Maximum column sum of stochastic matrix
Clash Royale CLAN TAG#URR8PPP
up vote
1
down vote
favorite
For a stochastic matrix $P$ of size $n$, we define
$$|P|_1 := max_j in [n] sum_i in [n]|P(i,j)|$$
i.e., the maximum column sum, which is based on the $|cdot|_1$ matrix norm. Now, although $|P|_infty$ for all stochastic matrices (defined as the maximum row sum) is equal to one by definition, $|P|_1$ can grow as large as $n$. To see this, take the matrix where the first column is all ones and the rest are zeros.
Is it possible to relate $|P|_1$ to other properties of the $n$ state Markov chain represented by this stochastic matrix? It seems like it quantifies how much the chain is attracted to a particular state.
Is it true that $fracP^kk leq |P|_1$ for all $k$ ?
Is it true that $fracP^kk^2 leq |P|_1$ for all $k$ ?
Has $|P|_1$ be considered in any way in the literature ?
So far:
- I don't think it can be related to its mixing time as I can seem to be able to generate arbitrary slow mixing chains with the same value for $|P|_1$.
- It makes sense that it stabilizes at some point when $k$ increases because in the long run the rows of $P^k$ are all $pi$ (stationary distribution), so that I am expecting $|P^k|_1 rightarrow n cdot max_i pi_i$. I actually have been able to plot both oscillating and non-oscillating cases around that value for $k$ increasing.
- Question 2 has been disproven by @dEmigOd.
- I have a program running for trying to find counter examples for question 3, which has been unsuccessful so far (generating random rows from a Dirichlet distribution)
matrices norm markov-chains stochastic-matrices
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
favorite
For a stochastic matrix $P$ of size $n$, we define
$$|P|_1 := max_j in [n] sum_i in [n]|P(i,j)|$$
i.e., the maximum column sum, which is based on the $|cdot|_1$ matrix norm. Now, although $|P|_infty$ for all stochastic matrices (defined as the maximum row sum) is equal to one by definition, $|P|_1$ can grow as large as $n$. To see this, take the matrix where the first column is all ones and the rest are zeros.
Is it possible to relate $|P|_1$ to other properties of the $n$ state Markov chain represented by this stochastic matrix? It seems like it quantifies how much the chain is attracted to a particular state.
Is it true that $fracP^kk leq |P|_1$ for all $k$ ?
Is it true that $fracP^kk^2 leq |P|_1$ for all $k$ ?
Has $|P|_1$ be considered in any way in the literature ?
So far:
- I don't think it can be related to its mixing time as I can seem to be able to generate arbitrary slow mixing chains with the same value for $|P|_1$.
- It makes sense that it stabilizes at some point when $k$ increases because in the long run the rows of $P^k$ are all $pi$ (stationary distribution), so that I am expecting $|P^k|_1 rightarrow n cdot max_i pi_i$. I actually have been able to plot both oscillating and non-oscillating cases around that value for $k$ increasing.
- Question 2 has been disproven by @dEmigOd.
- I have a program running for trying to find counter examples for question 3, which has been unsuccessful so far (generating random rows from a Dirichlet distribution)
matrices norm markov-chains stochastic-matrices
Please provide some context for your questions, calculations you have made, or any other information you have. Just throwing questions around will probably get them closed with no answers.
â uniquesolution
Aug 13 at 8:25
@uniquesolution Added more information as per requested.
â ippiki-ookami
Aug 13 at 11:26
Can you please limit yourself to just one question per post?
â Xander Henderson
Aug 14 at 0:08
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
favorite
up vote
1
down vote
favorite
For a stochastic matrix $P$ of size $n$, we define
$$|P|_1 := max_j in [n] sum_i in [n]|P(i,j)|$$
i.e., the maximum column sum, which is based on the $|cdot|_1$ matrix norm. Now, although $|P|_infty$ for all stochastic matrices (defined as the maximum row sum) is equal to one by definition, $|P|_1$ can grow as large as $n$. To see this, take the matrix where the first column is all ones and the rest are zeros.
Is it possible to relate $|P|_1$ to other properties of the $n$ state Markov chain represented by this stochastic matrix? It seems like it quantifies how much the chain is attracted to a particular state.
Is it true that $fracP^kk leq |P|_1$ for all $k$ ?
Is it true that $fracP^kk^2 leq |P|_1$ for all $k$ ?
Has $|P|_1$ be considered in any way in the literature ?
So far:
- I don't think it can be related to its mixing time as I can seem to be able to generate arbitrary slow mixing chains with the same value for $|P|_1$.
- It makes sense that it stabilizes at some point when $k$ increases because in the long run the rows of $P^k$ are all $pi$ (stationary distribution), so that I am expecting $|P^k|_1 rightarrow n cdot max_i pi_i$. I actually have been able to plot both oscillating and non-oscillating cases around that value for $k$ increasing.
- Question 2 has been disproven by @dEmigOd.
- I have a program running for trying to find counter examples for question 3, which has been unsuccessful so far (generating random rows from a Dirichlet distribution)
matrices norm markov-chains stochastic-matrices
For a stochastic matrix $P$ of size $n$, we define
$$|P|_1 := max_j in [n] sum_i in [n]|P(i,j)|$$
i.e., the maximum column sum, which is based on the $|cdot|_1$ matrix norm. Now, although $|P|_infty$ for all stochastic matrices (defined as the maximum row sum) is equal to one by definition, $|P|_1$ can grow as large as $n$. To see this, take the matrix where the first column is all ones and the rest are zeros.
Is it possible to relate $|P|_1$ to other properties of the $n$ state Markov chain represented by this stochastic matrix? It seems like it quantifies how much the chain is attracted to a particular state.
Is it true that $fracP^kk leq |P|_1$ for all $k$ ?
Is it true that $fracP^kk^2 leq |P|_1$ for all $k$ ?
Has $|P|_1$ be considered in any way in the literature ?
So far:
- I don't think it can be related to its mixing time as I can seem to be able to generate arbitrary slow mixing chains with the same value for $|P|_1$.
- It makes sense that it stabilizes at some point when $k$ increases because in the long run the rows of $P^k$ are all $pi$ (stationary distribution), so that I am expecting $|P^k|_1 rightarrow n cdot max_i pi_i$. I actually have been able to plot both oscillating and non-oscillating cases around that value for $k$ increasing.
- Question 2 has been disproven by @dEmigOd.
- I have a program running for trying to find counter examples for question 3, which has been unsuccessful so far (generating random rows from a Dirichlet distribution)
matrices norm markov-chains stochastic-matrices
edited Aug 13 at 11:25
asked Aug 13 at 7:35
ippiki-ookami
370217
370217
Please provide some context for your questions, calculations you have made, or any other information you have. Just throwing questions around will probably get them closed with no answers.
â uniquesolution
Aug 13 at 8:25
@uniquesolution Added more information as per requested.
â ippiki-ookami
Aug 13 at 11:26
Can you please limit yourself to just one question per post?
â Xander Henderson
Aug 14 at 0:08
add a comment |Â
Please provide some context for your questions, calculations you have made, or any other information you have. Just throwing questions around will probably get them closed with no answers.
â uniquesolution
Aug 13 at 8:25
@uniquesolution Added more information as per requested.
â ippiki-ookami
Aug 13 at 11:26
Can you please limit yourself to just one question per post?
â Xander Henderson
Aug 14 at 0:08
Please provide some context for your questions, calculations you have made, or any other information you have. Just throwing questions around will probably get them closed with no answers.
â uniquesolution
Aug 13 at 8:25
Please provide some context for your questions, calculations you have made, or any other information you have. Just throwing questions around will probably get them closed with no answers.
â uniquesolution
Aug 13 at 8:25
@uniquesolution Added more information as per requested.
â ippiki-ookami
Aug 13 at 11:26
@uniquesolution Added more information as per requested.
â ippiki-ookami
Aug 13 at 11:26
Can you please limit yourself to just one question per post?
â Xander Henderson
Aug 14 at 0:08
Can you please limit yourself to just one question per post?
â Xander Henderson
Aug 14 at 0:08
add a comment |Â
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
up vote
1
down vote
accepted
- This is not true.
Let
$$
P =
beginpmatrix
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
0 & 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
0 & 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 \
endpmatrix
$$
Then,
$$
P^2 =
beginpmatrix
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
endpmatrix$$
essentially every state will end in state $1$ in two steps.
We have, $lVert P rVert_1 = 3$, but $lVert P^2 rVert_1 = 7 > 2 cdot lVert P rVert_1$.
- I suppose, it is not that difficult to imagine a chain with $lVert P rVert_1 = sqrtn$, while $lVert P^2 rVert_1 = n$. Was it attracted to some state more than another chain, with $lVert P rVert_1 = fracn2$ and $lVert P^2 rVert_1 = n$?
Update:
As per new question regarding $fraclVert P^k rVert_1k^2 leq lVert P rVert_1$.
Proceed in the same spirit, Now a $25 times 25$ matrix will work. Send states $1-5$ to state $1$, states $6 - 10$ to state $2$, etc. In $2$ steps every state end up in state $1$. $lVert P rVert_1 = 5$, but $lVert P^2 rVert_1 = 25$. As I previously mentioned you can play with this until $sqrtn$.
Could it be $fraclVert P^sqrtn + 1 rVert_1sqrtn + 1 geq lVert P rVert_1$?
About 2. I agree. Although somewhat rare, it can happen as confirmed by numerical simulation. I have not been able to generate any example when dividing by $k^2$ yet.
â ippiki-ookami
Aug 13 at 11:28
New question 3 was actually answered for 1. part!
â dEmigOd
Aug 13 at 12:01
add a comment |Â
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
1
down vote
accepted
- This is not true.
Let
$$
P =
beginpmatrix
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
0 & 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
0 & 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 \
endpmatrix
$$
Then,
$$
P^2 =
beginpmatrix
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
endpmatrix$$
essentially every state will end in state $1$ in two steps.
We have, $lVert P rVert_1 = 3$, but $lVert P^2 rVert_1 = 7 > 2 cdot lVert P rVert_1$.
- I suppose, it is not that difficult to imagine a chain with $lVert P rVert_1 = sqrtn$, while $lVert P^2 rVert_1 = n$. Was it attracted to some state more than another chain, with $lVert P rVert_1 = fracn2$ and $lVert P^2 rVert_1 = n$?
Update:
As per new question regarding $fraclVert P^k rVert_1k^2 leq lVert P rVert_1$.
Proceed in the same spirit, Now a $25 times 25$ matrix will work. Send states $1-5$ to state $1$, states $6 - 10$ to state $2$, etc. In $2$ steps every state end up in state $1$. $lVert P rVert_1 = 5$, but $lVert P^2 rVert_1 = 25$. As I previously mentioned you can play with this until $sqrtn$.
Could it be $fraclVert P^sqrtn + 1 rVert_1sqrtn + 1 geq lVert P rVert_1$?
About 2. I agree. Although somewhat rare, it can happen as confirmed by numerical simulation. I have not been able to generate any example when dividing by $k^2$ yet.
â ippiki-ookami
Aug 13 at 11:28
New question 3 was actually answered for 1. part!
â dEmigOd
Aug 13 at 12:01
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
accepted
- This is not true.
Let
$$
P =
beginpmatrix
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
0 & 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
0 & 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 \
endpmatrix
$$
Then,
$$
P^2 =
beginpmatrix
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
endpmatrix$$
essentially every state will end in state $1$ in two steps.
We have, $lVert P rVert_1 = 3$, but $lVert P^2 rVert_1 = 7 > 2 cdot lVert P rVert_1$.
- I suppose, it is not that difficult to imagine a chain with $lVert P rVert_1 = sqrtn$, while $lVert P^2 rVert_1 = n$. Was it attracted to some state more than another chain, with $lVert P rVert_1 = fracn2$ and $lVert P^2 rVert_1 = n$?
Update:
As per new question regarding $fraclVert P^k rVert_1k^2 leq lVert P rVert_1$.
Proceed in the same spirit, Now a $25 times 25$ matrix will work. Send states $1-5$ to state $1$, states $6 - 10$ to state $2$, etc. In $2$ steps every state end up in state $1$. $lVert P rVert_1 = 5$, but $lVert P^2 rVert_1 = 25$. As I previously mentioned you can play with this until $sqrtn$.
Could it be $fraclVert P^sqrtn + 1 rVert_1sqrtn + 1 geq lVert P rVert_1$?
About 2. I agree. Although somewhat rare, it can happen as confirmed by numerical simulation. I have not been able to generate any example when dividing by $k^2$ yet.
â ippiki-ookami
Aug 13 at 11:28
New question 3 was actually answered for 1. part!
â dEmigOd
Aug 13 at 12:01
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
accepted
up vote
1
down vote
accepted
- This is not true.
Let
$$
P =
beginpmatrix
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
0 & 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
0 & 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 \
endpmatrix
$$
Then,
$$
P^2 =
beginpmatrix
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
endpmatrix$$
essentially every state will end in state $1$ in two steps.
We have, $lVert P rVert_1 = 3$, but $lVert P^2 rVert_1 = 7 > 2 cdot lVert P rVert_1$.
- I suppose, it is not that difficult to imagine a chain with $lVert P rVert_1 = sqrtn$, while $lVert P^2 rVert_1 = n$. Was it attracted to some state more than another chain, with $lVert P rVert_1 = fracn2$ and $lVert P^2 rVert_1 = n$?
Update:
As per new question regarding $fraclVert P^k rVert_1k^2 leq lVert P rVert_1$.
Proceed in the same spirit, Now a $25 times 25$ matrix will work. Send states $1-5$ to state $1$, states $6 - 10$ to state $2$, etc. In $2$ steps every state end up in state $1$. $lVert P rVert_1 = 5$, but $lVert P^2 rVert_1 = 25$. As I previously mentioned you can play with this until $sqrtn$.
Could it be $fraclVert P^sqrtn + 1 rVert_1sqrtn + 1 geq lVert P rVert_1$?
- This is not true.
Let
$$
P =
beginpmatrix
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
0 & 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
0 & 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 \
endpmatrix
$$
Then,
$$
P^2 =
beginpmatrix
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0 \
endpmatrix$$
essentially every state will end in state $1$ in two steps.
We have, $lVert P rVert_1 = 3$, but $lVert P^2 rVert_1 = 7 > 2 cdot lVert P rVert_1$.
- I suppose, it is not that difficult to imagine a chain with $lVert P rVert_1 = sqrtn$, while $lVert P^2 rVert_1 = n$. Was it attracted to some state more than another chain, with $lVert P rVert_1 = fracn2$ and $lVert P^2 rVert_1 = n$?
Update:
As per new question regarding $fraclVert P^k rVert_1k^2 leq lVert P rVert_1$.
Proceed in the same spirit, Now a $25 times 25$ matrix will work. Send states $1-5$ to state $1$, states $6 - 10$ to state $2$, etc. In $2$ steps every state end up in state $1$. $lVert P rVert_1 = 5$, but $lVert P^2 rVert_1 = 25$. As I previously mentioned you can play with this until $sqrtn$.
Could it be $fraclVert P^sqrtn + 1 rVert_1sqrtn + 1 geq lVert P rVert_1$?
edited Aug 13 at 12:20
answered Aug 13 at 10:12
dEmigOd
1,3121512
1,3121512
About 2. I agree. Although somewhat rare, it can happen as confirmed by numerical simulation. I have not been able to generate any example when dividing by $k^2$ yet.
â ippiki-ookami
Aug 13 at 11:28
New question 3 was actually answered for 1. part!
â dEmigOd
Aug 13 at 12:01
add a comment |Â
About 2. I agree. Although somewhat rare, it can happen as confirmed by numerical simulation. I have not been able to generate any example when dividing by $k^2$ yet.
â ippiki-ookami
Aug 13 at 11:28
New question 3 was actually answered for 1. part!
â dEmigOd
Aug 13 at 12:01
About 2. I agree. Although somewhat rare, it can happen as confirmed by numerical simulation. I have not been able to generate any example when dividing by $k^2$ yet.
â ippiki-ookami
Aug 13 at 11:28
About 2. I agree. Although somewhat rare, it can happen as confirmed by numerical simulation. I have not been able to generate any example when dividing by $k^2$ yet.
â ippiki-ookami
Aug 13 at 11:28
New question 3 was actually answered for 1. part!
â dEmigOd
Aug 13 at 12:01
New question 3 was actually answered for 1. part!
â dEmigOd
Aug 13 at 12:01
add a comment |Â
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f2881100%2fmaximum-column-sum-of-stochastic-matrix%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Please provide some context for your questions, calculations you have made, or any other information you have. Just throwing questions around will probably get them closed with no answers.
â uniquesolution
Aug 13 at 8:25
@uniquesolution Added more information as per requested.
â ippiki-ookami
Aug 13 at 11:26
Can you please limit yourself to just one question per post?
â Xander Henderson
Aug 14 at 0:08