can one order the elements of a finite group such that their product is equal to the first element in the list?
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This question is inspired by this question.
Given a finite group $G$, is there an ordering $G=a_1, dots, a_n$ of its elements such that the product of all group elements in that specified order equals the first element, i.e $a_1cdotdotscdot a_n=a_1$. Equivalently, can we multiply all but one element of the group in such a way to obtain the unit $1$.
Trivial cases (probably not very helpful):
$G$ is abelian (just define $a_1$ to be the product of all elements).
$G$ has no element of order $2$ ($a_1=1$ and pair the elements with their inverses in the list).
$G$ has a unique element of order $2$ (set $a_1$ to be that element and pair the others with their inverses).
Slightly less trivial cases (still probably not that useful)
$G=S_3$ (symmetric group) if $a=(12), b=(23)$ are the standard generators, then $(aba)=(aba)(a)(ba)(b)(ab)1$
$G$ with $|G|>6$ has exactly two or three elements of order $2$: Consider the conjugation action of $G$ on the set $X$ of elements of order $2$. If this action is non-trivial, then for at least one $xin X$ the centralizer of $x$ has at most $frac2$ elements, hence we find a $gin Gsetminus X$ with $y:= gxg^-1neq x$; then the product $ygxg^-1$ followed by all the elements of order $geq3$ paired with their inverses is trivial. If the action is trivial, then $X$ lies in the center and is thus an abelian subgroup (because the product of commuting elements of order $2$ has order $leq 2$); hence we can first multiply all elements of $X$, followed by all other elements paired with their inverses.
group-theory finite-groups
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show 5 more comments
up vote
20
down vote
favorite
This question is inspired by this question.
Given a finite group $G$, is there an ordering $G=a_1, dots, a_n$ of its elements such that the product of all group elements in that specified order equals the first element, i.e $a_1cdotdotscdot a_n=a_1$. Equivalently, can we multiply all but one element of the group in such a way to obtain the unit $1$.
Trivial cases (probably not very helpful):
$G$ is abelian (just define $a_1$ to be the product of all elements).
$G$ has no element of order $2$ ($a_1=1$ and pair the elements with their inverses in the list).
$G$ has a unique element of order $2$ (set $a_1$ to be that element and pair the others with their inverses).
Slightly less trivial cases (still probably not that useful)
$G=S_3$ (symmetric group) if $a=(12), b=(23)$ are the standard generators, then $(aba)=(aba)(a)(ba)(b)(ab)1$
$G$ with $|G|>6$ has exactly two or three elements of order $2$: Consider the conjugation action of $G$ on the set $X$ of elements of order $2$. If this action is non-trivial, then for at least one $xin X$ the centralizer of $x$ has at most $frac2$ elements, hence we find a $gin Gsetminus X$ with $y:= gxg^-1neq x$; then the product $ygxg^-1$ followed by all the elements of order $geq3$ paired with their inverses is trivial. If the action is trivial, then $X$ lies in the center and is thus an abelian subgroup (because the product of commuting elements of order $2$ has order $leq 2$); hence we can first multiply all elements of $X$, followed by all other elements paired with their inverses.
group-theory finite-groups
3
If the group is commutative, you can pick $a_1=prod_gin G g$ (as the product does not depend on the order of multiplication). In the case where there is no element of order two, you can choose $a_1=e_G$ (the neutral element) and order the rest in such a way that you group $g$ and $g^-1$ next to each other. I have no idea how to do it in the general case.
â Severin Schraven
Jun 9 at 22:03
If $G$ is non-abelian, fixing an arbitrary $a_1 in G$ leaves you with $(n - 1)!$ different ways to choose the remaining terms. Some of the resulting products may repeat, but perhaps "enough" of them do not to sweep out the group itself.
â rwbogl
Jun 9 at 22:25
4
@rwbogl That might work for perfect groups. But the product of all elements of $G$ is well-defined up to $G'$, so if $G$ has a nontrivial abelianization $G/G'$, then there are elements that won't work as $a_1$.
â Ravi Fernando
Jun 9 at 23:49
Note this is equivalent to being able to find a product of all elements is the identity. If $a_1=a_2cdots a_n$ then $a_1^-1=a_n^-1cdots a_2^-1$ err nevermind it's all the elements not all but one
â N8tron
Jun 10 at 0:15
If there are 4 elements of order two, if two of them commute, then their product is another element of order two, and the product of the three elements is trivial.
â san
Aug 12 at 3:58
 |Â
show 5 more comments
up vote
20
down vote
favorite
up vote
20
down vote
favorite
This question is inspired by this question.
Given a finite group $G$, is there an ordering $G=a_1, dots, a_n$ of its elements such that the product of all group elements in that specified order equals the first element, i.e $a_1cdotdotscdot a_n=a_1$. Equivalently, can we multiply all but one element of the group in such a way to obtain the unit $1$.
Trivial cases (probably not very helpful):
$G$ is abelian (just define $a_1$ to be the product of all elements).
$G$ has no element of order $2$ ($a_1=1$ and pair the elements with their inverses in the list).
$G$ has a unique element of order $2$ (set $a_1$ to be that element and pair the others with their inverses).
Slightly less trivial cases (still probably not that useful)
$G=S_3$ (symmetric group) if $a=(12), b=(23)$ are the standard generators, then $(aba)=(aba)(a)(ba)(b)(ab)1$
$G$ with $|G|>6$ has exactly two or three elements of order $2$: Consider the conjugation action of $G$ on the set $X$ of elements of order $2$. If this action is non-trivial, then for at least one $xin X$ the centralizer of $x$ has at most $frac2$ elements, hence we find a $gin Gsetminus X$ with $y:= gxg^-1neq x$; then the product $ygxg^-1$ followed by all the elements of order $geq3$ paired with their inverses is trivial. If the action is trivial, then $X$ lies in the center and is thus an abelian subgroup (because the product of commuting elements of order $2$ has order $leq 2$); hence we can first multiply all elements of $X$, followed by all other elements paired with their inverses.
group-theory finite-groups
This question is inspired by this question.
Given a finite group $G$, is there an ordering $G=a_1, dots, a_n$ of its elements such that the product of all group elements in that specified order equals the first element, i.e $a_1cdotdotscdot a_n=a_1$. Equivalently, can we multiply all but one element of the group in such a way to obtain the unit $1$.
Trivial cases (probably not very helpful):
$G$ is abelian (just define $a_1$ to be the product of all elements).
$G$ has no element of order $2$ ($a_1=1$ and pair the elements with their inverses in the list).
$G$ has a unique element of order $2$ (set $a_1$ to be that element and pair the others with their inverses).
Slightly less trivial cases (still probably not that useful)
$G=S_3$ (symmetric group) if $a=(12), b=(23)$ are the standard generators, then $(aba)=(aba)(a)(ba)(b)(ab)1$
$G$ with $|G|>6$ has exactly two or three elements of order $2$: Consider the conjugation action of $G$ on the set $X$ of elements of order $2$. If this action is non-trivial, then for at least one $xin X$ the centralizer of $x$ has at most $frac2$ elements, hence we find a $gin Gsetminus X$ with $y:= gxg^-1neq x$; then the product $ygxg^-1$ followed by all the elements of order $geq3$ paired with their inverses is trivial. If the action is trivial, then $X$ lies in the center and is thus an abelian subgroup (because the product of commuting elements of order $2$ has order $leq 2$); hence we can first multiply all elements of $X$, followed by all other elements paired with their inverses.
group-theory finite-groups
edited Jun 13 at 16:23
asked Jun 9 at 21:35
Tashi Walde
1,20910
1,20910
3
If the group is commutative, you can pick $a_1=prod_gin G g$ (as the product does not depend on the order of multiplication). In the case where there is no element of order two, you can choose $a_1=e_G$ (the neutral element) and order the rest in such a way that you group $g$ and $g^-1$ next to each other. I have no idea how to do it in the general case.
â Severin Schraven
Jun 9 at 22:03
If $G$ is non-abelian, fixing an arbitrary $a_1 in G$ leaves you with $(n - 1)!$ different ways to choose the remaining terms. Some of the resulting products may repeat, but perhaps "enough" of them do not to sweep out the group itself.
â rwbogl
Jun 9 at 22:25
4
@rwbogl That might work for perfect groups. But the product of all elements of $G$ is well-defined up to $G'$, so if $G$ has a nontrivial abelianization $G/G'$, then there are elements that won't work as $a_1$.
â Ravi Fernando
Jun 9 at 23:49
Note this is equivalent to being able to find a product of all elements is the identity. If $a_1=a_2cdots a_n$ then $a_1^-1=a_n^-1cdots a_2^-1$ err nevermind it's all the elements not all but one
â N8tron
Jun 10 at 0:15
If there are 4 elements of order two, if two of them commute, then their product is another element of order two, and the product of the three elements is trivial.
â san
Aug 12 at 3:58
 |Â
show 5 more comments
3
If the group is commutative, you can pick $a_1=prod_gin G g$ (as the product does not depend on the order of multiplication). In the case where there is no element of order two, you can choose $a_1=e_G$ (the neutral element) and order the rest in such a way that you group $g$ and $g^-1$ next to each other. I have no idea how to do it in the general case.
â Severin Schraven
Jun 9 at 22:03
If $G$ is non-abelian, fixing an arbitrary $a_1 in G$ leaves you with $(n - 1)!$ different ways to choose the remaining terms. Some of the resulting products may repeat, but perhaps "enough" of them do not to sweep out the group itself.
â rwbogl
Jun 9 at 22:25
4
@rwbogl That might work for perfect groups. But the product of all elements of $G$ is well-defined up to $G'$, so if $G$ has a nontrivial abelianization $G/G'$, then there are elements that won't work as $a_1$.
â Ravi Fernando
Jun 9 at 23:49
Note this is equivalent to being able to find a product of all elements is the identity. If $a_1=a_2cdots a_n$ then $a_1^-1=a_n^-1cdots a_2^-1$ err nevermind it's all the elements not all but one
â N8tron
Jun 10 at 0:15
If there are 4 elements of order two, if two of them commute, then their product is another element of order two, and the product of the three elements is trivial.
â san
Aug 12 at 3:58
3
3
If the group is commutative, you can pick $a_1=prod_gin G g$ (as the product does not depend on the order of multiplication). In the case where there is no element of order two, you can choose $a_1=e_G$ (the neutral element) and order the rest in such a way that you group $g$ and $g^-1$ next to each other. I have no idea how to do it in the general case.
â Severin Schraven
Jun 9 at 22:03
If the group is commutative, you can pick $a_1=prod_gin G g$ (as the product does not depend on the order of multiplication). In the case where there is no element of order two, you can choose $a_1=e_G$ (the neutral element) and order the rest in such a way that you group $g$ and $g^-1$ next to each other. I have no idea how to do it in the general case.
â Severin Schraven
Jun 9 at 22:03
If $G$ is non-abelian, fixing an arbitrary $a_1 in G$ leaves you with $(n - 1)!$ different ways to choose the remaining terms. Some of the resulting products may repeat, but perhaps "enough" of them do not to sweep out the group itself.
â rwbogl
Jun 9 at 22:25
If $G$ is non-abelian, fixing an arbitrary $a_1 in G$ leaves you with $(n - 1)!$ different ways to choose the remaining terms. Some of the resulting products may repeat, but perhaps "enough" of them do not to sweep out the group itself.
â rwbogl
Jun 9 at 22:25
4
4
@rwbogl That might work for perfect groups. But the product of all elements of $G$ is well-defined up to $G'$, so if $G$ has a nontrivial abelianization $G/G'$, then there are elements that won't work as $a_1$.
â Ravi Fernando
Jun 9 at 23:49
@rwbogl That might work for perfect groups. But the product of all elements of $G$ is well-defined up to $G'$, so if $G$ has a nontrivial abelianization $G/G'$, then there are elements that won't work as $a_1$.
â Ravi Fernando
Jun 9 at 23:49
Note this is equivalent to being able to find a product of all elements is the identity. If $a_1=a_2cdots a_n$ then $a_1^-1=a_n^-1cdots a_2^-1$ err nevermind it's all the elements not all but one
â N8tron
Jun 10 at 0:15
Note this is equivalent to being able to find a product of all elements is the identity. If $a_1=a_2cdots a_n$ then $a_1^-1=a_n^-1cdots a_2^-1$ err nevermind it's all the elements not all but one
â N8tron
Jun 10 at 0:15
If there are 4 elements of order two, if two of them commute, then their product is another element of order two, and the product of the three elements is trivial.
â san
Aug 12 at 3:58
If there are 4 elements of order two, if two of them commute, then their product is another element of order two, and the product of the three elements is trivial.
â san
Aug 12 at 3:58
 |Â
show 5 more comments
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
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up vote
4
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We will prove a bit stronger result: Given an element $x_0$ of order two, we can order the elements in the group such that one of the following cases occur:
The product is trivial, and you can set $a_1=1$.
The product is equal to $x_0$ and the first element is $x_0$.
Proof: Let $X$ be the set of elements of order two and set $$X_0= xin Xsetminus x_0: xx_0=x_0x$$ and $$X_1= xin X: xx_0ne x_0x.$$
Then we have the disjoint union
$$ X=x_0cup X_0cup X_1$$
Consider the orbits $x,x_0x$ in $X_0$ corresponding to (left) multiplication by $x_0$, and the orbits $x, x_0 x x_0$ in $X_1$ corresponding to the adjunction with $x_0$.
Clearly all orbits have cardinality two.
For each pair of orbits $x,x_0 x, y, x_0 y$ in $X_0$ consider the product
$$ xcdot (x_0 x)cdot y cdot (x_0 y)= x_0 cdot x_0=1,$$
and for each orbit $ x, x_0 x x_0$ in $X_1$ set $g= x_0 x$ (so $g^-1=x x_0=x_0(x_0 x x_0)$) and consider the product
$$ g cdot x cdot g^-1cdot (x_0 x x_0)= x_0 cdot x_0=1.$$
Note that the sets $ g, g^-1$ are disjoint, since the orbits are disjoint.
So, if there is an odd number of orbits in $X_0$, set $a_1=1$, then take one orbit $ x,x_0 x$ in $X_0$, and consider the product $$ x_0 cdot x cdot (x_0 x)=1.$$
Then form the product of all elements in $G$ multiplying by the products corresponding to pairs of orbits in $X_0$, then by the products corresponding to orbits in $X_1$, and finally multiplying by pairs $ g, g^-1$ of elements in $Gsetminus X$ that have not been used in any of the previous products. Then the product of all elements is trivial.
If there is an even number of orbits in $X_0$, then set $a_1=x_0$ and multiply as before by the remaining elements. Then the product of all the elements is $x_0$, which is the first element.
add a comment |Â
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
4
down vote
We will prove a bit stronger result: Given an element $x_0$ of order two, we can order the elements in the group such that one of the following cases occur:
The product is trivial, and you can set $a_1=1$.
The product is equal to $x_0$ and the first element is $x_0$.
Proof: Let $X$ be the set of elements of order two and set $$X_0= xin Xsetminus x_0: xx_0=x_0x$$ and $$X_1= xin X: xx_0ne x_0x.$$
Then we have the disjoint union
$$ X=x_0cup X_0cup X_1$$
Consider the orbits $x,x_0x$ in $X_0$ corresponding to (left) multiplication by $x_0$, and the orbits $x, x_0 x x_0$ in $X_1$ corresponding to the adjunction with $x_0$.
Clearly all orbits have cardinality two.
For each pair of orbits $x,x_0 x, y, x_0 y$ in $X_0$ consider the product
$$ xcdot (x_0 x)cdot y cdot (x_0 y)= x_0 cdot x_0=1,$$
and for each orbit $ x, x_0 x x_0$ in $X_1$ set $g= x_0 x$ (so $g^-1=x x_0=x_0(x_0 x x_0)$) and consider the product
$$ g cdot x cdot g^-1cdot (x_0 x x_0)= x_0 cdot x_0=1.$$
Note that the sets $ g, g^-1$ are disjoint, since the orbits are disjoint.
So, if there is an odd number of orbits in $X_0$, set $a_1=1$, then take one orbit $ x,x_0 x$ in $X_0$, and consider the product $$ x_0 cdot x cdot (x_0 x)=1.$$
Then form the product of all elements in $G$ multiplying by the products corresponding to pairs of orbits in $X_0$, then by the products corresponding to orbits in $X_1$, and finally multiplying by pairs $ g, g^-1$ of elements in $Gsetminus X$ that have not been used in any of the previous products. Then the product of all elements is trivial.
If there is an even number of orbits in $X_0$, then set $a_1=x_0$ and multiply as before by the remaining elements. Then the product of all the elements is $x_0$, which is the first element.
add a comment |Â
up vote
4
down vote
We will prove a bit stronger result: Given an element $x_0$ of order two, we can order the elements in the group such that one of the following cases occur:
The product is trivial, and you can set $a_1=1$.
The product is equal to $x_0$ and the first element is $x_0$.
Proof: Let $X$ be the set of elements of order two and set $$X_0= xin Xsetminus x_0: xx_0=x_0x$$ and $$X_1= xin X: xx_0ne x_0x.$$
Then we have the disjoint union
$$ X=x_0cup X_0cup X_1$$
Consider the orbits $x,x_0x$ in $X_0$ corresponding to (left) multiplication by $x_0$, and the orbits $x, x_0 x x_0$ in $X_1$ corresponding to the adjunction with $x_0$.
Clearly all orbits have cardinality two.
For each pair of orbits $x,x_0 x, y, x_0 y$ in $X_0$ consider the product
$$ xcdot (x_0 x)cdot y cdot (x_0 y)= x_0 cdot x_0=1,$$
and for each orbit $ x, x_0 x x_0$ in $X_1$ set $g= x_0 x$ (so $g^-1=x x_0=x_0(x_0 x x_0)$) and consider the product
$$ g cdot x cdot g^-1cdot (x_0 x x_0)= x_0 cdot x_0=1.$$
Note that the sets $ g, g^-1$ are disjoint, since the orbits are disjoint.
So, if there is an odd number of orbits in $X_0$, set $a_1=1$, then take one orbit $ x,x_0 x$ in $X_0$, and consider the product $$ x_0 cdot x cdot (x_0 x)=1.$$
Then form the product of all elements in $G$ multiplying by the products corresponding to pairs of orbits in $X_0$, then by the products corresponding to orbits in $X_1$, and finally multiplying by pairs $ g, g^-1$ of elements in $Gsetminus X$ that have not been used in any of the previous products. Then the product of all elements is trivial.
If there is an even number of orbits in $X_0$, then set $a_1=x_0$ and multiply as before by the remaining elements. Then the product of all the elements is $x_0$, which is the first element.
add a comment |Â
up vote
4
down vote
up vote
4
down vote
We will prove a bit stronger result: Given an element $x_0$ of order two, we can order the elements in the group such that one of the following cases occur:
The product is trivial, and you can set $a_1=1$.
The product is equal to $x_0$ and the first element is $x_0$.
Proof: Let $X$ be the set of elements of order two and set $$X_0= xin Xsetminus x_0: xx_0=x_0x$$ and $$X_1= xin X: xx_0ne x_0x.$$
Then we have the disjoint union
$$ X=x_0cup X_0cup X_1$$
Consider the orbits $x,x_0x$ in $X_0$ corresponding to (left) multiplication by $x_0$, and the orbits $x, x_0 x x_0$ in $X_1$ corresponding to the adjunction with $x_0$.
Clearly all orbits have cardinality two.
For each pair of orbits $x,x_0 x, y, x_0 y$ in $X_0$ consider the product
$$ xcdot (x_0 x)cdot y cdot (x_0 y)= x_0 cdot x_0=1,$$
and for each orbit $ x, x_0 x x_0$ in $X_1$ set $g= x_0 x$ (so $g^-1=x x_0=x_0(x_0 x x_0)$) and consider the product
$$ g cdot x cdot g^-1cdot (x_0 x x_0)= x_0 cdot x_0=1.$$
Note that the sets $ g, g^-1$ are disjoint, since the orbits are disjoint.
So, if there is an odd number of orbits in $X_0$, set $a_1=1$, then take one orbit $ x,x_0 x$ in $X_0$, and consider the product $$ x_0 cdot x cdot (x_0 x)=1.$$
Then form the product of all elements in $G$ multiplying by the products corresponding to pairs of orbits in $X_0$, then by the products corresponding to orbits in $X_1$, and finally multiplying by pairs $ g, g^-1$ of elements in $Gsetminus X$ that have not been used in any of the previous products. Then the product of all elements is trivial.
If there is an even number of orbits in $X_0$, then set $a_1=x_0$ and multiply as before by the remaining elements. Then the product of all the elements is $x_0$, which is the first element.
We will prove a bit stronger result: Given an element $x_0$ of order two, we can order the elements in the group such that one of the following cases occur:
The product is trivial, and you can set $a_1=1$.
The product is equal to $x_0$ and the first element is $x_0$.
Proof: Let $X$ be the set of elements of order two and set $$X_0= xin Xsetminus x_0: xx_0=x_0x$$ and $$X_1= xin X: xx_0ne x_0x.$$
Then we have the disjoint union
$$ X=x_0cup X_0cup X_1$$
Consider the orbits $x,x_0x$ in $X_0$ corresponding to (left) multiplication by $x_0$, and the orbits $x, x_0 x x_0$ in $X_1$ corresponding to the adjunction with $x_0$.
Clearly all orbits have cardinality two.
For each pair of orbits $x,x_0 x, y, x_0 y$ in $X_0$ consider the product
$$ xcdot (x_0 x)cdot y cdot (x_0 y)= x_0 cdot x_0=1,$$
and for each orbit $ x, x_0 x x_0$ in $X_1$ set $g= x_0 x$ (so $g^-1=x x_0=x_0(x_0 x x_0)$) and consider the product
$$ g cdot x cdot g^-1cdot (x_0 x x_0)= x_0 cdot x_0=1.$$
Note that the sets $ g, g^-1$ are disjoint, since the orbits are disjoint.
So, if there is an odd number of orbits in $X_0$, set $a_1=1$, then take one orbit $ x,x_0 x$ in $X_0$, and consider the product $$ x_0 cdot x cdot (x_0 x)=1.$$
Then form the product of all elements in $G$ multiplying by the products corresponding to pairs of orbits in $X_0$, then by the products corresponding to orbits in $X_1$, and finally multiplying by pairs $ g, g^-1$ of elements in $Gsetminus X$ that have not been used in any of the previous products. Then the product of all elements is trivial.
If there is an even number of orbits in $X_0$, then set $a_1=x_0$ and multiply as before by the remaining elements. Then the product of all the elements is $x_0$, which is the first element.
edited Aug 12 at 18:23
answered Aug 12 at 18:15
san
12k11132
12k11132
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3
If the group is commutative, you can pick $a_1=prod_gin G g$ (as the product does not depend on the order of multiplication). In the case where there is no element of order two, you can choose $a_1=e_G$ (the neutral element) and order the rest in such a way that you group $g$ and $g^-1$ next to each other. I have no idea how to do it in the general case.
â Severin Schraven
Jun 9 at 22:03
If $G$ is non-abelian, fixing an arbitrary $a_1 in G$ leaves you with $(n - 1)!$ different ways to choose the remaining terms. Some of the resulting products may repeat, but perhaps "enough" of them do not to sweep out the group itself.
â rwbogl
Jun 9 at 22:25
4
@rwbogl That might work for perfect groups. But the product of all elements of $G$ is well-defined up to $G'$, so if $G$ has a nontrivial abelianization $G/G'$, then there are elements that won't work as $a_1$.
â Ravi Fernando
Jun 9 at 23:49
Note this is equivalent to being able to find a product of all elements is the identity. If $a_1=a_2cdots a_n$ then $a_1^-1=a_n^-1cdots a_2^-1$ err nevermind it's all the elements not all but one
â N8tron
Jun 10 at 0:15
If there are 4 elements of order two, if two of them commute, then their product is another element of order two, and the product of the three elements is trivial.
â san
Aug 12 at 3:58