Problem about real coefficient polynomial

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Let $p(x)$ be a real coefficient polynomial. Assume that there exits $ain mathbbR$ s.t. $p(a)neq 0$ but $p'(a) = p''(a) = 0$. Show that $p(x)$ has at least one non-real root.




This is a problem from today's exam, and actually, I already have a solution. However, I can't understand the solution, so I tried to do it my self in the following direction:



Assume that $p(x)$ is a monic polynomial. We can just set $p(x) = (x-a)^3q(x) + B$ for some $Bneq 0$. If $p$ has only real roots, we have $p(x) = (x-alpha_1)cdots (x-alpha_n)$ for some $alpha_1leq cdots leq alpha_n$. Then we have $(x-a)^3q(x)+B = (x-alpha_1)cdots(x-alpha_n)$, and I can' proceed from here.




Here's the original solution:




Solution:
Observe that if $q(z)$ is a real-rooted polynomial with distinct roots, then by Rolle’s theorem $q'(z)$ is also real-rooted (since it has degree one less than the degree of $q$) and has the property that between every two roots of $q'$ there is a root of $q$.
Since polynomials with distinct roots are dense in the set of real-rooted polynomials, this implies that if $q$ is any real-rooted polynomial and $q'(z)$ has a double root at $z$ then $q(z) = 0$.



For the given polynomial $p'(z)$ has a double root at $a$, but $p(a) neq 0$, so $p$ cannot be real-rooted.



(Original image here.)








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  • What was the solution?
    – 4-ier
    Aug 22 at 6:43










  • @4-ier I just added.
    – Seewoo Lee
    Aug 22 at 6:44










  • Thanks. What about it do you have trouble with?
    – 4-ier
    Aug 22 at 6:45










  • @4-ier I can't understand the solution at all, especially the second sentence.
    – Seewoo Lee
    Aug 22 at 6:48










  • Ok, thanks. Wanted to see where you were at.
    – 4-ier
    Aug 22 at 6:49














up vote
2
down vote

favorite













Let $p(x)$ be a real coefficient polynomial. Assume that there exits $ain mathbbR$ s.t. $p(a)neq 0$ but $p'(a) = p''(a) = 0$. Show that $p(x)$ has at least one non-real root.




This is a problem from today's exam, and actually, I already have a solution. However, I can't understand the solution, so I tried to do it my self in the following direction:



Assume that $p(x)$ is a monic polynomial. We can just set $p(x) = (x-a)^3q(x) + B$ for some $Bneq 0$. If $p$ has only real roots, we have $p(x) = (x-alpha_1)cdots (x-alpha_n)$ for some $alpha_1leq cdots leq alpha_n$. Then we have $(x-a)^3q(x)+B = (x-alpha_1)cdots(x-alpha_n)$, and I can' proceed from here.




Here's the original solution:




Solution:
Observe that if $q(z)$ is a real-rooted polynomial with distinct roots, then by Rolle’s theorem $q'(z)$ is also real-rooted (since it has degree one less than the degree of $q$) and has the property that between every two roots of $q'$ there is a root of $q$.
Since polynomials with distinct roots are dense in the set of real-rooted polynomials, this implies that if $q$ is any real-rooted polynomial and $q'(z)$ has a double root at $z$ then $q(z) = 0$.



For the given polynomial $p'(z)$ has a double root at $a$, but $p(a) neq 0$, so $p$ cannot be real-rooted.



(Original image here.)








share|cite|improve this question






















  • What was the solution?
    – 4-ier
    Aug 22 at 6:43










  • @4-ier I just added.
    – Seewoo Lee
    Aug 22 at 6:44










  • Thanks. What about it do you have trouble with?
    – 4-ier
    Aug 22 at 6:45










  • @4-ier I can't understand the solution at all, especially the second sentence.
    – Seewoo Lee
    Aug 22 at 6:48










  • Ok, thanks. Wanted to see where you were at.
    – 4-ier
    Aug 22 at 6:49












up vote
2
down vote

favorite









up vote
2
down vote

favorite












Let $p(x)$ be a real coefficient polynomial. Assume that there exits $ain mathbbR$ s.t. $p(a)neq 0$ but $p'(a) = p''(a) = 0$. Show that $p(x)$ has at least one non-real root.




This is a problem from today's exam, and actually, I already have a solution. However, I can't understand the solution, so I tried to do it my self in the following direction:



Assume that $p(x)$ is a monic polynomial. We can just set $p(x) = (x-a)^3q(x) + B$ for some $Bneq 0$. If $p$ has only real roots, we have $p(x) = (x-alpha_1)cdots (x-alpha_n)$ for some $alpha_1leq cdots leq alpha_n$. Then we have $(x-a)^3q(x)+B = (x-alpha_1)cdots(x-alpha_n)$, and I can' proceed from here.




Here's the original solution:




Solution:
Observe that if $q(z)$ is a real-rooted polynomial with distinct roots, then by Rolle’s theorem $q'(z)$ is also real-rooted (since it has degree one less than the degree of $q$) and has the property that between every two roots of $q'$ there is a root of $q$.
Since polynomials with distinct roots are dense in the set of real-rooted polynomials, this implies that if $q$ is any real-rooted polynomial and $q'(z)$ has a double root at $z$ then $q(z) = 0$.



For the given polynomial $p'(z)$ has a double root at $a$, but $p(a) neq 0$, so $p$ cannot be real-rooted.



(Original image here.)








share|cite|improve this question















Let $p(x)$ be a real coefficient polynomial. Assume that there exits $ain mathbbR$ s.t. $p(a)neq 0$ but $p'(a) = p''(a) = 0$. Show that $p(x)$ has at least one non-real root.




This is a problem from today's exam, and actually, I already have a solution. However, I can't understand the solution, so I tried to do it my self in the following direction:



Assume that $p(x)$ is a monic polynomial. We can just set $p(x) = (x-a)^3q(x) + B$ for some $Bneq 0$. If $p$ has only real roots, we have $p(x) = (x-alpha_1)cdots (x-alpha_n)$ for some $alpha_1leq cdots leq alpha_n$. Then we have $(x-a)^3q(x)+B = (x-alpha_1)cdots(x-alpha_n)$, and I can' proceed from here.




Here's the original solution:




Solution:
Observe that if $q(z)$ is a real-rooted polynomial with distinct roots, then by Rolle’s theorem $q'(z)$ is also real-rooted (since it has degree one less than the degree of $q$) and has the property that between every two roots of $q'$ there is a root of $q$.
Since polynomials with distinct roots are dense in the set of real-rooted polynomials, this implies that if $q$ is any real-rooted polynomial and $q'(z)$ has a double root at $z$ then $q(z) = 0$.



For the given polynomial $p'(z)$ has a double root at $a$, but $p(a) neq 0$, so $p$ cannot be real-rooted.



(Original image here.)










share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




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edited Aug 23 at 11:02









Jendrik Stelzner

7,57221037




7,57221037










asked Aug 22 at 6:23









Seewoo Lee

4,910824




4,910824











  • What was the solution?
    – 4-ier
    Aug 22 at 6:43










  • @4-ier I just added.
    – Seewoo Lee
    Aug 22 at 6:44










  • Thanks. What about it do you have trouble with?
    – 4-ier
    Aug 22 at 6:45










  • @4-ier I can't understand the solution at all, especially the second sentence.
    – Seewoo Lee
    Aug 22 at 6:48










  • Ok, thanks. Wanted to see where you were at.
    – 4-ier
    Aug 22 at 6:49
















  • What was the solution?
    – 4-ier
    Aug 22 at 6:43










  • @4-ier I just added.
    – Seewoo Lee
    Aug 22 at 6:44










  • Thanks. What about it do you have trouble with?
    – 4-ier
    Aug 22 at 6:45










  • @4-ier I can't understand the solution at all, especially the second sentence.
    – Seewoo Lee
    Aug 22 at 6:48










  • Ok, thanks. Wanted to see where you were at.
    – 4-ier
    Aug 22 at 6:49















What was the solution?
– 4-ier
Aug 22 at 6:43




What was the solution?
– 4-ier
Aug 22 at 6:43












@4-ier I just added.
– Seewoo Lee
Aug 22 at 6:44




@4-ier I just added.
– Seewoo Lee
Aug 22 at 6:44












Thanks. What about it do you have trouble with?
– 4-ier
Aug 22 at 6:45




Thanks. What about it do you have trouble with?
– 4-ier
Aug 22 at 6:45












@4-ier I can't understand the solution at all, especially the second sentence.
– Seewoo Lee
Aug 22 at 6:48




@4-ier I can't understand the solution at all, especially the second sentence.
– Seewoo Lee
Aug 22 at 6:48












Ok, thanks. Wanted to see where you were at.
– 4-ier
Aug 22 at 6:49




Ok, thanks. Wanted to see where you were at.
– 4-ier
Aug 22 at 6:49










1 Answer
1






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oldest

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up vote
1
down vote



accepted










Honestly, I find the "original solution" to be quite hand-waving the density argument.



For an alternative direct proof, consider that translation along the $,x,$ axis preserves the nature of the roots (real vs. complex) of a real polynomial, so it can be assumed WLOG that $,a=0,$, then:



$$p(x)=a_nx^n+a_n-1x^n-1+ldots+a_3x^3+a_0 quadquad stylefont-family:inherittextwith ;;a_n ne 0;;stylefont-family:inherittextand;; p(0)=a_0 ne0$$



If the roots of $,p(x),$ are $,x_i ne 0,$ then the polynomial having as roots $,y_i=1 / x_i,$ is:



$$q(y)=y^npleft(frac1yright)=a_0y^n+a_3y^n-3+ldots+a_n-1y+a_n$$



By Vieta's relations $,sum_i y_i = 0,$ and $,sum_i lt j y_iy_j = 0,$, so $,sum_i y_i^2 = left(sum_i y_iright)^2-2sum_i lt j y_iy_j=0,$. If all $,y_i,$ were real, that would imply $,y_i=0,$, but $,a_n ne 0,$ so none of the roots can be $,0,$. It follows that not all $,y_i,$ can be real, and therefore not all of $,x_i,$ are real.






share|cite|improve this answer
















  • 1




    I think this solution is much better than the original one to understand! Thank you very much.
    – Seewoo Lee
    Aug 23 at 1:48










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1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes








1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes








up vote
1
down vote



accepted










Honestly, I find the "original solution" to be quite hand-waving the density argument.



For an alternative direct proof, consider that translation along the $,x,$ axis preserves the nature of the roots (real vs. complex) of a real polynomial, so it can be assumed WLOG that $,a=0,$, then:



$$p(x)=a_nx^n+a_n-1x^n-1+ldots+a_3x^3+a_0 quadquad stylefont-family:inherittextwith ;;a_n ne 0;;stylefont-family:inherittextand;; p(0)=a_0 ne0$$



If the roots of $,p(x),$ are $,x_i ne 0,$ then the polynomial having as roots $,y_i=1 / x_i,$ is:



$$q(y)=y^npleft(frac1yright)=a_0y^n+a_3y^n-3+ldots+a_n-1y+a_n$$



By Vieta's relations $,sum_i y_i = 0,$ and $,sum_i lt j y_iy_j = 0,$, so $,sum_i y_i^2 = left(sum_i y_iright)^2-2sum_i lt j y_iy_j=0,$. If all $,y_i,$ were real, that would imply $,y_i=0,$, but $,a_n ne 0,$ so none of the roots can be $,0,$. It follows that not all $,y_i,$ can be real, and therefore not all of $,x_i,$ are real.






share|cite|improve this answer
















  • 1




    I think this solution is much better than the original one to understand! Thank you very much.
    – Seewoo Lee
    Aug 23 at 1:48














up vote
1
down vote



accepted










Honestly, I find the "original solution" to be quite hand-waving the density argument.



For an alternative direct proof, consider that translation along the $,x,$ axis preserves the nature of the roots (real vs. complex) of a real polynomial, so it can be assumed WLOG that $,a=0,$, then:



$$p(x)=a_nx^n+a_n-1x^n-1+ldots+a_3x^3+a_0 quadquad stylefont-family:inherittextwith ;;a_n ne 0;;stylefont-family:inherittextand;; p(0)=a_0 ne0$$



If the roots of $,p(x),$ are $,x_i ne 0,$ then the polynomial having as roots $,y_i=1 / x_i,$ is:



$$q(y)=y^npleft(frac1yright)=a_0y^n+a_3y^n-3+ldots+a_n-1y+a_n$$



By Vieta's relations $,sum_i y_i = 0,$ and $,sum_i lt j y_iy_j = 0,$, so $,sum_i y_i^2 = left(sum_i y_iright)^2-2sum_i lt j y_iy_j=0,$. If all $,y_i,$ were real, that would imply $,y_i=0,$, but $,a_n ne 0,$ so none of the roots can be $,0,$. It follows that not all $,y_i,$ can be real, and therefore not all of $,x_i,$ are real.






share|cite|improve this answer
















  • 1




    I think this solution is much better than the original one to understand! Thank you very much.
    – Seewoo Lee
    Aug 23 at 1:48












up vote
1
down vote



accepted







up vote
1
down vote



accepted






Honestly, I find the "original solution" to be quite hand-waving the density argument.



For an alternative direct proof, consider that translation along the $,x,$ axis preserves the nature of the roots (real vs. complex) of a real polynomial, so it can be assumed WLOG that $,a=0,$, then:



$$p(x)=a_nx^n+a_n-1x^n-1+ldots+a_3x^3+a_0 quadquad stylefont-family:inherittextwith ;;a_n ne 0;;stylefont-family:inherittextand;; p(0)=a_0 ne0$$



If the roots of $,p(x),$ are $,x_i ne 0,$ then the polynomial having as roots $,y_i=1 / x_i,$ is:



$$q(y)=y^npleft(frac1yright)=a_0y^n+a_3y^n-3+ldots+a_n-1y+a_n$$



By Vieta's relations $,sum_i y_i = 0,$ and $,sum_i lt j y_iy_j = 0,$, so $,sum_i y_i^2 = left(sum_i y_iright)^2-2sum_i lt j y_iy_j=0,$. If all $,y_i,$ were real, that would imply $,y_i=0,$, but $,a_n ne 0,$ so none of the roots can be $,0,$. It follows that not all $,y_i,$ can be real, and therefore not all of $,x_i,$ are real.






share|cite|improve this answer












Honestly, I find the "original solution" to be quite hand-waving the density argument.



For an alternative direct proof, consider that translation along the $,x,$ axis preserves the nature of the roots (real vs. complex) of a real polynomial, so it can be assumed WLOG that $,a=0,$, then:



$$p(x)=a_nx^n+a_n-1x^n-1+ldots+a_3x^3+a_0 quadquad stylefont-family:inherittextwith ;;a_n ne 0;;stylefont-family:inherittextand;; p(0)=a_0 ne0$$



If the roots of $,p(x),$ are $,x_i ne 0,$ then the polynomial having as roots $,y_i=1 / x_i,$ is:



$$q(y)=y^npleft(frac1yright)=a_0y^n+a_3y^n-3+ldots+a_n-1y+a_n$$



By Vieta's relations $,sum_i y_i = 0,$ and $,sum_i lt j y_iy_j = 0,$, so $,sum_i y_i^2 = left(sum_i y_iright)^2-2sum_i lt j y_iy_j=0,$. If all $,y_i,$ were real, that would imply $,y_i=0,$, but $,a_n ne 0,$ so none of the roots can be $,0,$. It follows that not all $,y_i,$ can be real, and therefore not all of $,x_i,$ are real.







share|cite|improve this answer












share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer










answered Aug 22 at 20:42









dxiv

55.5k64798




55.5k64798







  • 1




    I think this solution is much better than the original one to understand! Thank you very much.
    – Seewoo Lee
    Aug 23 at 1:48












  • 1




    I think this solution is much better than the original one to understand! Thank you very much.
    – Seewoo Lee
    Aug 23 at 1:48







1




1




I think this solution is much better than the original one to understand! Thank you very much.
– Seewoo Lee
Aug 23 at 1:48




I think this solution is much better than the original one to understand! Thank you very much.
– Seewoo Lee
Aug 23 at 1:48












 

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