What can you do if the higher-order derivative test is inconclusive?

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The second-derivative test states that if $x$ is a real number such that $f'(x)=0$, then:



  1. If $f''(x)>0$, then $f$ has a local minimum at $x$.

  2. If $f''(x)<0$, then $f$ has a local maximum at $x$.

  3. If $f''(x)=0$, then the text is inconclusive.

But there's no need to despair if the second-derivative test is inconclusive, because there is the higher-order derivative test. It states that if $x$ is a real number such that $f'(x)=0$, and $n$ is the smallest natural number such that $f^(n)(x)neq 0$, then:



  1. If $n$ is even and $f^(n)>0$, then $f$ has a local minimum at $x$.

  2. If $n$ is even and $f^(n)<0$, then $f$ has a local manimum at $x$.

  3. If $n$ is odd, then $f$ has an inflection point at $x$.

But the higher-order derivative test can also be inconclusive, if $f^(n)(x)=0$ for all $n$. My question, what can you do if the higher-order derivative test is inconclusive?



Is the first-derivative test the only option at that point, or are there other options?



EDIT: I’m interested in finding a method that depends only on the germ of $f$.



EDIT 2: Let me explain more precisely what I’m saying regarding the germ. Let $X$ be the set of all functions $f$ infinitely differentiable at $a$ where $f^(n)(a)=0$ for all $n$. Two functions $f$ and $g$ in $X$ belong to the same germ if there is an open interval $I$ containing $a$ such that $f(x) = g(x)$ for all $x$ in $I$. Now let $Y$ be the set of germs of $X$. I want to know if there exists a nontrivial function $F:YrightarrowmathbbR$ such that if $F$ evaluated at a particular germ yields a positive number, then all the functions in the germ have a local minimum at $a$, and if it yields a negative number then all the functions in the germ have a local maximum at $a$.







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  • The case you are talking about is for the polynomials of degree $m<n$. However, if you see that $f^n$$(x)$ $=$ $0$ $forall nin N$, then then the function must be a constant one, right ?? @Keshav Srinivasan
    – Anik Bhowmick
    Aug 4 at 4:53











  • @AnikBhowmick I'm not talking about polynomials, I'm talking about smooth functions in general. If you have an infinitely differentiable function $f$ whose derivatives of all orders evaluated at a given point $x$ is zero, then the higher-order derivative test fails. But that doesn't mean that $f$ is a constant function. For instance consider the example function given here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-analytic_smooth_function
    – Keshav Srinivasan
    Aug 4 at 5:01






  • 1




    I assume you meant to ask what can you do if the higher-order derivative test is inconclusive?
    – N. F. Taussig
    Aug 4 at 8:14










  • @N.F.Taussig Yes
    – Keshav Srinivasan
    Aug 4 at 12:34














up vote
4
down vote

favorite
3












The second-derivative test states that if $x$ is a real number such that $f'(x)=0$, then:



  1. If $f''(x)>0$, then $f$ has a local minimum at $x$.

  2. If $f''(x)<0$, then $f$ has a local maximum at $x$.

  3. If $f''(x)=0$, then the text is inconclusive.

But there's no need to despair if the second-derivative test is inconclusive, because there is the higher-order derivative test. It states that if $x$ is a real number such that $f'(x)=0$, and $n$ is the smallest natural number such that $f^(n)(x)neq 0$, then:



  1. If $n$ is even and $f^(n)>0$, then $f$ has a local minimum at $x$.

  2. If $n$ is even and $f^(n)<0$, then $f$ has a local manimum at $x$.

  3. If $n$ is odd, then $f$ has an inflection point at $x$.

But the higher-order derivative test can also be inconclusive, if $f^(n)(x)=0$ for all $n$. My question, what can you do if the higher-order derivative test is inconclusive?



Is the first-derivative test the only option at that point, or are there other options?



EDIT: I’m interested in finding a method that depends only on the germ of $f$.



EDIT 2: Let me explain more precisely what I’m saying regarding the germ. Let $X$ be the set of all functions $f$ infinitely differentiable at $a$ where $f^(n)(a)=0$ for all $n$. Two functions $f$ and $g$ in $X$ belong to the same germ if there is an open interval $I$ containing $a$ such that $f(x) = g(x)$ for all $x$ in $I$. Now let $Y$ be the set of germs of $X$. I want to know if there exists a nontrivial function $F:YrightarrowmathbbR$ such that if $F$ evaluated at a particular germ yields a positive number, then all the functions in the germ have a local minimum at $a$, and if it yields a negative number then all the functions in the germ have a local maximum at $a$.







share|cite|improve this question






















  • The case you are talking about is for the polynomials of degree $m<n$. However, if you see that $f^n$$(x)$ $=$ $0$ $forall nin N$, then then the function must be a constant one, right ?? @Keshav Srinivasan
    – Anik Bhowmick
    Aug 4 at 4:53











  • @AnikBhowmick I'm not talking about polynomials, I'm talking about smooth functions in general. If you have an infinitely differentiable function $f$ whose derivatives of all orders evaluated at a given point $x$ is zero, then the higher-order derivative test fails. But that doesn't mean that $f$ is a constant function. For instance consider the example function given here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-analytic_smooth_function
    – Keshav Srinivasan
    Aug 4 at 5:01






  • 1




    I assume you meant to ask what can you do if the higher-order derivative test is inconclusive?
    – N. F. Taussig
    Aug 4 at 8:14










  • @N.F.Taussig Yes
    – Keshav Srinivasan
    Aug 4 at 12:34












up vote
4
down vote

favorite
3









up vote
4
down vote

favorite
3






3





The second-derivative test states that if $x$ is a real number such that $f'(x)=0$, then:



  1. If $f''(x)>0$, then $f$ has a local minimum at $x$.

  2. If $f''(x)<0$, then $f$ has a local maximum at $x$.

  3. If $f''(x)=0$, then the text is inconclusive.

But there's no need to despair if the second-derivative test is inconclusive, because there is the higher-order derivative test. It states that if $x$ is a real number such that $f'(x)=0$, and $n$ is the smallest natural number such that $f^(n)(x)neq 0$, then:



  1. If $n$ is even and $f^(n)>0$, then $f$ has a local minimum at $x$.

  2. If $n$ is even and $f^(n)<0$, then $f$ has a local manimum at $x$.

  3. If $n$ is odd, then $f$ has an inflection point at $x$.

But the higher-order derivative test can also be inconclusive, if $f^(n)(x)=0$ for all $n$. My question, what can you do if the higher-order derivative test is inconclusive?



Is the first-derivative test the only option at that point, or are there other options?



EDIT: I’m interested in finding a method that depends only on the germ of $f$.



EDIT 2: Let me explain more precisely what I’m saying regarding the germ. Let $X$ be the set of all functions $f$ infinitely differentiable at $a$ where $f^(n)(a)=0$ for all $n$. Two functions $f$ and $g$ in $X$ belong to the same germ if there is an open interval $I$ containing $a$ such that $f(x) = g(x)$ for all $x$ in $I$. Now let $Y$ be the set of germs of $X$. I want to know if there exists a nontrivial function $F:YrightarrowmathbbR$ such that if $F$ evaluated at a particular germ yields a positive number, then all the functions in the germ have a local minimum at $a$, and if it yields a negative number then all the functions in the germ have a local maximum at $a$.







share|cite|improve this question














The second-derivative test states that if $x$ is a real number such that $f'(x)=0$, then:



  1. If $f''(x)>0$, then $f$ has a local minimum at $x$.

  2. If $f''(x)<0$, then $f$ has a local maximum at $x$.

  3. If $f''(x)=0$, then the text is inconclusive.

But there's no need to despair if the second-derivative test is inconclusive, because there is the higher-order derivative test. It states that if $x$ is a real number such that $f'(x)=0$, and $n$ is the smallest natural number such that $f^(n)(x)neq 0$, then:



  1. If $n$ is even and $f^(n)>0$, then $f$ has a local minimum at $x$.

  2. If $n$ is even and $f^(n)<0$, then $f$ has a local manimum at $x$.

  3. If $n$ is odd, then $f$ has an inflection point at $x$.

But the higher-order derivative test can also be inconclusive, if $f^(n)(x)=0$ for all $n$. My question, what can you do if the higher-order derivative test is inconclusive?



Is the first-derivative test the only option at that point, or are there other options?



EDIT: I’m interested in finding a method that depends only on the germ of $f$.



EDIT 2: Let me explain more precisely what I’m saying regarding the germ. Let $X$ be the set of all functions $f$ infinitely differentiable at $a$ where $f^(n)(a)=0$ for all $n$. Two functions $f$ and $g$ in $X$ belong to the same germ if there is an open interval $I$ containing $a$ such that $f(x) = g(x)$ for all $x$ in $I$. Now let $Y$ be the set of germs of $X$. I want to know if there exists a nontrivial function $F:YrightarrowmathbbR$ such that if $F$ evaluated at a particular germ yields a positive number, then all the functions in the germ have a local minimum at $a$, and if it yields a negative number then all the functions in the germ have a local maximum at $a$.









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share|cite|improve this question




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edited Aug 22 at 4:50

























asked Aug 4 at 4:45









Keshav Srinivasan

1,84511339




1,84511339











  • The case you are talking about is for the polynomials of degree $m<n$. However, if you see that $f^n$$(x)$ $=$ $0$ $forall nin N$, then then the function must be a constant one, right ?? @Keshav Srinivasan
    – Anik Bhowmick
    Aug 4 at 4:53











  • @AnikBhowmick I'm not talking about polynomials, I'm talking about smooth functions in general. If you have an infinitely differentiable function $f$ whose derivatives of all orders evaluated at a given point $x$ is zero, then the higher-order derivative test fails. But that doesn't mean that $f$ is a constant function. For instance consider the example function given here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-analytic_smooth_function
    – Keshav Srinivasan
    Aug 4 at 5:01






  • 1




    I assume you meant to ask what can you do if the higher-order derivative test is inconclusive?
    – N. F. Taussig
    Aug 4 at 8:14










  • @N.F.Taussig Yes
    – Keshav Srinivasan
    Aug 4 at 12:34
















  • The case you are talking about is for the polynomials of degree $m<n$. However, if you see that $f^n$$(x)$ $=$ $0$ $forall nin N$, then then the function must be a constant one, right ?? @Keshav Srinivasan
    – Anik Bhowmick
    Aug 4 at 4:53











  • @AnikBhowmick I'm not talking about polynomials, I'm talking about smooth functions in general. If you have an infinitely differentiable function $f$ whose derivatives of all orders evaluated at a given point $x$ is zero, then the higher-order derivative test fails. But that doesn't mean that $f$ is a constant function. For instance consider the example function given here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-analytic_smooth_function
    – Keshav Srinivasan
    Aug 4 at 5:01






  • 1




    I assume you meant to ask what can you do if the higher-order derivative test is inconclusive?
    – N. F. Taussig
    Aug 4 at 8:14










  • @N.F.Taussig Yes
    – Keshav Srinivasan
    Aug 4 at 12:34















The case you are talking about is for the polynomials of degree $m<n$. However, if you see that $f^n$$(x)$ $=$ $0$ $forall nin N$, then then the function must be a constant one, right ?? @Keshav Srinivasan
– Anik Bhowmick
Aug 4 at 4:53





The case you are talking about is for the polynomials of degree $m<n$. However, if you see that $f^n$$(x)$ $=$ $0$ $forall nin N$, then then the function must be a constant one, right ?? @Keshav Srinivasan
– Anik Bhowmick
Aug 4 at 4:53













@AnikBhowmick I'm not talking about polynomials, I'm talking about smooth functions in general. If you have an infinitely differentiable function $f$ whose derivatives of all orders evaluated at a given point $x$ is zero, then the higher-order derivative test fails. But that doesn't mean that $f$ is a constant function. For instance consider the example function given here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-analytic_smooth_function
– Keshav Srinivasan
Aug 4 at 5:01




@AnikBhowmick I'm not talking about polynomials, I'm talking about smooth functions in general. If you have an infinitely differentiable function $f$ whose derivatives of all orders evaluated at a given point $x$ is zero, then the higher-order derivative test fails. But that doesn't mean that $f$ is a constant function. For instance consider the example function given here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-analytic_smooth_function
– Keshav Srinivasan
Aug 4 at 5:01




1




1




I assume you meant to ask what can you do if the higher-order derivative test is inconclusive?
– N. F. Taussig
Aug 4 at 8:14




I assume you meant to ask what can you do if the higher-order derivative test is inconclusive?
– N. F. Taussig
Aug 4 at 8:14












@N.F.Taussig Yes
– Keshav Srinivasan
Aug 4 at 12:34




@N.F.Taussig Yes
– Keshav Srinivasan
Aug 4 at 12:34










1 Answer
1






active

oldest

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up vote
1
down vote













The proofs of derivative tests for optimality are based on Taylor's theorem. The Taylor series of bump functions do not provide useful information, so the tests are not helpful. You can study the function values of a sequence that converges to $x$ to rule out maximality or minimality. If $f(x_i)<f(x)$ (or vice versa) for all $i$ and $x_irightarrow x$ as $irightarrowinfty$, then $x$ cannot be a minimum (or maximum).






share|cite|improve this answer




















  • Is there any way to do it other than actually looking at the values of the function outside the point? In principle there should be some way to do it that depends only on the germ of $f$.
    – Keshav Srinivasan
    Aug 4 at 21:29











  • On a related note, I posted a question here about what information characterizes the germ of a smooth function: math.stackexchange.com/q/2870699/71829
    – Keshav Srinivasan
    Aug 4 at 21:37










  • I think you have to look outside of the point.
    – Asdf
    Aug 5 at 2:04










  • But what about my point about the germ?
    – Keshav Srinivasan
    Aug 5 at 2:21










  • I don't see how it makes a difference. If you only look at the values of $f^(n)$ at $x$, then $f$ could be any function in the germ. This includes functions which have a max, a min, or a saddle point at $x$. If the germ consists of analytic functions, then equal derivatives of all order implies that there is only one function (by Taylor's theorem).
    – Asdf
    Aug 5 at 2:38










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1 Answer
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active

oldest

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active

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up vote
1
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The proofs of derivative tests for optimality are based on Taylor's theorem. The Taylor series of bump functions do not provide useful information, so the tests are not helpful. You can study the function values of a sequence that converges to $x$ to rule out maximality or minimality. If $f(x_i)<f(x)$ (or vice versa) for all $i$ and $x_irightarrow x$ as $irightarrowinfty$, then $x$ cannot be a minimum (or maximum).






share|cite|improve this answer




















  • Is there any way to do it other than actually looking at the values of the function outside the point? In principle there should be some way to do it that depends only on the germ of $f$.
    – Keshav Srinivasan
    Aug 4 at 21:29











  • On a related note, I posted a question here about what information characterizes the germ of a smooth function: math.stackexchange.com/q/2870699/71829
    – Keshav Srinivasan
    Aug 4 at 21:37










  • I think you have to look outside of the point.
    – Asdf
    Aug 5 at 2:04










  • But what about my point about the germ?
    – Keshav Srinivasan
    Aug 5 at 2:21










  • I don't see how it makes a difference. If you only look at the values of $f^(n)$ at $x$, then $f$ could be any function in the germ. This includes functions which have a max, a min, or a saddle point at $x$. If the germ consists of analytic functions, then equal derivatives of all order implies that there is only one function (by Taylor's theorem).
    – Asdf
    Aug 5 at 2:38














up vote
1
down vote













The proofs of derivative tests for optimality are based on Taylor's theorem. The Taylor series of bump functions do not provide useful information, so the tests are not helpful. You can study the function values of a sequence that converges to $x$ to rule out maximality or minimality. If $f(x_i)<f(x)$ (or vice versa) for all $i$ and $x_irightarrow x$ as $irightarrowinfty$, then $x$ cannot be a minimum (or maximum).






share|cite|improve this answer




















  • Is there any way to do it other than actually looking at the values of the function outside the point? In principle there should be some way to do it that depends only on the germ of $f$.
    – Keshav Srinivasan
    Aug 4 at 21:29











  • On a related note, I posted a question here about what information characterizes the germ of a smooth function: math.stackexchange.com/q/2870699/71829
    – Keshav Srinivasan
    Aug 4 at 21:37










  • I think you have to look outside of the point.
    – Asdf
    Aug 5 at 2:04










  • But what about my point about the germ?
    – Keshav Srinivasan
    Aug 5 at 2:21










  • I don't see how it makes a difference. If you only look at the values of $f^(n)$ at $x$, then $f$ could be any function in the germ. This includes functions which have a max, a min, or a saddle point at $x$. If the germ consists of analytic functions, then equal derivatives of all order implies that there is only one function (by Taylor's theorem).
    – Asdf
    Aug 5 at 2:38












up vote
1
down vote










up vote
1
down vote









The proofs of derivative tests for optimality are based on Taylor's theorem. The Taylor series of bump functions do not provide useful information, so the tests are not helpful. You can study the function values of a sequence that converges to $x$ to rule out maximality or minimality. If $f(x_i)<f(x)$ (or vice versa) for all $i$ and $x_irightarrow x$ as $irightarrowinfty$, then $x$ cannot be a minimum (or maximum).






share|cite|improve this answer












The proofs of derivative tests for optimality are based on Taylor's theorem. The Taylor series of bump functions do not provide useful information, so the tests are not helpful. You can study the function values of a sequence that converges to $x$ to rule out maximality or minimality. If $f(x_i)<f(x)$ (or vice versa) for all $i$ and $x_irightarrow x$ as $irightarrowinfty$, then $x$ cannot be a minimum (or maximum).







share|cite|improve this answer












share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer










answered Aug 4 at 20:20









Asdf

13911




13911











  • Is there any way to do it other than actually looking at the values of the function outside the point? In principle there should be some way to do it that depends only on the germ of $f$.
    – Keshav Srinivasan
    Aug 4 at 21:29











  • On a related note, I posted a question here about what information characterizes the germ of a smooth function: math.stackexchange.com/q/2870699/71829
    – Keshav Srinivasan
    Aug 4 at 21:37










  • I think you have to look outside of the point.
    – Asdf
    Aug 5 at 2:04










  • But what about my point about the germ?
    – Keshav Srinivasan
    Aug 5 at 2:21










  • I don't see how it makes a difference. If you only look at the values of $f^(n)$ at $x$, then $f$ could be any function in the germ. This includes functions which have a max, a min, or a saddle point at $x$. If the germ consists of analytic functions, then equal derivatives of all order implies that there is only one function (by Taylor's theorem).
    – Asdf
    Aug 5 at 2:38
















  • Is there any way to do it other than actually looking at the values of the function outside the point? In principle there should be some way to do it that depends only on the germ of $f$.
    – Keshav Srinivasan
    Aug 4 at 21:29











  • On a related note, I posted a question here about what information characterizes the germ of a smooth function: math.stackexchange.com/q/2870699/71829
    – Keshav Srinivasan
    Aug 4 at 21:37










  • I think you have to look outside of the point.
    – Asdf
    Aug 5 at 2:04










  • But what about my point about the germ?
    – Keshav Srinivasan
    Aug 5 at 2:21










  • I don't see how it makes a difference. If you only look at the values of $f^(n)$ at $x$, then $f$ could be any function in the germ. This includes functions which have a max, a min, or a saddle point at $x$. If the germ consists of analytic functions, then equal derivatives of all order implies that there is only one function (by Taylor's theorem).
    – Asdf
    Aug 5 at 2:38















Is there any way to do it other than actually looking at the values of the function outside the point? In principle there should be some way to do it that depends only on the germ of $f$.
– Keshav Srinivasan
Aug 4 at 21:29





Is there any way to do it other than actually looking at the values of the function outside the point? In principle there should be some way to do it that depends only on the germ of $f$.
– Keshav Srinivasan
Aug 4 at 21:29













On a related note, I posted a question here about what information characterizes the germ of a smooth function: math.stackexchange.com/q/2870699/71829
– Keshav Srinivasan
Aug 4 at 21:37




On a related note, I posted a question here about what information characterizes the germ of a smooth function: math.stackexchange.com/q/2870699/71829
– Keshav Srinivasan
Aug 4 at 21:37












I think you have to look outside of the point.
– Asdf
Aug 5 at 2:04




I think you have to look outside of the point.
– Asdf
Aug 5 at 2:04












But what about my point about the germ?
– Keshav Srinivasan
Aug 5 at 2:21




But what about my point about the germ?
– Keshav Srinivasan
Aug 5 at 2:21












I don't see how it makes a difference. If you only look at the values of $f^(n)$ at $x$, then $f$ could be any function in the germ. This includes functions which have a max, a min, or a saddle point at $x$. If the germ consists of analytic functions, then equal derivatives of all order implies that there is only one function (by Taylor's theorem).
– Asdf
Aug 5 at 2:38




I don't see how it makes a difference. If you only look at the values of $f^(n)$ at $x$, then $f$ could be any function in the germ. This includes functions which have a max, a min, or a saddle point at $x$. If the germ consists of analytic functions, then equal derivatives of all order implies that there is only one function (by Taylor's theorem).
– Asdf
Aug 5 at 2:38












 

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