If a topological space is regular-$G_delta$, is it normal?

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Let $X$ be a topological space.



  1. We say it is normal if for any two disjoint closed sets $A$ and $B$, we can find open sets $U$ and $V$ such that $A subset U$, $B subset V$, and $U cap V = varnothing$.


  2. We say $X$ is regular $G_delta$, if for any closed set $A$ in $X$, we can find a countable collection of open sets $U_n: n in mathbb N$ such that $$A = bigcap_nin mathbb N overline U_n,quad mathrmandquad forall n in mathbb N: A subset U_n.$$


I'm trying to prove that if $X$ is regular $G_delta$, then $X$ is normal. Here is my attempted proof outline (which doesn't work!)



Let $A$ and $B$ be disjoint closed subsets of $X$. Then $A$ and $B$ are regular $G_delta$ sets, so let $U_n:nin mathbb N$ be a collection of open sets each containing $A$, the intersection of whose closures is $A$, and $V_m:min mathbb N$ a collection of open sets each containing $B$, the intersection of whose closures is $B$. Without loss of generality we assume each $U_n$ is disjoint from $B$, and each $V_n$ is disjoint from $A$. (We can do this by taking intersections with $Xsetminus B$ and $Xsetminus A$ respectively.) Since $A$ and $B$ are disjoint, there must exist $n in mathbb N$ such that $overline U_n cap B = varnothing$. Similarly, pick $minmathbb N$ such that $overline V_m cap A = varnothing$. Then $U_nsetminus overlineV_m$ is an open set containing $A$, and $V_m setminus overline U_n$ is an open set containing $B$, whose intersection is empty. Thus $X$ is normal.



The reason it doesn't work is because the existence of $n$ such that $overline U_n cap B = varnothing$ is not true - If I try to prove by contradiction that such an $n$ exists, I will need to prove that a countable intersection of nested non-empty closed sets is non-empty, but this is not true in general.



I've also attempted to disprove this. The Moore plane is an example of a non-normal topological space such that every closed set is $G_delta$. However, I was unable to show that every closed set is regular $G_delta$.



Could someone provide some guidance? Thank you







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    up vote
    2
    down vote

    favorite












    Let $X$ be a topological space.



    1. We say it is normal if for any two disjoint closed sets $A$ and $B$, we can find open sets $U$ and $V$ such that $A subset U$, $B subset V$, and $U cap V = varnothing$.


    2. We say $X$ is regular $G_delta$, if for any closed set $A$ in $X$, we can find a countable collection of open sets $U_n: n in mathbb N$ such that $$A = bigcap_nin mathbb N overline U_n,quad mathrmandquad forall n in mathbb N: A subset U_n.$$


    I'm trying to prove that if $X$ is regular $G_delta$, then $X$ is normal. Here is my attempted proof outline (which doesn't work!)



    Let $A$ and $B$ be disjoint closed subsets of $X$. Then $A$ and $B$ are regular $G_delta$ sets, so let $U_n:nin mathbb N$ be a collection of open sets each containing $A$, the intersection of whose closures is $A$, and $V_m:min mathbb N$ a collection of open sets each containing $B$, the intersection of whose closures is $B$. Without loss of generality we assume each $U_n$ is disjoint from $B$, and each $V_n$ is disjoint from $A$. (We can do this by taking intersections with $Xsetminus B$ and $Xsetminus A$ respectively.) Since $A$ and $B$ are disjoint, there must exist $n in mathbb N$ such that $overline U_n cap B = varnothing$. Similarly, pick $minmathbb N$ such that $overline V_m cap A = varnothing$. Then $U_nsetminus overlineV_m$ is an open set containing $A$, and $V_m setminus overline U_n$ is an open set containing $B$, whose intersection is empty. Thus $X$ is normal.



    The reason it doesn't work is because the existence of $n$ such that $overline U_n cap B = varnothing$ is not true - If I try to prove by contradiction that such an $n$ exists, I will need to prove that a countable intersection of nested non-empty closed sets is non-empty, but this is not true in general.



    I've also attempted to disprove this. The Moore plane is an example of a non-normal topological space such that every closed set is $G_delta$. However, I was unable to show that every closed set is regular $G_delta$.



    Could someone provide some guidance? Thank you







    share|cite|improve this question
























      up vote
      2
      down vote

      favorite









      up vote
      2
      down vote

      favorite











      Let $X$ be a topological space.



      1. We say it is normal if for any two disjoint closed sets $A$ and $B$, we can find open sets $U$ and $V$ such that $A subset U$, $B subset V$, and $U cap V = varnothing$.


      2. We say $X$ is regular $G_delta$, if for any closed set $A$ in $X$, we can find a countable collection of open sets $U_n: n in mathbb N$ such that $$A = bigcap_nin mathbb N overline U_n,quad mathrmandquad forall n in mathbb N: A subset U_n.$$


      I'm trying to prove that if $X$ is regular $G_delta$, then $X$ is normal. Here is my attempted proof outline (which doesn't work!)



      Let $A$ and $B$ be disjoint closed subsets of $X$. Then $A$ and $B$ are regular $G_delta$ sets, so let $U_n:nin mathbb N$ be a collection of open sets each containing $A$, the intersection of whose closures is $A$, and $V_m:min mathbb N$ a collection of open sets each containing $B$, the intersection of whose closures is $B$. Without loss of generality we assume each $U_n$ is disjoint from $B$, and each $V_n$ is disjoint from $A$. (We can do this by taking intersections with $Xsetminus B$ and $Xsetminus A$ respectively.) Since $A$ and $B$ are disjoint, there must exist $n in mathbb N$ such that $overline U_n cap B = varnothing$. Similarly, pick $minmathbb N$ such that $overline V_m cap A = varnothing$. Then $U_nsetminus overlineV_m$ is an open set containing $A$, and $V_m setminus overline U_n$ is an open set containing $B$, whose intersection is empty. Thus $X$ is normal.



      The reason it doesn't work is because the existence of $n$ such that $overline U_n cap B = varnothing$ is not true - If I try to prove by contradiction that such an $n$ exists, I will need to prove that a countable intersection of nested non-empty closed sets is non-empty, but this is not true in general.



      I've also attempted to disprove this. The Moore plane is an example of a non-normal topological space such that every closed set is $G_delta$. However, I was unable to show that every closed set is regular $G_delta$.



      Could someone provide some guidance? Thank you







      share|cite|improve this question














      Let $X$ be a topological space.



      1. We say it is normal if for any two disjoint closed sets $A$ and $B$, we can find open sets $U$ and $V$ such that $A subset U$, $B subset V$, and $U cap V = varnothing$.


      2. We say $X$ is regular $G_delta$, if for any closed set $A$ in $X$, we can find a countable collection of open sets $U_n: n in mathbb N$ such that $$A = bigcap_nin mathbb N overline U_n,quad mathrmandquad forall n in mathbb N: A subset U_n.$$


      I'm trying to prove that if $X$ is regular $G_delta$, then $X$ is normal. Here is my attempted proof outline (which doesn't work!)



      Let $A$ and $B$ be disjoint closed subsets of $X$. Then $A$ and $B$ are regular $G_delta$ sets, so let $U_n:nin mathbb N$ be a collection of open sets each containing $A$, the intersection of whose closures is $A$, and $V_m:min mathbb N$ a collection of open sets each containing $B$, the intersection of whose closures is $B$. Without loss of generality we assume each $U_n$ is disjoint from $B$, and each $V_n$ is disjoint from $A$. (We can do this by taking intersections with $Xsetminus B$ and $Xsetminus A$ respectively.) Since $A$ and $B$ are disjoint, there must exist $n in mathbb N$ such that $overline U_n cap B = varnothing$. Similarly, pick $minmathbb N$ such that $overline V_m cap A = varnothing$. Then $U_nsetminus overlineV_m$ is an open set containing $A$, and $V_m setminus overline U_n$ is an open set containing $B$, whose intersection is empty. Thus $X$ is normal.



      The reason it doesn't work is because the existence of $n$ such that $overline U_n cap B = varnothing$ is not true - If I try to prove by contradiction that such an $n$ exists, I will need to prove that a countable intersection of nested non-empty closed sets is non-empty, but this is not true in general.



      I've also attempted to disprove this. The Moore plane is an example of a non-normal topological space such that every closed set is $G_delta$. However, I was unable to show that every closed set is regular $G_delta$.



      Could someone provide some guidance? Thank you









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      share|cite|improve this question




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      edited Aug 25 at 0:21

























      asked Aug 24 at 5:31









      Harambe

      5,80121843




      5,80121843




















          1 Answer
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          active

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          up vote
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          down vote



          accepted










          For future reference - if anybody has the same question:
          I posted the question to MathOverflow and got an answer https://mathoverflow.net/questions/309139/does-regular-g-delta-imply-normal



          The crux is: use the characterisation




          $X$ is normal iff for each closed set $F$ of $X$ and each open set $O$ with $F subseteq O$, there are open sets $W_n$, $n in mathbbN$ of $X$ such that $F subseteq bigcup_n W_n$ and for all $n$, $overlineW_n subseteq O$.




          Then one can answer my question in the affirmative: Regular $G_delta$ implies normal.






          share|cite|improve this answer




















          • And thus perfectly normal and hence hereditarily normal (or completely normal, as it's also called).
            – Henno Brandsma
            Aug 26 at 21:41










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          1 Answer
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          active

          oldest

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          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

          votes








          up vote
          0
          down vote



          accepted










          For future reference - if anybody has the same question:
          I posted the question to MathOverflow and got an answer https://mathoverflow.net/questions/309139/does-regular-g-delta-imply-normal



          The crux is: use the characterisation




          $X$ is normal iff for each closed set $F$ of $X$ and each open set $O$ with $F subseteq O$, there are open sets $W_n$, $n in mathbbN$ of $X$ such that $F subseteq bigcup_n W_n$ and for all $n$, $overlineW_n subseteq O$.




          Then one can answer my question in the affirmative: Regular $G_delta$ implies normal.






          share|cite|improve this answer




















          • And thus perfectly normal and hence hereditarily normal (or completely normal, as it's also called).
            – Henno Brandsma
            Aug 26 at 21:41














          up vote
          0
          down vote



          accepted










          For future reference - if anybody has the same question:
          I posted the question to MathOverflow and got an answer https://mathoverflow.net/questions/309139/does-regular-g-delta-imply-normal



          The crux is: use the characterisation




          $X$ is normal iff for each closed set $F$ of $X$ and each open set $O$ with $F subseteq O$, there are open sets $W_n$, $n in mathbbN$ of $X$ such that $F subseteq bigcup_n W_n$ and for all $n$, $overlineW_n subseteq O$.




          Then one can answer my question in the affirmative: Regular $G_delta$ implies normal.






          share|cite|improve this answer




















          • And thus perfectly normal and hence hereditarily normal (or completely normal, as it's also called).
            – Henno Brandsma
            Aug 26 at 21:41












          up vote
          0
          down vote



          accepted







          up vote
          0
          down vote



          accepted






          For future reference - if anybody has the same question:
          I posted the question to MathOverflow and got an answer https://mathoverflow.net/questions/309139/does-regular-g-delta-imply-normal



          The crux is: use the characterisation




          $X$ is normal iff for each closed set $F$ of $X$ and each open set $O$ with $F subseteq O$, there are open sets $W_n$, $n in mathbbN$ of $X$ such that $F subseteq bigcup_n W_n$ and for all $n$, $overlineW_n subseteq O$.




          Then one can answer my question in the affirmative: Regular $G_delta$ implies normal.






          share|cite|improve this answer












          For future reference - if anybody has the same question:
          I posted the question to MathOverflow and got an answer https://mathoverflow.net/questions/309139/does-regular-g-delta-imply-normal



          The crux is: use the characterisation




          $X$ is normal iff for each closed set $F$ of $X$ and each open set $O$ with $F subseteq O$, there are open sets $W_n$, $n in mathbbN$ of $X$ such that $F subseteq bigcup_n W_n$ and for all $n$, $overlineW_n subseteq O$.




          Then one can answer my question in the affirmative: Regular $G_delta$ implies normal.







          share|cite|improve this answer












          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered Aug 26 at 21:35









          Harambe

          5,80121843




          5,80121843











          • And thus perfectly normal and hence hereditarily normal (or completely normal, as it's also called).
            – Henno Brandsma
            Aug 26 at 21:41
















          • And thus perfectly normal and hence hereditarily normal (or completely normal, as it's also called).
            – Henno Brandsma
            Aug 26 at 21:41















          And thus perfectly normal and hence hereditarily normal (or completely normal, as it's also called).
          – Henno Brandsma
          Aug 26 at 21:41




          And thus perfectly normal and hence hereditarily normal (or completely normal, as it's also called).
          – Henno Brandsma
          Aug 26 at 21:41

















           

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