How is a mindstream associated with human forms?

The name of the pictureThe name of the pictureThe name of the pictureClash Royale CLAN TAG#URR8PPP











up vote
2
down vote

favorite












I think this question is distinct from those asking what is reincarnated. I understand the distinction between the mindstream and a soul, and the simile of passing on a flame. I also understand that an association is made between a mindstream and human form, most often in the womb. What is it that makes and maintains this mental-physical association endure throughout a human lifetime? Why is there a tendency for the association to result in a first-person perspective/sense of self?







share|improve this question




















  • Descartes believed it was the pineal gland that moderated the mind/body interaction. Dispensing with that, I think your question amounts to how does mere awareness become associated with a physical body if it is not an emergent feature of the physical body? Do you agree that this is what the question amounts to?
    – Yeshe Tenley
    Aug 8 at 15:22











  • To some extent I think I'm asking about the Buddhist view of the mind-body problem. More specifically I'm interested in understanding the continuity of these processes in relation to organic life. I imagine this could explain a mechanism underlying memory of past lives (for example).
    – Paul Sharpe
    Aug 9 at 11:40














up vote
2
down vote

favorite












I think this question is distinct from those asking what is reincarnated. I understand the distinction between the mindstream and a soul, and the simile of passing on a flame. I also understand that an association is made between a mindstream and human form, most often in the womb. What is it that makes and maintains this mental-physical association endure throughout a human lifetime? Why is there a tendency for the association to result in a first-person perspective/sense of self?







share|improve this question




















  • Descartes believed it was the pineal gland that moderated the mind/body interaction. Dispensing with that, I think your question amounts to how does mere awareness become associated with a physical body if it is not an emergent feature of the physical body? Do you agree that this is what the question amounts to?
    – Yeshe Tenley
    Aug 8 at 15:22











  • To some extent I think I'm asking about the Buddhist view of the mind-body problem. More specifically I'm interested in understanding the continuity of these processes in relation to organic life. I imagine this could explain a mechanism underlying memory of past lives (for example).
    – Paul Sharpe
    Aug 9 at 11:40












up vote
2
down vote

favorite









up vote
2
down vote

favorite











I think this question is distinct from those asking what is reincarnated. I understand the distinction between the mindstream and a soul, and the simile of passing on a flame. I also understand that an association is made between a mindstream and human form, most often in the womb. What is it that makes and maintains this mental-physical association endure throughout a human lifetime? Why is there a tendency for the association to result in a first-person perspective/sense of self?







share|improve this question












I think this question is distinct from those asking what is reincarnated. I understand the distinction between the mindstream and a soul, and the simile of passing on a flame. I also understand that an association is made between a mindstream and human form, most often in the womb. What is it that makes and maintains this mental-physical association endure throughout a human lifetime? Why is there a tendency for the association to result in a first-person perspective/sense of self?









share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked Aug 8 at 11:02









Paul Sharpe

163




163











  • Descartes believed it was the pineal gland that moderated the mind/body interaction. Dispensing with that, I think your question amounts to how does mere awareness become associated with a physical body if it is not an emergent feature of the physical body? Do you agree that this is what the question amounts to?
    – Yeshe Tenley
    Aug 8 at 15:22











  • To some extent I think I'm asking about the Buddhist view of the mind-body problem. More specifically I'm interested in understanding the continuity of these processes in relation to organic life. I imagine this could explain a mechanism underlying memory of past lives (for example).
    – Paul Sharpe
    Aug 9 at 11:40
















  • Descartes believed it was the pineal gland that moderated the mind/body interaction. Dispensing with that, I think your question amounts to how does mere awareness become associated with a physical body if it is not an emergent feature of the physical body? Do you agree that this is what the question amounts to?
    – Yeshe Tenley
    Aug 8 at 15:22











  • To some extent I think I'm asking about the Buddhist view of the mind-body problem. More specifically I'm interested in understanding the continuity of these processes in relation to organic life. I imagine this could explain a mechanism underlying memory of past lives (for example).
    – Paul Sharpe
    Aug 9 at 11:40















Descartes believed it was the pineal gland that moderated the mind/body interaction. Dispensing with that, I think your question amounts to how does mere awareness become associated with a physical body if it is not an emergent feature of the physical body? Do you agree that this is what the question amounts to?
– Yeshe Tenley
Aug 8 at 15:22





Descartes believed it was the pineal gland that moderated the mind/body interaction. Dispensing with that, I think your question amounts to how does mere awareness become associated with a physical body if it is not an emergent feature of the physical body? Do you agree that this is what the question amounts to?
– Yeshe Tenley
Aug 8 at 15:22













To some extent I think I'm asking about the Buddhist view of the mind-body problem. More specifically I'm interested in understanding the continuity of these processes in relation to organic life. I imagine this could explain a mechanism underlying memory of past lives (for example).
– Paul Sharpe
Aug 9 at 11:40




To some extent I think I'm asking about the Buddhist view of the mind-body problem. More specifically I'm interested in understanding the continuity of these processes in relation to organic life. I imagine this could explain a mechanism underlying memory of past lives (for example).
– Paul Sharpe
Aug 9 at 11:40










4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
1
down vote














What is it that makes and maintains this mental-physical association endure throughout a human lifetime?




It's an ongoing conditioned process whereby a state conditions the next.
Imagine a line of domino's. You tip one over, that one tips the next over and so on. There are the domino's; and there are different (invisible) forces playing a part in how the next domino is tipped.
(It's not a great comparison though. Cause the domino's in the line are already there when in actuality that's not the case. But I haven't found a better comparison yet, the candle simile doesn't work for me.)



So, a state of matter-mind-combination ceases and makes room for the appearing of the next matter-mind-combination (at least in the sense realm).
The ceasing of the mind-matter-combination is a condition for the arising of the next. But so are different other conditioning forces.



The Patthana (last part of the Abhidhamma) explains 24 different conditioning forces that play a role in the arising of the next states and the maintaining of the process. Important is also to understand that there are always several conditioning forces active, not just one.
You might want to read this book. Or just the chapter of the Patthana in the compendium of the Abhidhamma, by Bhikkhu Bodhi.



By the way, at a certain point it's possible to see the conditioning of this ongoing arising and ceasing in meditation. It's fascinating, at least for me.




Why is there a tendency for the association to result in a first-person perspective/sense of self?




That's due to conditioning. Delusion (which is there when one experiences this first-person sense of self) is basically embedded in every newly arising matter-mind-combo. It has to be broken down, replaced by new conditioning.



The practice of what's usually called vipassana meditation (or meditation based on the Satipatthana sutta) makes this possible. From own experience I can say that with vipassana the experience of first person becomes the experience of being the observer (2nd person) of the ongoing arising and ceasing of the matter-mind-combo. And later the experience shifts even further away to more and more neutral, so the feeling of being the observer also drops away. By then there is no more experience of liking, disliking; no identification with what ever khanda, no kilesa and so on. (Upekkha nana).



So, it's a matter of replacing old conditioning with new one. That can take time though. Depending, again, on the way your mind stream is conditioned and how quickly your mind can let go of old ideas and so on.



Hope this helps a bit.






share|improve this answer



























    up vote
    1
    down vote













    There is no single mindstream, the illusion of identity is a mind-made imputation.



    Instead, mind can be seen as an infinitely spanning graph of interconnected concurrent processes.



    Seeing a single identity in that is exactly the result of ignorant reification that Buddha and Buddhism are trying to save the "sentient beings" from.



    The way a sense of single-identity develops is described in the teaching of twelve nidanas. In modern terms it's a self-perpetuating semiotic process that develops from vague to increasingly more concrete delineation of entities (objects and the subject). To boil it down to a single principle, pursuing desirable objects is the act that by implication(inference) leads to semiotic emergence of "that" (object) and "this" (subject). This self-emergent tendency is then reinforced by the culture that carries it on from generation to generation.






    share|improve this answer




















    • can you suggest a Sutra or other source that expands on the illusion of identity specifically? Are there multiple mere awareness or only one? I guess another way of asking it... are there multiple moments of distinct qualia for any given moment of time?
      – Yeshe Tenley
      Aug 8 at 15:36










    • IMNSHO the illusion of identity is exactly what anatta, shunyata, twelve nidanas, and madhyamaka -- are all about. For a honorary Vajrayana mention, check out "Lamp of Mahamudra" by Tsele Natsok Rangdrol. Awareness is ephemeral phenomena that involves both local as well as universal constituents. So, not one, not multiple - it's not countable ("much" not "many").
      – Andrei Volkov♦
      Aug 8 at 16:13







    • 1




      How about conventionally speaking? Is it conventionally correct to say that Andrei and Yeshe are two different mindstreams? To say that we share a single mindstream? That our moments of qualia are one and the same? Different? If you stipulate that it is conventionally correct to say that we have two different mindstreams just like we have two different bodies, then what of the OP's question from a conventional standpoint? How does awareness bind to a particular body? Or is it emergent from the body?
      – Yeshe Tenley
      Aug 8 at 17:17











    • Conventionally speaking, it's partially distinct and partially shared. It's partially shared, for example, as we are discussing this topic and responding to each other's comments. At other times, when the two of us are not interacting, our mindstreams are partially shared with other parts of the environment. Awareness is not really tied to a particular body, it's just an assumption we make, institutionalized through habit and inertia. I can totally imagine a connected society of the future evolving a different paradigm, one where the notion of inter-mind would be explicitly accepted.
      – Andrei Volkov♦
      Aug 8 at 17:43


















    up vote
    1
    down vote













    This mental-physical association you speak of, is called namarupa or name-and-form in Buddhism. In SN 12.2, it is described as:




    "And what is name-&-form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, &
    attention: This is called name. The four great elements, and the form
    dependent on the four great elements: This is called form. This name &
    this form are called name-&-form.




    In dependent origination, the requisite condition of aging and death is birth. The requisite condition of birth is becoming. The requisite condition of becoming is clinging. The requisite condition of clinging is craving. The requisite condition of craving is feeling. The requisite condition of feeling is contact. The requisite condition of contact is name-and-form. This is according to DN 15.



    But what is the requisite condition of name-and-form?



    According to the Maha-nidana Sutta (DN 15):




    Name-and-form



    "'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form.'
    Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from
    consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form. If
    consciousness were not to descend into the mother's womb, would
    name-and-form take shape in the womb?"



    "No, lord."



    "If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to depart,
    would name-and-form be produced for this world?"



    "No, lord."



    "If the consciousness of the young boy or girl were to be cut off,
    would name-and-form ripen, grow, and reach maturity?"



    "No, lord."



    "Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this
    is a requisite condition for name-and-form, i.e., consciousness."



    Consciousness



    "'From name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.'
    Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from
    name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness. If
    consciousness were not to gain a foothold in name-and-form, would a
    coming-into-play of the origination of birth, aging, death, and stress
    in the future be discerned?



    "No, lord."



    "Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this
    is a requisite condition for consciousness, i.e., name-and-form.



    "This is the extent to which there is birth, aging, death, passing
    away, and re-arising. This is the extent to which there are means of
    designation, expression, and delineation. This is the extent to which
    the sphere of discernment extends, the extent to which the cycle
    revolves for the manifesting (discernibility) of this world — i.e.,
    name-and-form together with consciousness.




    In Piya Tan's commentary on Dependent Arising:




    In Diagram 5a, the viññāṇa (consciousness) of the looped version is
    actually cognitive consciousness, which comprises both
    “consciousness” — as the 6 sense-bases and the 6 consciousness;
    hence, there is no need for mention of the 6 sense-bases again.
    However, in the looped versions of Diagram 5b, the nāma-rūpa that
    feeds viññāṇa is what, in Abhidhamma, is called the bhav’aṅga, the
    “birth continuum.” At the moment of dying, this bhav’aṅga is the
    cuti,citta, “death-consciousness,” and is also the paṭisandhi,citta,
    “rebirth-consciousness” of the next life. The modern term for this is
    the existential consciousness.




    So, here, two types of consciousness are described - existential consciousness or rebirth-consciousness that is the requisite condition of name-and-form, and name-and-form is the requisite condition for cognitive consciousness (eye consciousness, ear consciousness, nose consciousness, tongue consciousness, body consciousness and mind consciousness).



    The Madhupindika Sutta (MN 18) has the formula "dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises; dependent on ear & sounds, ear-consciousness arises" and so on. So, that provides the connection between cognitive consciousness and the six sense-bases in different versions of the dependent origination's links.



    In his commentary on Viññāṇa (Consciousness), Piya Tan wrote:




    A similar description is given in the Mahā,nidāna Sutta (D 15), where
    it is said that if no consciousness were “to descend into a mother’s
    womb,” or “were to depart” after that, nāma-rūpa would not form; or,
    if consciousness “were to be cut off” in a young person, nāma-rūpa
    would not develop and mature. In simple terms, this means that our
    sensing the world or our sense experiences or sense stimuli are what
    make us, create what we are.
    This mutual conditioning of Viññāṇa and
    nāma-rūpa shows that no part of an individual should be regarded as
    having independent existence or selfhood. This fact is clearly shown
    in the stock formula found in the Mahā Punnama Sutta and elsewhere:




    Whatever kind of consciousness there is, whether past, future, or
    present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior,
    far or near — one sees all consciousnesses as they really are with
    right wisdom, thus: “This is not mine; this I am not; this is not my
    self.”It is when one knows thus, when one sees thus, that in regard to
    this body with its consciousness and all external signs, there is no
    latent tendency to I-making, to mine-making and to conceit.





    Further relationship between consciousness and name-and-form can be found in the Cetana Sutta (SN 12.38):




    [the Blessed One said,] "What one intends, what
    one arranges, and what one obsesses about: This is a support for the
    stationing of consciousness. There being a support, there is a landing
    [or: an establishing] of consciousness. When that consciousness lands
    and grows, there is the production of renewed becoming in the future.
    When there is the production of renewed becoming in the future, there
    is future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, &
    despair. Such is the origination of this entire mass of suffering &
    stress.



    "If one doesn't intend and doesn't arrange, but one still obsesses
    [about something], this is a support for the stationing of
    consciousness. There being a support, there is a landing of
    consciousness. When that consciousness lands and grows, there is the
    production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is the
    production of renewed becoming in the future, there is future birth,
    aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. Such
    [too] is the origination of this entire mass of suffering & stress.



    "But when one doesn't intend, arrange, or obsess [about anything],
    there is no support for the stationing of consciousness. There being
    no support, there is no landing of consciousness. When that
    consciousness doesn't land & grow, there is no production of renewed
    becoming in the future. When there is no production of renewed
    becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging & death,
    sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair. Such is the cessation
    of this entire mass of suffering & stress."



    Notes: The seven obsessions are: the obsession of sensual passion, the
    obsession of resistance, the obsession of views, the obsession of
    uncertainty, the obsession of conceit, the obsession of passion for
    becoming, and the obsession of ignorance. See AN 7.12.




    So, what one obsesses over (clinging), creates the landing of consciousness for the future rebirth. That's existential consciousness. With existential consciousness as the requisite condition, comes name-and-form. But from name-and-form as the requisite condition, comes cognitive consciousness, which is the requisite condition for contact, which is the requisite condition for feeling, which is the requisite condition for craving, which is the requisite condition for clinging, (then becoming, birth, ageing and death). Clinging here then is used to create the landing for the future existential consciousness.



    So, this is how the name-and-form comes about and endures.



    It is also interesting that the third noble truth says that to end this cycle, craving must be ended. That cuts the cycle.






    share|improve this answer






















    • Useful references, thanks. How does consciousness "descend into the mother's womb"?
      – Paul Sharpe
      Aug 9 at 11:50


















    up vote
    0
    down vote













    The Buddha did not teach about an impersonal reincarnated mind-stream. This idea comes from later people.



    Any teachings taught by the Buddha that are interpreted to mean "reincarnation" are based in the view that a "self" or "person" is reincarnated.



    If a "self" was not reincarnated then there would be no incentive to be moral.



    The Pali suttas say teachings that side with morality also side with the view of "self" (MN 117).



    The common neo-Buddhist view that impersonal reincarnation occurs negates the purpose and efficacy of both the higher & lower teachings.



    Not viewing absolute impermanence negates Nibbana & liberation.



    Not viewing self in reincarnation negates morality.






    share|improve this answer




















    • I agree. But it is invalid to say who takes rebirth according to Dhamma. The right question is depending upon what conditions birth comes to be ? The answer is depending upon craving the birth comes to be.
      – Dheeraj Verma
      Aug 8 at 13:55










    Your Answer







    StackExchange.ready(function()
    var channelOptions =
    tags: "".split(" "),
    id: "565"
    ;
    initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

    StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
    // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
    if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
    StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
    createEditor();
    );

    else
    createEditor();

    );

    function createEditor()
    StackExchange.prepareEditor(
    heartbeatType: 'answer',
    convertImagesToLinks: false,
    noModals: false,
    showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
    reputationToPostImages: null,
    bindNavPrevention: true,
    postfix: "",
    noCode: true, onDemand: true,
    discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
    ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
    );



    );








     

    draft saved


    draft discarded


















    StackExchange.ready(
    function ()
    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fbuddhism.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f28584%2fhow-is-a-mindstream-associated-with-human-forms%23new-answer', 'question_page');

    );

    Post as a guest






























    4 Answers
    4






    active

    oldest

    votes








    4 Answers
    4






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes








    up vote
    1
    down vote














    What is it that makes and maintains this mental-physical association endure throughout a human lifetime?




    It's an ongoing conditioned process whereby a state conditions the next.
    Imagine a line of domino's. You tip one over, that one tips the next over and so on. There are the domino's; and there are different (invisible) forces playing a part in how the next domino is tipped.
    (It's not a great comparison though. Cause the domino's in the line are already there when in actuality that's not the case. But I haven't found a better comparison yet, the candle simile doesn't work for me.)



    So, a state of matter-mind-combination ceases and makes room for the appearing of the next matter-mind-combination (at least in the sense realm).
    The ceasing of the mind-matter-combination is a condition for the arising of the next. But so are different other conditioning forces.



    The Patthana (last part of the Abhidhamma) explains 24 different conditioning forces that play a role in the arising of the next states and the maintaining of the process. Important is also to understand that there are always several conditioning forces active, not just one.
    You might want to read this book. Or just the chapter of the Patthana in the compendium of the Abhidhamma, by Bhikkhu Bodhi.



    By the way, at a certain point it's possible to see the conditioning of this ongoing arising and ceasing in meditation. It's fascinating, at least for me.




    Why is there a tendency for the association to result in a first-person perspective/sense of self?




    That's due to conditioning. Delusion (which is there when one experiences this first-person sense of self) is basically embedded in every newly arising matter-mind-combo. It has to be broken down, replaced by new conditioning.



    The practice of what's usually called vipassana meditation (or meditation based on the Satipatthana sutta) makes this possible. From own experience I can say that with vipassana the experience of first person becomes the experience of being the observer (2nd person) of the ongoing arising and ceasing of the matter-mind-combo. And later the experience shifts even further away to more and more neutral, so the feeling of being the observer also drops away. By then there is no more experience of liking, disliking; no identification with what ever khanda, no kilesa and so on. (Upekkha nana).



    So, it's a matter of replacing old conditioning with new one. That can take time though. Depending, again, on the way your mind stream is conditioned and how quickly your mind can let go of old ideas and so on.



    Hope this helps a bit.






    share|improve this answer
























      up vote
      1
      down vote














      What is it that makes and maintains this mental-physical association endure throughout a human lifetime?




      It's an ongoing conditioned process whereby a state conditions the next.
      Imagine a line of domino's. You tip one over, that one tips the next over and so on. There are the domino's; and there are different (invisible) forces playing a part in how the next domino is tipped.
      (It's not a great comparison though. Cause the domino's in the line are already there when in actuality that's not the case. But I haven't found a better comparison yet, the candle simile doesn't work for me.)



      So, a state of matter-mind-combination ceases and makes room for the appearing of the next matter-mind-combination (at least in the sense realm).
      The ceasing of the mind-matter-combination is a condition for the arising of the next. But so are different other conditioning forces.



      The Patthana (last part of the Abhidhamma) explains 24 different conditioning forces that play a role in the arising of the next states and the maintaining of the process. Important is also to understand that there are always several conditioning forces active, not just one.
      You might want to read this book. Or just the chapter of the Patthana in the compendium of the Abhidhamma, by Bhikkhu Bodhi.



      By the way, at a certain point it's possible to see the conditioning of this ongoing arising and ceasing in meditation. It's fascinating, at least for me.




      Why is there a tendency for the association to result in a first-person perspective/sense of self?




      That's due to conditioning. Delusion (which is there when one experiences this first-person sense of self) is basically embedded in every newly arising matter-mind-combo. It has to be broken down, replaced by new conditioning.



      The practice of what's usually called vipassana meditation (or meditation based on the Satipatthana sutta) makes this possible. From own experience I can say that with vipassana the experience of first person becomes the experience of being the observer (2nd person) of the ongoing arising and ceasing of the matter-mind-combo. And later the experience shifts even further away to more and more neutral, so the feeling of being the observer also drops away. By then there is no more experience of liking, disliking; no identification with what ever khanda, no kilesa and so on. (Upekkha nana).



      So, it's a matter of replacing old conditioning with new one. That can take time though. Depending, again, on the way your mind stream is conditioned and how quickly your mind can let go of old ideas and so on.



      Hope this helps a bit.






      share|improve this answer






















        up vote
        1
        down vote










        up vote
        1
        down vote










        What is it that makes and maintains this mental-physical association endure throughout a human lifetime?




        It's an ongoing conditioned process whereby a state conditions the next.
        Imagine a line of domino's. You tip one over, that one tips the next over and so on. There are the domino's; and there are different (invisible) forces playing a part in how the next domino is tipped.
        (It's not a great comparison though. Cause the domino's in the line are already there when in actuality that's not the case. But I haven't found a better comparison yet, the candle simile doesn't work for me.)



        So, a state of matter-mind-combination ceases and makes room for the appearing of the next matter-mind-combination (at least in the sense realm).
        The ceasing of the mind-matter-combination is a condition for the arising of the next. But so are different other conditioning forces.



        The Patthana (last part of the Abhidhamma) explains 24 different conditioning forces that play a role in the arising of the next states and the maintaining of the process. Important is also to understand that there are always several conditioning forces active, not just one.
        You might want to read this book. Or just the chapter of the Patthana in the compendium of the Abhidhamma, by Bhikkhu Bodhi.



        By the way, at a certain point it's possible to see the conditioning of this ongoing arising and ceasing in meditation. It's fascinating, at least for me.




        Why is there a tendency for the association to result in a first-person perspective/sense of self?




        That's due to conditioning. Delusion (which is there when one experiences this first-person sense of self) is basically embedded in every newly arising matter-mind-combo. It has to be broken down, replaced by new conditioning.



        The practice of what's usually called vipassana meditation (or meditation based on the Satipatthana sutta) makes this possible. From own experience I can say that with vipassana the experience of first person becomes the experience of being the observer (2nd person) of the ongoing arising and ceasing of the matter-mind-combo. And later the experience shifts even further away to more and more neutral, so the feeling of being the observer also drops away. By then there is no more experience of liking, disliking; no identification with what ever khanda, no kilesa and so on. (Upekkha nana).



        So, it's a matter of replacing old conditioning with new one. That can take time though. Depending, again, on the way your mind stream is conditioned and how quickly your mind can let go of old ideas and so on.



        Hope this helps a bit.






        share|improve this answer













        What is it that makes and maintains this mental-physical association endure throughout a human lifetime?




        It's an ongoing conditioned process whereby a state conditions the next.
        Imagine a line of domino's. You tip one over, that one tips the next over and so on. There are the domino's; and there are different (invisible) forces playing a part in how the next domino is tipped.
        (It's not a great comparison though. Cause the domino's in the line are already there when in actuality that's not the case. But I haven't found a better comparison yet, the candle simile doesn't work for me.)



        So, a state of matter-mind-combination ceases and makes room for the appearing of the next matter-mind-combination (at least in the sense realm).
        The ceasing of the mind-matter-combination is a condition for the arising of the next. But so are different other conditioning forces.



        The Patthana (last part of the Abhidhamma) explains 24 different conditioning forces that play a role in the arising of the next states and the maintaining of the process. Important is also to understand that there are always several conditioning forces active, not just one.
        You might want to read this book. Or just the chapter of the Patthana in the compendium of the Abhidhamma, by Bhikkhu Bodhi.



        By the way, at a certain point it's possible to see the conditioning of this ongoing arising and ceasing in meditation. It's fascinating, at least for me.




        Why is there a tendency for the association to result in a first-person perspective/sense of self?




        That's due to conditioning. Delusion (which is there when one experiences this first-person sense of self) is basically embedded in every newly arising matter-mind-combo. It has to be broken down, replaced by new conditioning.



        The practice of what's usually called vipassana meditation (or meditation based on the Satipatthana sutta) makes this possible. From own experience I can say that with vipassana the experience of first person becomes the experience of being the observer (2nd person) of the ongoing arising and ceasing of the matter-mind-combo. And later the experience shifts even further away to more and more neutral, so the feeling of being the observer also drops away. By then there is no more experience of liking, disliking; no identification with what ever khanda, no kilesa and so on. (Upekkha nana).



        So, it's a matter of replacing old conditioning with new one. That can take time though. Depending, again, on the way your mind stream is conditioned and how quickly your mind can let go of old ideas and so on.



        Hope this helps a bit.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered Aug 8 at 13:15









        Medhiṇī

        845214




        845214




















            up vote
            1
            down vote













            There is no single mindstream, the illusion of identity is a mind-made imputation.



            Instead, mind can be seen as an infinitely spanning graph of interconnected concurrent processes.



            Seeing a single identity in that is exactly the result of ignorant reification that Buddha and Buddhism are trying to save the "sentient beings" from.



            The way a sense of single-identity develops is described in the teaching of twelve nidanas. In modern terms it's a self-perpetuating semiotic process that develops from vague to increasingly more concrete delineation of entities (objects and the subject). To boil it down to a single principle, pursuing desirable objects is the act that by implication(inference) leads to semiotic emergence of "that" (object) and "this" (subject). This self-emergent tendency is then reinforced by the culture that carries it on from generation to generation.






            share|improve this answer




















            • can you suggest a Sutra or other source that expands on the illusion of identity specifically? Are there multiple mere awareness or only one? I guess another way of asking it... are there multiple moments of distinct qualia for any given moment of time?
              – Yeshe Tenley
              Aug 8 at 15:36










            • IMNSHO the illusion of identity is exactly what anatta, shunyata, twelve nidanas, and madhyamaka -- are all about. For a honorary Vajrayana mention, check out "Lamp of Mahamudra" by Tsele Natsok Rangdrol. Awareness is ephemeral phenomena that involves both local as well as universal constituents. So, not one, not multiple - it's not countable ("much" not "many").
              – Andrei Volkov♦
              Aug 8 at 16:13







            • 1




              How about conventionally speaking? Is it conventionally correct to say that Andrei and Yeshe are two different mindstreams? To say that we share a single mindstream? That our moments of qualia are one and the same? Different? If you stipulate that it is conventionally correct to say that we have two different mindstreams just like we have two different bodies, then what of the OP's question from a conventional standpoint? How does awareness bind to a particular body? Or is it emergent from the body?
              – Yeshe Tenley
              Aug 8 at 17:17











            • Conventionally speaking, it's partially distinct and partially shared. It's partially shared, for example, as we are discussing this topic and responding to each other's comments. At other times, when the two of us are not interacting, our mindstreams are partially shared with other parts of the environment. Awareness is not really tied to a particular body, it's just an assumption we make, institutionalized through habit and inertia. I can totally imagine a connected society of the future evolving a different paradigm, one where the notion of inter-mind would be explicitly accepted.
              – Andrei Volkov♦
              Aug 8 at 17:43















            up vote
            1
            down vote













            There is no single mindstream, the illusion of identity is a mind-made imputation.



            Instead, mind can be seen as an infinitely spanning graph of interconnected concurrent processes.



            Seeing a single identity in that is exactly the result of ignorant reification that Buddha and Buddhism are trying to save the "sentient beings" from.



            The way a sense of single-identity develops is described in the teaching of twelve nidanas. In modern terms it's a self-perpetuating semiotic process that develops from vague to increasingly more concrete delineation of entities (objects and the subject). To boil it down to a single principle, pursuing desirable objects is the act that by implication(inference) leads to semiotic emergence of "that" (object) and "this" (subject). This self-emergent tendency is then reinforced by the culture that carries it on from generation to generation.






            share|improve this answer




















            • can you suggest a Sutra or other source that expands on the illusion of identity specifically? Are there multiple mere awareness or only one? I guess another way of asking it... are there multiple moments of distinct qualia for any given moment of time?
              – Yeshe Tenley
              Aug 8 at 15:36










            • IMNSHO the illusion of identity is exactly what anatta, shunyata, twelve nidanas, and madhyamaka -- are all about. For a honorary Vajrayana mention, check out "Lamp of Mahamudra" by Tsele Natsok Rangdrol. Awareness is ephemeral phenomena that involves both local as well as universal constituents. So, not one, not multiple - it's not countable ("much" not "many").
              – Andrei Volkov♦
              Aug 8 at 16:13







            • 1




              How about conventionally speaking? Is it conventionally correct to say that Andrei and Yeshe are two different mindstreams? To say that we share a single mindstream? That our moments of qualia are one and the same? Different? If you stipulate that it is conventionally correct to say that we have two different mindstreams just like we have two different bodies, then what of the OP's question from a conventional standpoint? How does awareness bind to a particular body? Or is it emergent from the body?
              – Yeshe Tenley
              Aug 8 at 17:17











            • Conventionally speaking, it's partially distinct and partially shared. It's partially shared, for example, as we are discussing this topic and responding to each other's comments. At other times, when the two of us are not interacting, our mindstreams are partially shared with other parts of the environment. Awareness is not really tied to a particular body, it's just an assumption we make, institutionalized through habit and inertia. I can totally imagine a connected society of the future evolving a different paradigm, one where the notion of inter-mind would be explicitly accepted.
              – Andrei Volkov♦
              Aug 8 at 17:43













            up vote
            1
            down vote










            up vote
            1
            down vote









            There is no single mindstream, the illusion of identity is a mind-made imputation.



            Instead, mind can be seen as an infinitely spanning graph of interconnected concurrent processes.



            Seeing a single identity in that is exactly the result of ignorant reification that Buddha and Buddhism are trying to save the "sentient beings" from.



            The way a sense of single-identity develops is described in the teaching of twelve nidanas. In modern terms it's a self-perpetuating semiotic process that develops from vague to increasingly more concrete delineation of entities (objects and the subject). To boil it down to a single principle, pursuing desirable objects is the act that by implication(inference) leads to semiotic emergence of "that" (object) and "this" (subject). This self-emergent tendency is then reinforced by the culture that carries it on from generation to generation.






            share|improve this answer












            There is no single mindstream, the illusion of identity is a mind-made imputation.



            Instead, mind can be seen as an infinitely spanning graph of interconnected concurrent processes.



            Seeing a single identity in that is exactly the result of ignorant reification that Buddha and Buddhism are trying to save the "sentient beings" from.



            The way a sense of single-identity develops is described in the teaching of twelve nidanas. In modern terms it's a self-perpetuating semiotic process that develops from vague to increasingly more concrete delineation of entities (objects and the subject). To boil it down to a single principle, pursuing desirable objects is the act that by implication(inference) leads to semiotic emergence of "that" (object) and "this" (subject). This self-emergent tendency is then reinforced by the culture that carries it on from generation to generation.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered Aug 8 at 15:25









            Andrei Volkov♦

            34.4k229103




            34.4k229103











            • can you suggest a Sutra or other source that expands on the illusion of identity specifically? Are there multiple mere awareness or only one? I guess another way of asking it... are there multiple moments of distinct qualia for any given moment of time?
              – Yeshe Tenley
              Aug 8 at 15:36










            • IMNSHO the illusion of identity is exactly what anatta, shunyata, twelve nidanas, and madhyamaka -- are all about. For a honorary Vajrayana mention, check out "Lamp of Mahamudra" by Tsele Natsok Rangdrol. Awareness is ephemeral phenomena that involves both local as well as universal constituents. So, not one, not multiple - it's not countable ("much" not "many").
              – Andrei Volkov♦
              Aug 8 at 16:13







            • 1




              How about conventionally speaking? Is it conventionally correct to say that Andrei and Yeshe are two different mindstreams? To say that we share a single mindstream? That our moments of qualia are one and the same? Different? If you stipulate that it is conventionally correct to say that we have two different mindstreams just like we have two different bodies, then what of the OP's question from a conventional standpoint? How does awareness bind to a particular body? Or is it emergent from the body?
              – Yeshe Tenley
              Aug 8 at 17:17











            • Conventionally speaking, it's partially distinct and partially shared. It's partially shared, for example, as we are discussing this topic and responding to each other's comments. At other times, when the two of us are not interacting, our mindstreams are partially shared with other parts of the environment. Awareness is not really tied to a particular body, it's just an assumption we make, institutionalized through habit and inertia. I can totally imagine a connected society of the future evolving a different paradigm, one where the notion of inter-mind would be explicitly accepted.
              – Andrei Volkov♦
              Aug 8 at 17:43

















            • can you suggest a Sutra or other source that expands on the illusion of identity specifically? Are there multiple mere awareness or only one? I guess another way of asking it... are there multiple moments of distinct qualia for any given moment of time?
              – Yeshe Tenley
              Aug 8 at 15:36










            • IMNSHO the illusion of identity is exactly what anatta, shunyata, twelve nidanas, and madhyamaka -- are all about. For a honorary Vajrayana mention, check out "Lamp of Mahamudra" by Tsele Natsok Rangdrol. Awareness is ephemeral phenomena that involves both local as well as universal constituents. So, not one, not multiple - it's not countable ("much" not "many").
              – Andrei Volkov♦
              Aug 8 at 16:13







            • 1




              How about conventionally speaking? Is it conventionally correct to say that Andrei and Yeshe are two different mindstreams? To say that we share a single mindstream? That our moments of qualia are one and the same? Different? If you stipulate that it is conventionally correct to say that we have two different mindstreams just like we have two different bodies, then what of the OP's question from a conventional standpoint? How does awareness bind to a particular body? Or is it emergent from the body?
              – Yeshe Tenley
              Aug 8 at 17:17











            • Conventionally speaking, it's partially distinct and partially shared. It's partially shared, for example, as we are discussing this topic and responding to each other's comments. At other times, when the two of us are not interacting, our mindstreams are partially shared with other parts of the environment. Awareness is not really tied to a particular body, it's just an assumption we make, institutionalized through habit and inertia. I can totally imagine a connected society of the future evolving a different paradigm, one where the notion of inter-mind would be explicitly accepted.
              – Andrei Volkov♦
              Aug 8 at 17:43
















            can you suggest a Sutra or other source that expands on the illusion of identity specifically? Are there multiple mere awareness or only one? I guess another way of asking it... are there multiple moments of distinct qualia for any given moment of time?
            – Yeshe Tenley
            Aug 8 at 15:36




            can you suggest a Sutra or other source that expands on the illusion of identity specifically? Are there multiple mere awareness or only one? I guess another way of asking it... are there multiple moments of distinct qualia for any given moment of time?
            – Yeshe Tenley
            Aug 8 at 15:36












            IMNSHO the illusion of identity is exactly what anatta, shunyata, twelve nidanas, and madhyamaka -- are all about. For a honorary Vajrayana mention, check out "Lamp of Mahamudra" by Tsele Natsok Rangdrol. Awareness is ephemeral phenomena that involves both local as well as universal constituents. So, not one, not multiple - it's not countable ("much" not "many").
            – Andrei Volkov♦
            Aug 8 at 16:13





            IMNSHO the illusion of identity is exactly what anatta, shunyata, twelve nidanas, and madhyamaka -- are all about. For a honorary Vajrayana mention, check out "Lamp of Mahamudra" by Tsele Natsok Rangdrol. Awareness is ephemeral phenomena that involves both local as well as universal constituents. So, not one, not multiple - it's not countable ("much" not "many").
            – Andrei Volkov♦
            Aug 8 at 16:13





            1




            1




            How about conventionally speaking? Is it conventionally correct to say that Andrei and Yeshe are two different mindstreams? To say that we share a single mindstream? That our moments of qualia are one and the same? Different? If you stipulate that it is conventionally correct to say that we have two different mindstreams just like we have two different bodies, then what of the OP's question from a conventional standpoint? How does awareness bind to a particular body? Or is it emergent from the body?
            – Yeshe Tenley
            Aug 8 at 17:17





            How about conventionally speaking? Is it conventionally correct to say that Andrei and Yeshe are two different mindstreams? To say that we share a single mindstream? That our moments of qualia are one and the same? Different? If you stipulate that it is conventionally correct to say that we have two different mindstreams just like we have two different bodies, then what of the OP's question from a conventional standpoint? How does awareness bind to a particular body? Or is it emergent from the body?
            – Yeshe Tenley
            Aug 8 at 17:17













            Conventionally speaking, it's partially distinct and partially shared. It's partially shared, for example, as we are discussing this topic and responding to each other's comments. At other times, when the two of us are not interacting, our mindstreams are partially shared with other parts of the environment. Awareness is not really tied to a particular body, it's just an assumption we make, institutionalized through habit and inertia. I can totally imagine a connected society of the future evolving a different paradigm, one where the notion of inter-mind would be explicitly accepted.
            – Andrei Volkov♦
            Aug 8 at 17:43





            Conventionally speaking, it's partially distinct and partially shared. It's partially shared, for example, as we are discussing this topic and responding to each other's comments. At other times, when the two of us are not interacting, our mindstreams are partially shared with other parts of the environment. Awareness is not really tied to a particular body, it's just an assumption we make, institutionalized through habit and inertia. I can totally imagine a connected society of the future evolving a different paradigm, one where the notion of inter-mind would be explicitly accepted.
            – Andrei Volkov♦
            Aug 8 at 17:43











            up vote
            1
            down vote













            This mental-physical association you speak of, is called namarupa or name-and-form in Buddhism. In SN 12.2, it is described as:




            "And what is name-&-form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, &
            attention: This is called name. The four great elements, and the form
            dependent on the four great elements: This is called form. This name &
            this form are called name-&-form.




            In dependent origination, the requisite condition of aging and death is birth. The requisite condition of birth is becoming. The requisite condition of becoming is clinging. The requisite condition of clinging is craving. The requisite condition of craving is feeling. The requisite condition of feeling is contact. The requisite condition of contact is name-and-form. This is according to DN 15.



            But what is the requisite condition of name-and-form?



            According to the Maha-nidana Sutta (DN 15):




            Name-and-form



            "'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form.'
            Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from
            consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form. If
            consciousness were not to descend into the mother's womb, would
            name-and-form take shape in the womb?"



            "No, lord."



            "If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to depart,
            would name-and-form be produced for this world?"



            "No, lord."



            "If the consciousness of the young boy or girl were to be cut off,
            would name-and-form ripen, grow, and reach maturity?"



            "No, lord."



            "Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this
            is a requisite condition for name-and-form, i.e., consciousness."



            Consciousness



            "'From name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.'
            Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from
            name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness. If
            consciousness were not to gain a foothold in name-and-form, would a
            coming-into-play of the origination of birth, aging, death, and stress
            in the future be discerned?



            "No, lord."



            "Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this
            is a requisite condition for consciousness, i.e., name-and-form.



            "This is the extent to which there is birth, aging, death, passing
            away, and re-arising. This is the extent to which there are means of
            designation, expression, and delineation. This is the extent to which
            the sphere of discernment extends, the extent to which the cycle
            revolves for the manifesting (discernibility) of this world — i.e.,
            name-and-form together with consciousness.




            In Piya Tan's commentary on Dependent Arising:




            In Diagram 5a, the viññāṇa (consciousness) of the looped version is
            actually cognitive consciousness, which comprises both
            “consciousness” — as the 6 sense-bases and the 6 consciousness;
            hence, there is no need for mention of the 6 sense-bases again.
            However, in the looped versions of Diagram 5b, the nāma-rūpa that
            feeds viññāṇa is what, in Abhidhamma, is called the bhav’aṅga, the
            “birth continuum.” At the moment of dying, this bhav’aṅga is the
            cuti,citta, “death-consciousness,” and is also the paṭisandhi,citta,
            “rebirth-consciousness” of the next life. The modern term for this is
            the existential consciousness.




            So, here, two types of consciousness are described - existential consciousness or rebirth-consciousness that is the requisite condition of name-and-form, and name-and-form is the requisite condition for cognitive consciousness (eye consciousness, ear consciousness, nose consciousness, tongue consciousness, body consciousness and mind consciousness).



            The Madhupindika Sutta (MN 18) has the formula "dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises; dependent on ear & sounds, ear-consciousness arises" and so on. So, that provides the connection between cognitive consciousness and the six sense-bases in different versions of the dependent origination's links.



            In his commentary on Viññāṇa (Consciousness), Piya Tan wrote:




            A similar description is given in the Mahā,nidāna Sutta (D 15), where
            it is said that if no consciousness were “to descend into a mother’s
            womb,” or “were to depart” after that, nāma-rūpa would not form; or,
            if consciousness “were to be cut off” in a young person, nāma-rūpa
            would not develop and mature. In simple terms, this means that our
            sensing the world or our sense experiences or sense stimuli are what
            make us, create what we are.
            This mutual conditioning of Viññāṇa and
            nāma-rūpa shows that no part of an individual should be regarded as
            having independent existence or selfhood. This fact is clearly shown
            in the stock formula found in the Mahā Punnama Sutta and elsewhere:




            Whatever kind of consciousness there is, whether past, future, or
            present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior,
            far or near — one sees all consciousnesses as they really are with
            right wisdom, thus: “This is not mine; this I am not; this is not my
            self.”It is when one knows thus, when one sees thus, that in regard to
            this body with its consciousness and all external signs, there is no
            latent tendency to I-making, to mine-making and to conceit.





            Further relationship between consciousness and name-and-form can be found in the Cetana Sutta (SN 12.38):




            [the Blessed One said,] "What one intends, what
            one arranges, and what one obsesses about: This is a support for the
            stationing of consciousness. There being a support, there is a landing
            [or: an establishing] of consciousness. When that consciousness lands
            and grows, there is the production of renewed becoming in the future.
            When there is the production of renewed becoming in the future, there
            is future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, &
            despair. Such is the origination of this entire mass of suffering &
            stress.



            "If one doesn't intend and doesn't arrange, but one still obsesses
            [about something], this is a support for the stationing of
            consciousness. There being a support, there is a landing of
            consciousness. When that consciousness lands and grows, there is the
            production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is the
            production of renewed becoming in the future, there is future birth,
            aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. Such
            [too] is the origination of this entire mass of suffering & stress.



            "But when one doesn't intend, arrange, or obsess [about anything],
            there is no support for the stationing of consciousness. There being
            no support, there is no landing of consciousness. When that
            consciousness doesn't land & grow, there is no production of renewed
            becoming in the future. When there is no production of renewed
            becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging & death,
            sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair. Such is the cessation
            of this entire mass of suffering & stress."



            Notes: The seven obsessions are: the obsession of sensual passion, the
            obsession of resistance, the obsession of views, the obsession of
            uncertainty, the obsession of conceit, the obsession of passion for
            becoming, and the obsession of ignorance. See AN 7.12.




            So, what one obsesses over (clinging), creates the landing of consciousness for the future rebirth. That's existential consciousness. With existential consciousness as the requisite condition, comes name-and-form. But from name-and-form as the requisite condition, comes cognitive consciousness, which is the requisite condition for contact, which is the requisite condition for feeling, which is the requisite condition for craving, which is the requisite condition for clinging, (then becoming, birth, ageing and death). Clinging here then is used to create the landing for the future existential consciousness.



            So, this is how the name-and-form comes about and endures.



            It is also interesting that the third noble truth says that to end this cycle, craving must be ended. That cuts the cycle.






            share|improve this answer






















            • Useful references, thanks. How does consciousness "descend into the mother's womb"?
              – Paul Sharpe
              Aug 9 at 11:50















            up vote
            1
            down vote













            This mental-physical association you speak of, is called namarupa or name-and-form in Buddhism. In SN 12.2, it is described as:




            "And what is name-&-form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, &
            attention: This is called name. The four great elements, and the form
            dependent on the four great elements: This is called form. This name &
            this form are called name-&-form.




            In dependent origination, the requisite condition of aging and death is birth. The requisite condition of birth is becoming. The requisite condition of becoming is clinging. The requisite condition of clinging is craving. The requisite condition of craving is feeling. The requisite condition of feeling is contact. The requisite condition of contact is name-and-form. This is according to DN 15.



            But what is the requisite condition of name-and-form?



            According to the Maha-nidana Sutta (DN 15):




            Name-and-form



            "'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form.'
            Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from
            consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form. If
            consciousness were not to descend into the mother's womb, would
            name-and-form take shape in the womb?"



            "No, lord."



            "If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to depart,
            would name-and-form be produced for this world?"



            "No, lord."



            "If the consciousness of the young boy or girl were to be cut off,
            would name-and-form ripen, grow, and reach maturity?"



            "No, lord."



            "Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this
            is a requisite condition for name-and-form, i.e., consciousness."



            Consciousness



            "'From name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.'
            Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from
            name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness. If
            consciousness were not to gain a foothold in name-and-form, would a
            coming-into-play of the origination of birth, aging, death, and stress
            in the future be discerned?



            "No, lord."



            "Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this
            is a requisite condition for consciousness, i.e., name-and-form.



            "This is the extent to which there is birth, aging, death, passing
            away, and re-arising. This is the extent to which there are means of
            designation, expression, and delineation. This is the extent to which
            the sphere of discernment extends, the extent to which the cycle
            revolves for the manifesting (discernibility) of this world — i.e.,
            name-and-form together with consciousness.




            In Piya Tan's commentary on Dependent Arising:




            In Diagram 5a, the viññāṇa (consciousness) of the looped version is
            actually cognitive consciousness, which comprises both
            “consciousness” — as the 6 sense-bases and the 6 consciousness;
            hence, there is no need for mention of the 6 sense-bases again.
            However, in the looped versions of Diagram 5b, the nāma-rūpa that
            feeds viññāṇa is what, in Abhidhamma, is called the bhav’aṅga, the
            “birth continuum.” At the moment of dying, this bhav’aṅga is the
            cuti,citta, “death-consciousness,” and is also the paṭisandhi,citta,
            “rebirth-consciousness” of the next life. The modern term for this is
            the existential consciousness.




            So, here, two types of consciousness are described - existential consciousness or rebirth-consciousness that is the requisite condition of name-and-form, and name-and-form is the requisite condition for cognitive consciousness (eye consciousness, ear consciousness, nose consciousness, tongue consciousness, body consciousness and mind consciousness).



            The Madhupindika Sutta (MN 18) has the formula "dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises; dependent on ear & sounds, ear-consciousness arises" and so on. So, that provides the connection between cognitive consciousness and the six sense-bases in different versions of the dependent origination's links.



            In his commentary on Viññāṇa (Consciousness), Piya Tan wrote:




            A similar description is given in the Mahā,nidāna Sutta (D 15), where
            it is said that if no consciousness were “to descend into a mother’s
            womb,” or “were to depart” after that, nāma-rūpa would not form; or,
            if consciousness “were to be cut off” in a young person, nāma-rūpa
            would not develop and mature. In simple terms, this means that our
            sensing the world or our sense experiences or sense stimuli are what
            make us, create what we are.
            This mutual conditioning of Viññāṇa and
            nāma-rūpa shows that no part of an individual should be regarded as
            having independent existence or selfhood. This fact is clearly shown
            in the stock formula found in the Mahā Punnama Sutta and elsewhere:




            Whatever kind of consciousness there is, whether past, future, or
            present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior,
            far or near — one sees all consciousnesses as they really are with
            right wisdom, thus: “This is not mine; this I am not; this is not my
            self.”It is when one knows thus, when one sees thus, that in regard to
            this body with its consciousness and all external signs, there is no
            latent tendency to I-making, to mine-making and to conceit.





            Further relationship between consciousness and name-and-form can be found in the Cetana Sutta (SN 12.38):




            [the Blessed One said,] "What one intends, what
            one arranges, and what one obsesses about: This is a support for the
            stationing of consciousness. There being a support, there is a landing
            [or: an establishing] of consciousness. When that consciousness lands
            and grows, there is the production of renewed becoming in the future.
            When there is the production of renewed becoming in the future, there
            is future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, &
            despair. Such is the origination of this entire mass of suffering &
            stress.



            "If one doesn't intend and doesn't arrange, but one still obsesses
            [about something], this is a support for the stationing of
            consciousness. There being a support, there is a landing of
            consciousness. When that consciousness lands and grows, there is the
            production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is the
            production of renewed becoming in the future, there is future birth,
            aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. Such
            [too] is the origination of this entire mass of suffering & stress.



            "But when one doesn't intend, arrange, or obsess [about anything],
            there is no support for the stationing of consciousness. There being
            no support, there is no landing of consciousness. When that
            consciousness doesn't land & grow, there is no production of renewed
            becoming in the future. When there is no production of renewed
            becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging & death,
            sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair. Such is the cessation
            of this entire mass of suffering & stress."



            Notes: The seven obsessions are: the obsession of sensual passion, the
            obsession of resistance, the obsession of views, the obsession of
            uncertainty, the obsession of conceit, the obsession of passion for
            becoming, and the obsession of ignorance. See AN 7.12.




            So, what one obsesses over (clinging), creates the landing of consciousness for the future rebirth. That's existential consciousness. With existential consciousness as the requisite condition, comes name-and-form. But from name-and-form as the requisite condition, comes cognitive consciousness, which is the requisite condition for contact, which is the requisite condition for feeling, which is the requisite condition for craving, which is the requisite condition for clinging, (then becoming, birth, ageing and death). Clinging here then is used to create the landing for the future existential consciousness.



            So, this is how the name-and-form comes about and endures.



            It is also interesting that the third noble truth says that to end this cycle, craving must be ended. That cuts the cycle.






            share|improve this answer






















            • Useful references, thanks. How does consciousness "descend into the mother's womb"?
              – Paul Sharpe
              Aug 9 at 11:50













            up vote
            1
            down vote










            up vote
            1
            down vote









            This mental-physical association you speak of, is called namarupa or name-and-form in Buddhism. In SN 12.2, it is described as:




            "And what is name-&-form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, &
            attention: This is called name. The four great elements, and the form
            dependent on the four great elements: This is called form. This name &
            this form are called name-&-form.




            In dependent origination, the requisite condition of aging and death is birth. The requisite condition of birth is becoming. The requisite condition of becoming is clinging. The requisite condition of clinging is craving. The requisite condition of craving is feeling. The requisite condition of feeling is contact. The requisite condition of contact is name-and-form. This is according to DN 15.



            But what is the requisite condition of name-and-form?



            According to the Maha-nidana Sutta (DN 15):




            Name-and-form



            "'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form.'
            Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from
            consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form. If
            consciousness were not to descend into the mother's womb, would
            name-and-form take shape in the womb?"



            "No, lord."



            "If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to depart,
            would name-and-form be produced for this world?"



            "No, lord."



            "If the consciousness of the young boy or girl were to be cut off,
            would name-and-form ripen, grow, and reach maturity?"



            "No, lord."



            "Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this
            is a requisite condition for name-and-form, i.e., consciousness."



            Consciousness



            "'From name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.'
            Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from
            name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness. If
            consciousness were not to gain a foothold in name-and-form, would a
            coming-into-play of the origination of birth, aging, death, and stress
            in the future be discerned?



            "No, lord."



            "Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this
            is a requisite condition for consciousness, i.e., name-and-form.



            "This is the extent to which there is birth, aging, death, passing
            away, and re-arising. This is the extent to which there are means of
            designation, expression, and delineation. This is the extent to which
            the sphere of discernment extends, the extent to which the cycle
            revolves for the manifesting (discernibility) of this world — i.e.,
            name-and-form together with consciousness.




            In Piya Tan's commentary on Dependent Arising:




            In Diagram 5a, the viññāṇa (consciousness) of the looped version is
            actually cognitive consciousness, which comprises both
            “consciousness” — as the 6 sense-bases and the 6 consciousness;
            hence, there is no need for mention of the 6 sense-bases again.
            However, in the looped versions of Diagram 5b, the nāma-rūpa that
            feeds viññāṇa is what, in Abhidhamma, is called the bhav’aṅga, the
            “birth continuum.” At the moment of dying, this bhav’aṅga is the
            cuti,citta, “death-consciousness,” and is also the paṭisandhi,citta,
            “rebirth-consciousness” of the next life. The modern term for this is
            the existential consciousness.




            So, here, two types of consciousness are described - existential consciousness or rebirth-consciousness that is the requisite condition of name-and-form, and name-and-form is the requisite condition for cognitive consciousness (eye consciousness, ear consciousness, nose consciousness, tongue consciousness, body consciousness and mind consciousness).



            The Madhupindika Sutta (MN 18) has the formula "dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises; dependent on ear & sounds, ear-consciousness arises" and so on. So, that provides the connection between cognitive consciousness and the six sense-bases in different versions of the dependent origination's links.



            In his commentary on Viññāṇa (Consciousness), Piya Tan wrote:




            A similar description is given in the Mahā,nidāna Sutta (D 15), where
            it is said that if no consciousness were “to descend into a mother’s
            womb,” or “were to depart” after that, nāma-rūpa would not form; or,
            if consciousness “were to be cut off” in a young person, nāma-rūpa
            would not develop and mature. In simple terms, this means that our
            sensing the world or our sense experiences or sense stimuli are what
            make us, create what we are.
            This mutual conditioning of Viññāṇa and
            nāma-rūpa shows that no part of an individual should be regarded as
            having independent existence or selfhood. This fact is clearly shown
            in the stock formula found in the Mahā Punnama Sutta and elsewhere:




            Whatever kind of consciousness there is, whether past, future, or
            present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior,
            far or near — one sees all consciousnesses as they really are with
            right wisdom, thus: “This is not mine; this I am not; this is not my
            self.”It is when one knows thus, when one sees thus, that in regard to
            this body with its consciousness and all external signs, there is no
            latent tendency to I-making, to mine-making and to conceit.





            Further relationship between consciousness and name-and-form can be found in the Cetana Sutta (SN 12.38):




            [the Blessed One said,] "What one intends, what
            one arranges, and what one obsesses about: This is a support for the
            stationing of consciousness. There being a support, there is a landing
            [or: an establishing] of consciousness. When that consciousness lands
            and grows, there is the production of renewed becoming in the future.
            When there is the production of renewed becoming in the future, there
            is future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, &
            despair. Such is the origination of this entire mass of suffering &
            stress.



            "If one doesn't intend and doesn't arrange, but one still obsesses
            [about something], this is a support for the stationing of
            consciousness. There being a support, there is a landing of
            consciousness. When that consciousness lands and grows, there is the
            production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is the
            production of renewed becoming in the future, there is future birth,
            aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. Such
            [too] is the origination of this entire mass of suffering & stress.



            "But when one doesn't intend, arrange, or obsess [about anything],
            there is no support for the stationing of consciousness. There being
            no support, there is no landing of consciousness. When that
            consciousness doesn't land & grow, there is no production of renewed
            becoming in the future. When there is no production of renewed
            becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging & death,
            sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair. Such is the cessation
            of this entire mass of suffering & stress."



            Notes: The seven obsessions are: the obsession of sensual passion, the
            obsession of resistance, the obsession of views, the obsession of
            uncertainty, the obsession of conceit, the obsession of passion for
            becoming, and the obsession of ignorance. See AN 7.12.




            So, what one obsesses over (clinging), creates the landing of consciousness for the future rebirth. That's existential consciousness. With existential consciousness as the requisite condition, comes name-and-form. But from name-and-form as the requisite condition, comes cognitive consciousness, which is the requisite condition for contact, which is the requisite condition for feeling, which is the requisite condition for craving, which is the requisite condition for clinging, (then becoming, birth, ageing and death). Clinging here then is used to create the landing for the future existential consciousness.



            So, this is how the name-and-form comes about and endures.



            It is also interesting that the third noble truth says that to end this cycle, craving must be ended. That cuts the cycle.






            share|improve this answer














            This mental-physical association you speak of, is called namarupa or name-and-form in Buddhism. In SN 12.2, it is described as:




            "And what is name-&-form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, &
            attention: This is called name. The four great elements, and the form
            dependent on the four great elements: This is called form. This name &
            this form are called name-&-form.




            In dependent origination, the requisite condition of aging and death is birth. The requisite condition of birth is becoming. The requisite condition of becoming is clinging. The requisite condition of clinging is craving. The requisite condition of craving is feeling. The requisite condition of feeling is contact. The requisite condition of contact is name-and-form. This is according to DN 15.



            But what is the requisite condition of name-and-form?



            According to the Maha-nidana Sutta (DN 15):




            Name-and-form



            "'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form.'
            Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from
            consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form. If
            consciousness were not to descend into the mother's womb, would
            name-and-form take shape in the womb?"



            "No, lord."



            "If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to depart,
            would name-and-form be produced for this world?"



            "No, lord."



            "If the consciousness of the young boy or girl were to be cut off,
            would name-and-form ripen, grow, and reach maturity?"



            "No, lord."



            "Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this
            is a requisite condition for name-and-form, i.e., consciousness."



            Consciousness



            "'From name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.'
            Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from
            name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness. If
            consciousness were not to gain a foothold in name-and-form, would a
            coming-into-play of the origination of birth, aging, death, and stress
            in the future be discerned?



            "No, lord."



            "Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this
            is a requisite condition for consciousness, i.e., name-and-form.



            "This is the extent to which there is birth, aging, death, passing
            away, and re-arising. This is the extent to which there are means of
            designation, expression, and delineation. This is the extent to which
            the sphere of discernment extends, the extent to which the cycle
            revolves for the manifesting (discernibility) of this world — i.e.,
            name-and-form together with consciousness.




            In Piya Tan's commentary on Dependent Arising:




            In Diagram 5a, the viññāṇa (consciousness) of the looped version is
            actually cognitive consciousness, which comprises both
            “consciousness” — as the 6 sense-bases and the 6 consciousness;
            hence, there is no need for mention of the 6 sense-bases again.
            However, in the looped versions of Diagram 5b, the nāma-rūpa that
            feeds viññāṇa is what, in Abhidhamma, is called the bhav’aṅga, the
            “birth continuum.” At the moment of dying, this bhav’aṅga is the
            cuti,citta, “death-consciousness,” and is also the paṭisandhi,citta,
            “rebirth-consciousness” of the next life. The modern term for this is
            the existential consciousness.




            So, here, two types of consciousness are described - existential consciousness or rebirth-consciousness that is the requisite condition of name-and-form, and name-and-form is the requisite condition for cognitive consciousness (eye consciousness, ear consciousness, nose consciousness, tongue consciousness, body consciousness and mind consciousness).



            The Madhupindika Sutta (MN 18) has the formula "dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises; dependent on ear & sounds, ear-consciousness arises" and so on. So, that provides the connection between cognitive consciousness and the six sense-bases in different versions of the dependent origination's links.



            In his commentary on Viññāṇa (Consciousness), Piya Tan wrote:




            A similar description is given in the Mahā,nidāna Sutta (D 15), where
            it is said that if no consciousness were “to descend into a mother’s
            womb,” or “were to depart” after that, nāma-rūpa would not form; or,
            if consciousness “were to be cut off” in a young person, nāma-rūpa
            would not develop and mature. In simple terms, this means that our
            sensing the world or our sense experiences or sense stimuli are what
            make us, create what we are.
            This mutual conditioning of Viññāṇa and
            nāma-rūpa shows that no part of an individual should be regarded as
            having independent existence or selfhood. This fact is clearly shown
            in the stock formula found in the Mahā Punnama Sutta and elsewhere:




            Whatever kind of consciousness there is, whether past, future, or
            present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior,
            far or near — one sees all consciousnesses as they really are with
            right wisdom, thus: “This is not mine; this I am not; this is not my
            self.”It is when one knows thus, when one sees thus, that in regard to
            this body with its consciousness and all external signs, there is no
            latent tendency to I-making, to mine-making and to conceit.





            Further relationship between consciousness and name-and-form can be found in the Cetana Sutta (SN 12.38):




            [the Blessed One said,] "What one intends, what
            one arranges, and what one obsesses about: This is a support for the
            stationing of consciousness. There being a support, there is a landing
            [or: an establishing] of consciousness. When that consciousness lands
            and grows, there is the production of renewed becoming in the future.
            When there is the production of renewed becoming in the future, there
            is future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, &
            despair. Such is the origination of this entire mass of suffering &
            stress.



            "If one doesn't intend and doesn't arrange, but one still obsesses
            [about something], this is a support for the stationing of
            consciousness. There being a support, there is a landing of
            consciousness. When that consciousness lands and grows, there is the
            production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is the
            production of renewed becoming in the future, there is future birth,
            aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. Such
            [too] is the origination of this entire mass of suffering & stress.



            "But when one doesn't intend, arrange, or obsess [about anything],
            there is no support for the stationing of consciousness. There being
            no support, there is no landing of consciousness. When that
            consciousness doesn't land & grow, there is no production of renewed
            becoming in the future. When there is no production of renewed
            becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging & death,
            sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair. Such is the cessation
            of this entire mass of suffering & stress."



            Notes: The seven obsessions are: the obsession of sensual passion, the
            obsession of resistance, the obsession of views, the obsession of
            uncertainty, the obsession of conceit, the obsession of passion for
            becoming, and the obsession of ignorance. See AN 7.12.




            So, what one obsesses over (clinging), creates the landing of consciousness for the future rebirth. That's existential consciousness. With existential consciousness as the requisite condition, comes name-and-form. But from name-and-form as the requisite condition, comes cognitive consciousness, which is the requisite condition for contact, which is the requisite condition for feeling, which is the requisite condition for craving, which is the requisite condition for clinging, (then becoming, birth, ageing and death). Clinging here then is used to create the landing for the future existential consciousness.



            So, this is how the name-and-form comes about and endures.



            It is also interesting that the third noble truth says that to end this cycle, craving must be ended. That cuts the cycle.







            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited Aug 8 at 16:51

























            answered Aug 8 at 16:45









            ruben2020

            12.2k21137




            12.2k21137











            • Useful references, thanks. How does consciousness "descend into the mother's womb"?
              – Paul Sharpe
              Aug 9 at 11:50

















            • Useful references, thanks. How does consciousness "descend into the mother's womb"?
              – Paul Sharpe
              Aug 9 at 11:50
















            Useful references, thanks. How does consciousness "descend into the mother's womb"?
            – Paul Sharpe
            Aug 9 at 11:50





            Useful references, thanks. How does consciousness "descend into the mother's womb"?
            – Paul Sharpe
            Aug 9 at 11:50











            up vote
            0
            down vote













            The Buddha did not teach about an impersonal reincarnated mind-stream. This idea comes from later people.



            Any teachings taught by the Buddha that are interpreted to mean "reincarnation" are based in the view that a "self" or "person" is reincarnated.



            If a "self" was not reincarnated then there would be no incentive to be moral.



            The Pali suttas say teachings that side with morality also side with the view of "self" (MN 117).



            The common neo-Buddhist view that impersonal reincarnation occurs negates the purpose and efficacy of both the higher & lower teachings.



            Not viewing absolute impermanence negates Nibbana & liberation.



            Not viewing self in reincarnation negates morality.






            share|improve this answer




















            • I agree. But it is invalid to say who takes rebirth according to Dhamma. The right question is depending upon what conditions birth comes to be ? The answer is depending upon craving the birth comes to be.
              – Dheeraj Verma
              Aug 8 at 13:55














            up vote
            0
            down vote













            The Buddha did not teach about an impersonal reincarnated mind-stream. This idea comes from later people.



            Any teachings taught by the Buddha that are interpreted to mean "reincarnation" are based in the view that a "self" or "person" is reincarnated.



            If a "self" was not reincarnated then there would be no incentive to be moral.



            The Pali suttas say teachings that side with morality also side with the view of "self" (MN 117).



            The common neo-Buddhist view that impersonal reincarnation occurs negates the purpose and efficacy of both the higher & lower teachings.



            Not viewing absolute impermanence negates Nibbana & liberation.



            Not viewing self in reincarnation negates morality.






            share|improve this answer




















            • I agree. But it is invalid to say who takes rebirth according to Dhamma. The right question is depending upon what conditions birth comes to be ? The answer is depending upon craving the birth comes to be.
              – Dheeraj Verma
              Aug 8 at 13:55












            up vote
            0
            down vote










            up vote
            0
            down vote









            The Buddha did not teach about an impersonal reincarnated mind-stream. This idea comes from later people.



            Any teachings taught by the Buddha that are interpreted to mean "reincarnation" are based in the view that a "self" or "person" is reincarnated.



            If a "self" was not reincarnated then there would be no incentive to be moral.



            The Pali suttas say teachings that side with morality also side with the view of "self" (MN 117).



            The common neo-Buddhist view that impersonal reincarnation occurs negates the purpose and efficacy of both the higher & lower teachings.



            Not viewing absolute impermanence negates Nibbana & liberation.



            Not viewing self in reincarnation negates morality.






            share|improve this answer












            The Buddha did not teach about an impersonal reincarnated mind-stream. This idea comes from later people.



            Any teachings taught by the Buddha that are interpreted to mean "reincarnation" are based in the view that a "self" or "person" is reincarnated.



            If a "self" was not reincarnated then there would be no incentive to be moral.



            The Pali suttas say teachings that side with morality also side with the view of "self" (MN 117).



            The common neo-Buddhist view that impersonal reincarnation occurs negates the purpose and efficacy of both the higher & lower teachings.



            Not viewing absolute impermanence negates Nibbana & liberation.



            Not viewing self in reincarnation negates morality.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered Aug 8 at 11:25









            Dhammadhatu

            22.8k1941




            22.8k1941











            • I agree. But it is invalid to say who takes rebirth according to Dhamma. The right question is depending upon what conditions birth comes to be ? The answer is depending upon craving the birth comes to be.
              – Dheeraj Verma
              Aug 8 at 13:55
















            • I agree. But it is invalid to say who takes rebirth according to Dhamma. The right question is depending upon what conditions birth comes to be ? The answer is depending upon craving the birth comes to be.
              – Dheeraj Verma
              Aug 8 at 13:55















            I agree. But it is invalid to say who takes rebirth according to Dhamma. The right question is depending upon what conditions birth comes to be ? The answer is depending upon craving the birth comes to be.
            – Dheeraj Verma
            Aug 8 at 13:55




            I agree. But it is invalid to say who takes rebirth according to Dhamma. The right question is depending upon what conditions birth comes to be ? The answer is depending upon craving the birth comes to be.
            – Dheeraj Verma
            Aug 8 at 13:55












             

            draft saved


            draft discarded


























             


            draft saved


            draft discarded














            StackExchange.ready(
            function ()
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fbuddhism.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f28584%2fhow-is-a-mindstream-associated-with-human-forms%23new-answer', 'question_page');

            );

            Post as a guest













































































            這個網誌中的熱門文章

            How to combine Bézier curves to a surface?

            Mutual Information Always Non-negative

            Why am i infinitely getting the same tweet with the Twitter Search API?