If $subseteq$ is defined set-theoretically, it doesn't exist

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I came across the following statement:




If the subset relation $subseteq $ is defined as a set in ZFC, then it doesn't exist because $mathrmdom(Rmathrm)$ is guaranteed to exist for any relation $R$, and $mathrmdom(subseteq)$ is $V$, which doesn't exist.




I understand everything except "$mathrmdom(subseteq)$ is $V$". The domain of $subseteq$ is the set of all $A$'s such that $Asubseteq B$, but since we are defining $subseteq$ set-theoretically, $A$ is not any set, it is any set in ZFC, so I don't understand how this domain equals $V$.



Can anyone explain this?










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  • The distinction you make between any set and any set in ZFC doesn't seem to have any sense to me (I would say they mean the same thing). Could you explain how those two differ?
    – Adayah
    Sep 9 at 13:53











  • @Adayah, now I see where my mistake was: ZFC proves the existence of any set in $V$, but not the existence of $V$ itself... All the answers, including yours, assume I know this (which I do, but did not notice and take into account here). Your comment answers my question, so if you want you can make it into a proper answer and I will accept it.
    – alex811
    Sep 9 at 13:59











  • I'm glad to help, but I still don't understand what your mistake was, so I don't really know what I should put in the answer. :p Also, now the statement ZFC proves the existence of any set in $V$ doesn't make sense to me, but it's probably because I'm taking it literally.
    – Adayah
    Sep 9 at 14:12










  • @Adayah, I thought that "all of the objects ZFC can talk about" and "everything in $V$" were different things, and they aren't. Do you understand what my mistake was now?
    – alex811
    Sep 9 at 14:19











  • @Adayah please leave a reply confirming I'm not making another mistake :)
    – alex811
    Sep 9 at 15:53














up vote
2
down vote

favorite












I came across the following statement:




If the subset relation $subseteq $ is defined as a set in ZFC, then it doesn't exist because $mathrmdom(Rmathrm)$ is guaranteed to exist for any relation $R$, and $mathrmdom(subseteq)$ is $V$, which doesn't exist.




I understand everything except "$mathrmdom(subseteq)$ is $V$". The domain of $subseteq$ is the set of all $A$'s such that $Asubseteq B$, but since we are defining $subseteq$ set-theoretically, $A$ is not any set, it is any set in ZFC, so I don't understand how this domain equals $V$.



Can anyone explain this?










share|cite|improve this question























  • The distinction you make between any set and any set in ZFC doesn't seem to have any sense to me (I would say they mean the same thing). Could you explain how those two differ?
    – Adayah
    Sep 9 at 13:53











  • @Adayah, now I see where my mistake was: ZFC proves the existence of any set in $V$, but not the existence of $V$ itself... All the answers, including yours, assume I know this (which I do, but did not notice and take into account here). Your comment answers my question, so if you want you can make it into a proper answer and I will accept it.
    – alex811
    Sep 9 at 13:59











  • I'm glad to help, but I still don't understand what your mistake was, so I don't really know what I should put in the answer. :p Also, now the statement ZFC proves the existence of any set in $V$ doesn't make sense to me, but it's probably because I'm taking it literally.
    – Adayah
    Sep 9 at 14:12










  • @Adayah, I thought that "all of the objects ZFC can talk about" and "everything in $V$" were different things, and they aren't. Do you understand what my mistake was now?
    – alex811
    Sep 9 at 14:19











  • @Adayah please leave a reply confirming I'm not making another mistake :)
    – alex811
    Sep 9 at 15:53












up vote
2
down vote

favorite









up vote
2
down vote

favorite











I came across the following statement:




If the subset relation $subseteq $ is defined as a set in ZFC, then it doesn't exist because $mathrmdom(Rmathrm)$ is guaranteed to exist for any relation $R$, and $mathrmdom(subseteq)$ is $V$, which doesn't exist.




I understand everything except "$mathrmdom(subseteq)$ is $V$". The domain of $subseteq$ is the set of all $A$'s such that $Asubseteq B$, but since we are defining $subseteq$ set-theoretically, $A$ is not any set, it is any set in ZFC, so I don't understand how this domain equals $V$.



Can anyone explain this?










share|cite|improve this question















I came across the following statement:




If the subset relation $subseteq $ is defined as a set in ZFC, then it doesn't exist because $mathrmdom(Rmathrm)$ is guaranteed to exist for any relation $R$, and $mathrmdom(subseteq)$ is $V$, which doesn't exist.




I understand everything except "$mathrmdom(subseteq)$ is $V$". The domain of $subseteq$ is the set of all $A$'s such that $Asubseteq B$, but since we are defining $subseteq$ set-theoretically, $A$ is not any set, it is any set in ZFC, so I don't understand how this domain equals $V$.



Can anyone explain this?







set-theory






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edited Sep 9 at 13:47

























asked Sep 9 at 13:29









alex811

133




133











  • The distinction you make between any set and any set in ZFC doesn't seem to have any sense to me (I would say they mean the same thing). Could you explain how those two differ?
    – Adayah
    Sep 9 at 13:53











  • @Adayah, now I see where my mistake was: ZFC proves the existence of any set in $V$, but not the existence of $V$ itself... All the answers, including yours, assume I know this (which I do, but did not notice and take into account here). Your comment answers my question, so if you want you can make it into a proper answer and I will accept it.
    – alex811
    Sep 9 at 13:59











  • I'm glad to help, but I still don't understand what your mistake was, so I don't really know what I should put in the answer. :p Also, now the statement ZFC proves the existence of any set in $V$ doesn't make sense to me, but it's probably because I'm taking it literally.
    – Adayah
    Sep 9 at 14:12










  • @Adayah, I thought that "all of the objects ZFC can talk about" and "everything in $V$" were different things, and they aren't. Do you understand what my mistake was now?
    – alex811
    Sep 9 at 14:19











  • @Adayah please leave a reply confirming I'm not making another mistake :)
    – alex811
    Sep 9 at 15:53
















  • The distinction you make between any set and any set in ZFC doesn't seem to have any sense to me (I would say they mean the same thing). Could you explain how those two differ?
    – Adayah
    Sep 9 at 13:53











  • @Adayah, now I see where my mistake was: ZFC proves the existence of any set in $V$, but not the existence of $V$ itself... All the answers, including yours, assume I know this (which I do, but did not notice and take into account here). Your comment answers my question, so if you want you can make it into a proper answer and I will accept it.
    – alex811
    Sep 9 at 13:59











  • I'm glad to help, but I still don't understand what your mistake was, so I don't really know what I should put in the answer. :p Also, now the statement ZFC proves the existence of any set in $V$ doesn't make sense to me, but it's probably because I'm taking it literally.
    – Adayah
    Sep 9 at 14:12










  • @Adayah, I thought that "all of the objects ZFC can talk about" and "everything in $V$" were different things, and they aren't. Do you understand what my mistake was now?
    – alex811
    Sep 9 at 14:19











  • @Adayah please leave a reply confirming I'm not making another mistake :)
    – alex811
    Sep 9 at 15:53















The distinction you make between any set and any set in ZFC doesn't seem to have any sense to me (I would say they mean the same thing). Could you explain how those two differ?
– Adayah
Sep 9 at 13:53





The distinction you make between any set and any set in ZFC doesn't seem to have any sense to me (I would say they mean the same thing). Could you explain how those two differ?
– Adayah
Sep 9 at 13:53













@Adayah, now I see where my mistake was: ZFC proves the existence of any set in $V$, but not the existence of $V$ itself... All the answers, including yours, assume I know this (which I do, but did not notice and take into account here). Your comment answers my question, so if you want you can make it into a proper answer and I will accept it.
– alex811
Sep 9 at 13:59





@Adayah, now I see where my mistake was: ZFC proves the existence of any set in $V$, but not the existence of $V$ itself... All the answers, including yours, assume I know this (which I do, but did not notice and take into account here). Your comment answers my question, so if you want you can make it into a proper answer and I will accept it.
– alex811
Sep 9 at 13:59













I'm glad to help, but I still don't understand what your mistake was, so I don't really know what I should put in the answer. :p Also, now the statement ZFC proves the existence of any set in $V$ doesn't make sense to me, but it's probably because I'm taking it literally.
– Adayah
Sep 9 at 14:12




I'm glad to help, but I still don't understand what your mistake was, so I don't really know what I should put in the answer. :p Also, now the statement ZFC proves the existence of any set in $V$ doesn't make sense to me, but it's probably because I'm taking it literally.
– Adayah
Sep 9 at 14:12












@Adayah, I thought that "all of the objects ZFC can talk about" and "everything in $V$" were different things, and they aren't. Do you understand what my mistake was now?
– alex811
Sep 9 at 14:19





@Adayah, I thought that "all of the objects ZFC can talk about" and "everything in $V$" were different things, and they aren't. Do you understand what my mistake was now?
– alex811
Sep 9 at 14:19













@Adayah please leave a reply confirming I'm not making another mistake :)
– alex811
Sep 9 at 15:53




@Adayah please leave a reply confirming I'm not making another mistake :)
– alex811
Sep 9 at 15:53










3 Answers
3






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1
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$V$ is the common name for the collection of all sets (which doesn't exists as a set, as implied by the Russell's paradox, therefore we often refer to it as the class of all sets). As you probably know,



$$operatornamedom R = x : (exists y) , (x, y) in R . $$



Since for each set $A$ there is a set $B$ (for instance, $B = A$) such that $A subseteq B$, we have that if $subseteq$ were a set, then $operatornamedom subseteq$ would be the set of all sets $V$, which is a contradiction.






share|cite|improve this answer





























    up vote
    0
    down vote













    The symbol $V$ is being used, presumably, to stand for the "universe" of all sets, which is a class but is not a set. To say that "dom($subseteq$) is $V$" simply means that in the sentence $A subseteq B$, you may replace $A$ by any set, i.e. any element of $V$, and you may replace $B$ by any set, and having made those replacements the sentence will then have a truth value.






    share|cite|improve this answer




















    • I understand all this, but defining $subseteq$ set-theoretically restricts $A$ to be a set in ZFC, not a set in $V$.
      – alex811
      Sep 9 at 13:43










    • @alex No, that really makes no sense. It is like claiming that $-3$ is not the additive inverse of 3 in the group $mathbb Z$ but rather in the theory of groups. You are mixing the theory the discussion takes place in, in this case ZFC, with the objects involved in the discussion, in this case the full set-theoretic universe $V$.
      – Andrés E. Caicedo
      Sep 9 at 13:49










    • I think the OP quite clearly indicates we are in the context of the axiomatic set theory. In that context $operatornamedom$ has a strict definition and it is not the (unstrict) definition you are using.
      – Adayah
      Sep 9 at 13:58

















    up vote
    0
    down vote













    Well, $xsubseteq x$ holds for every $x$. So, if you were write down the definition of $operatornamedom(subseteq)$ you'd get $x:(exists y)(xsubseteq y)$, which is a subclass of $V$, but by the first sentence $V$ is part of $operatornamedom(subseteq)$.






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      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes








      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes








      up vote
      1
      down vote













      $V$ is the common name for the collection of all sets (which doesn't exists as a set, as implied by the Russell's paradox, therefore we often refer to it as the class of all sets). As you probably know,



      $$operatornamedom R = x : (exists y) , (x, y) in R . $$



      Since for each set $A$ there is a set $B$ (for instance, $B = A$) such that $A subseteq B$, we have that if $subseteq$ were a set, then $operatornamedom subseteq$ would be the set of all sets $V$, which is a contradiction.






      share|cite|improve this answer


























        up vote
        1
        down vote













        $V$ is the common name for the collection of all sets (which doesn't exists as a set, as implied by the Russell's paradox, therefore we often refer to it as the class of all sets). As you probably know,



        $$operatornamedom R = x : (exists y) , (x, y) in R . $$



        Since for each set $A$ there is a set $B$ (for instance, $B = A$) such that $A subseteq B$, we have that if $subseteq$ were a set, then $operatornamedom subseteq$ would be the set of all sets $V$, which is a contradiction.






        share|cite|improve this answer
























          up vote
          1
          down vote










          up vote
          1
          down vote









          $V$ is the common name for the collection of all sets (which doesn't exists as a set, as implied by the Russell's paradox, therefore we often refer to it as the class of all sets). As you probably know,



          $$operatornamedom R = x : (exists y) , (x, y) in R . $$



          Since for each set $A$ there is a set $B$ (for instance, $B = A$) such that $A subseteq B$, we have that if $subseteq$ were a set, then $operatornamedom subseteq$ would be the set of all sets $V$, which is a contradiction.






          share|cite|improve this answer














          $V$ is the common name for the collection of all sets (which doesn't exists as a set, as implied by the Russell's paradox, therefore we often refer to it as the class of all sets). As you probably know,



          $$operatornamedom R = x : (exists y) , (x, y) in R . $$



          Since for each set $A$ there is a set $B$ (for instance, $B = A$) such that $A subseteq B$, we have that if $subseteq$ were a set, then $operatornamedom subseteq$ would be the set of all sets $V$, which is a contradiction.







          share|cite|improve this answer














          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer








          edited Sep 9 at 13:47

























          answered Sep 9 at 13:38









          Adayah

          6,781823




          6,781823




















              up vote
              0
              down vote













              The symbol $V$ is being used, presumably, to stand for the "universe" of all sets, which is a class but is not a set. To say that "dom($subseteq$) is $V$" simply means that in the sentence $A subseteq B$, you may replace $A$ by any set, i.e. any element of $V$, and you may replace $B$ by any set, and having made those replacements the sentence will then have a truth value.






              share|cite|improve this answer




















              • I understand all this, but defining $subseteq$ set-theoretically restricts $A$ to be a set in ZFC, not a set in $V$.
                – alex811
                Sep 9 at 13:43










              • @alex No, that really makes no sense. It is like claiming that $-3$ is not the additive inverse of 3 in the group $mathbb Z$ but rather in the theory of groups. You are mixing the theory the discussion takes place in, in this case ZFC, with the objects involved in the discussion, in this case the full set-theoretic universe $V$.
                – Andrés E. Caicedo
                Sep 9 at 13:49










              • I think the OP quite clearly indicates we are in the context of the axiomatic set theory. In that context $operatornamedom$ has a strict definition and it is not the (unstrict) definition you are using.
                – Adayah
                Sep 9 at 13:58














              up vote
              0
              down vote













              The symbol $V$ is being used, presumably, to stand for the "universe" of all sets, which is a class but is not a set. To say that "dom($subseteq$) is $V$" simply means that in the sentence $A subseteq B$, you may replace $A$ by any set, i.e. any element of $V$, and you may replace $B$ by any set, and having made those replacements the sentence will then have a truth value.






              share|cite|improve this answer




















              • I understand all this, but defining $subseteq$ set-theoretically restricts $A$ to be a set in ZFC, not a set in $V$.
                – alex811
                Sep 9 at 13:43










              • @alex No, that really makes no sense. It is like claiming that $-3$ is not the additive inverse of 3 in the group $mathbb Z$ but rather in the theory of groups. You are mixing the theory the discussion takes place in, in this case ZFC, with the objects involved in the discussion, in this case the full set-theoretic universe $V$.
                – Andrés E. Caicedo
                Sep 9 at 13:49










              • I think the OP quite clearly indicates we are in the context of the axiomatic set theory. In that context $operatornamedom$ has a strict definition and it is not the (unstrict) definition you are using.
                – Adayah
                Sep 9 at 13:58












              up vote
              0
              down vote










              up vote
              0
              down vote









              The symbol $V$ is being used, presumably, to stand for the "universe" of all sets, which is a class but is not a set. To say that "dom($subseteq$) is $V$" simply means that in the sentence $A subseteq B$, you may replace $A$ by any set, i.e. any element of $V$, and you may replace $B$ by any set, and having made those replacements the sentence will then have a truth value.






              share|cite|improve this answer












              The symbol $V$ is being used, presumably, to stand for the "universe" of all sets, which is a class but is not a set. To say that "dom($subseteq$) is $V$" simply means that in the sentence $A subseteq B$, you may replace $A$ by any set, i.e. any element of $V$, and you may replace $B$ by any set, and having made those replacements the sentence will then have a truth value.







              share|cite|improve this answer












              share|cite|improve this answer



              share|cite|improve this answer










              answered Sep 9 at 13:33









              Lee Mosher

              46.2k33579




              46.2k33579











              • I understand all this, but defining $subseteq$ set-theoretically restricts $A$ to be a set in ZFC, not a set in $V$.
                – alex811
                Sep 9 at 13:43










              • @alex No, that really makes no sense. It is like claiming that $-3$ is not the additive inverse of 3 in the group $mathbb Z$ but rather in the theory of groups. You are mixing the theory the discussion takes place in, in this case ZFC, with the objects involved in the discussion, in this case the full set-theoretic universe $V$.
                – Andrés E. Caicedo
                Sep 9 at 13:49










              • I think the OP quite clearly indicates we are in the context of the axiomatic set theory. In that context $operatornamedom$ has a strict definition and it is not the (unstrict) definition you are using.
                – Adayah
                Sep 9 at 13:58
















              • I understand all this, but defining $subseteq$ set-theoretically restricts $A$ to be a set in ZFC, not a set in $V$.
                – alex811
                Sep 9 at 13:43










              • @alex No, that really makes no sense. It is like claiming that $-3$ is not the additive inverse of 3 in the group $mathbb Z$ but rather in the theory of groups. You are mixing the theory the discussion takes place in, in this case ZFC, with the objects involved in the discussion, in this case the full set-theoretic universe $V$.
                – Andrés E. Caicedo
                Sep 9 at 13:49










              • I think the OP quite clearly indicates we are in the context of the axiomatic set theory. In that context $operatornamedom$ has a strict definition and it is not the (unstrict) definition you are using.
                – Adayah
                Sep 9 at 13:58















              I understand all this, but defining $subseteq$ set-theoretically restricts $A$ to be a set in ZFC, not a set in $V$.
              – alex811
              Sep 9 at 13:43




              I understand all this, but defining $subseteq$ set-theoretically restricts $A$ to be a set in ZFC, not a set in $V$.
              – alex811
              Sep 9 at 13:43












              @alex No, that really makes no sense. It is like claiming that $-3$ is not the additive inverse of 3 in the group $mathbb Z$ but rather in the theory of groups. You are mixing the theory the discussion takes place in, in this case ZFC, with the objects involved in the discussion, in this case the full set-theoretic universe $V$.
              – Andrés E. Caicedo
              Sep 9 at 13:49




              @alex No, that really makes no sense. It is like claiming that $-3$ is not the additive inverse of 3 in the group $mathbb Z$ but rather in the theory of groups. You are mixing the theory the discussion takes place in, in this case ZFC, with the objects involved in the discussion, in this case the full set-theoretic universe $V$.
              – Andrés E. Caicedo
              Sep 9 at 13:49












              I think the OP quite clearly indicates we are in the context of the axiomatic set theory. In that context $operatornamedom$ has a strict definition and it is not the (unstrict) definition you are using.
              – Adayah
              Sep 9 at 13:58




              I think the OP quite clearly indicates we are in the context of the axiomatic set theory. In that context $operatornamedom$ has a strict definition and it is not the (unstrict) definition you are using.
              – Adayah
              Sep 9 at 13:58










              up vote
              0
              down vote













              Well, $xsubseteq x$ holds for every $x$. So, if you were write down the definition of $operatornamedom(subseteq)$ you'd get $x:(exists y)(xsubseteq y)$, which is a subclass of $V$, but by the first sentence $V$ is part of $operatornamedom(subseteq)$.






              share|cite|improve this answer
























                up vote
                0
                down vote













                Well, $xsubseteq x$ holds for every $x$. So, if you were write down the definition of $operatornamedom(subseteq)$ you'd get $x:(exists y)(xsubseteq y)$, which is a subclass of $V$, but by the first sentence $V$ is part of $operatornamedom(subseteq)$.






                share|cite|improve this answer






















                  up vote
                  0
                  down vote










                  up vote
                  0
                  down vote









                  Well, $xsubseteq x$ holds for every $x$. So, if you were write down the definition of $operatornamedom(subseteq)$ you'd get $x:(exists y)(xsubseteq y)$, which is a subclass of $V$, but by the first sentence $V$ is part of $operatornamedom(subseteq)$.






                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  Well, $xsubseteq x$ holds for every $x$. So, if you were write down the definition of $operatornamedom(subseteq)$ you'd get $x:(exists y)(xsubseteq y)$, which is a subclass of $V$, but by the first sentence $V$ is part of $operatornamedom(subseteq)$.







                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer










                  answered Sep 9 at 13:36









                  hartkp

                  42123




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