The minimal size of generating set of quotient group
Clash Royale CLAN TAG#URR8PPP
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True or false: Let $G$ be a finite group, and we'll denote $d(G)$ as the minimal size of the generating set of $G$. Let $Q$ be a quotient map of $G$, so it than it must be that $d(Q) le d(G)$.
I believe that it is false - For abelian groups $G$ and subgroup $Hle G$, it is known that always $d(H) le d(G)$. But for non abelian, it isn't always true -for example, $S_n$, and a subgroup of $S_n$ that is isomorphic to $H = mathbbZ_2 times mathbbZ_2 times mathbbZ_2 $, have $d(S_n) = 2$ but $d(H) = 3$.
So my idea was to use that example ( $S_n$ and $H$), and the quotient group of that subgroup. But I'm not sure how to prove it formally?(Assuming it is correct).
group-theory abelian-groups quotient-group
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True or false: Let $G$ be a finite group, and we'll denote $d(G)$ as the minimal size of the generating set of $G$. Let $Q$ be a quotient map of $G$, so it than it must be that $d(Q) le d(G)$.
I believe that it is false - For abelian groups $G$ and subgroup $Hle G$, it is known that always $d(H) le d(G)$. But for non abelian, it isn't always true -for example, $S_n$, and a subgroup of $S_n$ that is isomorphic to $H = mathbbZ_2 times mathbbZ_2 times mathbbZ_2 $, have $d(S_n) = 2$ but $d(H) = 3$.
So my idea was to use that example ( $S_n$ and $H$), and the quotient group of that subgroup. But I'm not sure how to prove it formally?(Assuming it is correct).
group-theory abelian-groups quotient-group
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
True or false: Let $G$ be a finite group, and we'll denote $d(G)$ as the minimal size of the generating set of $G$. Let $Q$ be a quotient map of $G$, so it than it must be that $d(Q) le d(G)$.
I believe that it is false - For abelian groups $G$ and subgroup $Hle G$, it is known that always $d(H) le d(G)$. But for non abelian, it isn't always true -for example, $S_n$, and a subgroup of $S_n$ that is isomorphic to $H = mathbbZ_2 times mathbbZ_2 times mathbbZ_2 $, have $d(S_n) = 2$ but $d(H) = 3$.
So my idea was to use that example ( $S_n$ and $H$), and the quotient group of that subgroup. But I'm not sure how to prove it formally?(Assuming it is correct).
group-theory abelian-groups quotient-group
True or false: Let $G$ be a finite group, and we'll denote $d(G)$ as the minimal size of the generating set of $G$. Let $Q$ be a quotient map of $G$, so it than it must be that $d(Q) le d(G)$.
I believe that it is false - For abelian groups $G$ and subgroup $Hle G$, it is known that always $d(H) le d(G)$. But for non abelian, it isn't always true -for example, $S_n$, and a subgroup of $S_n$ that is isomorphic to $H = mathbbZ_2 times mathbbZ_2 times mathbbZ_2 $, have $d(S_n) = 2$ but $d(H) = 3$.
So my idea was to use that example ( $S_n$ and $H$), and the quotient group of that subgroup. But I'm not sure how to prove it formally?(Assuming it is correct).
group-theory abelian-groups quotient-group
group-theory abelian-groups quotient-group
asked Sep 9 at 14:07
ChikChak
712217
712217
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2 Answers
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Assume that $g_1,ldots,g_n$ is a generating set for $G$ of the minimal size. If $Q$ is a quotient group $G/H$ for $Htriangleleft G$, note that $g_1H,ldots,g_nH$ is a generating set for $Q$. Indeed, for every $xin G$ you can write $x=s_1ldots s_m$ where each $s_jin g_i, g_i^-1mid 1leq ileq n$, so $xH=(s_1H)ldots(s_mH)$ and each $s_jHing_iH,g_i^-1Hmid 1leq ileq n$. So the minimal size of a generating set for $Q$, $d(Q)$, is less or equal to $n=d(G)$.
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up vote
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Strong hint: Let $G=langle g_1,ldots,g_drangle$ where $d=d(G)$. If $Q=G/N$ then what is $langle g_1N,ldots,g_dNrangle$ (as a subgroup of $Q$)?
Your mistake is that $H$ is a subgroup not a quotient.
$langle g_1N,ldots,g_dNrangle$ is exactly $Q$?
â ChikChak
Sep 9 at 16:44
1
yes and that gives you an upper bound on $d(Q)$
â Robert Chamberlain
Sep 9 at 16:49
Is this an answer or a hint?
â Seub
Sep 9 at 20:29
1
It is a hint from which I hope the reader is able to work out a more full answer themselves. This is not unusual for questions which look like undergraduate exercises as hints are often more helpful than a compete answer. I'm happy to give more detail to anyone who would like it
â Robert Chamberlain
Sep 9 at 20:36
add a comment |Â
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
3
down vote
accepted
Assume that $g_1,ldots,g_n$ is a generating set for $G$ of the minimal size. If $Q$ is a quotient group $G/H$ for $Htriangleleft G$, note that $g_1H,ldots,g_nH$ is a generating set for $Q$. Indeed, for every $xin G$ you can write $x=s_1ldots s_m$ where each $s_jin g_i, g_i^-1mid 1leq ileq n$, so $xH=(s_1H)ldots(s_mH)$ and each $s_jHing_iH,g_i^-1Hmid 1leq ileq n$. So the minimal size of a generating set for $Q$, $d(Q)$, is less or equal to $n=d(G)$.
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
accepted
Assume that $g_1,ldots,g_n$ is a generating set for $G$ of the minimal size. If $Q$ is a quotient group $G/H$ for $Htriangleleft G$, note that $g_1H,ldots,g_nH$ is a generating set for $Q$. Indeed, for every $xin G$ you can write $x=s_1ldots s_m$ where each $s_jin g_i, g_i^-1mid 1leq ileq n$, so $xH=(s_1H)ldots(s_mH)$ and each $s_jHing_iH,g_i^-1Hmid 1leq ileq n$. So the minimal size of a generating set for $Q$, $d(Q)$, is less or equal to $n=d(G)$.
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
accepted
up vote
3
down vote
accepted
Assume that $g_1,ldots,g_n$ is a generating set for $G$ of the minimal size. If $Q$ is a quotient group $G/H$ for $Htriangleleft G$, note that $g_1H,ldots,g_nH$ is a generating set for $Q$. Indeed, for every $xin G$ you can write $x=s_1ldots s_m$ where each $s_jin g_i, g_i^-1mid 1leq ileq n$, so $xH=(s_1H)ldots(s_mH)$ and each $s_jHing_iH,g_i^-1Hmid 1leq ileq n$. So the minimal size of a generating set for $Q$, $d(Q)$, is less or equal to $n=d(G)$.
Assume that $g_1,ldots,g_n$ is a generating set for $G$ of the minimal size. If $Q$ is a quotient group $G/H$ for $Htriangleleft G$, note that $g_1H,ldots,g_nH$ is a generating set for $Q$. Indeed, for every $xin G$ you can write $x=s_1ldots s_m$ where each $s_jin g_i, g_i^-1mid 1leq ileq n$, so $xH=(s_1H)ldots(s_mH)$ and each $s_jHing_iH,g_i^-1Hmid 1leq ileq n$. So the minimal size of a generating set for $Q$, $d(Q)$, is less or equal to $n=d(G)$.
answered Sep 9 at 14:31
SMM
2,03049
2,03049
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up vote
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down vote
Strong hint: Let $G=langle g_1,ldots,g_drangle$ where $d=d(G)$. If $Q=G/N$ then what is $langle g_1N,ldots,g_dNrangle$ (as a subgroup of $Q$)?
Your mistake is that $H$ is a subgroup not a quotient.
$langle g_1N,ldots,g_dNrangle$ is exactly $Q$?
â ChikChak
Sep 9 at 16:44
1
yes and that gives you an upper bound on $d(Q)$
â Robert Chamberlain
Sep 9 at 16:49
Is this an answer or a hint?
â Seub
Sep 9 at 20:29
1
It is a hint from which I hope the reader is able to work out a more full answer themselves. This is not unusual for questions which look like undergraduate exercises as hints are often more helpful than a compete answer. I'm happy to give more detail to anyone who would like it
â Robert Chamberlain
Sep 9 at 20:36
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
Strong hint: Let $G=langle g_1,ldots,g_drangle$ where $d=d(G)$. If $Q=G/N$ then what is $langle g_1N,ldots,g_dNrangle$ (as a subgroup of $Q$)?
Your mistake is that $H$ is a subgroup not a quotient.
$langle g_1N,ldots,g_dNrangle$ is exactly $Q$?
â ChikChak
Sep 9 at 16:44
1
yes and that gives you an upper bound on $d(Q)$
â Robert Chamberlain
Sep 9 at 16:49
Is this an answer or a hint?
â Seub
Sep 9 at 20:29
1
It is a hint from which I hope the reader is able to work out a more full answer themselves. This is not unusual for questions which look like undergraduate exercises as hints are often more helpful than a compete answer. I'm happy to give more detail to anyone who would like it
â Robert Chamberlain
Sep 9 at 20:36
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
Strong hint: Let $G=langle g_1,ldots,g_drangle$ where $d=d(G)$. If $Q=G/N$ then what is $langle g_1N,ldots,g_dNrangle$ (as a subgroup of $Q$)?
Your mistake is that $H$ is a subgroup not a quotient.
Strong hint: Let $G=langle g_1,ldots,g_drangle$ where $d=d(G)$. If $Q=G/N$ then what is $langle g_1N,ldots,g_dNrangle$ (as a subgroup of $Q$)?
Your mistake is that $H$ is a subgroup not a quotient.
answered Sep 9 at 14:32
Robert Chamberlain
3,9301421
3,9301421
$langle g_1N,ldots,g_dNrangle$ is exactly $Q$?
â ChikChak
Sep 9 at 16:44
1
yes and that gives you an upper bound on $d(Q)$
â Robert Chamberlain
Sep 9 at 16:49
Is this an answer or a hint?
â Seub
Sep 9 at 20:29
1
It is a hint from which I hope the reader is able to work out a more full answer themselves. This is not unusual for questions which look like undergraduate exercises as hints are often more helpful than a compete answer. I'm happy to give more detail to anyone who would like it
â Robert Chamberlain
Sep 9 at 20:36
add a comment |Â
$langle g_1N,ldots,g_dNrangle$ is exactly $Q$?
â ChikChak
Sep 9 at 16:44
1
yes and that gives you an upper bound on $d(Q)$
â Robert Chamberlain
Sep 9 at 16:49
Is this an answer or a hint?
â Seub
Sep 9 at 20:29
1
It is a hint from which I hope the reader is able to work out a more full answer themselves. This is not unusual for questions which look like undergraduate exercises as hints are often more helpful than a compete answer. I'm happy to give more detail to anyone who would like it
â Robert Chamberlain
Sep 9 at 20:36
$langle g_1N,ldots,g_dNrangle$ is exactly $Q$?
â ChikChak
Sep 9 at 16:44
$langle g_1N,ldots,g_dNrangle$ is exactly $Q$?
â ChikChak
Sep 9 at 16:44
1
1
yes and that gives you an upper bound on $d(Q)$
â Robert Chamberlain
Sep 9 at 16:49
yes and that gives you an upper bound on $d(Q)$
â Robert Chamberlain
Sep 9 at 16:49
Is this an answer or a hint?
â Seub
Sep 9 at 20:29
Is this an answer or a hint?
â Seub
Sep 9 at 20:29
1
1
It is a hint from which I hope the reader is able to work out a more full answer themselves. This is not unusual for questions which look like undergraduate exercises as hints are often more helpful than a compete answer. I'm happy to give more detail to anyone who would like it
â Robert Chamberlain
Sep 9 at 20:36
It is a hint from which I hope the reader is able to work out a more full answer themselves. This is not unusual for questions which look like undergraduate exercises as hints are often more helpful than a compete answer. I'm happy to give more detail to anyone who would like it
â Robert Chamberlain
Sep 9 at 20:36
add a comment |Â
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