can one order the elements of a finite group such that their product is equal to the first element in the list?

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Given a finite group $G$, is there an ordering $G=a_1, dots, a_n$ of its elements such that the product of all group elements in that specified order equals the first element, i.e $a_1cdotdotscdot a_n=a_1$. Equivalently, can we multiply all but one element of the group in such a way to obtain the unit $1$.



Trivial cases (probably not very helpful):



  • $G$ is abelian (just define $a_1$ to be the product of all elements).


  • $G$ has no element of order $2$ ($a_1=1$ and pair the elements with their inverses in the list).


  • $G$ has a unique element of order $2$ (set $a_1$ to be that element and pair the others with their inverses).


Slightly less trivial cases (still probably not that useful)



  • $G=S_3$ (symmetric group) if $a=(12), b=(23)$ are the standard generators, then $(aba)=(aba)(a)(ba)(b)(ab)1$


  • $G$ with $|G|>6$ has exactly two or three elements of order $2$: Consider the conjugation action of $G$ on the set $X$ of elements of order $2$. If this action is non-trivial, then for at least one $xin X$ the centralizer of $x$ has at most $frac2$ elements, hence we find a $gin Gsetminus X$ with $y:= gxg^-1neq x$; then the product $ygxg^-1$ followed by all the elements of order $geq3$ paired with their inverses is trivial. If the action is trivial, then $X$ lies in the center and is thus an abelian subgroup (because the product of commuting elements of order $2$ has order $leq 2$); hence we can first multiply all elements of $X$, followed by all other elements paired with their inverses.







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  • 3




    If the group is commutative, you can pick $a_1=prod_gin G g$ (as the product does not depend on the order of multiplication). In the case where there is no element of order two, you can choose $a_1=e_G$ (the neutral element) and order the rest in such a way that you group $g$ and $g^-1$ next to each other. I have no idea how to do it in the general case.
    – Severin Schraven
    Jun 9 at 22:03










  • If $G$ is non-abelian, fixing an arbitrary $a_1 in G$ leaves you with $(n - 1)!$ different ways to choose the remaining terms. Some of the resulting products may repeat, but perhaps "enough" of them do not to sweep out the group itself.
    – rwbogl
    Jun 9 at 22:25






  • 4




    @rwbogl That might work for perfect groups. But the product of all elements of $G$ is well-defined up to $G'$, so if $G$ has a nontrivial abelianization $G/G'$, then there are elements that won't work as $a_1$.
    – Ravi Fernando
    Jun 9 at 23:49










  • Note this is equivalent to being able to find a product of all elements is the identity. If $a_1=a_2cdots a_n$ then $a_1^-1=a_n^-1cdots a_2^-1$ err nevermind it's all the elements not all but one
    – N8tron
    Jun 10 at 0:15











  • If there are 4 elements of order two, if two of them commute, then their product is another element of order two, and the product of the three elements is trivial.
    – san
    Aug 12 at 3:58














up vote
20
down vote

favorite
6












This question is inspired by this question.



Given a finite group $G$, is there an ordering $G=a_1, dots, a_n$ of its elements such that the product of all group elements in that specified order equals the first element, i.e $a_1cdotdotscdot a_n=a_1$. Equivalently, can we multiply all but one element of the group in such a way to obtain the unit $1$.



Trivial cases (probably not very helpful):



  • $G$ is abelian (just define $a_1$ to be the product of all elements).


  • $G$ has no element of order $2$ ($a_1=1$ and pair the elements with their inverses in the list).


  • $G$ has a unique element of order $2$ (set $a_1$ to be that element and pair the others with their inverses).


Slightly less trivial cases (still probably not that useful)



  • $G=S_3$ (symmetric group) if $a=(12), b=(23)$ are the standard generators, then $(aba)=(aba)(a)(ba)(b)(ab)1$


  • $G$ with $|G|>6$ has exactly two or three elements of order $2$: Consider the conjugation action of $G$ on the set $X$ of elements of order $2$. If this action is non-trivial, then for at least one $xin X$ the centralizer of $x$ has at most $frac2$ elements, hence we find a $gin Gsetminus X$ with $y:= gxg^-1neq x$; then the product $ygxg^-1$ followed by all the elements of order $geq3$ paired with their inverses is trivial. If the action is trivial, then $X$ lies in the center and is thus an abelian subgroup (because the product of commuting elements of order $2$ has order $leq 2$); hence we can first multiply all elements of $X$, followed by all other elements paired with their inverses.







share|cite|improve this question

















  • 3




    If the group is commutative, you can pick $a_1=prod_gin G g$ (as the product does not depend on the order of multiplication). In the case where there is no element of order two, you can choose $a_1=e_G$ (the neutral element) and order the rest in such a way that you group $g$ and $g^-1$ next to each other. I have no idea how to do it in the general case.
    – Severin Schraven
    Jun 9 at 22:03










  • If $G$ is non-abelian, fixing an arbitrary $a_1 in G$ leaves you with $(n - 1)!$ different ways to choose the remaining terms. Some of the resulting products may repeat, but perhaps "enough" of them do not to sweep out the group itself.
    – rwbogl
    Jun 9 at 22:25






  • 4




    @rwbogl That might work for perfect groups. But the product of all elements of $G$ is well-defined up to $G'$, so if $G$ has a nontrivial abelianization $G/G'$, then there are elements that won't work as $a_1$.
    – Ravi Fernando
    Jun 9 at 23:49










  • Note this is equivalent to being able to find a product of all elements is the identity. If $a_1=a_2cdots a_n$ then $a_1^-1=a_n^-1cdots a_2^-1$ err nevermind it's all the elements not all but one
    – N8tron
    Jun 10 at 0:15











  • If there are 4 elements of order two, if two of them commute, then their product is another element of order two, and the product of the three elements is trivial.
    – san
    Aug 12 at 3:58












up vote
20
down vote

favorite
6









up vote
20
down vote

favorite
6






6





This question is inspired by this question.



Given a finite group $G$, is there an ordering $G=a_1, dots, a_n$ of its elements such that the product of all group elements in that specified order equals the first element, i.e $a_1cdotdotscdot a_n=a_1$. Equivalently, can we multiply all but one element of the group in such a way to obtain the unit $1$.



Trivial cases (probably not very helpful):



  • $G$ is abelian (just define $a_1$ to be the product of all elements).


  • $G$ has no element of order $2$ ($a_1=1$ and pair the elements with their inverses in the list).


  • $G$ has a unique element of order $2$ (set $a_1$ to be that element and pair the others with their inverses).


Slightly less trivial cases (still probably not that useful)



  • $G=S_3$ (symmetric group) if $a=(12), b=(23)$ are the standard generators, then $(aba)=(aba)(a)(ba)(b)(ab)1$


  • $G$ with $|G|>6$ has exactly two or three elements of order $2$: Consider the conjugation action of $G$ on the set $X$ of elements of order $2$. If this action is non-trivial, then for at least one $xin X$ the centralizer of $x$ has at most $frac2$ elements, hence we find a $gin Gsetminus X$ with $y:= gxg^-1neq x$; then the product $ygxg^-1$ followed by all the elements of order $geq3$ paired with their inverses is trivial. If the action is trivial, then $X$ lies in the center and is thus an abelian subgroup (because the product of commuting elements of order $2$ has order $leq 2$); hence we can first multiply all elements of $X$, followed by all other elements paired with their inverses.







share|cite|improve this question













This question is inspired by this question.



Given a finite group $G$, is there an ordering $G=a_1, dots, a_n$ of its elements such that the product of all group elements in that specified order equals the first element, i.e $a_1cdotdotscdot a_n=a_1$. Equivalently, can we multiply all but one element of the group in such a way to obtain the unit $1$.



Trivial cases (probably not very helpful):



  • $G$ is abelian (just define $a_1$ to be the product of all elements).


  • $G$ has no element of order $2$ ($a_1=1$ and pair the elements with their inverses in the list).


  • $G$ has a unique element of order $2$ (set $a_1$ to be that element and pair the others with their inverses).


Slightly less trivial cases (still probably not that useful)



  • $G=S_3$ (symmetric group) if $a=(12), b=(23)$ are the standard generators, then $(aba)=(aba)(a)(ba)(b)(ab)1$


  • $G$ with $|G|>6$ has exactly two or three elements of order $2$: Consider the conjugation action of $G$ on the set $X$ of elements of order $2$. If this action is non-trivial, then for at least one $xin X$ the centralizer of $x$ has at most $frac2$ elements, hence we find a $gin Gsetminus X$ with $y:= gxg^-1neq x$; then the product $ygxg^-1$ followed by all the elements of order $geq3$ paired with their inverses is trivial. If the action is trivial, then $X$ lies in the center and is thus an abelian subgroup (because the product of commuting elements of order $2$ has order $leq 2$); hence we can first multiply all elements of $X$, followed by all other elements paired with their inverses.









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edited Jun 13 at 16:23
























asked Jun 9 at 21:35









Tashi Walde

1,20910




1,20910







  • 3




    If the group is commutative, you can pick $a_1=prod_gin G g$ (as the product does not depend on the order of multiplication). In the case where there is no element of order two, you can choose $a_1=e_G$ (the neutral element) and order the rest in such a way that you group $g$ and $g^-1$ next to each other. I have no idea how to do it in the general case.
    – Severin Schraven
    Jun 9 at 22:03










  • If $G$ is non-abelian, fixing an arbitrary $a_1 in G$ leaves you with $(n - 1)!$ different ways to choose the remaining terms. Some of the resulting products may repeat, but perhaps "enough" of them do not to sweep out the group itself.
    – rwbogl
    Jun 9 at 22:25






  • 4




    @rwbogl That might work for perfect groups. But the product of all elements of $G$ is well-defined up to $G'$, so if $G$ has a nontrivial abelianization $G/G'$, then there are elements that won't work as $a_1$.
    – Ravi Fernando
    Jun 9 at 23:49










  • Note this is equivalent to being able to find a product of all elements is the identity. If $a_1=a_2cdots a_n$ then $a_1^-1=a_n^-1cdots a_2^-1$ err nevermind it's all the elements not all but one
    – N8tron
    Jun 10 at 0:15











  • If there are 4 elements of order two, if two of them commute, then their product is another element of order two, and the product of the three elements is trivial.
    – san
    Aug 12 at 3:58












  • 3




    If the group is commutative, you can pick $a_1=prod_gin G g$ (as the product does not depend on the order of multiplication). In the case where there is no element of order two, you can choose $a_1=e_G$ (the neutral element) and order the rest in such a way that you group $g$ and $g^-1$ next to each other. I have no idea how to do it in the general case.
    – Severin Schraven
    Jun 9 at 22:03










  • If $G$ is non-abelian, fixing an arbitrary $a_1 in G$ leaves you with $(n - 1)!$ different ways to choose the remaining terms. Some of the resulting products may repeat, but perhaps "enough" of them do not to sweep out the group itself.
    – rwbogl
    Jun 9 at 22:25






  • 4




    @rwbogl That might work for perfect groups. But the product of all elements of $G$ is well-defined up to $G'$, so if $G$ has a nontrivial abelianization $G/G'$, then there are elements that won't work as $a_1$.
    – Ravi Fernando
    Jun 9 at 23:49










  • Note this is equivalent to being able to find a product of all elements is the identity. If $a_1=a_2cdots a_n$ then $a_1^-1=a_n^-1cdots a_2^-1$ err nevermind it's all the elements not all but one
    – N8tron
    Jun 10 at 0:15











  • If there are 4 elements of order two, if two of them commute, then their product is another element of order two, and the product of the three elements is trivial.
    – san
    Aug 12 at 3:58







3




3




If the group is commutative, you can pick $a_1=prod_gin G g$ (as the product does not depend on the order of multiplication). In the case where there is no element of order two, you can choose $a_1=e_G$ (the neutral element) and order the rest in such a way that you group $g$ and $g^-1$ next to each other. I have no idea how to do it in the general case.
– Severin Schraven
Jun 9 at 22:03




If the group is commutative, you can pick $a_1=prod_gin G g$ (as the product does not depend on the order of multiplication). In the case where there is no element of order two, you can choose $a_1=e_G$ (the neutral element) and order the rest in such a way that you group $g$ and $g^-1$ next to each other. I have no idea how to do it in the general case.
– Severin Schraven
Jun 9 at 22:03












If $G$ is non-abelian, fixing an arbitrary $a_1 in G$ leaves you with $(n - 1)!$ different ways to choose the remaining terms. Some of the resulting products may repeat, but perhaps "enough" of them do not to sweep out the group itself.
– rwbogl
Jun 9 at 22:25




If $G$ is non-abelian, fixing an arbitrary $a_1 in G$ leaves you with $(n - 1)!$ different ways to choose the remaining terms. Some of the resulting products may repeat, but perhaps "enough" of them do not to sweep out the group itself.
– rwbogl
Jun 9 at 22:25




4




4




@rwbogl That might work for perfect groups. But the product of all elements of $G$ is well-defined up to $G'$, so if $G$ has a nontrivial abelianization $G/G'$, then there are elements that won't work as $a_1$.
– Ravi Fernando
Jun 9 at 23:49




@rwbogl That might work for perfect groups. But the product of all elements of $G$ is well-defined up to $G'$, so if $G$ has a nontrivial abelianization $G/G'$, then there are elements that won't work as $a_1$.
– Ravi Fernando
Jun 9 at 23:49












Note this is equivalent to being able to find a product of all elements is the identity. If $a_1=a_2cdots a_n$ then $a_1^-1=a_n^-1cdots a_2^-1$ err nevermind it's all the elements not all but one
– N8tron
Jun 10 at 0:15





Note this is equivalent to being able to find a product of all elements is the identity. If $a_1=a_2cdots a_n$ then $a_1^-1=a_n^-1cdots a_2^-1$ err nevermind it's all the elements not all but one
– N8tron
Jun 10 at 0:15













If there are 4 elements of order two, if two of them commute, then their product is another element of order two, and the product of the three elements is trivial.
– san
Aug 12 at 3:58




If there are 4 elements of order two, if two of them commute, then their product is another element of order two, and the product of the three elements is trivial.
– san
Aug 12 at 3:58










1 Answer
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up vote
4
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+50










We will prove a bit stronger result: Given an element $x_0$ of order two, we can order the elements in the group such that one of the following cases occur:



  1. The product is trivial, and you can set $a_1=1$.


  2. The product is equal to $x_0$ and the first element is $x_0$.


Proof: Let $X$ be the set of elements of order two and set $$X_0= xin Xsetminus x_0: xx_0=x_0x$$ and $$X_1= xin X: xx_0ne x_0x.$$



Then we have the disjoint union
$$ X=x_0cup X_0cup X_1$$
Consider the orbits $x,x_0x$ in $X_0$ corresponding to (left) multiplication by $x_0$, and the orbits $x, x_0 x x_0$ in $X_1$ corresponding to the adjunction with $x_0$.
Clearly all orbits have cardinality two.
For each pair of orbits $x,x_0 x, y, x_0 y$ in $X_0$ consider the product
$$ xcdot (x_0 x)cdot y cdot (x_0 y)= x_0 cdot x_0=1,$$



and for each orbit $ x, x_0 x x_0$ in $X_1$ set $g= x_0 x$ (so $g^-1=x x_0=x_0(x_0 x x_0)$) and consider the product
$$ g cdot x cdot g^-1cdot (x_0 x x_0)= x_0 cdot x_0=1.$$



Note that the sets $ g, g^-1$ are disjoint, since the orbits are disjoint.



So, if there is an odd number of orbits in $X_0$, set $a_1=1$, then take one orbit $ x,x_0 x$ in $X_0$, and consider the product $$ x_0 cdot x cdot (x_0 x)=1.$$
Then form the product of all elements in $G$ multiplying by the products corresponding to pairs of orbits in $X_0$, then by the products corresponding to orbits in $X_1$, and finally multiplying by pairs $ g, g^-1$ of elements in $Gsetminus X$ that have not been used in any of the previous products. Then the product of all elements is trivial.



If there is an even number of orbits in $X_0$, then set $a_1=x_0$ and multiply as before by the remaining elements. Then the product of all the elements is $x_0$, which is the first element.






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    1 Answer
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    1 Answer
    1






    active

    oldest

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    active

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    active

    oldest

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    up vote
    4
    down vote



    +50










    We will prove a bit stronger result: Given an element $x_0$ of order two, we can order the elements in the group such that one of the following cases occur:



    1. The product is trivial, and you can set $a_1=1$.


    2. The product is equal to $x_0$ and the first element is $x_0$.


    Proof: Let $X$ be the set of elements of order two and set $$X_0= xin Xsetminus x_0: xx_0=x_0x$$ and $$X_1= xin X: xx_0ne x_0x.$$



    Then we have the disjoint union
    $$ X=x_0cup X_0cup X_1$$
    Consider the orbits $x,x_0x$ in $X_0$ corresponding to (left) multiplication by $x_0$, and the orbits $x, x_0 x x_0$ in $X_1$ corresponding to the adjunction with $x_0$.
    Clearly all orbits have cardinality two.
    For each pair of orbits $x,x_0 x, y, x_0 y$ in $X_0$ consider the product
    $$ xcdot (x_0 x)cdot y cdot (x_0 y)= x_0 cdot x_0=1,$$



    and for each orbit $ x, x_0 x x_0$ in $X_1$ set $g= x_0 x$ (so $g^-1=x x_0=x_0(x_0 x x_0)$) and consider the product
    $$ g cdot x cdot g^-1cdot (x_0 x x_0)= x_0 cdot x_0=1.$$



    Note that the sets $ g, g^-1$ are disjoint, since the orbits are disjoint.



    So, if there is an odd number of orbits in $X_0$, set $a_1=1$, then take one orbit $ x,x_0 x$ in $X_0$, and consider the product $$ x_0 cdot x cdot (x_0 x)=1.$$
    Then form the product of all elements in $G$ multiplying by the products corresponding to pairs of orbits in $X_0$, then by the products corresponding to orbits in $X_1$, and finally multiplying by pairs $ g, g^-1$ of elements in $Gsetminus X$ that have not been used in any of the previous products. Then the product of all elements is trivial.



    If there is an even number of orbits in $X_0$, then set $a_1=x_0$ and multiply as before by the remaining elements. Then the product of all the elements is $x_0$, which is the first element.






    share|cite|improve this answer



























      up vote
      4
      down vote



      +50










      We will prove a bit stronger result: Given an element $x_0$ of order two, we can order the elements in the group such that one of the following cases occur:



      1. The product is trivial, and you can set $a_1=1$.


      2. The product is equal to $x_0$ and the first element is $x_0$.


      Proof: Let $X$ be the set of elements of order two and set $$X_0= xin Xsetminus x_0: xx_0=x_0x$$ and $$X_1= xin X: xx_0ne x_0x.$$



      Then we have the disjoint union
      $$ X=x_0cup X_0cup X_1$$
      Consider the orbits $x,x_0x$ in $X_0$ corresponding to (left) multiplication by $x_0$, and the orbits $x, x_0 x x_0$ in $X_1$ corresponding to the adjunction with $x_0$.
      Clearly all orbits have cardinality two.
      For each pair of orbits $x,x_0 x, y, x_0 y$ in $X_0$ consider the product
      $$ xcdot (x_0 x)cdot y cdot (x_0 y)= x_0 cdot x_0=1,$$



      and for each orbit $ x, x_0 x x_0$ in $X_1$ set $g= x_0 x$ (so $g^-1=x x_0=x_0(x_0 x x_0)$) and consider the product
      $$ g cdot x cdot g^-1cdot (x_0 x x_0)= x_0 cdot x_0=1.$$



      Note that the sets $ g, g^-1$ are disjoint, since the orbits are disjoint.



      So, if there is an odd number of orbits in $X_0$, set $a_1=1$, then take one orbit $ x,x_0 x$ in $X_0$, and consider the product $$ x_0 cdot x cdot (x_0 x)=1.$$
      Then form the product of all elements in $G$ multiplying by the products corresponding to pairs of orbits in $X_0$, then by the products corresponding to orbits in $X_1$, and finally multiplying by pairs $ g, g^-1$ of elements in $Gsetminus X$ that have not been used in any of the previous products. Then the product of all elements is trivial.



      If there is an even number of orbits in $X_0$, then set $a_1=x_0$ and multiply as before by the remaining elements. Then the product of all the elements is $x_0$, which is the first element.






      share|cite|improve this answer

























        up vote
        4
        down vote



        +50







        up vote
        4
        down vote



        +50




        +50




        We will prove a bit stronger result: Given an element $x_0$ of order two, we can order the elements in the group such that one of the following cases occur:



        1. The product is trivial, and you can set $a_1=1$.


        2. The product is equal to $x_0$ and the first element is $x_0$.


        Proof: Let $X$ be the set of elements of order two and set $$X_0= xin Xsetminus x_0: xx_0=x_0x$$ and $$X_1= xin X: xx_0ne x_0x.$$



        Then we have the disjoint union
        $$ X=x_0cup X_0cup X_1$$
        Consider the orbits $x,x_0x$ in $X_0$ corresponding to (left) multiplication by $x_0$, and the orbits $x, x_0 x x_0$ in $X_1$ corresponding to the adjunction with $x_0$.
        Clearly all orbits have cardinality two.
        For each pair of orbits $x,x_0 x, y, x_0 y$ in $X_0$ consider the product
        $$ xcdot (x_0 x)cdot y cdot (x_0 y)= x_0 cdot x_0=1,$$



        and for each orbit $ x, x_0 x x_0$ in $X_1$ set $g= x_0 x$ (so $g^-1=x x_0=x_0(x_0 x x_0)$) and consider the product
        $$ g cdot x cdot g^-1cdot (x_0 x x_0)= x_0 cdot x_0=1.$$



        Note that the sets $ g, g^-1$ are disjoint, since the orbits are disjoint.



        So, if there is an odd number of orbits in $X_0$, set $a_1=1$, then take one orbit $ x,x_0 x$ in $X_0$, and consider the product $$ x_0 cdot x cdot (x_0 x)=1.$$
        Then form the product of all elements in $G$ multiplying by the products corresponding to pairs of orbits in $X_0$, then by the products corresponding to orbits in $X_1$, and finally multiplying by pairs $ g, g^-1$ of elements in $Gsetminus X$ that have not been used in any of the previous products. Then the product of all elements is trivial.



        If there is an even number of orbits in $X_0$, then set $a_1=x_0$ and multiply as before by the remaining elements. Then the product of all the elements is $x_0$, which is the first element.






        share|cite|improve this answer















        We will prove a bit stronger result: Given an element $x_0$ of order two, we can order the elements in the group such that one of the following cases occur:



        1. The product is trivial, and you can set $a_1=1$.


        2. The product is equal to $x_0$ and the first element is $x_0$.


        Proof: Let $X$ be the set of elements of order two and set $$X_0= xin Xsetminus x_0: xx_0=x_0x$$ and $$X_1= xin X: xx_0ne x_0x.$$



        Then we have the disjoint union
        $$ X=x_0cup X_0cup X_1$$
        Consider the orbits $x,x_0x$ in $X_0$ corresponding to (left) multiplication by $x_0$, and the orbits $x, x_0 x x_0$ in $X_1$ corresponding to the adjunction with $x_0$.
        Clearly all orbits have cardinality two.
        For each pair of orbits $x,x_0 x, y, x_0 y$ in $X_0$ consider the product
        $$ xcdot (x_0 x)cdot y cdot (x_0 y)= x_0 cdot x_0=1,$$



        and for each orbit $ x, x_0 x x_0$ in $X_1$ set $g= x_0 x$ (so $g^-1=x x_0=x_0(x_0 x x_0)$) and consider the product
        $$ g cdot x cdot g^-1cdot (x_0 x x_0)= x_0 cdot x_0=1.$$



        Note that the sets $ g, g^-1$ are disjoint, since the orbits are disjoint.



        So, if there is an odd number of orbits in $X_0$, set $a_1=1$, then take one orbit $ x,x_0 x$ in $X_0$, and consider the product $$ x_0 cdot x cdot (x_0 x)=1.$$
        Then form the product of all elements in $G$ multiplying by the products corresponding to pairs of orbits in $X_0$, then by the products corresponding to orbits in $X_1$, and finally multiplying by pairs $ g, g^-1$ of elements in $Gsetminus X$ that have not been used in any of the previous products. Then the product of all elements is trivial.



        If there is an even number of orbits in $X_0$, then set $a_1=x_0$ and multiply as before by the remaining elements. Then the product of all the elements is $x_0$, which is the first element.







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        edited Aug 12 at 18:23


























        answered Aug 12 at 18:15









        san

        12k11132




        12k11132






















             

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