is this an answer or a hint?
              – Seub
              Sep 9 at 20:29






            • 1




              It is a hint from which I hope the reader is able to work out a more full answer themselves. This is not unusual for questions which look like undergraduate exercises as hints are often more helpful than a compete answer. I'm happy to give more detail to anyone who would like it
              – Robert Chamberlain
              Sep 9 at 20:36










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            2 Answers
            2






            active

            oldest

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            2 Answers
            2






            active

            oldest

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            active

            oldest

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            active

            oldest

            votes








            up vote
            3
            down vote



            accepted










            Assume that $g_1,ldots,g_n$ is a generating set for $G$ of the minimal size. If $Q$ is a quotient group $G/H$ for $Htriangleleft G$, note that $g_1H,ldots,g_nH$ is a generating set for $Q$. Indeed, for every $xin G$ you can write $x=s_1ldots s_m$ where each $s_jin g_i, g_i^-1mid 1leq ileq n$, so $xH=(s_1H)ldots(s_mH)$ and each $s_jHing_iH,g_i^-1Hmid 1leq ileq n$. So the minimal size of a generating set for $Q$, $d(Q)$, is less or equal to $n=d(G)$.






            share|cite|improve this answer
























              up vote
              3
              down vote



              accepted










              Assume that $g_1,ldots,g_n$ is a generating set for $G$ of the minimal size. If $Q$ is a quotient group $G/H$ for $Htriangleleft G$, note that $g_1H,ldots,g_nH$ is a generating set for $Q$. Indeed, for every $xin G$ you can write $x=s_1ldots s_m$ where each $s_jin g_i, g_i^-1mid 1leq ileq n$, so $xH=(s_1H)ldots(s_mH)$ and each $s_jHing_iH,g_i^-1Hmid 1leq ileq n$. So the minimal size of a generating set for $Q$, $d(Q)$, is less or equal to $n=d(G)$.






              share|cite|improve this answer






















                up vote
                3
                down vote



                accepted







                up vote
                3
                down vote



                accepted






                Assume that $g_1,ldots,g_n$ is a generating set for $G$ of the minimal size. If $Q$ is a quotient group $G/H$ for $Htriangleleft G$, note that $g_1H,ldots,g_nH$ is a generating set for $Q$. Indeed, for every $xin G$ you can write $x=s_1ldots s_m$ where each $s_jin g_i, g_i^-1mid 1leq ileq n$, so $xH=(s_1H)ldots(s_mH)$ and each $s_jHing_iH,g_i^-1Hmid 1leq ileq n$. So the minimal size of a generating set for $Q$, $d(Q)$, is less or equal to $n=d(G)$.






                share|cite|improve this answer












                Assume that $g_1,ldots,g_n$ is a generating set for $G$ of the minimal size. If $Q$ is a quotient group $G/H$ for $Htriangleleft G$, note that $g_1H,ldots,g_nH$ is a generating set for $Q$. Indeed, for every $xin G$ you can write $x=s_1ldots s_m$ where each $s_jin g_i, g_i^-1mid 1leq ileq n$, so $xH=(s_1H)ldots(s_mH)$ and each $s_jHing_iH,g_i^-1Hmid 1leq ileq n$. So the minimal size of a generating set for $Q$, $d(Q)$, is less or equal to $n=d(G)$.







                share|cite|improve this answer












                share|cite|improve this answer



                share|cite|improve this answer










                answered Sep 9 at 14:31









                SMM

                2,03049




                2,03049




















                    up vote
                    3
                    down vote













                    Strong hint: Let $G=langle g_1,ldots,g_drangle$ where $d=d(G)$. If $Q=G/N$ then what is $langle g_1N,ldots,g_dNrangle$ (as a subgroup of $Q$)?



                    Your mistake is that $H$ is a subgroup not a quotient.






                    share|cite|improve this answer




















                    • $langle g_1N,ldots,g_dNrangle$ is exactly $Q$?
                      – ChikChak
                      Sep 9 at 16:44






                    • 1




                      yes and that gives you an upper bound on $d(Q)$
                      – Robert Chamberlain
                      Sep 9 at 16:49










                    • Is this an answer or a hint?
                      – Seub
                      Sep 9 at 20:29






                    • 1




                      It is a hint from which I hope the reader is able to work out a more full answer themselves. This is not unusual for questions which look like undergraduate exercises as hints are often more helpful than a compete answer. I'm happy to give more detail to anyone who would like it
                      – Robert Chamberlain
                      Sep 9 at 20:36














                    up vote
                    3
                    down vote













                    Strong hint: Let $G=langle g_1,ldots,g_drangle$ where $d=d(G)$. If $Q=G/N$ then what is $langle g_1N,ldots,g_dNrangle$ (as a subgroup of $Q$)?



                    Your mistake is that $H$ is a subgroup not a quotient.






                    share|cite|improve this answer




















                    • $langle g_1N,ldots,g_dNrangle$ is exactly $Q$?
                      – ChikChak
                      Sep 9 at 16:44






                    • 1




                      yes and that gives you an upper bound on $d(Q)$
                      – Robert Chamberlain
                      Sep 9 at 16:49










                    • Is this an answer or a hint?
                      – Seub
                      Sep 9 at 20:29






                    • 1




                      It is a hint from which I hope the reader is able to work out a more full answer themselves. This is not unusual for questions which look like undergraduate exercises as hints are often more helpful than a compete answer. I'm happy to give more detail to anyone who would like it
                      – Robert Chamberlain
                      Sep 9 at 20:36












                    up vote
                    3
                    down vote










                    up vote
                    3
                    down vote









                    Strong hint: Let $G=langle g_1,ldots,g_drangle$ where $d=d(G)$. If $Q=G/N$ then what is $langle g_1N,ldots,g_dNrangle$ (as a subgroup of $Q$)?



                    Your mistake is that $H$ is a subgroup not a quotient.






                    share|cite|improve this answer












                    Strong hint: Let $G=langle g_1,ldots,g_drangle$ where $d=d(G)$. If $Q=G/N$ then what is $langle g_1N,ldots,g_dNrangle$ (as a subgroup of $Q$)?



                    Your mistake is that $H$ is a subgroup not a quotient.







                    share|cite|improve this answer












                    share|cite|improve this answer



                    share|cite|improve this answer










                    answered Sep 9 at 14:32









                    Robert Chamberlain

                    3,9301421




                    3,9301421











                    • $langle g_1N,ldots,g_dNrangle$ is exactly $Q$?
                      – ChikChak
                      Sep 9 at 16:44






                    • 1




                      yes and that gives you an upper bound on $d(Q)$
                      – Robert Chamberlain
                      Sep 9 at 16:49










                    • Is this an answer or a hint?
                      – Seub
                      Sep 9 at 20:29






                    • 1




                      It is a hint from which I hope the reader is able to work out a more full answer themselves. This is not unusual for questions which look like undergraduate exercises as hints are often more helpful than a compete answer. I'm happy to give more detail to anyone who would like it
                      – Robert Chamberlain
                      Sep 9 at 20:36
















                    • $langle g_1N,ldots,g_dNrangle$ is exactly $Q$?
                      – ChikChak
                      Sep 9 at 16:44






                    • 1




                      yes and that gives you an upper bound on $d(Q)$
                      – Robert Chamberlain
                      Sep 9 at 16:49










                    • Is this an answer or a hint?
                      – Seub
                      Sep 9 at 20:29






                    • 1




                      It is a hint from which I hope the reader is able to work out a more full answer themselves. This is not unusual for questions which look like undergraduate exercises as hints are often more helpful than a compete answer. I'm happy to give more detail to anyone who would like it
                      – Robert Chamberlain
                      Sep 9 at 20:36















                    $langle g_1N,ldots,g_dNrangle$ is exactly $Q$?
                    – ChikChak
                    Sep 9 at 16:44




                    $langle g_1N,ldots,g_dNrangle$ is exactly $Q$?
                    – ChikChak
                    Sep 9 at 16:44




                    1




                    1




                    yes and that gives you an upper bound on $d(Q)$
                    – Robert Chamberlain
                    Sep 9 at 16:49




                    yes and that gives you an upper bound on $d(Q)$
                    – Robert Chamberlain
                    Sep 9 at 16:49












                    Is this an answer or a hint?
                    – Seub
                    Sep 9 at 20:29




                    Is this an answer or a hint?
                    – Seub
                    Sep 9 at 20:29




                    1




                    1




                    It is a hint from which I hope the reader is able to work out a more full answer themselves. This is not unusual for questions which look like undergraduate exercises as hints are often more helpful than a compete answer. I'm happy to give more detail to anyone who would like it
                    – Robert Chamberlain
                    Sep 9 at 20:36




                    It is a hint from which I hope the reader is able to work out a more full answer themselves. This is not unusual for questions which look like undergraduate exercises as hints are often more helpful than a compete answer. I'm happy to give more detail to anyone who would like it
                    – Robert Chamberlain
                    Sep 9 at 20:36

















                     

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