If $subseteq$ is defined set-theoretically, it doesn't exist
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I came across the following statement:
If the subset relation $subseteq $ is defined as a set in ZFC, then it doesn't exist because $mathrmdom(Rmathrm)$ is guaranteed to exist for any relation $R$, and $mathrmdom(subseteq)$ is $V$, which doesn't exist.
I understand everything except "$mathrmdom(subseteq)$ is $V$". The domain of $subseteq$ is the set of all $A$'s such that $Asubseteq B$, but since we are defining $subseteq$ set-theoretically, $A$ is not any set, it is any set in ZFC, so I don't understand how this domain equals $V$.
Can anyone explain this?
set-theory
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show 9 more comments
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
I came across the following statement:
If the subset relation $subseteq $ is defined as a set in ZFC, then it doesn't exist because $mathrmdom(Rmathrm)$ is guaranteed to exist for any relation $R$, and $mathrmdom(subseteq)$ is $V$, which doesn't exist.
I understand everything except "$mathrmdom(subseteq)$ is $V$". The domain of $subseteq$ is the set of all $A$'s such that $Asubseteq B$, but since we are defining $subseteq$ set-theoretically, $A$ is not any set, it is any set in ZFC, so I don't understand how this domain equals $V$.
Can anyone explain this?
set-theory
The distinction you make between any set and any set in ZFC doesn't seem to have any sense to me (I would say they mean the same thing). Could you explain how those two differ?
â Adayah
Sep 9 at 13:53
@Adayah, now I see where my mistake was: ZFC proves the existence of any set in $V$, but not the existence of $V$ itself... All the answers, including yours, assume I know this (which I do, but did not notice and take into account here). Your comment answers my question, so if you want you can make it into a proper answer and I will accept it.
â alex811
Sep 9 at 13:59
I'm glad to help, but I still don't understand what your mistake was, so I don't really know what I should put in the answer. :p Also, now the statement ZFC proves the existence of any set in $V$ doesn't make sense to me, but it's probably because I'm taking it literally.
â Adayah
Sep 9 at 14:12
@Adayah, I thought that "all of the objects ZFC can talk about" and "everything in $V$" were different things, and they aren't. Do you understand what my mistake was now?
â alex811
Sep 9 at 14:19
@Adayah please leave a reply confirming I'm not making another mistake :)
â alex811
Sep 9 at 15:53
 |Â
show 9 more comments
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
I came across the following statement:
If the subset relation $subseteq $ is defined as a set in ZFC, then it doesn't exist because $mathrmdom(Rmathrm)$ is guaranteed to exist for any relation $R$, and $mathrmdom(subseteq)$ is $V$, which doesn't exist.
I understand everything except "$mathrmdom(subseteq)$ is $V$". The domain of $subseteq$ is the set of all $A$'s such that $Asubseteq B$, but since we are defining $subseteq$ set-theoretically, $A$ is not any set, it is any set in ZFC, so I don't understand how this domain equals $V$.
Can anyone explain this?
set-theory
I came across the following statement:
If the subset relation $subseteq $ is defined as a set in ZFC, then it doesn't exist because $mathrmdom(Rmathrm)$ is guaranteed to exist for any relation $R$, and $mathrmdom(subseteq)$ is $V$, which doesn't exist.
I understand everything except "$mathrmdom(subseteq)$ is $V$". The domain of $subseteq$ is the set of all $A$'s such that $Asubseteq B$, but since we are defining $subseteq$ set-theoretically, $A$ is not any set, it is any set in ZFC, so I don't understand how this domain equals $V$.
Can anyone explain this?
set-theory
set-theory
edited Sep 9 at 13:47
asked Sep 9 at 13:29
alex811
133
133
The distinction you make between any set and any set in ZFC doesn't seem to have any sense to me (I would say they mean the same thing). Could you explain how those two differ?
â Adayah
Sep 9 at 13:53
@Adayah, now I see where my mistake was: ZFC proves the existence of any set in $V$, but not the existence of $V$ itself... All the answers, including yours, assume I know this (which I do, but did not notice and take into account here). Your comment answers my question, so if you want you can make it into a proper answer and I will accept it.
â alex811
Sep 9 at 13:59
I'm glad to help, but I still don't understand what your mistake was, so I don't really know what I should put in the answer. :p Also, now the statement ZFC proves the existence of any set in $V$ doesn't make sense to me, but it's probably because I'm taking it literally.
â Adayah
Sep 9 at 14:12
@Adayah, I thought that "all of the objects ZFC can talk about" and "everything in $V$" were different things, and they aren't. Do you understand what my mistake was now?
â alex811
Sep 9 at 14:19
@Adayah please leave a reply confirming I'm not making another mistake :)
â alex811
Sep 9 at 15:53
 |Â
show 9 more comments
The distinction you make between any set and any set in ZFC doesn't seem to have any sense to me (I would say they mean the same thing). Could you explain how those two differ?
â Adayah
Sep 9 at 13:53
@Adayah, now I see where my mistake was: ZFC proves the existence of any set in $V$, but not the existence of $V$ itself... All the answers, including yours, assume I know this (which I do, but did not notice and take into account here). Your comment answers my question, so if you want you can make it into a proper answer and I will accept it.
â alex811
Sep 9 at 13:59
I'm glad to help, but I still don't understand what your mistake was, so I don't really know what I should put in the answer. :p Also, now the statement ZFC proves the existence of any set in $V$ doesn't make sense to me, but it's probably because I'm taking it literally.
â Adayah
Sep 9 at 14:12
@Adayah, I thought that "all of the objects ZFC can talk about" and "everything in $V$" were different things, and they aren't. Do you understand what my mistake was now?
â alex811
Sep 9 at 14:19
@Adayah please leave a reply confirming I'm not making another mistake :)
â alex811
Sep 9 at 15:53
The distinction you make between any set and any set in ZFC doesn't seem to have any sense to me (I would say they mean the same thing). Could you explain how those two differ?
â Adayah
Sep 9 at 13:53
The distinction you make between any set and any set in ZFC doesn't seem to have any sense to me (I would say they mean the same thing). Could you explain how those two differ?
â Adayah
Sep 9 at 13:53
@Adayah, now I see where my mistake was: ZFC proves the existence of any set in $V$, but not the existence of $V$ itself... All the answers, including yours, assume I know this (which I do, but did not notice and take into account here). Your comment answers my question, so if you want you can make it into a proper answer and I will accept it.
â alex811
Sep 9 at 13:59
@Adayah, now I see where my mistake was: ZFC proves the existence of any set in $V$, but not the existence of $V$ itself... All the answers, including yours, assume I know this (which I do, but did not notice and take into account here). Your comment answers my question, so if you want you can make it into a proper answer and I will accept it.
â alex811
Sep 9 at 13:59
I'm glad to help, but I still don't understand what your mistake was, so I don't really know what I should put in the answer. :p Also, now the statement ZFC proves the existence of any set in $V$ doesn't make sense to me, but it's probably because I'm taking it literally.
â Adayah
Sep 9 at 14:12
I'm glad to help, but I still don't understand what your mistake was, so I don't really know what I should put in the answer. :p Also, now the statement ZFC proves the existence of any set in $V$ doesn't make sense to me, but it's probably because I'm taking it literally.
â Adayah
Sep 9 at 14:12
@Adayah, I thought that "all of the objects ZFC can talk about" and "everything in $V$" were different things, and they aren't. Do you understand what my mistake was now?
â alex811
Sep 9 at 14:19
@Adayah, I thought that "all of the objects ZFC can talk about" and "everything in $V$" were different things, and they aren't. Do you understand what my mistake was now?
â alex811
Sep 9 at 14:19
@Adayah please leave a reply confirming I'm not making another mistake :)
â alex811
Sep 9 at 15:53
@Adayah please leave a reply confirming I'm not making another mistake :)
â alex811
Sep 9 at 15:53
 |Â
show 9 more comments
3 Answers
3
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oldest
votes
up vote
1
down vote
$V$ is the common name for the collection of all sets (which doesn't exists as a set, as implied by the Russell's paradox, therefore we often refer to it as the class of all sets). As you probably know,
$$operatornamedom R = x : (exists y) , (x, y) in R . $$
Since for each set $A$ there is a set $B$ (for instance, $B = A$) such that $A subseteq B$, we have that if $subseteq$ were a set, then $operatornamedom subseteq$ would be the set of all sets $V$, which is a contradiction.
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
The symbol $V$ is being used, presumably, to stand for the "universe" of all sets, which is a class but is not a set. To say that "dom($subseteq$) is $V$" simply means that in the sentence $A subseteq B$, you may replace $A$ by any set, i.e. any element of $V$, and you may replace $B$ by any set, and having made those replacements the sentence will then have a truth value.
I understand all this, but defining $subseteq$ set-theoretically restricts $A$ to be a set in ZFC, not a set in $V$.
â alex811
Sep 9 at 13:43
@alex No, that really makes no sense. It is like claiming that $-3$ is not the additive inverse of 3 in the group $mathbb Z$ but rather in the theory of groups. You are mixing the theory the discussion takes place in, in this case ZFC, with the objects involved in the discussion, in this case the full set-theoretic universe $V$.
â Andrés E. Caicedo
Sep 9 at 13:49
I think the OP quite clearly indicates we are in the context of the axiomatic set theory. In that context $operatornamedom$ has a strict definition and it is not the (unstrict) definition you are using.
â Adayah
Sep 9 at 13:58
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
Well, $xsubseteq x$ holds for every $x$. So, if you were write down the definition of $operatornamedom(subseteq)$ you'd get $x:(exists y)(xsubseteq y)$, which is a subclass of $V$, but by the first sentence $V$ is part of $operatornamedom(subseteq)$.
add a comment |Â
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
1
down vote
$V$ is the common name for the collection of all sets (which doesn't exists as a set, as implied by the Russell's paradox, therefore we often refer to it as the class of all sets). As you probably know,
$$operatornamedom R = x : (exists y) , (x, y) in R . $$
Since for each set $A$ there is a set $B$ (for instance, $B = A$) such that $A subseteq B$, we have that if $subseteq$ were a set, then $operatornamedom subseteq$ would be the set of all sets $V$, which is a contradiction.
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
$V$ is the common name for the collection of all sets (which doesn't exists as a set, as implied by the Russell's paradox, therefore we often refer to it as the class of all sets). As you probably know,
$$operatornamedom R = x : (exists y) , (x, y) in R . $$
Since for each set $A$ there is a set $B$ (for instance, $B = A$) such that $A subseteq B$, we have that if $subseteq$ were a set, then $operatornamedom subseteq$ would be the set of all sets $V$, which is a contradiction.
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
$V$ is the common name for the collection of all sets (which doesn't exists as a set, as implied by the Russell's paradox, therefore we often refer to it as the class of all sets). As you probably know,
$$operatornamedom R = x : (exists y) , (x, y) in R . $$
Since for each set $A$ there is a set $B$ (for instance, $B = A$) such that $A subseteq B$, we have that if $subseteq$ were a set, then $operatornamedom subseteq$ would be the set of all sets $V$, which is a contradiction.
$V$ is the common name for the collection of all sets (which doesn't exists as a set, as implied by the Russell's paradox, therefore we often refer to it as the class of all sets). As you probably know,
$$operatornamedom R = x : (exists y) , (x, y) in R . $$
Since for each set $A$ there is a set $B$ (for instance, $B = A$) such that $A subseteq B$, we have that if $subseteq$ were a set, then $operatornamedom subseteq$ would be the set of all sets $V$, which is a contradiction.
edited Sep 9 at 13:47
answered Sep 9 at 13:38
Adayah
6,781823
6,781823
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
The symbol $V$ is being used, presumably, to stand for the "universe" of all sets, which is a class but is not a set. To say that "dom($subseteq$) is $V$" simply means that in the sentence $A subseteq B$, you may replace $A$ by any set, i.e. any element of $V$, and you may replace $B$ by any set, and having made those replacements the sentence will then have a truth value.
I understand all this, but defining $subseteq$ set-theoretically restricts $A$ to be a set in ZFC, not a set in $V$.
â alex811
Sep 9 at 13:43
@alex No, that really makes no sense. It is like claiming that $-3$ is not the additive inverse of 3 in the group $mathbb Z$ but rather in the theory of groups. You are mixing the theory the discussion takes place in, in this case ZFC, with the objects involved in the discussion, in this case the full set-theoretic universe $V$.
â Andrés E. Caicedo
Sep 9 at 13:49
I think the OP quite clearly indicates we are in the context of the axiomatic set theory. In that context $operatornamedom$ has a strict definition and it is not the (unstrict) definition you are using.
â Adayah
Sep 9 at 13:58
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
The symbol $V$ is being used, presumably, to stand for the "universe" of all sets, which is a class but is not a set. To say that "dom($subseteq$) is $V$" simply means that in the sentence $A subseteq B$, you may replace $A$ by any set, i.e. any element of $V$, and you may replace $B$ by any set, and having made those replacements the sentence will then have a truth value.
I understand all this, but defining $subseteq$ set-theoretically restricts $A$ to be a set in ZFC, not a set in $V$.
â alex811
Sep 9 at 13:43
@alex No, that really makes no sense. It is like claiming that $-3$ is not the additive inverse of 3 in the group $mathbb Z$ but rather in the theory of groups. You are mixing the theory the discussion takes place in, in this case ZFC, with the objects involved in the discussion, in this case the full set-theoretic universe $V$.
â Andrés E. Caicedo
Sep 9 at 13:49
I think the OP quite clearly indicates we are in the context of the axiomatic set theory. In that context $operatornamedom$ has a strict definition and it is not the (unstrict) definition you are using.
â Adayah
Sep 9 at 13:58
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
The symbol $V$ is being used, presumably, to stand for the "universe" of all sets, which is a class but is not a set. To say that "dom($subseteq$) is $V$" simply means that in the sentence $A subseteq B$, you may replace $A$ by any set, i.e. any element of $V$, and you may replace $B$ by any set, and having made those replacements the sentence will then have a truth value.
The symbol $V$ is being used, presumably, to stand for the "universe" of all sets, which is a class but is not a set. To say that "dom($subseteq$) is $V$" simply means that in the sentence $A subseteq B$, you may replace $A$ by any set, i.e. any element of $V$, and you may replace $B$ by any set, and having made those replacements the sentence will then have a truth value.
answered Sep 9 at 13:33
Lee Mosher
46.2k33579
46.2k33579
I understand all this, but defining $subseteq$ set-theoretically restricts $A$ to be a set in ZFC, not a set in $V$.
â alex811
Sep 9 at 13:43
@alex No, that really makes no sense. It is like claiming that $-3$ is not the additive inverse of 3 in the group $mathbb Z$ but rather in the theory of groups. You are mixing the theory the discussion takes place in, in this case ZFC, with the objects involved in the discussion, in this case the full set-theoretic universe $V$.
â Andrés E. Caicedo
Sep 9 at 13:49
I think the OP quite clearly indicates we are in the context of the axiomatic set theory. In that context $operatornamedom$ has a strict definition and it is not the (unstrict) definition you are using.
â Adayah
Sep 9 at 13:58
add a comment |Â
I understand all this, but defining $subseteq$ set-theoretically restricts $A$ to be a set in ZFC, not a set in $V$.
â alex811
Sep 9 at 13:43
@alex No, that really makes no sense. It is like claiming that $-3$ is not the additive inverse of 3 in the group $mathbb Z$ but rather in the theory of groups. You are mixing the theory the discussion takes place in, in this case ZFC, with the objects involved in the discussion, in this case the full set-theoretic universe $V$.
â Andrés E. Caicedo
Sep 9 at 13:49
I think the OP quite clearly indicates we are in the context of the axiomatic set theory. In that context $operatornamedom$ has a strict definition and it is not the (unstrict) definition you are using.
â Adayah
Sep 9 at 13:58
I understand all this, but defining $subseteq$ set-theoretically restricts $A$ to be a set in ZFC, not a set in $V$.
â alex811
Sep 9 at 13:43
I understand all this, but defining $subseteq$ set-theoretically restricts $A$ to be a set in ZFC, not a set in $V$.
â alex811
Sep 9 at 13:43
@alex No, that really makes no sense. It is like claiming that $-3$ is not the additive inverse of 3 in the group $mathbb Z$ but rather in the theory of groups. You are mixing the theory the discussion takes place in, in this case ZFC, with the objects involved in the discussion, in this case the full set-theoretic universe $V$.
â Andrés E. Caicedo
Sep 9 at 13:49
@alex No, that really makes no sense. It is like claiming that $-3$ is not the additive inverse of 3 in the group $mathbb Z$ but rather in the theory of groups. You are mixing the theory the discussion takes place in, in this case ZFC, with the objects involved in the discussion, in this case the full set-theoretic universe $V$.
â Andrés E. Caicedo
Sep 9 at 13:49
I think the OP quite clearly indicates we are in the context of the axiomatic set theory. In that context $operatornamedom$ has a strict definition and it is not the (unstrict) definition you are using.
â Adayah
Sep 9 at 13:58
I think the OP quite clearly indicates we are in the context of the axiomatic set theory. In that context $operatornamedom$ has a strict definition and it is not the (unstrict) definition you are using.
â Adayah
Sep 9 at 13:58
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
Well, $xsubseteq x$ holds for every $x$. So, if you were write down the definition of $operatornamedom(subseteq)$ you'd get $x:(exists y)(xsubseteq y)$, which is a subclass of $V$, but by the first sentence $V$ is part of $operatornamedom(subseteq)$.
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
Well, $xsubseteq x$ holds for every $x$. So, if you were write down the definition of $operatornamedom(subseteq)$ you'd get $x:(exists y)(xsubseteq y)$, which is a subclass of $V$, but by the first sentence $V$ is part of $operatornamedom(subseteq)$.
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
Well, $xsubseteq x$ holds for every $x$. So, if you were write down the definition of $operatornamedom(subseteq)$ you'd get $x:(exists y)(xsubseteq y)$, which is a subclass of $V$, but by the first sentence $V$ is part of $operatornamedom(subseteq)$.
Well, $xsubseteq x$ holds for every $x$. So, if you were write down the definition of $operatornamedom(subseteq)$ you'd get $x:(exists y)(xsubseteq y)$, which is a subclass of $V$, but by the first sentence $V$ is part of $operatornamedom(subseteq)$.
answered Sep 9 at 13:36
hartkp
42123
42123
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
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The distinction you make between any set and any set in ZFC doesn't seem to have any sense to me (I would say they mean the same thing). Could you explain how those two differ?
â Adayah
Sep 9 at 13:53
@Adayah, now I see where my mistake was: ZFC proves the existence of any set in $V$, but not the existence of $V$ itself... All the answers, including yours, assume I know this (which I do, but did not notice and take into account here). Your comment answers my question, so if you want you can make it into a proper answer and I will accept it.
â alex811
Sep 9 at 13:59
I'm glad to help, but I still don't understand what your mistake was, so I don't really know what I should put in the answer. :p Also, now the statement ZFC proves the existence of any set in $V$ doesn't make sense to me, but it's probably because I'm taking it literally.
â Adayah
Sep 9 at 14:12
@Adayah, I thought that "all of the objects ZFC can talk about" and "everything in $V$" were different things, and they aren't. Do you understand what my mistake was now?
â alex811
Sep 9 at 14:19
@Adayah please leave a reply confirming I'm not making another mistake :)
â alex811
Sep 9 at 15:53