If $omega^alpha$ has cofinality $omega^beta$, and $betalegammalealpha$, does it also have a cofinal subset of order type $omega^gamma$?

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Here's a question I'm having some trouble answering:



Say we have an ordinal $omega^alpha$ and suppose it has cofinality $omega^beta$, i.e., $omega^beta$ is the smallest order type of a cofinal subset. (Yes, it must be an initial ordinal; it's not clear to me whether that's relevant for this particular question.) Let $gamma$ be such that $betalegammalealpha$. The question is: Must $omega^alpha$ have a cofinal subset of order type exactly $omega^gamma$?



Notes: This is obviously false if we were to replace $omega^alpha$ with an ordinal that might not be a power of $omega$.



Thank you!










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  • Your title and your question have the order of $alpha,beta$ and $gamma$ flipped.
    – Asaf Karagila♦
    Sep 3 at 7:44










  • Oops! WIll fix, thanks.
    – Harry Altman
    Sep 3 at 7:47














up vote
1
down vote

favorite












Here's a question I'm having some trouble answering:



Say we have an ordinal $omega^alpha$ and suppose it has cofinality $omega^beta$, i.e., $omega^beta$ is the smallest order type of a cofinal subset. (Yes, it must be an initial ordinal; it's not clear to me whether that's relevant for this particular question.) Let $gamma$ be such that $betalegammalealpha$. The question is: Must $omega^alpha$ have a cofinal subset of order type exactly $omega^gamma$?



Notes: This is obviously false if we were to replace $omega^alpha$ with an ordinal that might not be a power of $omega$.



Thank you!










share|cite|improve this question























  • Your title and your question have the order of $alpha,beta$ and $gamma$ flipped.
    – Asaf Karagila♦
    Sep 3 at 7:44










  • Oops! WIll fix, thanks.
    – Harry Altman
    Sep 3 at 7:47












up vote
1
down vote

favorite









up vote
1
down vote

favorite











Here's a question I'm having some trouble answering:



Say we have an ordinal $omega^alpha$ and suppose it has cofinality $omega^beta$, i.e., $omega^beta$ is the smallest order type of a cofinal subset. (Yes, it must be an initial ordinal; it's not clear to me whether that's relevant for this particular question.) Let $gamma$ be such that $betalegammalealpha$. The question is: Must $omega^alpha$ have a cofinal subset of order type exactly $omega^gamma$?



Notes: This is obviously false if we were to replace $omega^alpha$ with an ordinal that might not be a power of $omega$.



Thank you!










share|cite|improve this question















Here's a question I'm having some trouble answering:



Say we have an ordinal $omega^alpha$ and suppose it has cofinality $omega^beta$, i.e., $omega^beta$ is the smallest order type of a cofinal subset. (Yes, it must be an initial ordinal; it's not clear to me whether that's relevant for this particular question.) Let $gamma$ be such that $betalegammalealpha$. The question is: Must $omega^alpha$ have a cofinal subset of order type exactly $omega^gamma$?



Notes: This is obviously false if we were to replace $omega^alpha$ with an ordinal that might not be a power of $omega$.



Thank you!







set-theory order-theory ordinals well-orders






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edited Sep 3 at 7:48

























asked Sep 3 at 7:30









Harry Altman

2,6121626




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  • Your title and your question have the order of $alpha,beta$ and $gamma$ flipped.
    – Asaf Karagila♦
    Sep 3 at 7:44










  • Oops! WIll fix, thanks.
    – Harry Altman
    Sep 3 at 7:47
















  • Your title and your question have the order of $alpha,beta$ and $gamma$ flipped.
    – Asaf Karagila♦
    Sep 3 at 7:44










  • Oops! WIll fix, thanks.
    – Harry Altman
    Sep 3 at 7:47















Your title and your question have the order of $alpha,beta$ and $gamma$ flipped.
– Asaf Karagila♦
Sep 3 at 7:44




Your title and your question have the order of $alpha,beta$ and $gamma$ flipped.
– Asaf Karagila♦
Sep 3 at 7:44












Oops! WIll fix, thanks.
– Harry Altman
Sep 3 at 7:47




Oops! WIll fix, thanks.
– Harry Altman
Sep 3 at 7:47










1 Answer
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Certainly not.



First, note that if $omega^beta$ is an infinite cardinal, then it must be equal to $omega$ or to $beta$. This is even easier to see in the case where $omega^beta$ is regular, which is our case anyway.



Now, say $beta>omega$. If $gamma=beta+1$, then $omega^gamma=omega^betacdotomega=betacdotomega$, and this ordinal has countable cofinality. In particular, if $delta$ is any ordinal whose cofinality is $beta$, it does not have a cofinal subset whose cofinality is $omega$, and in particular no cofinal subset can be of type $omega^gamma$.






share|cite|improve this answer




















  • Oh, yeah, I guess that does it; strictly speaking this also requires that it is, in fact, possible, for an uncountable ordinal to be the cofinality of something strictly larger than itself, but that's easy enough to show. I may try re-asking a refined version of this...
    – Harry Altman
    Sep 3 at 7:54










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1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes








1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes








up vote
1
down vote



accepted










Certainly not.



First, note that if $omega^beta$ is an infinite cardinal, then it must be equal to $omega$ or to $beta$. This is even easier to see in the case where $omega^beta$ is regular, which is our case anyway.



Now, say $beta>omega$. If $gamma=beta+1$, then $omega^gamma=omega^betacdotomega=betacdotomega$, and this ordinal has countable cofinality. In particular, if $delta$ is any ordinal whose cofinality is $beta$, it does not have a cofinal subset whose cofinality is $omega$, and in particular no cofinal subset can be of type $omega^gamma$.






share|cite|improve this answer




















  • Oh, yeah, I guess that does it; strictly speaking this also requires that it is, in fact, possible, for an uncountable ordinal to be the cofinality of something strictly larger than itself, but that's easy enough to show. I may try re-asking a refined version of this...
    – Harry Altman
    Sep 3 at 7:54














up vote
1
down vote



accepted










Certainly not.



First, note that if $omega^beta$ is an infinite cardinal, then it must be equal to $omega$ or to $beta$. This is even easier to see in the case where $omega^beta$ is regular, which is our case anyway.



Now, say $beta>omega$. If $gamma=beta+1$, then $omega^gamma=omega^betacdotomega=betacdotomega$, and this ordinal has countable cofinality. In particular, if $delta$ is any ordinal whose cofinality is $beta$, it does not have a cofinal subset whose cofinality is $omega$, and in particular no cofinal subset can be of type $omega^gamma$.






share|cite|improve this answer




















  • Oh, yeah, I guess that does it; strictly speaking this also requires that it is, in fact, possible, for an uncountable ordinal to be the cofinality of something strictly larger than itself, but that's easy enough to show. I may try re-asking a refined version of this...
    – Harry Altman
    Sep 3 at 7:54












up vote
1
down vote



accepted







up vote
1
down vote



accepted






Certainly not.



First, note that if $omega^beta$ is an infinite cardinal, then it must be equal to $omega$ or to $beta$. This is even easier to see in the case where $omega^beta$ is regular, which is our case anyway.



Now, say $beta>omega$. If $gamma=beta+1$, then $omega^gamma=omega^betacdotomega=betacdotomega$, and this ordinal has countable cofinality. In particular, if $delta$ is any ordinal whose cofinality is $beta$, it does not have a cofinal subset whose cofinality is $omega$, and in particular no cofinal subset can be of type $omega^gamma$.






share|cite|improve this answer












Certainly not.



First, note that if $omega^beta$ is an infinite cardinal, then it must be equal to $omega$ or to $beta$. This is even easier to see in the case where $omega^beta$ is regular, which is our case anyway.



Now, say $beta>omega$. If $gamma=beta+1$, then $omega^gamma=omega^betacdotomega=betacdotomega$, and this ordinal has countable cofinality. In particular, if $delta$ is any ordinal whose cofinality is $beta$, it does not have a cofinal subset whose cofinality is $omega$, and in particular no cofinal subset can be of type $omega^gamma$.







share|cite|improve this answer












share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer










answered Sep 3 at 7:40









Asaf Karagila♦

294k32410738




294k32410738











  • Oh, yeah, I guess that does it; strictly speaking this also requires that it is, in fact, possible, for an uncountable ordinal to be the cofinality of something strictly larger than itself, but that's easy enough to show. I may try re-asking a refined version of this...
    – Harry Altman
    Sep 3 at 7:54
















  • Oh, yeah, I guess that does it; strictly speaking this also requires that it is, in fact, possible, for an uncountable ordinal to be the cofinality of something strictly larger than itself, but that's easy enough to show. I may try re-asking a refined version of this...
    – Harry Altman
    Sep 3 at 7:54















Oh, yeah, I guess that does it; strictly speaking this also requires that it is, in fact, possible, for an uncountable ordinal to be the cofinality of something strictly larger than itself, but that's easy enough to show. I may try re-asking a refined version of this...
– Harry Altman
Sep 3 at 7:54




Oh, yeah, I guess that does it; strictly speaking this also requires that it is, in fact, possible, for an uncountable ordinal to be the cofinality of something strictly larger than itself, but that's easy enough to show. I may try re-asking a refined version of this...
– Harry Altman
Sep 3 at 7:54

















 

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