Dual Spaces and Natural maps

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(I'll explain what I know first and then I'll ask the questions). Given a finite dimensional vector space $V$, it is often remarked that there is no "natural" isomorphism from $V$ to $V^*$ (I guess this means a basis independent isomorphism?). I understand that one typically constructs an isomorphism $V to V^*$ by fixing a basis for $V$, call this $B = v_1, v_2, ldots, v_n$, and then mapping $v_i mapsto delta_i$ where $delta_i$ is the linear functional given by $delta_i(v_i) = delta_ij$. Here are my questions:



(1) Why is there no natural isomorphism $V to V^*$?



(2) If $V$ is a finite dimensional inner product space, we can map each $v mapsto langle v, cdot rangle$. Is this not "natural"? (I know we can consider sesquilinear forms, but let's keep the discussion to this inner product for simplicity).







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    (I'll explain what I know first and then I'll ask the questions). Given a finite dimensional vector space $V$, it is often remarked that there is no "natural" isomorphism from $V$ to $V^*$ (I guess this means a basis independent isomorphism?). I understand that one typically constructs an isomorphism $V to V^*$ by fixing a basis for $V$, call this $B = v_1, v_2, ldots, v_n$, and then mapping $v_i mapsto delta_i$ where $delta_i$ is the linear functional given by $delta_i(v_i) = delta_ij$. Here are my questions:



    (1) Why is there no natural isomorphism $V to V^*$?



    (2) If $V$ is a finite dimensional inner product space, we can map each $v mapsto langle v, cdot rangle$. Is this not "natural"? (I know we can consider sesquilinear forms, but let's keep the discussion to this inner product for simplicity).







    share|cite|improve this question
























      up vote
      3
      down vote

      favorite
      2









      up vote
      3
      down vote

      favorite
      2






      2





      (I'll explain what I know first and then I'll ask the questions). Given a finite dimensional vector space $V$, it is often remarked that there is no "natural" isomorphism from $V$ to $V^*$ (I guess this means a basis independent isomorphism?). I understand that one typically constructs an isomorphism $V to V^*$ by fixing a basis for $V$, call this $B = v_1, v_2, ldots, v_n$, and then mapping $v_i mapsto delta_i$ where $delta_i$ is the linear functional given by $delta_i(v_i) = delta_ij$. Here are my questions:



      (1) Why is there no natural isomorphism $V to V^*$?



      (2) If $V$ is a finite dimensional inner product space, we can map each $v mapsto langle v, cdot rangle$. Is this not "natural"? (I know we can consider sesquilinear forms, but let's keep the discussion to this inner product for simplicity).







      share|cite|improve this question














      (I'll explain what I know first and then I'll ask the questions). Given a finite dimensional vector space $V$, it is often remarked that there is no "natural" isomorphism from $V$ to $V^*$ (I guess this means a basis independent isomorphism?). I understand that one typically constructs an isomorphism $V to V^*$ by fixing a basis for $V$, call this $B = v_1, v_2, ldots, v_n$, and then mapping $v_i mapsto delta_i$ where $delta_i$ is the linear functional given by $delta_i(v_i) = delta_ij$. Here are my questions:



      (1) Why is there no natural isomorphism $V to V^*$?



      (2) If $V$ is a finite dimensional inner product space, we can map each $v mapsto langle v, cdot rangle$. Is this not "natural"? (I know we can consider sesquilinear forms, but let's keep the discussion to this inner product for simplicity).









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      share|cite|improve this question




      share|cite|improve this question








      edited Jan 10 '13 at 10:15







      user26857

















      asked Jan 10 '13 at 5:26









      nigel

      1,199928




      1,199928




















          3 Answers
          3






          active

          oldest

          votes

















          up vote
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          down vote



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          There are similar posts here:



          Why are vector spaces not isomorphic to their duals?



          A basis for the dual space of $V$



          Isomorphisms Between a Finite-Dimensional Vector Space and its Dual



          Dual of a vector space



          The moral is for finite dimensional case, the two space $V$ and $V^*$ are isomorphic because they have the same dimension and they are over the same field. For infinite dimensional case (for example if $V$ has a countable basis), then $V^*$ is larger than $V$ because the cardinality of the two bases differ; the $V$ has cardinality $mathbbN$ while $V^*$ has cardinality of all maps from $mathbbN$ to $mathbbN$. We know the space of maps from $mathbbN$ to two points has cardinality $c$, so the second one is strictly larger than the first one. In otherwords they are not isomorphic.






          share|cite|improve this answer





























            up vote
            3
            down vote













            Yes, you are right about natural essentially meaning basis-independant here.



            (1) There is none. Any isomorphism $Vto V^*$ puts a bias on the basis (though it does not determine a specific base), as it allows us to define an inner product. Since there are different iner products possible (e.g. by chosing different isomorphisms), no choice is natural.



            (2) Yes, for spaces with inner product, this is a natural choice. In general there is however no inner product given






            share|cite|improve this answer



























              up vote
              2
              down vote













              To elaborate on Hagen von Eitzen's answer to question (2), one way to understand an inner product (or, more generally, a nondegenerate bilinear form) on a finite-dimensional vector space is as a choice of isomorphism to the dual!



              Indeed, your comment in question (2) shows that fixing a bilinear from $langlecdot,cdotrangle$ gives us a natural map $Vrightarrow V^*$, and it is straightforward to check that this map is an isomorphism iff the form is nondegenerate.



              In the other direction, given any isomorphism $psi:Vrightarrow V^*$, we can define a nondegenerate bilinear form
              $$langle v, wrangle = psi(v)[w]$$






              share|cite|improve this answer




















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                3 Answers
                3






                active

                oldest

                votes








                3 Answers
                3






                active

                oldest

                votes









                active

                oldest

                votes






                active

                oldest

                votes








                up vote
                2
                down vote



                accepted










                There are similar posts here:



                Why are vector spaces not isomorphic to their duals?



                A basis for the dual space of $V$



                Isomorphisms Between a Finite-Dimensional Vector Space and its Dual



                Dual of a vector space



                The moral is for finite dimensional case, the two space $V$ and $V^*$ are isomorphic because they have the same dimension and they are over the same field. For infinite dimensional case (for example if $V$ has a countable basis), then $V^*$ is larger than $V$ because the cardinality of the two bases differ; the $V$ has cardinality $mathbbN$ while $V^*$ has cardinality of all maps from $mathbbN$ to $mathbbN$. We know the space of maps from $mathbbN$ to two points has cardinality $c$, so the second one is strictly larger than the first one. In otherwords they are not isomorphic.






                share|cite|improve this answer


























                  up vote
                  2
                  down vote



                  accepted










                  There are similar posts here:



                  Why are vector spaces not isomorphic to their duals?



                  A basis for the dual space of $V$



                  Isomorphisms Between a Finite-Dimensional Vector Space and its Dual



                  Dual of a vector space



                  The moral is for finite dimensional case, the two space $V$ and $V^*$ are isomorphic because they have the same dimension and they are over the same field. For infinite dimensional case (for example if $V$ has a countable basis), then $V^*$ is larger than $V$ because the cardinality of the two bases differ; the $V$ has cardinality $mathbbN$ while $V^*$ has cardinality of all maps from $mathbbN$ to $mathbbN$. We know the space of maps from $mathbbN$ to two points has cardinality $c$, so the second one is strictly larger than the first one. In otherwords they are not isomorphic.






                  share|cite|improve this answer
























                    up vote
                    2
                    down vote



                    accepted







                    up vote
                    2
                    down vote



                    accepted






                    There are similar posts here:



                    Why are vector spaces not isomorphic to their duals?



                    A basis for the dual space of $V$



                    Isomorphisms Between a Finite-Dimensional Vector Space and its Dual



                    Dual of a vector space



                    The moral is for finite dimensional case, the two space $V$ and $V^*$ are isomorphic because they have the same dimension and they are over the same field. For infinite dimensional case (for example if $V$ has a countable basis), then $V^*$ is larger than $V$ because the cardinality of the two bases differ; the $V$ has cardinality $mathbbN$ while $V^*$ has cardinality of all maps from $mathbbN$ to $mathbbN$. We know the space of maps from $mathbbN$ to two points has cardinality $c$, so the second one is strictly larger than the first one. In otherwords they are not isomorphic.






                    share|cite|improve this answer














                    There are similar posts here:



                    Why are vector spaces not isomorphic to their duals?



                    A basis for the dual space of $V$



                    Isomorphisms Between a Finite-Dimensional Vector Space and its Dual



                    Dual of a vector space



                    The moral is for finite dimensional case, the two space $V$ and $V^*$ are isomorphic because they have the same dimension and they are over the same field. For infinite dimensional case (for example if $V$ has a countable basis), then $V^*$ is larger than $V$ because the cardinality of the two bases differ; the $V$ has cardinality $mathbbN$ while $V^*$ has cardinality of all maps from $mathbbN$ to $mathbbN$. We know the space of maps from $mathbbN$ to two points has cardinality $c$, so the second one is strictly larger than the first one. In otherwords they are not isomorphic.







                    share|cite|improve this answer














                    share|cite|improve this answer



                    share|cite|improve this answer








                    edited Apr 13 '17 at 12:21









                    Community♦

                    1




                    1










                    answered Jan 10 '13 at 5:41









                    Bombyx mori

                    12.8k52771




                    12.8k52771




















                        up vote
                        3
                        down vote













                        Yes, you are right about natural essentially meaning basis-independant here.



                        (1) There is none. Any isomorphism $Vto V^*$ puts a bias on the basis (though it does not determine a specific base), as it allows us to define an inner product. Since there are different iner products possible (e.g. by chosing different isomorphisms), no choice is natural.



                        (2) Yes, for spaces with inner product, this is a natural choice. In general there is however no inner product given






                        share|cite|improve this answer
























                          up vote
                          3
                          down vote













                          Yes, you are right about natural essentially meaning basis-independant here.



                          (1) There is none. Any isomorphism $Vto V^*$ puts a bias on the basis (though it does not determine a specific base), as it allows us to define an inner product. Since there are different iner products possible (e.g. by chosing different isomorphisms), no choice is natural.



                          (2) Yes, for spaces with inner product, this is a natural choice. In general there is however no inner product given






                          share|cite|improve this answer






















                            up vote
                            3
                            down vote










                            up vote
                            3
                            down vote









                            Yes, you are right about natural essentially meaning basis-independant here.



                            (1) There is none. Any isomorphism $Vto V^*$ puts a bias on the basis (though it does not determine a specific base), as it allows us to define an inner product. Since there are different iner products possible (e.g. by chosing different isomorphisms), no choice is natural.



                            (2) Yes, for spaces with inner product, this is a natural choice. In general there is however no inner product given






                            share|cite|improve this answer












                            Yes, you are right about natural essentially meaning basis-independant here.



                            (1) There is none. Any isomorphism $Vto V^*$ puts a bias on the basis (though it does not determine a specific base), as it allows us to define an inner product. Since there are different iner products possible (e.g. by chosing different isomorphisms), no choice is natural.



                            (2) Yes, for spaces with inner product, this is a natural choice. In general there is however no inner product given







                            share|cite|improve this answer












                            share|cite|improve this answer



                            share|cite|improve this answer










                            answered Jan 10 '13 at 5:43









                            Hagen von Eitzen

                            266k21259480




                            266k21259480




















                                up vote
                                2
                                down vote













                                To elaborate on Hagen von Eitzen's answer to question (2), one way to understand an inner product (or, more generally, a nondegenerate bilinear form) on a finite-dimensional vector space is as a choice of isomorphism to the dual!



                                Indeed, your comment in question (2) shows that fixing a bilinear from $langlecdot,cdotrangle$ gives us a natural map $Vrightarrow V^*$, and it is straightforward to check that this map is an isomorphism iff the form is nondegenerate.



                                In the other direction, given any isomorphism $psi:Vrightarrow V^*$, we can define a nondegenerate bilinear form
                                $$langle v, wrangle = psi(v)[w]$$






                                share|cite|improve this answer
























                                  up vote
                                  2
                                  down vote













                                  To elaborate on Hagen von Eitzen's answer to question (2), one way to understand an inner product (or, more generally, a nondegenerate bilinear form) on a finite-dimensional vector space is as a choice of isomorphism to the dual!



                                  Indeed, your comment in question (2) shows that fixing a bilinear from $langlecdot,cdotrangle$ gives us a natural map $Vrightarrow V^*$, and it is straightforward to check that this map is an isomorphism iff the form is nondegenerate.



                                  In the other direction, given any isomorphism $psi:Vrightarrow V^*$, we can define a nondegenerate bilinear form
                                  $$langle v, wrangle = psi(v)[w]$$






                                  share|cite|improve this answer






















                                    up vote
                                    2
                                    down vote










                                    up vote
                                    2
                                    down vote









                                    To elaborate on Hagen von Eitzen's answer to question (2), one way to understand an inner product (or, more generally, a nondegenerate bilinear form) on a finite-dimensional vector space is as a choice of isomorphism to the dual!



                                    Indeed, your comment in question (2) shows that fixing a bilinear from $langlecdot,cdotrangle$ gives us a natural map $Vrightarrow V^*$, and it is straightforward to check that this map is an isomorphism iff the form is nondegenerate.



                                    In the other direction, given any isomorphism $psi:Vrightarrow V^*$, we can define a nondegenerate bilinear form
                                    $$langle v, wrangle = psi(v)[w]$$






                                    share|cite|improve this answer












                                    To elaborate on Hagen von Eitzen's answer to question (2), one way to understand an inner product (or, more generally, a nondegenerate bilinear form) on a finite-dimensional vector space is as a choice of isomorphism to the dual!



                                    Indeed, your comment in question (2) shows that fixing a bilinear from $langlecdot,cdotrangle$ gives us a natural map $Vrightarrow V^*$, and it is straightforward to check that this map is an isomorphism iff the form is nondegenerate.



                                    In the other direction, given any isomorphism $psi:Vrightarrow V^*$, we can define a nondegenerate bilinear form
                                    $$langle v, wrangle = psi(v)[w]$$







                                    share|cite|improve this answer












                                    share|cite|improve this answer



                                    share|cite|improve this answer










                                    answered Dec 30 '13 at 20:00









                                    Ben Blum-Smith

                                    9,70322981




                                    9,70322981



























                                         

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