Does value of differentiation as infinity implies continuity?
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I come across Mean value theorem proof which is attached below
Which has an assumption that f has derivative (finite or infinite ) at each interior point and continuity is assumed at endpoint.
In proof assumption used that function f is continuous over whole interval.
But I am not convinced with fact that f has infinite derivative and continuous at that point .
I tried to use definition I get $|f(x)-f(y)|=|x-y|f'(c)$ one side is infinite how to show for continuity.
Also Is it possible to have function which every where derivation infinity?
I think question is wrong As I could not imagine function every where like a verticle line.
But Asking for in case exist?
Any help will be appreciated
Edit:
Sorry Everyone As In book already specified definition which already assume continuity of function to define the derivative.
real-analysis derivatives continuity
 |Â
show 2 more comments
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
I come across Mean value theorem proof which is attached below
Which has an assumption that f has derivative (finite or infinite ) at each interior point and continuity is assumed at endpoint.
In proof assumption used that function f is continuous over whole interval.
But I am not convinced with fact that f has infinite derivative and continuous at that point .
I tried to use definition I get $|f(x)-f(y)|=|x-y|f'(c)$ one side is infinite how to show for continuity.
Also Is it possible to have function which every where derivation infinity?
I think question is wrong As I could not imagine function every where like a verticle line.
But Asking for in case exist?
Any help will be appreciated
Edit:
Sorry Everyone As In book already specified definition which already assume continuity of function to define the derivative.
real-analysis derivatives continuity
2
The theorem statement is certainly problematic. Taking $f(x)=x^2/3$ we have a continuous function with infinite derivative at $x=0$, but there is no solution to $f'(x)=0$ (despite the fact that $f(-1)=f(1)$ and so on). I expect they meant for the "infinite derivatives" to occur only at the endpoints.
â lulu
Aug 28 at 15:25
1
@lulu Is $f'(0)=+infty$ or $-infty$ in your example?
â Hagen von Eitzen
Aug 28 at 15:34
1
Apostol, in his definition of infinite derivative, pre-supposes continuity at the point in question.
â Lord Shark the Unknown
Aug 28 at 15:39
How is "has infinite derivative" defined? Does $xmapsto operatornamesgn(x)$ have ininfite derivative at $0$ because $lim_hto 0fracoperatornamesgn(h)-operatornamesgn(0)h=+infty$ or does the very definition demand more?
â Hagen von Eitzen
Aug 28 at 15:39
1
@LordSharktheUnknown Can you provide Apostol's definition? It seems, from the discussion, that he is using a non-standard definition. That might well be the source of the confusion.
â lulu
Aug 28 at 15:48
 |Â
show 2 more comments
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
I come across Mean value theorem proof which is attached below
Which has an assumption that f has derivative (finite or infinite ) at each interior point and continuity is assumed at endpoint.
In proof assumption used that function f is continuous over whole interval.
But I am not convinced with fact that f has infinite derivative and continuous at that point .
I tried to use definition I get $|f(x)-f(y)|=|x-y|f'(c)$ one side is infinite how to show for continuity.
Also Is it possible to have function which every where derivation infinity?
I think question is wrong As I could not imagine function every where like a verticle line.
But Asking for in case exist?
Any help will be appreciated
Edit:
Sorry Everyone As In book already specified definition which already assume continuity of function to define the derivative.
real-analysis derivatives continuity
I come across Mean value theorem proof which is attached below
Which has an assumption that f has derivative (finite or infinite ) at each interior point and continuity is assumed at endpoint.
In proof assumption used that function f is continuous over whole interval.
But I am not convinced with fact that f has infinite derivative and continuous at that point .
I tried to use definition I get $|f(x)-f(y)|=|x-y|f'(c)$ one side is infinite how to show for continuity.
Also Is it possible to have function which every where derivation infinity?
I think question is wrong As I could not imagine function every where like a verticle line.
But Asking for in case exist?
Any help will be appreciated
Edit:
Sorry Everyone As In book already specified definition which already assume continuity of function to define the derivative.
real-analysis derivatives continuity
edited Aug 28 at 16:18
asked Aug 28 at 15:16
SRJ
1
1
2
The theorem statement is certainly problematic. Taking $f(x)=x^2/3$ we have a continuous function with infinite derivative at $x=0$, but there is no solution to $f'(x)=0$ (despite the fact that $f(-1)=f(1)$ and so on). I expect they meant for the "infinite derivatives" to occur only at the endpoints.
â lulu
Aug 28 at 15:25
1
@lulu Is $f'(0)=+infty$ or $-infty$ in your example?
â Hagen von Eitzen
Aug 28 at 15:34
1
Apostol, in his definition of infinite derivative, pre-supposes continuity at the point in question.
â Lord Shark the Unknown
Aug 28 at 15:39
How is "has infinite derivative" defined? Does $xmapsto operatornamesgn(x)$ have ininfite derivative at $0$ because $lim_hto 0fracoperatornamesgn(h)-operatornamesgn(0)h=+infty$ or does the very definition demand more?
â Hagen von Eitzen
Aug 28 at 15:39
1
@LordSharktheUnknown Can you provide Apostol's definition? It seems, from the discussion, that he is using a non-standard definition. That might well be the source of the confusion.
â lulu
Aug 28 at 15:48
 |Â
show 2 more comments
2
The theorem statement is certainly problematic. Taking $f(x)=x^2/3$ we have a continuous function with infinite derivative at $x=0$, but there is no solution to $f'(x)=0$ (despite the fact that $f(-1)=f(1)$ and so on). I expect they meant for the "infinite derivatives" to occur only at the endpoints.
â lulu
Aug 28 at 15:25
1
@lulu Is $f'(0)=+infty$ or $-infty$ in your example?
â Hagen von Eitzen
Aug 28 at 15:34
1
Apostol, in his definition of infinite derivative, pre-supposes continuity at the point in question.
â Lord Shark the Unknown
Aug 28 at 15:39
How is "has infinite derivative" defined? Does $xmapsto operatornamesgn(x)$ have ininfite derivative at $0$ because $lim_hto 0fracoperatornamesgn(h)-operatornamesgn(0)h=+infty$ or does the very definition demand more?
â Hagen von Eitzen
Aug 28 at 15:39
1
@LordSharktheUnknown Can you provide Apostol's definition? It seems, from the discussion, that he is using a non-standard definition. That might well be the source of the confusion.
â lulu
Aug 28 at 15:48
2
2
The theorem statement is certainly problematic. Taking $f(x)=x^2/3$ we have a continuous function with infinite derivative at $x=0$, but there is no solution to $f'(x)=0$ (despite the fact that $f(-1)=f(1)$ and so on). I expect they meant for the "infinite derivatives" to occur only at the endpoints.
â lulu
Aug 28 at 15:25
The theorem statement is certainly problematic. Taking $f(x)=x^2/3$ we have a continuous function with infinite derivative at $x=0$, but there is no solution to $f'(x)=0$ (despite the fact that $f(-1)=f(1)$ and so on). I expect they meant for the "infinite derivatives" to occur only at the endpoints.
â lulu
Aug 28 at 15:25
1
1
@lulu Is $f'(0)=+infty$ or $-infty$ in your example?
â Hagen von Eitzen
Aug 28 at 15:34
@lulu Is $f'(0)=+infty$ or $-infty$ in your example?
â Hagen von Eitzen
Aug 28 at 15:34
1
1
Apostol, in his definition of infinite derivative, pre-supposes continuity at the point in question.
â Lord Shark the Unknown
Aug 28 at 15:39
Apostol, in his definition of infinite derivative, pre-supposes continuity at the point in question.
â Lord Shark the Unknown
Aug 28 at 15:39
How is "has infinite derivative" defined? Does $xmapsto operatornamesgn(x)$ have ininfite derivative at $0$ because $lim_hto 0fracoperatornamesgn(h)-operatornamesgn(0)h=+infty$ or does the very definition demand more?
â Hagen von Eitzen
Aug 28 at 15:39
How is "has infinite derivative" defined? Does $xmapsto operatornamesgn(x)$ have ininfite derivative at $0$ because $lim_hto 0fracoperatornamesgn(h)-operatornamesgn(0)h=+infty$ or does the very definition demand more?
â Hagen von Eitzen
Aug 28 at 15:39
1
1
@LordSharktheUnknown Can you provide Apostol's definition? It seems, from the discussion, that he is using a non-standard definition. That might well be the source of the confusion.
â lulu
Aug 28 at 15:48
@LordSharktheUnknown Can you provide Apostol's definition? It seems, from the discussion, that he is using a non-standard definition. That might well be the source of the confusion.
â lulu
Aug 28 at 15:48
 |Â
show 2 more comments
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
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up vote
2
down vote
Note: Below I'm assuming the usual definition of infinite derivatives, which is to say that $f'(0)=+infty$ if $lim_hto0(f(h)-f(0))/h=+infty$. I've been told that that's not the definition Apostol uses...
In the usual statement of Rolle's theorem we assume that $f$ is differentiable on $(a,b)$, which is to say it has a finite derivative.
You're right, the existence of an infinite derivative at a point does not imply continuity. And in fact a simple counterexample for that is also a counterexample to the theorem as stated: Define $f:[-1,1]toBbb R$ by
$$f(x)=begincases1-x,&(0<xle 1),
\0,&(x=0),
\-1-x,&(-1le x<0).endcases$$
Then $f$ satisfies all the hypotheses but there is no $x$ with $f'(x)=0$.
And of course it's easy to see where the proof fails: $f$ does not assume a max or min in $(-1,1)$.
What book did you find this nonsense in?
Note the theorem, with the usual definition of the derivative as above, becomes correct if we assume that $f$ is continuous on $[a,b]$.
Tom Apostol's Mathematical Analysis Sir...
â SRJ
Aug 28 at 15:35
According to Apostol's definition, this function does not have $f'(0)=infty$. Apostol's treatment, while eccentric, is sound.
â Lord Shark the Unknown
Aug 28 at 15:40
@LordSharktheUnknown Ok, what's Aposol's definition? The example I gave does satisfy $lim_hto0(f(h)-f(0))/h = +infty$.
â David C. Ullrich
Aug 28 at 15:43
@DavidC.Ullrich Basically it must be continuous before it can has an infinite derivative: the graph has a vertical tangent.
â Lord Shark the Unknown
Aug 28 at 15:44
@LordSharktheUnknown "Basically" schmasically. What's the definition?
â David C. Ullrich
Aug 28 at 15:46
 |Â
show 1 more comment
up vote
0
down vote
It seems that Apostol requires continuity at the points where the derivative becomes infinity. At all the other points, the derivative is a real number, and hence the function is continuous there. It follows that your function is continuous everywhere.
add a comment |Â
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
2
down vote
Note: Below I'm assuming the usual definition of infinite derivatives, which is to say that $f'(0)=+infty$ if $lim_hto0(f(h)-f(0))/h=+infty$. I've been told that that's not the definition Apostol uses...
In the usual statement of Rolle's theorem we assume that $f$ is differentiable on $(a,b)$, which is to say it has a finite derivative.
You're right, the existence of an infinite derivative at a point does not imply continuity. And in fact a simple counterexample for that is also a counterexample to the theorem as stated: Define $f:[-1,1]toBbb R$ by
$$f(x)=begincases1-x,&(0<xle 1),
\0,&(x=0),
\-1-x,&(-1le x<0).endcases$$
Then $f$ satisfies all the hypotheses but there is no $x$ with $f'(x)=0$.
And of course it's easy to see where the proof fails: $f$ does not assume a max or min in $(-1,1)$.
What book did you find this nonsense in?
Note the theorem, with the usual definition of the derivative as above, becomes correct if we assume that $f$ is continuous on $[a,b]$.
Tom Apostol's Mathematical Analysis Sir...
â SRJ
Aug 28 at 15:35
According to Apostol's definition, this function does not have $f'(0)=infty$. Apostol's treatment, while eccentric, is sound.
â Lord Shark the Unknown
Aug 28 at 15:40
@LordSharktheUnknown Ok, what's Aposol's definition? The example I gave does satisfy $lim_hto0(f(h)-f(0))/h = +infty$.
â David C. Ullrich
Aug 28 at 15:43
@DavidC.Ullrich Basically it must be continuous before it can has an infinite derivative: the graph has a vertical tangent.
â Lord Shark the Unknown
Aug 28 at 15:44
@LordSharktheUnknown "Basically" schmasically. What's the definition?
â David C. Ullrich
Aug 28 at 15:46
 |Â
show 1 more comment
up vote
2
down vote
Note: Below I'm assuming the usual definition of infinite derivatives, which is to say that $f'(0)=+infty$ if $lim_hto0(f(h)-f(0))/h=+infty$. I've been told that that's not the definition Apostol uses...
In the usual statement of Rolle's theorem we assume that $f$ is differentiable on $(a,b)$, which is to say it has a finite derivative.
You're right, the existence of an infinite derivative at a point does not imply continuity. And in fact a simple counterexample for that is also a counterexample to the theorem as stated: Define $f:[-1,1]toBbb R$ by
$$f(x)=begincases1-x,&(0<xle 1),
\0,&(x=0),
\-1-x,&(-1le x<0).endcases$$
Then $f$ satisfies all the hypotheses but there is no $x$ with $f'(x)=0$.
And of course it's easy to see where the proof fails: $f$ does not assume a max or min in $(-1,1)$.
What book did you find this nonsense in?
Note the theorem, with the usual definition of the derivative as above, becomes correct if we assume that $f$ is continuous on $[a,b]$.
Tom Apostol's Mathematical Analysis Sir...
â SRJ
Aug 28 at 15:35
According to Apostol's definition, this function does not have $f'(0)=infty$. Apostol's treatment, while eccentric, is sound.
â Lord Shark the Unknown
Aug 28 at 15:40
@LordSharktheUnknown Ok, what's Aposol's definition? The example I gave does satisfy $lim_hto0(f(h)-f(0))/h = +infty$.
â David C. Ullrich
Aug 28 at 15:43
@DavidC.Ullrich Basically it must be continuous before it can has an infinite derivative: the graph has a vertical tangent.
â Lord Shark the Unknown
Aug 28 at 15:44
@LordSharktheUnknown "Basically" schmasically. What's the definition?
â David C. Ullrich
Aug 28 at 15:46
 |Â
show 1 more comment
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
Note: Below I'm assuming the usual definition of infinite derivatives, which is to say that $f'(0)=+infty$ if $lim_hto0(f(h)-f(0))/h=+infty$. I've been told that that's not the definition Apostol uses...
In the usual statement of Rolle's theorem we assume that $f$ is differentiable on $(a,b)$, which is to say it has a finite derivative.
You're right, the existence of an infinite derivative at a point does not imply continuity. And in fact a simple counterexample for that is also a counterexample to the theorem as stated: Define $f:[-1,1]toBbb R$ by
$$f(x)=begincases1-x,&(0<xle 1),
\0,&(x=0),
\-1-x,&(-1le x<0).endcases$$
Then $f$ satisfies all the hypotheses but there is no $x$ with $f'(x)=0$.
And of course it's easy to see where the proof fails: $f$ does not assume a max or min in $(-1,1)$.
What book did you find this nonsense in?
Note the theorem, with the usual definition of the derivative as above, becomes correct if we assume that $f$ is continuous on $[a,b]$.
Note: Below I'm assuming the usual definition of infinite derivatives, which is to say that $f'(0)=+infty$ if $lim_hto0(f(h)-f(0))/h=+infty$. I've been told that that's not the definition Apostol uses...
In the usual statement of Rolle's theorem we assume that $f$ is differentiable on $(a,b)$, which is to say it has a finite derivative.
You're right, the existence of an infinite derivative at a point does not imply continuity. And in fact a simple counterexample for that is also a counterexample to the theorem as stated: Define $f:[-1,1]toBbb R$ by
$$f(x)=begincases1-x,&(0<xle 1),
\0,&(x=0),
\-1-x,&(-1le x<0).endcases$$
Then $f$ satisfies all the hypotheses but there is no $x$ with $f'(x)=0$.
And of course it's easy to see where the proof fails: $f$ does not assume a max or min in $(-1,1)$.
What book did you find this nonsense in?
Note the theorem, with the usual definition of the derivative as above, becomes correct if we assume that $f$ is continuous on $[a,b]$.
edited Aug 28 at 15:45
answered Aug 28 at 15:33
David C. Ullrich
55.6k43787
55.6k43787
Tom Apostol's Mathematical Analysis Sir...
â SRJ
Aug 28 at 15:35
According to Apostol's definition, this function does not have $f'(0)=infty$. Apostol's treatment, while eccentric, is sound.
â Lord Shark the Unknown
Aug 28 at 15:40
@LordSharktheUnknown Ok, what's Aposol's definition? The example I gave does satisfy $lim_hto0(f(h)-f(0))/h = +infty$.
â David C. Ullrich
Aug 28 at 15:43
@DavidC.Ullrich Basically it must be continuous before it can has an infinite derivative: the graph has a vertical tangent.
â Lord Shark the Unknown
Aug 28 at 15:44
@LordSharktheUnknown "Basically" schmasically. What's the definition?
â David C. Ullrich
Aug 28 at 15:46
 |Â
show 1 more comment
Tom Apostol's Mathematical Analysis Sir...
â SRJ
Aug 28 at 15:35
According to Apostol's definition, this function does not have $f'(0)=infty$. Apostol's treatment, while eccentric, is sound.
â Lord Shark the Unknown
Aug 28 at 15:40
@LordSharktheUnknown Ok, what's Aposol's definition? The example I gave does satisfy $lim_hto0(f(h)-f(0))/h = +infty$.
â David C. Ullrich
Aug 28 at 15:43
@DavidC.Ullrich Basically it must be continuous before it can has an infinite derivative: the graph has a vertical tangent.
â Lord Shark the Unknown
Aug 28 at 15:44
@LordSharktheUnknown "Basically" schmasically. What's the definition?
â David C. Ullrich
Aug 28 at 15:46
Tom Apostol's Mathematical Analysis Sir...
â SRJ
Aug 28 at 15:35
Tom Apostol's Mathematical Analysis Sir...
â SRJ
Aug 28 at 15:35
According to Apostol's definition, this function does not have $f'(0)=infty$. Apostol's treatment, while eccentric, is sound.
â Lord Shark the Unknown
Aug 28 at 15:40
According to Apostol's definition, this function does not have $f'(0)=infty$. Apostol's treatment, while eccentric, is sound.
â Lord Shark the Unknown
Aug 28 at 15:40
@LordSharktheUnknown Ok, what's Aposol's definition? The example I gave does satisfy $lim_hto0(f(h)-f(0))/h = +infty$.
â David C. Ullrich
Aug 28 at 15:43
@LordSharktheUnknown Ok, what's Aposol's definition? The example I gave does satisfy $lim_hto0(f(h)-f(0))/h = +infty$.
â David C. Ullrich
Aug 28 at 15:43
@DavidC.Ullrich Basically it must be continuous before it can has an infinite derivative: the graph has a vertical tangent.
â Lord Shark the Unknown
Aug 28 at 15:44
@DavidC.Ullrich Basically it must be continuous before it can has an infinite derivative: the graph has a vertical tangent.
â Lord Shark the Unknown
Aug 28 at 15:44
@LordSharktheUnknown "Basically" schmasically. What's the definition?
â David C. Ullrich
Aug 28 at 15:46
@LordSharktheUnknown "Basically" schmasically. What's the definition?
â David C. Ullrich
Aug 28 at 15:46
 |Â
show 1 more comment
up vote
0
down vote
It seems that Apostol requires continuity at the points where the derivative becomes infinity. At all the other points, the derivative is a real number, and hence the function is continuous there. It follows that your function is continuous everywhere.
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
It seems that Apostol requires continuity at the points where the derivative becomes infinity. At all the other points, the derivative is a real number, and hence the function is continuous there. It follows that your function is continuous everywhere.
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
It seems that Apostol requires continuity at the points where the derivative becomes infinity. At all the other points, the derivative is a real number, and hence the function is continuous there. It follows that your function is continuous everywhere.
It seems that Apostol requires continuity at the points where the derivative becomes infinity. At all the other points, the derivative is a real number, and hence the function is continuous there. It follows that your function is continuous everywhere.
answered Aug 28 at 16:00
Math_QED
6,55931345
6,55931345
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
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2
The theorem statement is certainly problematic. Taking $f(x)=x^2/3$ we have a continuous function with infinite derivative at $x=0$, but there is no solution to $f'(x)=0$ (despite the fact that $f(-1)=f(1)$ and so on). I expect they meant for the "infinite derivatives" to occur only at the endpoints.
â lulu
Aug 28 at 15:25
1
@lulu Is $f'(0)=+infty$ or $-infty$ in your example?
â Hagen von Eitzen
Aug 28 at 15:34
1
Apostol, in his definition of infinite derivative, pre-supposes continuity at the point in question.
â Lord Shark the Unknown
Aug 28 at 15:39
How is "has infinite derivative" defined? Does $xmapsto operatornamesgn(x)$ have ininfite derivative at $0$ because $lim_hto 0fracoperatornamesgn(h)-operatornamesgn(0)h=+infty$ or does the very definition demand more?
â Hagen von Eitzen
Aug 28 at 15:39
1
@LordSharktheUnknown Can you provide Apostol's definition? It seems, from the discussion, that he is using a non-standard definition. That might well be the source of the confusion.
â lulu
Aug 28 at 15:48