How to prove well-foundedness of Cantorian Ordinals

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I am probably misrepresenting history but the classical naive definition
of ordinals was as equivalence classes of well-ordered sets under
order-preserving bijections. The collection of such ordinals is well-ordered
under the order defined by order-preserving injections, being well-ordered
is the whole point of ordinals.



This approach was superseded by the familiar vonNeumann approach which
provides a canonical representation of the equivalence-class based
ordinals by using ordinals defined by insert-our-favourite-definition-of
an-ordinal
as witnesses.



In the vonNeumann approach to ordinals there is not much to prove
because well-foundedness is essentially built into the definition
or inherited from regularity.



My question relates to how Cantor and his cohort proved the ordinals
were well-founded before the vonNeumann approach took over. How do
you show every nonempty set of ordinals has a minimum when dealing
with equivalence classes.



Translating I think the theorem becomes - Let $mathcalB$
be a nonempty set of well-ordered sets then there exists a well-ordered
set $M$ and an $AinmathcalB$ such $Msimeq A$ and for every
$BinmathcalB$ there is an order-preserving injection from $A$
to $B$.



Can someone give me a clue for a proof, or tell me if the question
even makes sense? I believe Cantor would have proved this without
the axiom of choice?







share|cite|improve this question
























    up vote
    1
    down vote

    favorite












    I am probably misrepresenting history but the classical naive definition
    of ordinals was as equivalence classes of well-ordered sets under
    order-preserving bijections. The collection of such ordinals is well-ordered
    under the order defined by order-preserving injections, being well-ordered
    is the whole point of ordinals.



    This approach was superseded by the familiar vonNeumann approach which
    provides a canonical representation of the equivalence-class based
    ordinals by using ordinals defined by insert-our-favourite-definition-of
    an-ordinal
    as witnesses.



    In the vonNeumann approach to ordinals there is not much to prove
    because well-foundedness is essentially built into the definition
    or inherited from regularity.



    My question relates to how Cantor and his cohort proved the ordinals
    were well-founded before the vonNeumann approach took over. How do
    you show every nonempty set of ordinals has a minimum when dealing
    with equivalence classes.



    Translating I think the theorem becomes - Let $mathcalB$
    be a nonempty set of well-ordered sets then there exists a well-ordered
    set $M$ and an $AinmathcalB$ such $Msimeq A$ and for every
    $BinmathcalB$ there is an order-preserving injection from $A$
    to $B$.



    Can someone give me a clue for a proof, or tell me if the question
    even makes sense? I believe Cantor would have proved this without
    the axiom of choice?







    share|cite|improve this question






















      up vote
      1
      down vote

      favorite









      up vote
      1
      down vote

      favorite











      I am probably misrepresenting history but the classical naive definition
      of ordinals was as equivalence classes of well-ordered sets under
      order-preserving bijections. The collection of such ordinals is well-ordered
      under the order defined by order-preserving injections, being well-ordered
      is the whole point of ordinals.



      This approach was superseded by the familiar vonNeumann approach which
      provides a canonical representation of the equivalence-class based
      ordinals by using ordinals defined by insert-our-favourite-definition-of
      an-ordinal
      as witnesses.



      In the vonNeumann approach to ordinals there is not much to prove
      because well-foundedness is essentially built into the definition
      or inherited from regularity.



      My question relates to how Cantor and his cohort proved the ordinals
      were well-founded before the vonNeumann approach took over. How do
      you show every nonempty set of ordinals has a minimum when dealing
      with equivalence classes.



      Translating I think the theorem becomes - Let $mathcalB$
      be a nonempty set of well-ordered sets then there exists a well-ordered
      set $M$ and an $AinmathcalB$ such $Msimeq A$ and for every
      $BinmathcalB$ there is an order-preserving injection from $A$
      to $B$.



      Can someone give me a clue for a proof, or tell me if the question
      even makes sense? I believe Cantor would have proved this without
      the axiom of choice?







      share|cite|improve this question












      I am probably misrepresenting history but the classical naive definition
      of ordinals was as equivalence classes of well-ordered sets under
      order-preserving bijections. The collection of such ordinals is well-ordered
      under the order defined by order-preserving injections, being well-ordered
      is the whole point of ordinals.



      This approach was superseded by the familiar vonNeumann approach which
      provides a canonical representation of the equivalence-class based
      ordinals by using ordinals defined by insert-our-favourite-definition-of
      an-ordinal
      as witnesses.



      In the vonNeumann approach to ordinals there is not much to prove
      because well-foundedness is essentially built into the definition
      or inherited from regularity.



      My question relates to how Cantor and his cohort proved the ordinals
      were well-founded before the vonNeumann approach took over. How do
      you show every nonempty set of ordinals has a minimum when dealing
      with equivalence classes.



      Translating I think the theorem becomes - Let $mathcalB$
      be a nonempty set of well-ordered sets then there exists a well-ordered
      set $M$ and an $AinmathcalB$ such $Msimeq A$ and for every
      $BinmathcalB$ there is an order-preserving injection from $A$
      to $B$.



      Can someone give me a clue for a proof, or tell me if the question
      even makes sense? I believe Cantor would have proved this without
      the axiom of choice?









      share|cite|improve this question











      share|cite|improve this question




      share|cite|improve this question










      asked Aug 22 at 6:50









      Mark Kortink

      1485




      1485




















          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes

















          up vote
          1
          down vote



          accepted










          I don't know how Cantor would have done it, but we can "locally" construct canonical representatives by embedding everything from $mathcalB$ into an upper bound, such as the supremum. So, there exists



          • A well-ordered set $sup(mathcalB)$

          • For each $A in mathcalB$, an order preserving map $I_A : A to sup(mathcalB)$ identifying $A$ with an initial segment of $sup(mathcalB)$.

          • $sup(mathcalB) = cup_A mathrmimage(I_A) mid A in mathcalB $

          By this device, we can construct a new set
          $$mathcalB' = mathrmimage(I_A) mid A in mathcalB $$
          If we are asking questions depending only on order types, then we can answer questions about $mathcalB$ by translating them into questions about $mathcalB'$.



          (I've omitted dealing with technicalities regarding the case where $mathcalB$ has equivalent objects, since they are irrelevant to the given question, and IMO they are relatively straightforward but tedious)




          The supremum can be constructed by the following device.



          Recall that any two well-ordered sets are comparable. Furthermore, if $A leq B$, then there is a (unique!) order preserving map $I_AB: A to B$ identifying $A$ with an initial segment of $B$.



          First, let $S$ be the disjoint union; that is,



          $$ S = (A,a) mid a in A wedge A in mathcalB $$



          and define a preordering



          $$ (A,a) leq (B,b) Longleftrightarrow
          begincases I_AB(a) leq b & A leq B
          \ a leq I_BA(b) & B leq A endcases $$



          Then we can take $sup(mathcalB)$ to be the equivalence classes of $S$, where $x equiv y$ iff $x leq y$ and $y leq x$.



          $leq$ will be a well-order on $sup(mathcalB)$.






          share|cite|improve this answer






















          • Thanks Hurkyl for your comprehensive answer. I will work my way through it :)
            – Mark Kortink
            Aug 22 at 22:16

















          up vote
          0
          down vote













          For any well-orders $C,D$ let $Csim D$ mean that $C,D$ are order-isomorphic.



          Let $<_C$ be a well-order on $C.$ An initial segment of $C$ is $pin C:p<_C q$ for some $qin C,$ well-ordered by $<_C.$



          Let $mathbb B$ be a non-empty family of well-ordered sets. For each $Cin mathbb B,$ if no initial segment of $C$ is order-isomorphic to a member of $mathbb B$ then let $f(C)=C.$ Otherwise let $f(C)=pin C:p<_Cq$ where $q$ is the $<_C$-least $yin C$ such that some $Din mathbb B$ satisfies $Dsim pin C:p<_Cy.$



          $(bullet).$ If $X $ is an initial segment of $f(C)$ then $X$ is also an initial segment of $C,$ and no $Ein mathbb B$ satisfies $Esim X.$



          Claim. $f(C) sim f(D)$ for all $C,Din mathbb B.$



          Proof. Suppose not. WLOG there is an order-isomorphism $g:f(D)to X$ where $X$ is an initial segment of $f(C). $ But there exists $Ein mathbb B$ and an order-isomorphism $psi:Eto f(D).$ Then the composite function $(gpsi):Eto X$ is an order-isomorphism, contrary to $(bullet).$



          So take some (any) $Cin mathbb B$ and some (any) $Ain mathbb B$ such that $Asim f(C).$ Then for every $Din mathbb B,$ either $A sim D=f(D)$ or $A$ is order-isomorphic to the initial segment $f(D)$ of $D.$






          share|cite|improve this answer






















          • BTW. The trichotomy rule for well-orders does not require AC.
            – DanielWainfleet
            Aug 27 at 1:56










          • In "Set Theory: An Introduction To Independence Proofs" by K.Kunen, an initial segment $pin C:p<_Cq$ is denoted $text pred(q$) or pred$_C(q)$ or pred$_<_C(q)$. ("pred" for predecessors.)
            – DanielWainfleet
            Aug 27 at 2:04











          • Great answer @DanielWainfleet thanks
            – Mark Kortink
            Aug 28 at 21:59










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          2 Answers
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          active

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          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

          votes








          up vote
          1
          down vote



          accepted










          I don't know how Cantor would have done it, but we can "locally" construct canonical representatives by embedding everything from $mathcalB$ into an upper bound, such as the supremum. So, there exists



          • A well-ordered set $sup(mathcalB)$

          • For each $A in mathcalB$, an order preserving map $I_A : A to sup(mathcalB)$ identifying $A$ with an initial segment of $sup(mathcalB)$.

          • $sup(mathcalB) = cup_A mathrmimage(I_A) mid A in mathcalB $

          By this device, we can construct a new set
          $$mathcalB' = mathrmimage(I_A) mid A in mathcalB $$
          If we are asking questions depending only on order types, then we can answer questions about $mathcalB$ by translating them into questions about $mathcalB'$.



          (I've omitted dealing with technicalities regarding the case where $mathcalB$ has equivalent objects, since they are irrelevant to the given question, and IMO they are relatively straightforward but tedious)




          The supremum can be constructed by the following device.



          Recall that any two well-ordered sets are comparable. Furthermore, if $A leq B$, then there is a (unique!) order preserving map $I_AB: A to B$ identifying $A$ with an initial segment of $B$.



          First, let $S$ be the disjoint union; that is,



          $$ S = (A,a) mid a in A wedge A in mathcalB $$



          and define a preordering



          $$ (A,a) leq (B,b) Longleftrightarrow
          begincases I_AB(a) leq b & A leq B
          \ a leq I_BA(b) & B leq A endcases $$



          Then we can take $sup(mathcalB)$ to be the equivalence classes of $S$, where $x equiv y$ iff $x leq y$ and $y leq x$.



          $leq$ will be a well-order on $sup(mathcalB)$.






          share|cite|improve this answer






















          • Thanks Hurkyl for your comprehensive answer. I will work my way through it :)
            – Mark Kortink
            Aug 22 at 22:16














          up vote
          1
          down vote



          accepted










          I don't know how Cantor would have done it, but we can "locally" construct canonical representatives by embedding everything from $mathcalB$ into an upper bound, such as the supremum. So, there exists



          • A well-ordered set $sup(mathcalB)$

          • For each $A in mathcalB$, an order preserving map $I_A : A to sup(mathcalB)$ identifying $A$ with an initial segment of $sup(mathcalB)$.

          • $sup(mathcalB) = cup_A mathrmimage(I_A) mid A in mathcalB $

          By this device, we can construct a new set
          $$mathcalB' = mathrmimage(I_A) mid A in mathcalB $$
          If we are asking questions depending only on order types, then we can answer questions about $mathcalB$ by translating them into questions about $mathcalB'$.



          (I've omitted dealing with technicalities regarding the case where $mathcalB$ has equivalent objects, since they are irrelevant to the given question, and IMO they are relatively straightforward but tedious)




          The supremum can be constructed by the following device.



          Recall that any two well-ordered sets are comparable. Furthermore, if $A leq B$, then there is a (unique!) order preserving map $I_AB: A to B$ identifying $A$ with an initial segment of $B$.



          First, let $S$ be the disjoint union; that is,



          $$ S = (A,a) mid a in A wedge A in mathcalB $$



          and define a preordering



          $$ (A,a) leq (B,b) Longleftrightarrow
          begincases I_AB(a) leq b & A leq B
          \ a leq I_BA(b) & B leq A endcases $$



          Then we can take $sup(mathcalB)$ to be the equivalence classes of $S$, where $x equiv y$ iff $x leq y$ and $y leq x$.



          $leq$ will be a well-order on $sup(mathcalB)$.






          share|cite|improve this answer






















          • Thanks Hurkyl for your comprehensive answer. I will work my way through it :)
            – Mark Kortink
            Aug 22 at 22:16












          up vote
          1
          down vote



          accepted







          up vote
          1
          down vote



          accepted






          I don't know how Cantor would have done it, but we can "locally" construct canonical representatives by embedding everything from $mathcalB$ into an upper bound, such as the supremum. So, there exists



          • A well-ordered set $sup(mathcalB)$

          • For each $A in mathcalB$, an order preserving map $I_A : A to sup(mathcalB)$ identifying $A$ with an initial segment of $sup(mathcalB)$.

          • $sup(mathcalB) = cup_A mathrmimage(I_A) mid A in mathcalB $

          By this device, we can construct a new set
          $$mathcalB' = mathrmimage(I_A) mid A in mathcalB $$
          If we are asking questions depending only on order types, then we can answer questions about $mathcalB$ by translating them into questions about $mathcalB'$.



          (I've omitted dealing with technicalities regarding the case where $mathcalB$ has equivalent objects, since they are irrelevant to the given question, and IMO they are relatively straightforward but tedious)




          The supremum can be constructed by the following device.



          Recall that any two well-ordered sets are comparable. Furthermore, if $A leq B$, then there is a (unique!) order preserving map $I_AB: A to B$ identifying $A$ with an initial segment of $B$.



          First, let $S$ be the disjoint union; that is,



          $$ S = (A,a) mid a in A wedge A in mathcalB $$



          and define a preordering



          $$ (A,a) leq (B,b) Longleftrightarrow
          begincases I_AB(a) leq b & A leq B
          \ a leq I_BA(b) & B leq A endcases $$



          Then we can take $sup(mathcalB)$ to be the equivalence classes of $S$, where $x equiv y$ iff $x leq y$ and $y leq x$.



          $leq$ will be a well-order on $sup(mathcalB)$.






          share|cite|improve this answer














          I don't know how Cantor would have done it, but we can "locally" construct canonical representatives by embedding everything from $mathcalB$ into an upper bound, such as the supremum. So, there exists



          • A well-ordered set $sup(mathcalB)$

          • For each $A in mathcalB$, an order preserving map $I_A : A to sup(mathcalB)$ identifying $A$ with an initial segment of $sup(mathcalB)$.

          • $sup(mathcalB) = cup_A mathrmimage(I_A) mid A in mathcalB $

          By this device, we can construct a new set
          $$mathcalB' = mathrmimage(I_A) mid A in mathcalB $$
          If we are asking questions depending only on order types, then we can answer questions about $mathcalB$ by translating them into questions about $mathcalB'$.



          (I've omitted dealing with technicalities regarding the case where $mathcalB$ has equivalent objects, since they are irrelevant to the given question, and IMO they are relatively straightforward but tedious)




          The supremum can be constructed by the following device.



          Recall that any two well-ordered sets are comparable. Furthermore, if $A leq B$, then there is a (unique!) order preserving map $I_AB: A to B$ identifying $A$ with an initial segment of $B$.



          First, let $S$ be the disjoint union; that is,



          $$ S = (A,a) mid a in A wedge A in mathcalB $$



          and define a preordering



          $$ (A,a) leq (B,b) Longleftrightarrow
          begincases I_AB(a) leq b & A leq B
          \ a leq I_BA(b) & B leq A endcases $$



          Then we can take $sup(mathcalB)$ to be the equivalence classes of $S$, where $x equiv y$ iff $x leq y$ and $y leq x$.



          $leq$ will be a well-order on $sup(mathcalB)$.







          share|cite|improve this answer














          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer








          edited Aug 22 at 7:25

























          answered Aug 22 at 7:17









          Hurkyl

          109k9113254




          109k9113254











          • Thanks Hurkyl for your comprehensive answer. I will work my way through it :)
            – Mark Kortink
            Aug 22 at 22:16
















          • Thanks Hurkyl for your comprehensive answer. I will work my way through it :)
            – Mark Kortink
            Aug 22 at 22:16















          Thanks Hurkyl for your comprehensive answer. I will work my way through it :)
          – Mark Kortink
          Aug 22 at 22:16




          Thanks Hurkyl for your comprehensive answer. I will work my way through it :)
          – Mark Kortink
          Aug 22 at 22:16










          up vote
          0
          down vote













          For any well-orders $C,D$ let $Csim D$ mean that $C,D$ are order-isomorphic.



          Let $<_C$ be a well-order on $C.$ An initial segment of $C$ is $pin C:p<_C q$ for some $qin C,$ well-ordered by $<_C.$



          Let $mathbb B$ be a non-empty family of well-ordered sets. For each $Cin mathbb B,$ if no initial segment of $C$ is order-isomorphic to a member of $mathbb B$ then let $f(C)=C.$ Otherwise let $f(C)=pin C:p<_Cq$ where $q$ is the $<_C$-least $yin C$ such that some $Din mathbb B$ satisfies $Dsim pin C:p<_Cy.$



          $(bullet).$ If $X $ is an initial segment of $f(C)$ then $X$ is also an initial segment of $C,$ and no $Ein mathbb B$ satisfies $Esim X.$



          Claim. $f(C) sim f(D)$ for all $C,Din mathbb B.$



          Proof. Suppose not. WLOG there is an order-isomorphism $g:f(D)to X$ where $X$ is an initial segment of $f(C). $ But there exists $Ein mathbb B$ and an order-isomorphism $psi:Eto f(D).$ Then the composite function $(gpsi):Eto X$ is an order-isomorphism, contrary to $(bullet).$



          So take some (any) $Cin mathbb B$ and some (any) $Ain mathbb B$ such that $Asim f(C).$ Then for every $Din mathbb B,$ either $A sim D=f(D)$ or $A$ is order-isomorphic to the initial segment $f(D)$ of $D.$






          share|cite|improve this answer






















          • BTW. The trichotomy rule for well-orders does not require AC.
            – DanielWainfleet
            Aug 27 at 1:56










          • In "Set Theory: An Introduction To Independence Proofs" by K.Kunen, an initial segment $pin C:p<_Cq$ is denoted $text pred(q$) or pred$_C(q)$ or pred$_<_C(q)$. ("pred" for predecessors.)
            – DanielWainfleet
            Aug 27 at 2:04











          • Great answer @DanielWainfleet thanks
            – Mark Kortink
            Aug 28 at 21:59














          up vote
          0
          down vote













          For any well-orders $C,D$ let $Csim D$ mean that $C,D$ are order-isomorphic.



          Let $<_C$ be a well-order on $C.$ An initial segment of $C$ is $pin C:p<_C q$ for some $qin C,$ well-ordered by $<_C.$



          Let $mathbb B$ be a non-empty family of well-ordered sets. For each $Cin mathbb B,$ if no initial segment of $C$ is order-isomorphic to a member of $mathbb B$ then let $f(C)=C.$ Otherwise let $f(C)=pin C:p<_Cq$ where $q$ is the $<_C$-least $yin C$ such that some $Din mathbb B$ satisfies $Dsim pin C:p<_Cy.$



          $(bullet).$ If $X $ is an initial segment of $f(C)$ then $X$ is also an initial segment of $C,$ and no $Ein mathbb B$ satisfies $Esim X.$



          Claim. $f(C) sim f(D)$ for all $C,Din mathbb B.$



          Proof. Suppose not. WLOG there is an order-isomorphism $g:f(D)to X$ where $X$ is an initial segment of $f(C). $ But there exists $Ein mathbb B$ and an order-isomorphism $psi:Eto f(D).$ Then the composite function $(gpsi):Eto X$ is an order-isomorphism, contrary to $(bullet).$



          So take some (any) $Cin mathbb B$ and some (any) $Ain mathbb B$ such that $Asim f(C).$ Then for every $Din mathbb B,$ either $A sim D=f(D)$ or $A$ is order-isomorphic to the initial segment $f(D)$ of $D.$






          share|cite|improve this answer






















          • BTW. The trichotomy rule for well-orders does not require AC.
            – DanielWainfleet
            Aug 27 at 1:56










          • In "Set Theory: An Introduction To Independence Proofs" by K.Kunen, an initial segment $pin C:p<_Cq$ is denoted $text pred(q$) or pred$_C(q)$ or pred$_<_C(q)$. ("pred" for predecessors.)
            – DanielWainfleet
            Aug 27 at 2:04











          • Great answer @DanielWainfleet thanks
            – Mark Kortink
            Aug 28 at 21:59












          up vote
          0
          down vote










          up vote
          0
          down vote









          For any well-orders $C,D$ let $Csim D$ mean that $C,D$ are order-isomorphic.



          Let $<_C$ be a well-order on $C.$ An initial segment of $C$ is $pin C:p<_C q$ for some $qin C,$ well-ordered by $<_C.$



          Let $mathbb B$ be a non-empty family of well-ordered sets. For each $Cin mathbb B,$ if no initial segment of $C$ is order-isomorphic to a member of $mathbb B$ then let $f(C)=C.$ Otherwise let $f(C)=pin C:p<_Cq$ where $q$ is the $<_C$-least $yin C$ such that some $Din mathbb B$ satisfies $Dsim pin C:p<_Cy.$



          $(bullet).$ If $X $ is an initial segment of $f(C)$ then $X$ is also an initial segment of $C,$ and no $Ein mathbb B$ satisfies $Esim X.$



          Claim. $f(C) sim f(D)$ for all $C,Din mathbb B.$



          Proof. Suppose not. WLOG there is an order-isomorphism $g:f(D)to X$ where $X$ is an initial segment of $f(C). $ But there exists $Ein mathbb B$ and an order-isomorphism $psi:Eto f(D).$ Then the composite function $(gpsi):Eto X$ is an order-isomorphism, contrary to $(bullet).$



          So take some (any) $Cin mathbb B$ and some (any) $Ain mathbb B$ such that $Asim f(C).$ Then for every $Din mathbb B,$ either $A sim D=f(D)$ or $A$ is order-isomorphic to the initial segment $f(D)$ of $D.$






          share|cite|improve this answer














          For any well-orders $C,D$ let $Csim D$ mean that $C,D$ are order-isomorphic.



          Let $<_C$ be a well-order on $C.$ An initial segment of $C$ is $pin C:p<_C q$ for some $qin C,$ well-ordered by $<_C.$



          Let $mathbb B$ be a non-empty family of well-ordered sets. For each $Cin mathbb B,$ if no initial segment of $C$ is order-isomorphic to a member of $mathbb B$ then let $f(C)=C.$ Otherwise let $f(C)=pin C:p<_Cq$ where $q$ is the $<_C$-least $yin C$ such that some $Din mathbb B$ satisfies $Dsim pin C:p<_Cy.$



          $(bullet).$ If $X $ is an initial segment of $f(C)$ then $X$ is also an initial segment of $C,$ and no $Ein mathbb B$ satisfies $Esim X.$



          Claim. $f(C) sim f(D)$ for all $C,Din mathbb B.$



          Proof. Suppose not. WLOG there is an order-isomorphism $g:f(D)to X$ where $X$ is an initial segment of $f(C). $ But there exists $Ein mathbb B$ and an order-isomorphism $psi:Eto f(D).$ Then the composite function $(gpsi):Eto X$ is an order-isomorphism, contrary to $(bullet).$



          So take some (any) $Cin mathbb B$ and some (any) $Ain mathbb B$ such that $Asim f(C).$ Then for every $Din mathbb B,$ either $A sim D=f(D)$ or $A$ is order-isomorphic to the initial segment $f(D)$ of $D.$







          share|cite|improve this answer














          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer








          edited Aug 27 at 2:02

























          answered Aug 27 at 1:54









          DanielWainfleet

          32k31644




          32k31644











          • BTW. The trichotomy rule for well-orders does not require AC.
            – DanielWainfleet
            Aug 27 at 1:56










          • In "Set Theory: An Introduction To Independence Proofs" by K.Kunen, an initial segment $pin C:p<_Cq$ is denoted $text pred(q$) or pred$_C(q)$ or pred$_<_C(q)$. ("pred" for predecessors.)
            – DanielWainfleet
            Aug 27 at 2:04











          • Great answer @DanielWainfleet thanks
            – Mark Kortink
            Aug 28 at 21:59
















          • BTW. The trichotomy rule for well-orders does not require AC.
            – DanielWainfleet
            Aug 27 at 1:56










          • In "Set Theory: An Introduction To Independence Proofs" by K.Kunen, an initial segment $pin C:p<_Cq$ is denoted $text pred(q$) or pred$_C(q)$ or pred$_<_C(q)$. ("pred" for predecessors.)
            – DanielWainfleet
            Aug 27 at 2:04











          • Great answer @DanielWainfleet thanks
            – Mark Kortink
            Aug 28 at 21:59















          BTW. The trichotomy rule for well-orders does not require AC.
          – DanielWainfleet
          Aug 27 at 1:56




          BTW. The trichotomy rule for well-orders does not require AC.
          – DanielWainfleet
          Aug 27 at 1:56












          In "Set Theory: An Introduction To Independence Proofs" by K.Kunen, an initial segment $pin C:p<_Cq$ is denoted $text pred(q$) or pred$_C(q)$ or pred$_<_C(q)$. ("pred" for predecessors.)
          – DanielWainfleet
          Aug 27 at 2:04





          In "Set Theory: An Introduction To Independence Proofs" by K.Kunen, an initial segment $pin C:p<_Cq$ is denoted $text pred(q$) or pred$_C(q)$ or pred$_<_C(q)$. ("pred" for predecessors.)
          – DanielWainfleet
          Aug 27 at 2:04













          Great answer @DanielWainfleet thanks
          – Mark Kortink
          Aug 28 at 21:59




          Great answer @DanielWainfleet thanks
          – Mark Kortink
          Aug 28 at 21:59












           

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