Does faithfull action of abelian group always has regular orbit?
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Good afternoon. I recall that a regular orbit is the orbit of the size equal to the acting group. My question is motivated by the following post. I don't understand why the faithfull action of abelian group always has regular orbit? (The last part of solution in the mentioned post). I will be gratefull for hints and expalanations.
abstract-algebra group-theory finite-groups proof-explanation group-actions
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up vote
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Good afternoon. I recall that a regular orbit is the orbit of the size equal to the acting group. My question is motivated by the following post. I don't understand why the faithfull action of abelian group always has regular orbit? (The last part of solution in the mentioned post). I will be gratefull for hints and expalanations.
abstract-algebra group-theory finite-groups proof-explanation group-actions
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
up vote
3
down vote
favorite
Good afternoon. I recall that a regular orbit is the orbit of the size equal to the acting group. My question is motivated by the following post. I don't understand why the faithfull action of abelian group always has regular orbit? (The last part of solution in the mentioned post). I will be gratefull for hints and expalanations.
abstract-algebra group-theory finite-groups proof-explanation group-actions
Good afternoon. I recall that a regular orbit is the orbit of the size equal to the acting group. My question is motivated by the following post. I don't understand why the faithfull action of abelian group always has regular orbit? (The last part of solution in the mentioned post). I will be gratefull for hints and expalanations.
abstract-algebra group-theory finite-groups proof-explanation group-actions
edited Jan 8 at 8:08
asked Jan 8 at 8:02
Mikhail Goltvanitsa
593314
593314
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2 Answers
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Let me correct some definitions.
The action of $G$ on $X$ is faithful if the only element of $G$ that fixes all points of $X$ is the identity element, $1in G$.
The action of $G$ on $X$ is regular if the action is transitive and the only element of $G$ that fixes at least one point of $X$ is $1in G$.
It is not true that a faithful action of an abelian group is regular. For example, is $sigma = (1;2)(3;4;5)$, then $G=langle sigmarangle$ acts faithfully but not regularly on $X = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5$.
What is true is that, if $G$ is abelian, any faithful transitive action is regular. For this you must show that if $G$ acts transitively on $X$ and $gin G$ has at least one fixed point in $X$, then it fixes all elements of $X$. The argument goes like this: if $gx_0=x_0$ for some $x_0in X$, then for any $hin G$ we have $g(hx_0)=h(gx_0)=hx_0$, so $hx_0$ is a fixed point of $g$. Thus $g$ sixes all points of $Gx_0=X$. Thus it is reasonable to say that a faithful orbit of an abelian group is regular.
Thank you, Keith. But we don't speak about regular action. We want to find regular orbit of action. And following M.Isaacs book Finite Group Theory this is orbit with the size equal to the acting group.
â Mikhail Goltvanitsa
Jan 8 at 8:27
1
Try to look at it from the perspective of the regular orbit. The orbit doesn't know that the rest of the set exists, and the group action is not gonna tell it that: the group just maps the orbit into itself. So from the orbit's perspective, the action on the group on it IS a regular action.
â Vincent
Jan 8 at 8:31
1
@MikhailGoltvanitsa: I am traveling and don't have Isaac's book with me, but the definition you are using for "regular" is not the correct one. The one I gave is the correct one. (However your definition is equivalent to the correct one if $G$ is finite.)
â Keith Kearnes
Jan 8 at 8:38
Thank you, Keith. I understand. But in the mentioned problem we have that $<sigma>$ acts faithfully on the set $lambda_i cup lambda_j$ equal to the union of TWO orbits. And acts transitively on every orbit. So we can not argue that the action is faithfull on some orbit. Is not so?
â Mikhail Goltvanitsa
Jan 8 at 8:43
1
No, see the example in my 4rth paragraph. A cyclic group can act faithfully on the union of two orbits without acting faithfully on either one.
â Keith Kearnes
Jan 8 at 8:45
 |Â
show 3 more comments
up vote
2
down vote
More of a long comment actually:
This is not true. Consider the subgroup $(1 2), (3 4), (1 2)(3 4) subset S_4$, which is isomorphic to the Klein four group. It is abelian and acts faithfully on the set $1, 2, 3, 4$ of four elements but does not have a regular orbit. I think the other post explicitly uses that the group under consideration is not just abelian but also cyclic, but we have to think a bit more about if and how that would give us the desired property.
UPDATE: It seems that the 'other post' I am referring to has since been deleted. Is that correct? Otherwise my post doesn't make much sense.
"I think the other post explicitly uses that the group under consideration is not just abelian but also cyclic" -- No. The problem is that the other post is not correct. If you look at my 4rth paragraph you will see that a cyclic group can act faithfully but not regularly.
â Keith Kearnes
Jan 8 at 8:43
Yes I noticed. I had forgotten about how products of two cyclic groups can nevertheless be cyclic again themselves.
â Vincent
Jan 8 at 8:45
1
Thank you very much, Vincent.
â Mikhail Goltvanitsa
Jan 8 at 8:50
add a comment |Â
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
2
down vote
accepted
Let me correct some definitions.
The action of $G$ on $X$ is faithful if the only element of $G$ that fixes all points of $X$ is the identity element, $1in G$.
The action of $G$ on $X$ is regular if the action is transitive and the only element of $G$ that fixes at least one point of $X$ is $1in G$.
It is not true that a faithful action of an abelian group is regular. For example, is $sigma = (1;2)(3;4;5)$, then $G=langle sigmarangle$ acts faithfully but not regularly on $X = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5$.
What is true is that, if $G$ is abelian, any faithful transitive action is regular. For this you must show that if $G$ acts transitively on $X$ and $gin G$ has at least one fixed point in $X$, then it fixes all elements of $X$. The argument goes like this: if $gx_0=x_0$ for some $x_0in X$, then for any $hin G$ we have $g(hx_0)=h(gx_0)=hx_0$, so $hx_0$ is a fixed point of $g$. Thus $g$ sixes all points of $Gx_0=X$. Thus it is reasonable to say that a faithful orbit of an abelian group is regular.
Thank you, Keith. But we don't speak about regular action. We want to find regular orbit of action. And following M.Isaacs book Finite Group Theory this is orbit with the size equal to the acting group.
â Mikhail Goltvanitsa
Jan 8 at 8:27
1
Try to look at it from the perspective of the regular orbit. The orbit doesn't know that the rest of the set exists, and the group action is not gonna tell it that: the group just maps the orbit into itself. So from the orbit's perspective, the action on the group on it IS a regular action.
â Vincent
Jan 8 at 8:31
1
@MikhailGoltvanitsa: I am traveling and don't have Isaac's book with me, but the definition you are using for "regular" is not the correct one. The one I gave is the correct one. (However your definition is equivalent to the correct one if $G$ is finite.)
â Keith Kearnes
Jan 8 at 8:38
Thank you, Keith. I understand. But in the mentioned problem we have that $<sigma>$ acts faithfully on the set $lambda_i cup lambda_j$ equal to the union of TWO orbits. And acts transitively on every orbit. So we can not argue that the action is faithfull on some orbit. Is not so?
â Mikhail Goltvanitsa
Jan 8 at 8:43
1
No, see the example in my 4rth paragraph. A cyclic group can act faithfully on the union of two orbits without acting faithfully on either one.
â Keith Kearnes
Jan 8 at 8:45
 |Â
show 3 more comments
up vote
2
down vote
accepted
Let me correct some definitions.
The action of $G$ on $X$ is faithful if the only element of $G$ that fixes all points of $X$ is the identity element, $1in G$.
The action of $G$ on $X$ is regular if the action is transitive and the only element of $G$ that fixes at least one point of $X$ is $1in G$.
It is not true that a faithful action of an abelian group is regular. For example, is $sigma = (1;2)(3;4;5)$, then $G=langle sigmarangle$ acts faithfully but not regularly on $X = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5$.
What is true is that, if $G$ is abelian, any faithful transitive action is regular. For this you must show that if $G$ acts transitively on $X$ and $gin G$ has at least one fixed point in $X$, then it fixes all elements of $X$. The argument goes like this: if $gx_0=x_0$ for some $x_0in X$, then for any $hin G$ we have $g(hx_0)=h(gx_0)=hx_0$, so $hx_0$ is a fixed point of $g$. Thus $g$ sixes all points of $Gx_0=X$. Thus it is reasonable to say that a faithful orbit of an abelian group is regular.
Thank you, Keith. But we don't speak about regular action. We want to find regular orbit of action. And following M.Isaacs book Finite Group Theory this is orbit with the size equal to the acting group.
â Mikhail Goltvanitsa
Jan 8 at 8:27
1
Try to look at it from the perspective of the regular orbit. The orbit doesn't know that the rest of the set exists, and the group action is not gonna tell it that: the group just maps the orbit into itself. So from the orbit's perspective, the action on the group on it IS a regular action.
â Vincent
Jan 8 at 8:31
1
@MikhailGoltvanitsa: I am traveling and don't have Isaac's book with me, but the definition you are using for "regular" is not the correct one. The one I gave is the correct one. (However your definition is equivalent to the correct one if $G$ is finite.)
â Keith Kearnes
Jan 8 at 8:38
Thank you, Keith. I understand. But in the mentioned problem we have that $<sigma>$ acts faithfully on the set $lambda_i cup lambda_j$ equal to the union of TWO orbits. And acts transitively on every orbit. So we can not argue that the action is faithfull on some orbit. Is not so?
â Mikhail Goltvanitsa
Jan 8 at 8:43
1
No, see the example in my 4rth paragraph. A cyclic group can act faithfully on the union of two orbits without acting faithfully on either one.
â Keith Kearnes
Jan 8 at 8:45
 |Â
show 3 more comments
up vote
2
down vote
accepted
up vote
2
down vote
accepted
Let me correct some definitions.
The action of $G$ on $X$ is faithful if the only element of $G$ that fixes all points of $X$ is the identity element, $1in G$.
The action of $G$ on $X$ is regular if the action is transitive and the only element of $G$ that fixes at least one point of $X$ is $1in G$.
It is not true that a faithful action of an abelian group is regular. For example, is $sigma = (1;2)(3;4;5)$, then $G=langle sigmarangle$ acts faithfully but not regularly on $X = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5$.
What is true is that, if $G$ is abelian, any faithful transitive action is regular. For this you must show that if $G$ acts transitively on $X$ and $gin G$ has at least one fixed point in $X$, then it fixes all elements of $X$. The argument goes like this: if $gx_0=x_0$ for some $x_0in X$, then for any $hin G$ we have $g(hx_0)=h(gx_0)=hx_0$, so $hx_0$ is a fixed point of $g$. Thus $g$ sixes all points of $Gx_0=X$. Thus it is reasonable to say that a faithful orbit of an abelian group is regular.
Let me correct some definitions.
The action of $G$ on $X$ is faithful if the only element of $G$ that fixes all points of $X$ is the identity element, $1in G$.
The action of $G$ on $X$ is regular if the action is transitive and the only element of $G$ that fixes at least one point of $X$ is $1in G$.
It is not true that a faithful action of an abelian group is regular. For example, is $sigma = (1;2)(3;4;5)$, then $G=langle sigmarangle$ acts faithfully but not regularly on $X = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5$.
What is true is that, if $G$ is abelian, any faithful transitive action is regular. For this you must show that if $G$ acts transitively on $X$ and $gin G$ has at least one fixed point in $X$, then it fixes all elements of $X$. The argument goes like this: if $gx_0=x_0$ for some $x_0in X$, then for any $hin G$ we have $g(hx_0)=h(gx_0)=hx_0$, so $hx_0$ is a fixed point of $g$. Thus $g$ sixes all points of $Gx_0=X$. Thus it is reasonable to say that a faithful orbit of an abelian group is regular.
edited Jan 8 at 8:27
answered Jan 8 at 8:23
Keith Kearnes
5,1641626
5,1641626
Thank you, Keith. But we don't speak about regular action. We want to find regular orbit of action. And following M.Isaacs book Finite Group Theory this is orbit with the size equal to the acting group.
â Mikhail Goltvanitsa
Jan 8 at 8:27
1
Try to look at it from the perspective of the regular orbit. The orbit doesn't know that the rest of the set exists, and the group action is not gonna tell it that: the group just maps the orbit into itself. So from the orbit's perspective, the action on the group on it IS a regular action.
â Vincent
Jan 8 at 8:31
1
@MikhailGoltvanitsa: I am traveling and don't have Isaac's book with me, but the definition you are using for "regular" is not the correct one. The one I gave is the correct one. (However your definition is equivalent to the correct one if $G$ is finite.)
â Keith Kearnes
Jan 8 at 8:38
Thank you, Keith. I understand. But in the mentioned problem we have that $<sigma>$ acts faithfully on the set $lambda_i cup lambda_j$ equal to the union of TWO orbits. And acts transitively on every orbit. So we can not argue that the action is faithfull on some orbit. Is not so?
â Mikhail Goltvanitsa
Jan 8 at 8:43
1
No, see the example in my 4rth paragraph. A cyclic group can act faithfully on the union of two orbits without acting faithfully on either one.
â Keith Kearnes
Jan 8 at 8:45
 |Â
show 3 more comments
Thank you, Keith. But we don't speak about regular action. We want to find regular orbit of action. And following M.Isaacs book Finite Group Theory this is orbit with the size equal to the acting group.
â Mikhail Goltvanitsa
Jan 8 at 8:27
1
Try to look at it from the perspective of the regular orbit. The orbit doesn't know that the rest of the set exists, and the group action is not gonna tell it that: the group just maps the orbit into itself. So from the orbit's perspective, the action on the group on it IS a regular action.
â Vincent
Jan 8 at 8:31
1
@MikhailGoltvanitsa: I am traveling and don't have Isaac's book with me, but the definition you are using for "regular" is not the correct one. The one I gave is the correct one. (However your definition is equivalent to the correct one if $G$ is finite.)
â Keith Kearnes
Jan 8 at 8:38
Thank you, Keith. I understand. But in the mentioned problem we have that $<sigma>$ acts faithfully on the set $lambda_i cup lambda_j$ equal to the union of TWO orbits. And acts transitively on every orbit. So we can not argue that the action is faithfull on some orbit. Is not so?
â Mikhail Goltvanitsa
Jan 8 at 8:43
1
No, see the example in my 4rth paragraph. A cyclic group can act faithfully on the union of two orbits without acting faithfully on either one.
â Keith Kearnes
Jan 8 at 8:45
Thank you, Keith. But we don't speak about regular action. We want to find regular orbit of action. And following M.Isaacs book Finite Group Theory this is orbit with the size equal to the acting group.
â Mikhail Goltvanitsa
Jan 8 at 8:27
Thank you, Keith. But we don't speak about regular action. We want to find regular orbit of action. And following M.Isaacs book Finite Group Theory this is orbit with the size equal to the acting group.
â Mikhail Goltvanitsa
Jan 8 at 8:27
1
1
Try to look at it from the perspective of the regular orbit. The orbit doesn't know that the rest of the set exists, and the group action is not gonna tell it that: the group just maps the orbit into itself. So from the orbit's perspective, the action on the group on it IS a regular action.
â Vincent
Jan 8 at 8:31
Try to look at it from the perspective of the regular orbit. The orbit doesn't know that the rest of the set exists, and the group action is not gonna tell it that: the group just maps the orbit into itself. So from the orbit's perspective, the action on the group on it IS a regular action.
â Vincent
Jan 8 at 8:31
1
1
@MikhailGoltvanitsa: I am traveling and don't have Isaac's book with me, but the definition you are using for "regular" is not the correct one. The one I gave is the correct one. (However your definition is equivalent to the correct one if $G$ is finite.)
â Keith Kearnes
Jan 8 at 8:38
@MikhailGoltvanitsa: I am traveling and don't have Isaac's book with me, but the definition you are using for "regular" is not the correct one. The one I gave is the correct one. (However your definition is equivalent to the correct one if $G$ is finite.)
â Keith Kearnes
Jan 8 at 8:38
Thank you, Keith. I understand. But in the mentioned problem we have that $<sigma>$ acts faithfully on the set $lambda_i cup lambda_j$ equal to the union of TWO orbits. And acts transitively on every orbit. So we can not argue that the action is faithfull on some orbit. Is not so?
â Mikhail Goltvanitsa
Jan 8 at 8:43
Thank you, Keith. I understand. But in the mentioned problem we have that $<sigma>$ acts faithfully on the set $lambda_i cup lambda_j$ equal to the union of TWO orbits. And acts transitively on every orbit. So we can not argue that the action is faithfull on some orbit. Is not so?
â Mikhail Goltvanitsa
Jan 8 at 8:43
1
1
No, see the example in my 4rth paragraph. A cyclic group can act faithfully on the union of two orbits without acting faithfully on either one.
â Keith Kearnes
Jan 8 at 8:45
No, see the example in my 4rth paragraph. A cyclic group can act faithfully on the union of two orbits without acting faithfully on either one.
â Keith Kearnes
Jan 8 at 8:45
 |Â
show 3 more comments
up vote
2
down vote
More of a long comment actually:
This is not true. Consider the subgroup $(1 2), (3 4), (1 2)(3 4) subset S_4$, which is isomorphic to the Klein four group. It is abelian and acts faithfully on the set $1, 2, 3, 4$ of four elements but does not have a regular orbit. I think the other post explicitly uses that the group under consideration is not just abelian but also cyclic, but we have to think a bit more about if and how that would give us the desired property.
UPDATE: It seems that the 'other post' I am referring to has since been deleted. Is that correct? Otherwise my post doesn't make much sense.
"I think the other post explicitly uses that the group under consideration is not just abelian but also cyclic" -- No. The problem is that the other post is not correct. If you look at my 4rth paragraph you will see that a cyclic group can act faithfully but not regularly.
â Keith Kearnes
Jan 8 at 8:43
Yes I noticed. I had forgotten about how products of two cyclic groups can nevertheless be cyclic again themselves.
â Vincent
Jan 8 at 8:45
1
Thank you very much, Vincent.
â Mikhail Goltvanitsa
Jan 8 at 8:50
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
More of a long comment actually:
This is not true. Consider the subgroup $(1 2), (3 4), (1 2)(3 4) subset S_4$, which is isomorphic to the Klein four group. It is abelian and acts faithfully on the set $1, 2, 3, 4$ of four elements but does not have a regular orbit. I think the other post explicitly uses that the group under consideration is not just abelian but also cyclic, but we have to think a bit more about if and how that would give us the desired property.
UPDATE: It seems that the 'other post' I am referring to has since been deleted. Is that correct? Otherwise my post doesn't make much sense.
"I think the other post explicitly uses that the group under consideration is not just abelian but also cyclic" -- No. The problem is that the other post is not correct. If you look at my 4rth paragraph you will see that a cyclic group can act faithfully but not regularly.
â Keith Kearnes
Jan 8 at 8:43
Yes I noticed. I had forgotten about how products of two cyclic groups can nevertheless be cyclic again themselves.
â Vincent
Jan 8 at 8:45
1
Thank you very much, Vincent.
â Mikhail Goltvanitsa
Jan 8 at 8:50
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
More of a long comment actually:
This is not true. Consider the subgroup $(1 2), (3 4), (1 2)(3 4) subset S_4$, which is isomorphic to the Klein four group. It is abelian and acts faithfully on the set $1, 2, 3, 4$ of four elements but does not have a regular orbit. I think the other post explicitly uses that the group under consideration is not just abelian but also cyclic, but we have to think a bit more about if and how that would give us the desired property.
UPDATE: It seems that the 'other post' I am referring to has since been deleted. Is that correct? Otherwise my post doesn't make much sense.
More of a long comment actually:
This is not true. Consider the subgroup $(1 2), (3 4), (1 2)(3 4) subset S_4$, which is isomorphic to the Klein four group. It is abelian and acts faithfully on the set $1, 2, 3, 4$ of four elements but does not have a regular orbit. I think the other post explicitly uses that the group under consideration is not just abelian but also cyclic, but we have to think a bit more about if and how that would give us the desired property.
UPDATE: It seems that the 'other post' I am referring to has since been deleted. Is that correct? Otherwise my post doesn't make much sense.
edited Aug 13 at 8:42
answered Jan 8 at 8:18
Vincent
3,3071127
3,3071127
"I think the other post explicitly uses that the group under consideration is not just abelian but also cyclic" -- No. The problem is that the other post is not correct. If you look at my 4rth paragraph you will see that a cyclic group can act faithfully but not regularly.
â Keith Kearnes
Jan 8 at 8:43
Yes I noticed. I had forgotten about how products of two cyclic groups can nevertheless be cyclic again themselves.
â Vincent
Jan 8 at 8:45
1
Thank you very much, Vincent.
â Mikhail Goltvanitsa
Jan 8 at 8:50
add a comment |Â
"I think the other post explicitly uses that the group under consideration is not just abelian but also cyclic" -- No. The problem is that the other post is not correct. If you look at my 4rth paragraph you will see that a cyclic group can act faithfully but not regularly.
â Keith Kearnes
Jan 8 at 8:43
Yes I noticed. I had forgotten about how products of two cyclic groups can nevertheless be cyclic again themselves.
â Vincent
Jan 8 at 8:45
1
Thank you very much, Vincent.
â Mikhail Goltvanitsa
Jan 8 at 8:50
"I think the other post explicitly uses that the group under consideration is not just abelian but also cyclic" -- No. The problem is that the other post is not correct. If you look at my 4rth paragraph you will see that a cyclic group can act faithfully but not regularly.
â Keith Kearnes
Jan 8 at 8:43
"I think the other post explicitly uses that the group under consideration is not just abelian but also cyclic" -- No. The problem is that the other post is not correct. If you look at my 4rth paragraph you will see that a cyclic group can act faithfully but not regularly.
â Keith Kearnes
Jan 8 at 8:43
Yes I noticed. I had forgotten about how products of two cyclic groups can nevertheless be cyclic again themselves.
â Vincent
Jan 8 at 8:45
Yes I noticed. I had forgotten about how products of two cyclic groups can nevertheless be cyclic again themselves.
â Vincent
Jan 8 at 8:45
1
1
Thank you very much, Vincent.
â Mikhail Goltvanitsa
Jan 8 at 8:50
Thank you very much, Vincent.
â Mikhail Goltvanitsa
Jan 8 at 8:50
add a comment |Â
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