Problem about real coefficient polynomial
Clash Royale CLAN TAG#URR8PPP
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Let $p(x)$ be a real coefficient polynomial. Assume that there exits $ain mathbbR$ s.t. $p(a)neq 0$ but $p'(a) = p''(a) = 0$. Show that $p(x)$ has at least one non-real root.
This is a problem from today's exam, and actually, I already have a solution. However, I can't understand the solution, so I tried to do it my self in the following direction:
Assume that $p(x)$ is a monic polynomial. We can just set $p(x) = (x-a)^3q(x) + B$ for some $Bneq 0$. If $p$ has only real roots, we have $p(x) = (x-alpha_1)cdots (x-alpha_n)$ for some $alpha_1leq cdots leq alpha_n$. Then we have $(x-a)^3q(x)+B = (x-alpha_1)cdots(x-alpha_n)$, and I can' proceed from here.
Here's the original solution:
Solution:
Observe that if $q(z)$ is a real-rooted polynomial with distinct roots, then by RolleâÂÂs theorem $q'(z)$ is also real-rooted (since it has degree one less than the degree of $q$) and has the property that between every two roots of $q'$ there is a root of $q$.
Since polynomials with distinct roots are dense in the set of real-rooted polynomials, this implies that if $q$ is any real-rooted polynomial and $q'(z)$ has a double root at $z$ then $q(z) = 0$.
For the given polynomial $p'(z)$ has a double root at $a$, but $p(a) neq 0$, so $p$ cannot be real-rooted.
(Original image here.)
polynomials
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up vote
2
down vote
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Let $p(x)$ be a real coefficient polynomial. Assume that there exits $ain mathbbR$ s.t. $p(a)neq 0$ but $p'(a) = p''(a) = 0$. Show that $p(x)$ has at least one non-real root.
This is a problem from today's exam, and actually, I already have a solution. However, I can't understand the solution, so I tried to do it my self in the following direction:
Assume that $p(x)$ is a monic polynomial. We can just set $p(x) = (x-a)^3q(x) + B$ for some $Bneq 0$. If $p$ has only real roots, we have $p(x) = (x-alpha_1)cdots (x-alpha_n)$ for some $alpha_1leq cdots leq alpha_n$. Then we have $(x-a)^3q(x)+B = (x-alpha_1)cdots(x-alpha_n)$, and I can' proceed from here.
Here's the original solution:
Solution:
Observe that if $q(z)$ is a real-rooted polynomial with distinct roots, then by RolleâÂÂs theorem $q'(z)$ is also real-rooted (since it has degree one less than the degree of $q$) and has the property that between every two roots of $q'$ there is a root of $q$.
Since polynomials with distinct roots are dense in the set of real-rooted polynomials, this implies that if $q$ is any real-rooted polynomial and $q'(z)$ has a double root at $z$ then $q(z) = 0$.
For the given polynomial $p'(z)$ has a double root at $a$, but $p(a) neq 0$, so $p$ cannot be real-rooted.
(Original image here.)
polynomials
What was the solution?
â 4-ier
Aug 22 at 6:43
@4-ier I just added.
â Seewoo Lee
Aug 22 at 6:44
Thanks. What about it do you have trouble with?
â 4-ier
Aug 22 at 6:45
@4-ier I can't understand the solution at all, especially the second sentence.
â Seewoo Lee
Aug 22 at 6:48
Ok, thanks. Wanted to see where you were at.
â 4-ier
Aug 22 at 6:49
 |Â
show 1 more comment
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
up vote
2
down vote
favorite
Let $p(x)$ be a real coefficient polynomial. Assume that there exits $ain mathbbR$ s.t. $p(a)neq 0$ but $p'(a) = p''(a) = 0$. Show that $p(x)$ has at least one non-real root.
This is a problem from today's exam, and actually, I already have a solution. However, I can't understand the solution, so I tried to do it my self in the following direction:
Assume that $p(x)$ is a monic polynomial. We can just set $p(x) = (x-a)^3q(x) + B$ for some $Bneq 0$. If $p$ has only real roots, we have $p(x) = (x-alpha_1)cdots (x-alpha_n)$ for some $alpha_1leq cdots leq alpha_n$. Then we have $(x-a)^3q(x)+B = (x-alpha_1)cdots(x-alpha_n)$, and I can' proceed from here.
Here's the original solution:
Solution:
Observe that if $q(z)$ is a real-rooted polynomial with distinct roots, then by RolleâÂÂs theorem $q'(z)$ is also real-rooted (since it has degree one less than the degree of $q$) and has the property that between every two roots of $q'$ there is a root of $q$.
Since polynomials with distinct roots are dense in the set of real-rooted polynomials, this implies that if $q$ is any real-rooted polynomial and $q'(z)$ has a double root at $z$ then $q(z) = 0$.
For the given polynomial $p'(z)$ has a double root at $a$, but $p(a) neq 0$, so $p$ cannot be real-rooted.
(Original image here.)
polynomials
Let $p(x)$ be a real coefficient polynomial. Assume that there exits $ain mathbbR$ s.t. $p(a)neq 0$ but $p'(a) = p''(a) = 0$. Show that $p(x)$ has at least one non-real root.
This is a problem from today's exam, and actually, I already have a solution. However, I can't understand the solution, so I tried to do it my self in the following direction:
Assume that $p(x)$ is a monic polynomial. We can just set $p(x) = (x-a)^3q(x) + B$ for some $Bneq 0$. If $p$ has only real roots, we have $p(x) = (x-alpha_1)cdots (x-alpha_n)$ for some $alpha_1leq cdots leq alpha_n$. Then we have $(x-a)^3q(x)+B = (x-alpha_1)cdots(x-alpha_n)$, and I can' proceed from here.
Here's the original solution:
Solution:
Observe that if $q(z)$ is a real-rooted polynomial with distinct roots, then by RolleâÂÂs theorem $q'(z)$ is also real-rooted (since it has degree one less than the degree of $q$) and has the property that between every two roots of $q'$ there is a root of $q$.
Since polynomials with distinct roots are dense in the set of real-rooted polynomials, this implies that if $q$ is any real-rooted polynomial and $q'(z)$ has a double root at $z$ then $q(z) = 0$.
For the given polynomial $p'(z)$ has a double root at $a$, but $p(a) neq 0$, so $p$ cannot be real-rooted.
(Original image here.)
polynomials
edited Aug 23 at 11:02
Jendrik Stelzner
7,57221037
7,57221037
asked Aug 22 at 6:23
Seewoo Lee
4,910824
4,910824
What was the solution?
â 4-ier
Aug 22 at 6:43
@4-ier I just added.
â Seewoo Lee
Aug 22 at 6:44
Thanks. What about it do you have trouble with?
â 4-ier
Aug 22 at 6:45
@4-ier I can't understand the solution at all, especially the second sentence.
â Seewoo Lee
Aug 22 at 6:48
Ok, thanks. Wanted to see where you were at.
â 4-ier
Aug 22 at 6:49
 |Â
show 1 more comment
What was the solution?
â 4-ier
Aug 22 at 6:43
@4-ier I just added.
â Seewoo Lee
Aug 22 at 6:44
Thanks. What about it do you have trouble with?
â 4-ier
Aug 22 at 6:45
@4-ier I can't understand the solution at all, especially the second sentence.
â Seewoo Lee
Aug 22 at 6:48
Ok, thanks. Wanted to see where you were at.
â 4-ier
Aug 22 at 6:49
What was the solution?
â 4-ier
Aug 22 at 6:43
What was the solution?
â 4-ier
Aug 22 at 6:43
@4-ier I just added.
â Seewoo Lee
Aug 22 at 6:44
@4-ier I just added.
â Seewoo Lee
Aug 22 at 6:44
Thanks. What about it do you have trouble with?
â 4-ier
Aug 22 at 6:45
Thanks. What about it do you have trouble with?
â 4-ier
Aug 22 at 6:45
@4-ier I can't understand the solution at all, especially the second sentence.
â Seewoo Lee
Aug 22 at 6:48
@4-ier I can't understand the solution at all, especially the second sentence.
â Seewoo Lee
Aug 22 at 6:48
Ok, thanks. Wanted to see where you were at.
â 4-ier
Aug 22 at 6:49
Ok, thanks. Wanted to see where you were at.
â 4-ier
Aug 22 at 6:49
 |Â
show 1 more comment
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
up vote
1
down vote
accepted
Honestly, I find the "original solution" to be quite hand-waving the density argument.
For an alternative direct proof, consider that translation along the $,x,$ axis preserves the nature of the roots (real vs. complex) of a real polynomial, so it can be assumed WLOG that $,a=0,$, then:
$$p(x)=a_nx^n+a_n-1x^n-1+ldots+a_3x^3+a_0 quadquad stylefont-family:inherittextwith ;;a_n ne 0;;stylefont-family:inherittextand;; p(0)=a_0 ne0$$
If the roots of $,p(x),$ are $,x_i ne 0,$ then the polynomial having as roots $,y_i=1 / x_i,$ is:
$$q(y)=y^npleft(frac1yright)=a_0y^n+a_3y^n-3+ldots+a_n-1y+a_n$$
By Vieta's relations $,sum_i y_i = 0,$ and $,sum_i lt j y_iy_j = 0,$, so $,sum_i y_i^2 = left(sum_i y_iright)^2-2sum_i lt j y_iy_j=0,$. If all $,y_i,$ were real, that would imply $,y_i=0,$, but $,a_n ne 0,$ so none of the roots can be $,0,$. It follows that not all $,y_i,$ can be real, and therefore not all of $,x_i,$ are real.
1
I think this solution is much better than the original one to understand! Thank you very much.
â Seewoo Lee
Aug 23 at 1:48
add a comment |Â
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
1
down vote
accepted
Honestly, I find the "original solution" to be quite hand-waving the density argument.
For an alternative direct proof, consider that translation along the $,x,$ axis preserves the nature of the roots (real vs. complex) of a real polynomial, so it can be assumed WLOG that $,a=0,$, then:
$$p(x)=a_nx^n+a_n-1x^n-1+ldots+a_3x^3+a_0 quadquad stylefont-family:inherittextwith ;;a_n ne 0;;stylefont-family:inherittextand;; p(0)=a_0 ne0$$
If the roots of $,p(x),$ are $,x_i ne 0,$ then the polynomial having as roots $,y_i=1 / x_i,$ is:
$$q(y)=y^npleft(frac1yright)=a_0y^n+a_3y^n-3+ldots+a_n-1y+a_n$$
By Vieta's relations $,sum_i y_i = 0,$ and $,sum_i lt j y_iy_j = 0,$, so $,sum_i y_i^2 = left(sum_i y_iright)^2-2sum_i lt j y_iy_j=0,$. If all $,y_i,$ were real, that would imply $,y_i=0,$, but $,a_n ne 0,$ so none of the roots can be $,0,$. It follows that not all $,y_i,$ can be real, and therefore not all of $,x_i,$ are real.
1
I think this solution is much better than the original one to understand! Thank you very much.
â Seewoo Lee
Aug 23 at 1:48
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
accepted
Honestly, I find the "original solution" to be quite hand-waving the density argument.
For an alternative direct proof, consider that translation along the $,x,$ axis preserves the nature of the roots (real vs. complex) of a real polynomial, so it can be assumed WLOG that $,a=0,$, then:
$$p(x)=a_nx^n+a_n-1x^n-1+ldots+a_3x^3+a_0 quadquad stylefont-family:inherittextwith ;;a_n ne 0;;stylefont-family:inherittextand;; p(0)=a_0 ne0$$
If the roots of $,p(x),$ are $,x_i ne 0,$ then the polynomial having as roots $,y_i=1 / x_i,$ is:
$$q(y)=y^npleft(frac1yright)=a_0y^n+a_3y^n-3+ldots+a_n-1y+a_n$$
By Vieta's relations $,sum_i y_i = 0,$ and $,sum_i lt j y_iy_j = 0,$, so $,sum_i y_i^2 = left(sum_i y_iright)^2-2sum_i lt j y_iy_j=0,$. If all $,y_i,$ were real, that would imply $,y_i=0,$, but $,a_n ne 0,$ so none of the roots can be $,0,$. It follows that not all $,y_i,$ can be real, and therefore not all of $,x_i,$ are real.
1
I think this solution is much better than the original one to understand! Thank you very much.
â Seewoo Lee
Aug 23 at 1:48
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
accepted
up vote
1
down vote
accepted
Honestly, I find the "original solution" to be quite hand-waving the density argument.
For an alternative direct proof, consider that translation along the $,x,$ axis preserves the nature of the roots (real vs. complex) of a real polynomial, so it can be assumed WLOG that $,a=0,$, then:
$$p(x)=a_nx^n+a_n-1x^n-1+ldots+a_3x^3+a_0 quadquad stylefont-family:inherittextwith ;;a_n ne 0;;stylefont-family:inherittextand;; p(0)=a_0 ne0$$
If the roots of $,p(x),$ are $,x_i ne 0,$ then the polynomial having as roots $,y_i=1 / x_i,$ is:
$$q(y)=y^npleft(frac1yright)=a_0y^n+a_3y^n-3+ldots+a_n-1y+a_n$$
By Vieta's relations $,sum_i y_i = 0,$ and $,sum_i lt j y_iy_j = 0,$, so $,sum_i y_i^2 = left(sum_i y_iright)^2-2sum_i lt j y_iy_j=0,$. If all $,y_i,$ were real, that would imply $,y_i=0,$, but $,a_n ne 0,$ so none of the roots can be $,0,$. It follows that not all $,y_i,$ can be real, and therefore not all of $,x_i,$ are real.
Honestly, I find the "original solution" to be quite hand-waving the density argument.
For an alternative direct proof, consider that translation along the $,x,$ axis preserves the nature of the roots (real vs. complex) of a real polynomial, so it can be assumed WLOG that $,a=0,$, then:
$$p(x)=a_nx^n+a_n-1x^n-1+ldots+a_3x^3+a_0 quadquad stylefont-family:inherittextwith ;;a_n ne 0;;stylefont-family:inherittextand;; p(0)=a_0 ne0$$
If the roots of $,p(x),$ are $,x_i ne 0,$ then the polynomial having as roots $,y_i=1 / x_i,$ is:
$$q(y)=y^npleft(frac1yright)=a_0y^n+a_3y^n-3+ldots+a_n-1y+a_n$$
By Vieta's relations $,sum_i y_i = 0,$ and $,sum_i lt j y_iy_j = 0,$, so $,sum_i y_i^2 = left(sum_i y_iright)^2-2sum_i lt j y_iy_j=0,$. If all $,y_i,$ were real, that would imply $,y_i=0,$, but $,a_n ne 0,$ so none of the roots can be $,0,$. It follows that not all $,y_i,$ can be real, and therefore not all of $,x_i,$ are real.
answered Aug 22 at 20:42
dxiv
55.5k64798
55.5k64798
1
I think this solution is much better than the original one to understand! Thank you very much.
â Seewoo Lee
Aug 23 at 1:48
add a comment |Â
1
I think this solution is much better than the original one to understand! Thank you very much.
â Seewoo Lee
Aug 23 at 1:48
1
1
I think this solution is much better than the original one to understand! Thank you very much.
â Seewoo Lee
Aug 23 at 1:48
I think this solution is much better than the original one to understand! Thank you very much.
â Seewoo Lee
Aug 23 at 1:48
add a comment |Â
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What was the solution?
â 4-ier
Aug 22 at 6:43
@4-ier I just added.
â Seewoo Lee
Aug 22 at 6:44
Thanks. What about it do you have trouble with?
â 4-ier
Aug 22 at 6:45
@4-ier I can't understand the solution at all, especially the second sentence.
â Seewoo Lee
Aug 22 at 6:48
Ok, thanks. Wanted to see where you were at.
â 4-ier
Aug 22 at 6:49