What does the subject GRE measure?
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I took the math subject GRE in 2010, two years before I got my bachelor's degree. I hadn't taken Complex Variables or Topology or even Linear Algebra. Right before the exam, I quit school for the fourth time. I had not prepared at all, I was depressed with suicidal tendencies, and I stopped working every time the proctor walked by.
I got a 680 (58th percentile).
My school told me they were disappointed and hoped I would do better, but I got into their Ph. D. program anyway because they didn't even require subject GRE scores (definitely not an Ivy League school).
So, seven years later, I have a master's degree. My life is stable. I got a Ph. D. level pass on the qualifying exams. I definitely know a lot more math. I've published a paper proving something conjectured in another paper. I wanted to take the math subject GRE again to prove I could do better. I spent months preparing. I went over all the material for hours a day. I did tons of exercises. I took timed practice exams, acing the old, easy tests, and getting 90+ percentile scores on the rescaled practice tests (mostly arithmetic errors), which I guess are still easy.
Scores just came in this morning: 720 (64th percentile).
So, how can my proficiency in Mathematics increase so much, while my math subject GRE score has increased so little? What exactly is the math subject GRE exam measuring? And most importantly, how do I get it?
gre-exam
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up vote
4
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I took the math subject GRE in 2010, two years before I got my bachelor's degree. I hadn't taken Complex Variables or Topology or even Linear Algebra. Right before the exam, I quit school for the fourth time. I had not prepared at all, I was depressed with suicidal tendencies, and I stopped working every time the proctor walked by.
I got a 680 (58th percentile).
My school told me they were disappointed and hoped I would do better, but I got into their Ph. D. program anyway because they didn't even require subject GRE scores (definitely not an Ivy League school).
So, seven years later, I have a master's degree. My life is stable. I got a Ph. D. level pass on the qualifying exams. I definitely know a lot more math. I've published a paper proving something conjectured in another paper. I wanted to take the math subject GRE again to prove I could do better. I spent months preparing. I went over all the material for hours a day. I did tons of exercises. I took timed practice exams, acing the old, easy tests, and getting 90+ percentile scores on the rescaled practice tests (mostly arithmetic errors), which I guess are still easy.
Scores just came in this morning: 720 (64th percentile).
So, how can my proficiency in Mathematics increase so much, while my math subject GRE score has increased so little? What exactly is the math subject GRE exam measuring? And most importantly, how do I get it?
gre-exam
1
it's mostly multivariate calculus and then some somewhat obscure but elementary things picked from various fields: number theory, topology, probability, partial differential equations, abstract algebra, etc. You can spend your whole life mastering a very particular field, say frames for Hilbert spaces and their applications, or shallow water waves, or elliptic curves, and never progress past some 'low' percentile in the subject test. It is a test which covers a broad swath of material that most people only need to know part of.
â Tony S.F.
Oct 13 '17 at 12:48
1
Not an answer since I don't know anything about that exam. My question: why bother? You seem to be on track to doing real mathematics at a level appropriate for you. Maybe if you'd spent that exam preparation time on your research you'd have published another paper or two.
â Ethan Bolker
Oct 13 '17 at 12:48
@EthanBolker there is nothing wrong with wanting to achieve a goal you set for yourself, i.e. in this case the OP wanted to do well to prove to themselves that they could do better (stated in the post). Life is not just about writing papers, you could use the same argument you just made to say, "why would any mathematician want to do X?" where X does not contribute to their research.
â Tony S.F.
Oct 13 '17 at 12:50
@TonyS.F. I think X is something mathematical. So why would someone do something mathematical that does not contribute to that person's mathematical research if that person does mathematical research for a living?
â BCLC
Aug 28 at 6:46
1
@BCLC the generality of allowing non professional things encompasses the case when the hobby is slightly related to the profession. Sure, if it makes it more clear for you then consider the question "Why do some professional pianists learn about woodwork and carpentry and piano making?". The answer is still the same, though.
â Tony S.F.
Aug 30 at 12:31
 |Â
show 8 more comments
up vote
4
down vote
favorite
up vote
4
down vote
favorite
I took the math subject GRE in 2010, two years before I got my bachelor's degree. I hadn't taken Complex Variables or Topology or even Linear Algebra. Right before the exam, I quit school for the fourth time. I had not prepared at all, I was depressed with suicidal tendencies, and I stopped working every time the proctor walked by.
I got a 680 (58th percentile).
My school told me they were disappointed and hoped I would do better, but I got into their Ph. D. program anyway because they didn't even require subject GRE scores (definitely not an Ivy League school).
So, seven years later, I have a master's degree. My life is stable. I got a Ph. D. level pass on the qualifying exams. I definitely know a lot more math. I've published a paper proving something conjectured in another paper. I wanted to take the math subject GRE again to prove I could do better. I spent months preparing. I went over all the material for hours a day. I did tons of exercises. I took timed practice exams, acing the old, easy tests, and getting 90+ percentile scores on the rescaled practice tests (mostly arithmetic errors), which I guess are still easy.
Scores just came in this morning: 720 (64th percentile).
So, how can my proficiency in Mathematics increase so much, while my math subject GRE score has increased so little? What exactly is the math subject GRE exam measuring? And most importantly, how do I get it?
gre-exam
I took the math subject GRE in 2010, two years before I got my bachelor's degree. I hadn't taken Complex Variables or Topology or even Linear Algebra. Right before the exam, I quit school for the fourth time. I had not prepared at all, I was depressed with suicidal tendencies, and I stopped working every time the proctor walked by.
I got a 680 (58th percentile).
My school told me they were disappointed and hoped I would do better, but I got into their Ph. D. program anyway because they didn't even require subject GRE scores (definitely not an Ivy League school).
So, seven years later, I have a master's degree. My life is stable. I got a Ph. D. level pass on the qualifying exams. I definitely know a lot more math. I've published a paper proving something conjectured in another paper. I wanted to take the math subject GRE again to prove I could do better. I spent months preparing. I went over all the material for hours a day. I did tons of exercises. I took timed practice exams, acing the old, easy tests, and getting 90+ percentile scores on the rescaled practice tests (mostly arithmetic errors), which I guess are still easy.
Scores just came in this morning: 720 (64th percentile).
So, how can my proficiency in Mathematics increase so much, while my math subject GRE score has increased so little? What exactly is the math subject GRE exam measuring? And most importantly, how do I get it?
gre-exam
asked Oct 13 '17 at 12:45
user144527
40129
40129
1
it's mostly multivariate calculus and then some somewhat obscure but elementary things picked from various fields: number theory, topology, probability, partial differential equations, abstract algebra, etc. You can spend your whole life mastering a very particular field, say frames for Hilbert spaces and their applications, or shallow water waves, or elliptic curves, and never progress past some 'low' percentile in the subject test. It is a test which covers a broad swath of material that most people only need to know part of.
â Tony S.F.
Oct 13 '17 at 12:48
1
Not an answer since I don't know anything about that exam. My question: why bother? You seem to be on track to doing real mathematics at a level appropriate for you. Maybe if you'd spent that exam preparation time on your research you'd have published another paper or two.
â Ethan Bolker
Oct 13 '17 at 12:48
@EthanBolker there is nothing wrong with wanting to achieve a goal you set for yourself, i.e. in this case the OP wanted to do well to prove to themselves that they could do better (stated in the post). Life is not just about writing papers, you could use the same argument you just made to say, "why would any mathematician want to do X?" where X does not contribute to their research.
â Tony S.F.
Oct 13 '17 at 12:50
@TonyS.F. I think X is something mathematical. So why would someone do something mathematical that does not contribute to that person's mathematical research if that person does mathematical research for a living?
â BCLC
Aug 28 at 6:46
1
@BCLC the generality of allowing non professional things encompasses the case when the hobby is slightly related to the profession. Sure, if it makes it more clear for you then consider the question "Why do some professional pianists learn about woodwork and carpentry and piano making?". The answer is still the same, though.
â Tony S.F.
Aug 30 at 12:31
 |Â
show 8 more comments
1
it's mostly multivariate calculus and then some somewhat obscure but elementary things picked from various fields: number theory, topology, probability, partial differential equations, abstract algebra, etc. You can spend your whole life mastering a very particular field, say frames for Hilbert spaces and their applications, or shallow water waves, or elliptic curves, and never progress past some 'low' percentile in the subject test. It is a test which covers a broad swath of material that most people only need to know part of.
â Tony S.F.
Oct 13 '17 at 12:48
1
Not an answer since I don't know anything about that exam. My question: why bother? You seem to be on track to doing real mathematics at a level appropriate for you. Maybe if you'd spent that exam preparation time on your research you'd have published another paper or two.
â Ethan Bolker
Oct 13 '17 at 12:48
@EthanBolker there is nothing wrong with wanting to achieve a goal you set for yourself, i.e. in this case the OP wanted to do well to prove to themselves that they could do better (stated in the post). Life is not just about writing papers, you could use the same argument you just made to say, "why would any mathematician want to do X?" where X does not contribute to their research.
â Tony S.F.
Oct 13 '17 at 12:50
@TonyS.F. I think X is something mathematical. So why would someone do something mathematical that does not contribute to that person's mathematical research if that person does mathematical research for a living?
â BCLC
Aug 28 at 6:46
1
@BCLC the generality of allowing non professional things encompasses the case when the hobby is slightly related to the profession. Sure, if it makes it more clear for you then consider the question "Why do some professional pianists learn about woodwork and carpentry and piano making?". The answer is still the same, though.
â Tony S.F.
Aug 30 at 12:31
1
1
it's mostly multivariate calculus and then some somewhat obscure but elementary things picked from various fields: number theory, topology, probability, partial differential equations, abstract algebra, etc. You can spend your whole life mastering a very particular field, say frames for Hilbert spaces and their applications, or shallow water waves, or elliptic curves, and never progress past some 'low' percentile in the subject test. It is a test which covers a broad swath of material that most people only need to know part of.
â Tony S.F.
Oct 13 '17 at 12:48
it's mostly multivariate calculus and then some somewhat obscure but elementary things picked from various fields: number theory, topology, probability, partial differential equations, abstract algebra, etc. You can spend your whole life mastering a very particular field, say frames for Hilbert spaces and their applications, or shallow water waves, or elliptic curves, and never progress past some 'low' percentile in the subject test. It is a test which covers a broad swath of material that most people only need to know part of.
â Tony S.F.
Oct 13 '17 at 12:48
1
1
Not an answer since I don't know anything about that exam. My question: why bother? You seem to be on track to doing real mathematics at a level appropriate for you. Maybe if you'd spent that exam preparation time on your research you'd have published another paper or two.
â Ethan Bolker
Oct 13 '17 at 12:48
Not an answer since I don't know anything about that exam. My question: why bother? You seem to be on track to doing real mathematics at a level appropriate for you. Maybe if you'd spent that exam preparation time on your research you'd have published another paper or two.
â Ethan Bolker
Oct 13 '17 at 12:48
@EthanBolker there is nothing wrong with wanting to achieve a goal you set for yourself, i.e. in this case the OP wanted to do well to prove to themselves that they could do better (stated in the post). Life is not just about writing papers, you could use the same argument you just made to say, "why would any mathematician want to do X?" where X does not contribute to their research.
â Tony S.F.
Oct 13 '17 at 12:50
@EthanBolker there is nothing wrong with wanting to achieve a goal you set for yourself, i.e. in this case the OP wanted to do well to prove to themselves that they could do better (stated in the post). Life is not just about writing papers, you could use the same argument you just made to say, "why would any mathematician want to do X?" where X does not contribute to their research.
â Tony S.F.
Oct 13 '17 at 12:50
@TonyS.F. I think X is something mathematical. So why would someone do something mathematical that does not contribute to that person's mathematical research if that person does mathematical research for a living?
â BCLC
Aug 28 at 6:46
@TonyS.F. I think X is something mathematical. So why would someone do something mathematical that does not contribute to that person's mathematical research if that person does mathematical research for a living?
â BCLC
Aug 28 at 6:46
1
1
@BCLC the generality of allowing non professional things encompasses the case when the hobby is slightly related to the profession. Sure, if it makes it more clear for you then consider the question "Why do some professional pianists learn about woodwork and carpentry and piano making?". The answer is still the same, though.
â Tony S.F.
Aug 30 at 12:31
@BCLC the generality of allowing non professional things encompasses the case when the hobby is slightly related to the profession. Sure, if it makes it more clear for you then consider the question "Why do some professional pianists learn about woodwork and carpentry and piano making?". The answer is still the same, though.
â Tony S.F.
Aug 30 at 12:31
 |Â
show 8 more comments
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
up vote
3
down vote
I know this is an old question, and excuse me for what some might consider an overly pessimistic attitude, but:
The GRE is measuring your ability to take the GRE. ETS is a private institution whose interested in maintaining the nigh forced purchasing of their product. To quote a comment in this thread:
More bluntly, it's a self-perpetuating racket by ETS who makes a bloody fortune on useless testing and selling "preparation materials" to train the subjects of their supposedly valid testing methods. Deductive logic test: if the GRE is a measure of inherent qualities, then preparation should not significantly affect a subject's score.
ⶠTrue
â· False
⸠Either way, ETS makes more money
AmagicalFishy, your post seems to refer to GRE general. Does your post refer also to GRE subject?
â BCLC
Aug 28 at 6:48
1
@BCLC Yes, it does (unless there's some significant difference between the physics and mathematics subject tests, and other subject tests).
â AmagicalFishy
Aug 28 at 13:18
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Please check your implicit assumptions. It is an assumption that any test score "measures" some objectively knowable quantity in a statistical sense. For example, the claim that "IQ" tests measure intelligence. At best, there is a positive correlation between such test scores and abilities that would be considered signs of intelligence. The best measure is behaving intelligently no matter what test scores indicate. The real question is "what do you want to do and why?" and only you can answer that for yourself. One good use of tests is what you did by taking practice tests and see where you are missing abilities. They can show where you can try do better.
If your goal is to increase your mathematics proficiency, then you are on the right path. Use the tests to highlight weaknesses, but don't mistake good test scores for good proficiency. They are only positively correlated. It all depends on the actual test. A bad test can be useless. Finally, don't mistake "school mathematics" for real mathematics. It is an easy mistake to make until you have a lot of experience with real mathematics.
Did you perhaps mean 'but don't mistake bad test scores for bad proficiency' ? Idk, I think good test scores would indicate good proficiency. Just not vice-versa
â BCLC
Aug 28 at 14:46
add a comment |Â
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
3
down vote
I know this is an old question, and excuse me for what some might consider an overly pessimistic attitude, but:
The GRE is measuring your ability to take the GRE. ETS is a private institution whose interested in maintaining the nigh forced purchasing of their product. To quote a comment in this thread:
More bluntly, it's a self-perpetuating racket by ETS who makes a bloody fortune on useless testing and selling "preparation materials" to train the subjects of their supposedly valid testing methods. Deductive logic test: if the GRE is a measure of inherent qualities, then preparation should not significantly affect a subject's score.
ⶠTrue
â· False
⸠Either way, ETS makes more money
AmagicalFishy, your post seems to refer to GRE general. Does your post refer also to GRE subject?
â BCLC
Aug 28 at 6:48
1
@BCLC Yes, it does (unless there's some significant difference between the physics and mathematics subject tests, and other subject tests).
â AmagicalFishy
Aug 28 at 13:18
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
I know this is an old question, and excuse me for what some might consider an overly pessimistic attitude, but:
The GRE is measuring your ability to take the GRE. ETS is a private institution whose interested in maintaining the nigh forced purchasing of their product. To quote a comment in this thread:
More bluntly, it's a self-perpetuating racket by ETS who makes a bloody fortune on useless testing and selling "preparation materials" to train the subjects of their supposedly valid testing methods. Deductive logic test: if the GRE is a measure of inherent qualities, then preparation should not significantly affect a subject's score.
ⶠTrue
â· False
⸠Either way, ETS makes more money
AmagicalFishy, your post seems to refer to GRE general. Does your post refer also to GRE subject?
â BCLC
Aug 28 at 6:48
1
@BCLC Yes, it does (unless there's some significant difference between the physics and mathematics subject tests, and other subject tests).
â AmagicalFishy
Aug 28 at 13:18
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
I know this is an old question, and excuse me for what some might consider an overly pessimistic attitude, but:
The GRE is measuring your ability to take the GRE. ETS is a private institution whose interested in maintaining the nigh forced purchasing of their product. To quote a comment in this thread:
More bluntly, it's a self-perpetuating racket by ETS who makes a bloody fortune on useless testing and selling "preparation materials" to train the subjects of their supposedly valid testing methods. Deductive logic test: if the GRE is a measure of inherent qualities, then preparation should not significantly affect a subject's score.
ⶠTrue
â· False
⸠Either way, ETS makes more money
I know this is an old question, and excuse me for what some might consider an overly pessimistic attitude, but:
The GRE is measuring your ability to take the GRE. ETS is a private institution whose interested in maintaining the nigh forced purchasing of their product. To quote a comment in this thread:
More bluntly, it's a self-perpetuating racket by ETS who makes a bloody fortune on useless testing and selling "preparation materials" to train the subjects of their supposedly valid testing methods. Deductive logic test: if the GRE is a measure of inherent qualities, then preparation should not significantly affect a subject's score.
ⶠTrue
â· False
⸠Either way, ETS makes more money
answered Oct 26 '17 at 10:36
AmagicalFishy
1,1101024
1,1101024
AmagicalFishy, your post seems to refer to GRE general. Does your post refer also to GRE subject?
â BCLC
Aug 28 at 6:48
1
@BCLC Yes, it does (unless there's some significant difference between the physics and mathematics subject tests, and other subject tests).
â AmagicalFishy
Aug 28 at 13:18
add a comment |Â
AmagicalFishy, your post seems to refer to GRE general. Does your post refer also to GRE subject?
â BCLC
Aug 28 at 6:48
1
@BCLC Yes, it does (unless there's some significant difference between the physics and mathematics subject tests, and other subject tests).
â AmagicalFishy
Aug 28 at 13:18
AmagicalFishy, your post seems to refer to GRE general. Does your post refer also to GRE subject?
â BCLC
Aug 28 at 6:48
AmagicalFishy, your post seems to refer to GRE general. Does your post refer also to GRE subject?
â BCLC
Aug 28 at 6:48
1
1
@BCLC Yes, it does (unless there's some significant difference between the physics and mathematics subject tests, and other subject tests).
â AmagicalFishy
Aug 28 at 13:18
@BCLC Yes, it does (unless there's some significant difference between the physics and mathematics subject tests, and other subject tests).
â AmagicalFishy
Aug 28 at 13:18
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Please check your implicit assumptions. It is an assumption that any test score "measures" some objectively knowable quantity in a statistical sense. For example, the claim that "IQ" tests measure intelligence. At best, there is a positive correlation between such test scores and abilities that would be considered signs of intelligence. The best measure is behaving intelligently no matter what test scores indicate. The real question is "what do you want to do and why?" and only you can answer that for yourself. One good use of tests is what you did by taking practice tests and see where you are missing abilities. They can show where you can try do better.
If your goal is to increase your mathematics proficiency, then you are on the right path. Use the tests to highlight weaknesses, but don't mistake good test scores for good proficiency. They are only positively correlated. It all depends on the actual test. A bad test can be useless. Finally, don't mistake "school mathematics" for real mathematics. It is an easy mistake to make until you have a lot of experience with real mathematics.
Did you perhaps mean 'but don't mistake bad test scores for bad proficiency' ? Idk, I think good test scores would indicate good proficiency. Just not vice-versa
â BCLC
Aug 28 at 14:46
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
Please check your implicit assumptions. It is an assumption that any test score "measures" some objectively knowable quantity in a statistical sense. For example, the claim that "IQ" tests measure intelligence. At best, there is a positive correlation between such test scores and abilities that would be considered signs of intelligence. The best measure is behaving intelligently no matter what test scores indicate. The real question is "what do you want to do and why?" and only you can answer that for yourself. One good use of tests is what you did by taking practice tests and see where you are missing abilities. They can show where you can try do better.
If your goal is to increase your mathematics proficiency, then you are on the right path. Use the tests to highlight weaknesses, but don't mistake good test scores for good proficiency. They are only positively correlated. It all depends on the actual test. A bad test can be useless. Finally, don't mistake "school mathematics" for real mathematics. It is an easy mistake to make until you have a lot of experience with real mathematics.
Did you perhaps mean 'but don't mistake bad test scores for bad proficiency' ? Idk, I think good test scores would indicate good proficiency. Just not vice-versa
â BCLC
Aug 28 at 14:46
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
Please check your implicit assumptions. It is an assumption that any test score "measures" some objectively knowable quantity in a statistical sense. For example, the claim that "IQ" tests measure intelligence. At best, there is a positive correlation between such test scores and abilities that would be considered signs of intelligence. The best measure is behaving intelligently no matter what test scores indicate. The real question is "what do you want to do and why?" and only you can answer that for yourself. One good use of tests is what you did by taking practice tests and see where you are missing abilities. They can show where you can try do better.
If your goal is to increase your mathematics proficiency, then you are on the right path. Use the tests to highlight weaknesses, but don't mistake good test scores for good proficiency. They are only positively correlated. It all depends on the actual test. A bad test can be useless. Finally, don't mistake "school mathematics" for real mathematics. It is an easy mistake to make until you have a lot of experience with real mathematics.
Please check your implicit assumptions. It is an assumption that any test score "measures" some objectively knowable quantity in a statistical sense. For example, the claim that "IQ" tests measure intelligence. At best, there is a positive correlation between such test scores and abilities that would be considered signs of intelligence. The best measure is behaving intelligently no matter what test scores indicate. The real question is "what do you want to do and why?" and only you can answer that for yourself. One good use of tests is what you did by taking practice tests and see where you are missing abilities. They can show where you can try do better.
If your goal is to increase your mathematics proficiency, then you are on the right path. Use the tests to highlight weaknesses, but don't mistake good test scores for good proficiency. They are only positively correlated. It all depends on the actual test. A bad test can be useless. Finally, don't mistake "school mathematics" for real mathematics. It is an easy mistake to make until you have a lot of experience with real mathematics.
edited Aug 28 at 11:05
answered Oct 13 '17 at 14:56
Somos
11.8k11033
11.8k11033
Did you perhaps mean 'but don't mistake bad test scores for bad proficiency' ? Idk, I think good test scores would indicate good proficiency. Just not vice-versa
â BCLC
Aug 28 at 14:46
add a comment |Â
Did you perhaps mean 'but don't mistake bad test scores for bad proficiency' ? Idk, I think good test scores would indicate good proficiency. Just not vice-versa
â BCLC
Aug 28 at 14:46
Did you perhaps mean 'but don't mistake bad test scores for bad proficiency' ? Idk, I think good test scores would indicate good proficiency. Just not vice-versa
â BCLC
Aug 28 at 14:46
Did you perhaps mean 'but don't mistake bad test scores for bad proficiency' ? Idk, I think good test scores would indicate good proficiency. Just not vice-versa
â BCLC
Aug 28 at 14:46
add a comment |Â
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1
it's mostly multivariate calculus and then some somewhat obscure but elementary things picked from various fields: number theory, topology, probability, partial differential equations, abstract algebra, etc. You can spend your whole life mastering a very particular field, say frames for Hilbert spaces and their applications, or shallow water waves, or elliptic curves, and never progress past some 'low' percentile in the subject test. It is a test which covers a broad swath of material that most people only need to know part of.
â Tony S.F.
Oct 13 '17 at 12:48
1
Not an answer since I don't know anything about that exam. My question: why bother? You seem to be on track to doing real mathematics at a level appropriate for you. Maybe if you'd spent that exam preparation time on your research you'd have published another paper or two.
â Ethan Bolker
Oct 13 '17 at 12:48
@EthanBolker there is nothing wrong with wanting to achieve a goal you set for yourself, i.e. in this case the OP wanted to do well to prove to themselves that they could do better (stated in the post). Life is not just about writing papers, you could use the same argument you just made to say, "why would any mathematician want to do X?" where X does not contribute to their research.
â Tony S.F.
Oct 13 '17 at 12:50
@TonyS.F. I think X is something mathematical. So why would someone do something mathematical that does not contribute to that person's mathematical research if that person does mathematical research for a living?
â BCLC
Aug 28 at 6:46
1
@BCLC the generality of allowing non professional things encompasses the case when the hobby is slightly related to the profession. Sure, if it makes it more clear for you then consider the question "Why do some professional pianists learn about woodwork and carpentry and piano making?". The answer is still the same, though.
â Tony S.F.
Aug 30 at 12:31