Combinatorial doubt, why $^nC_1.^(n-1)C_1neq ^nC_2$

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Two cards are drawn simultaneously (or successively without replacement)
from a well shuffled pack of 52 cards.




$$
#(textone king and one non-king)=^4C_1.^48C_1=frac4!3!*1!.frac48!47!*1!=4*48\
#(textno king)=^48C_2=frac48!46!*2!=frac48*472
$$
Fine, but why can't we do instead
$$
#(textno king)=^48C_1.^47C_1=frac48!47!*1!.frac47!46!*1!=48*47neq ^48C_2
$$










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  • Number of no king should be $binom482$. You can also fix this in your second calculation.
    – ArsenBerk
    Sep 3 at 7:26











  • @ss1729, Recheck your no kings calculation. You need to select 2 cards from 48 cards, not 52 cards.
    – prog_SAHIL
    Sep 3 at 7:33










  • @ArsenBerk ohh right srry abt that. but my doubt remains the same.
    – ss1729
    Sep 3 at 7:39










  • I answered the question as well. What doubt still remains the same according to that answer? I can try to explain it better if you tell me the problem.
    – ArsenBerk
    Sep 3 at 7:40











  • Can you see why $^2C_1cdot$$^1C_1ne$$^2C_2$?
    – bof
    Sep 3 at 8:09















up vote
3
down vote

favorite













Two cards are drawn simultaneously (or successively without replacement)
from a well shuffled pack of 52 cards.




$$
#(textone king and one non-king)=^4C_1.^48C_1=frac4!3!*1!.frac48!47!*1!=4*48\
#(textno king)=^48C_2=frac48!46!*2!=frac48*472
$$
Fine, but why can't we do instead
$$
#(textno king)=^48C_1.^47C_1=frac48!47!*1!.frac47!46!*1!=48*47neq ^48C_2
$$










share|cite|improve this question























  • Number of no king should be $binom482$. You can also fix this in your second calculation.
    – ArsenBerk
    Sep 3 at 7:26











  • @ss1729, Recheck your no kings calculation. You need to select 2 cards from 48 cards, not 52 cards.
    – prog_SAHIL
    Sep 3 at 7:33










  • @ArsenBerk ohh right srry abt that. but my doubt remains the same.
    – ss1729
    Sep 3 at 7:39










  • I answered the question as well. What doubt still remains the same according to that answer? I can try to explain it better if you tell me the problem.
    – ArsenBerk
    Sep 3 at 7:40











  • Can you see why $^2C_1cdot$$^1C_1ne$$^2C_2$?
    – bof
    Sep 3 at 8:09













up vote
3
down vote

favorite









up vote
3
down vote

favorite












Two cards are drawn simultaneously (or successively without replacement)
from a well shuffled pack of 52 cards.




$$
#(textone king and one non-king)=^4C_1.^48C_1=frac4!3!*1!.frac48!47!*1!=4*48\
#(textno king)=^48C_2=frac48!46!*2!=frac48*472
$$
Fine, but why can't we do instead
$$
#(textno king)=^48C_1.^47C_1=frac48!47!*1!.frac47!46!*1!=48*47neq ^48C_2
$$










share|cite|improve this question
















Two cards are drawn simultaneously (or successively without replacement)
from a well shuffled pack of 52 cards.




$$
#(textone king and one non-king)=^4C_1.^48C_1=frac4!3!*1!.frac48!47!*1!=4*48\
#(textno king)=^48C_2=frac48!46!*2!=frac48*472
$$
Fine, but why can't we do instead
$$
#(textno king)=^48C_1.^47C_1=frac48!47!*1!.frac47!46!*1!=48*47neq ^48C_2
$$







combinatorics binomial-coefficients






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edited Sep 6 at 12:56

























asked Sep 3 at 7:23









ss1729

1,455621




1,455621











  • Number of no king should be $binom482$. You can also fix this in your second calculation.
    – ArsenBerk
    Sep 3 at 7:26











  • @ss1729, Recheck your no kings calculation. You need to select 2 cards from 48 cards, not 52 cards.
    – prog_SAHIL
    Sep 3 at 7:33










  • @ArsenBerk ohh right srry abt that. but my doubt remains the same.
    – ss1729
    Sep 3 at 7:39










  • I answered the question as well. What doubt still remains the same according to that answer? I can try to explain it better if you tell me the problem.
    – ArsenBerk
    Sep 3 at 7:40











  • Can you see why $^2C_1cdot$$^1C_1ne$$^2C_2$?
    – bof
    Sep 3 at 8:09

















  • Number of no king should be $binom482$. You can also fix this in your second calculation.
    – ArsenBerk
    Sep 3 at 7:26











  • @ss1729, Recheck your no kings calculation. You need to select 2 cards from 48 cards, not 52 cards.
    – prog_SAHIL
    Sep 3 at 7:33










  • @ArsenBerk ohh right srry abt that. but my doubt remains the same.
    – ss1729
    Sep 3 at 7:39










  • I answered the question as well. What doubt still remains the same according to that answer? I can try to explain it better if you tell me the problem.
    – ArsenBerk
    Sep 3 at 7:40











  • Can you see why $^2C_1cdot$$^1C_1ne$$^2C_2$?
    – bof
    Sep 3 at 8:09
















Number of no king should be $binom482$. You can also fix this in your second calculation.
– ArsenBerk
Sep 3 at 7:26





Number of no king should be $binom482$. You can also fix this in your second calculation.
– ArsenBerk
Sep 3 at 7:26













@ss1729, Recheck your no kings calculation. You need to select 2 cards from 48 cards, not 52 cards.
– prog_SAHIL
Sep 3 at 7:33




@ss1729, Recheck your no kings calculation. You need to select 2 cards from 48 cards, not 52 cards.
– prog_SAHIL
Sep 3 at 7:33












@ArsenBerk ohh right srry abt that. but my doubt remains the same.
– ss1729
Sep 3 at 7:39




@ArsenBerk ohh right srry abt that. but my doubt remains the same.
– ss1729
Sep 3 at 7:39












I answered the question as well. What doubt still remains the same according to that answer? I can try to explain it better if you tell me the problem.
– ArsenBerk
Sep 3 at 7:40





I answered the question as well. What doubt still remains the same according to that answer? I can try to explain it better if you tell me the problem.
– ArsenBerk
Sep 3 at 7:40













Can you see why $^2C_1cdot$$^1C_1ne$$^2C_2$?
– bof
Sep 3 at 8:09





Can you see why $^2C_1cdot$$^1C_1ne$$^2C_2$?
– bof
Sep 3 at 8:09











3 Answers
3






active

oldest

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up vote
2
down vote



accepted










When you do as in your second calculation, what happens is this:



Suppose you first choose spade $2$ (with $binom481$) and then choose spade $3$ (with $binom471$). But this is as same as choosing spade $3$ first and then spade $2$. So, we just count each case twice, which results in finding $2$ times the correct result.






share|cite|improve this answer





























    up vote
    1
    down vote













    LHS: choose one object from the set of $n$ objects, the choose another one from the same set withput the first object. The key here isthe word 'same', because this implies that object 1 and object 2 can be chosen in two different ways (or orders, if you wish) as they belong to the same set.



    RHS: choose two objects from the same set accounting for the order, i.e. reduce the number of ways to choose these objects by 2. This returns the unique number of such choices.






    share|cite|improve this answer



























      up vote
      0
      down vote













      When you do this :



      $#(textno king)=^48C_1.^47C_1$



      You essentially introduce an extra condition and your question becomes :



      What are the number of ways to select a card that is not a King and without replacing it select another card which is not a King (again).



      The way this differs with the original question is : when you actually have 48 cards and you have to select two cards and hence the order doesn't matter so you use $^48C_2$, so essentially you are choosing two cards at a time which counts as single choice whereas with the other question (mentioned in bold above) you necessarily impose a restriction of choosing a single card first from a pool of $48$ cards and then choose another card from the reduced pool (which is now $47$). So you are now choosing two cards one by one which counts as two separate choices, hence the double value in your answer.



      Take this example. You have a set of two spade symbols:



      $spadesuit_1 spadesuit_2$



      $1)$ If you want to choose two spades at once from the above set then you have:



      $spadesuit_1 spadesuit_2$ - (only choice) - $^2C_2=1$



      $2)$ Now if you want to choose a(any) diamond first out of the set then you have:



      $spadesuit_1$ - $1^st$ Choice



      $spadesuit_2$ - $2^nd$ Choice



      So it becomes $1+1=2$ Choices, i.e. $^2C_1=2$.



      $3)$ Now suppose that you have already chosen a spade (say $spadesuit_1$) and now you want to choose another spade from the remaining set of spades, you have:



      $spadesuit_2$ - (only choice) - $^1C_1=1$



      So now if you use AND between condition $2)$ and $3)$ you get the result as $^2C_1*^1C_1=2$ and clearly $^2C_1*^1C_1 ne ^2C_2$






      share|cite|improve this answer






















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        3 Answers
        3






        active

        oldest

        votes








        3 Answers
        3






        active

        oldest

        votes









        active

        oldest

        votes






        active

        oldest

        votes








        up vote
        2
        down vote



        accepted










        When you do as in your second calculation, what happens is this:



        Suppose you first choose spade $2$ (with $binom481$) and then choose spade $3$ (with $binom471$). But this is as same as choosing spade $3$ first and then spade $2$. So, we just count each case twice, which results in finding $2$ times the correct result.






        share|cite|improve this answer


























          up vote
          2
          down vote



          accepted










          When you do as in your second calculation, what happens is this:



          Suppose you first choose spade $2$ (with $binom481$) and then choose spade $3$ (with $binom471$). But this is as same as choosing spade $3$ first and then spade $2$. So, we just count each case twice, which results in finding $2$ times the correct result.






          share|cite|improve this answer
























            up vote
            2
            down vote



            accepted







            up vote
            2
            down vote



            accepted






            When you do as in your second calculation, what happens is this:



            Suppose you first choose spade $2$ (with $binom481$) and then choose spade $3$ (with $binom471$). But this is as same as choosing spade $3$ first and then spade $2$. So, we just count each case twice, which results in finding $2$ times the correct result.






            share|cite|improve this answer














            When you do as in your second calculation, what happens is this:



            Suppose you first choose spade $2$ (with $binom481$) and then choose spade $3$ (with $binom471$). But this is as same as choosing spade $3$ first and then spade $2$. So, we just count each case twice, which results in finding $2$ times the correct result.







            share|cite|improve this answer














            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer








            edited Sep 3 at 7:36

























            answered Sep 3 at 7:30









            ArsenBerk

            6,9521933




            6,9521933




















                up vote
                1
                down vote













                LHS: choose one object from the set of $n$ objects, the choose another one from the same set withput the first object. The key here isthe word 'same', because this implies that object 1 and object 2 can be chosen in two different ways (or orders, if you wish) as they belong to the same set.



                RHS: choose two objects from the same set accounting for the order, i.e. reduce the number of ways to choose these objects by 2. This returns the unique number of such choices.






                share|cite|improve this answer
























                  up vote
                  1
                  down vote













                  LHS: choose one object from the set of $n$ objects, the choose another one from the same set withput the first object. The key here isthe word 'same', because this implies that object 1 and object 2 can be chosen in two different ways (or orders, if you wish) as they belong to the same set.



                  RHS: choose two objects from the same set accounting for the order, i.e. reduce the number of ways to choose these objects by 2. This returns the unique number of such choices.






                  share|cite|improve this answer






















                    up vote
                    1
                    down vote










                    up vote
                    1
                    down vote









                    LHS: choose one object from the set of $n$ objects, the choose another one from the same set withput the first object. The key here isthe word 'same', because this implies that object 1 and object 2 can be chosen in two different ways (or orders, if you wish) as they belong to the same set.



                    RHS: choose two objects from the same set accounting for the order, i.e. reduce the number of ways to choose these objects by 2. This returns the unique number of such choices.






                    share|cite|improve this answer












                    LHS: choose one object from the set of $n$ objects, the choose another one from the same set withput the first object. The key here isthe word 'same', because this implies that object 1 and object 2 can be chosen in two different ways (or orders, if you wish) as they belong to the same set.



                    RHS: choose two objects from the same set accounting for the order, i.e. reduce the number of ways to choose these objects by 2. This returns the unique number of such choices.







                    share|cite|improve this answer












                    share|cite|improve this answer



                    share|cite|improve this answer










                    answered Sep 3 at 8:05









                    Alex

                    14k42032




                    14k42032




















                        up vote
                        0
                        down vote













                        When you do this :



                        $#(textno king)=^48C_1.^47C_1$



                        You essentially introduce an extra condition and your question becomes :



                        What are the number of ways to select a card that is not a King and without replacing it select another card which is not a King (again).



                        The way this differs with the original question is : when you actually have 48 cards and you have to select two cards and hence the order doesn't matter so you use $^48C_2$, so essentially you are choosing two cards at a time which counts as single choice whereas with the other question (mentioned in bold above) you necessarily impose a restriction of choosing a single card first from a pool of $48$ cards and then choose another card from the reduced pool (which is now $47$). So you are now choosing two cards one by one which counts as two separate choices, hence the double value in your answer.



                        Take this example. You have a set of two spade symbols:



                        $spadesuit_1 spadesuit_2$



                        $1)$ If you want to choose two spades at once from the above set then you have:



                        $spadesuit_1 spadesuit_2$ - (only choice) - $^2C_2=1$



                        $2)$ Now if you want to choose a(any) diamond first out of the set then you have:



                        $spadesuit_1$ - $1^st$ Choice



                        $spadesuit_2$ - $2^nd$ Choice



                        So it becomes $1+1=2$ Choices, i.e. $^2C_1=2$.



                        $3)$ Now suppose that you have already chosen a spade (say $spadesuit_1$) and now you want to choose another spade from the remaining set of spades, you have:



                        $spadesuit_2$ - (only choice) - $^1C_1=1$



                        So now if you use AND between condition $2)$ and $3)$ you get the result as $^2C_1*^1C_1=2$ and clearly $^2C_1*^1C_1 ne ^2C_2$






                        share|cite|improve this answer


























                          up vote
                          0
                          down vote













                          When you do this :



                          $#(textno king)=^48C_1.^47C_1$



                          You essentially introduce an extra condition and your question becomes :



                          What are the number of ways to select a card that is not a King and without replacing it select another card which is not a King (again).



                          The way this differs with the original question is : when you actually have 48 cards and you have to select two cards and hence the order doesn't matter so you use $^48C_2$, so essentially you are choosing two cards at a time which counts as single choice whereas with the other question (mentioned in bold above) you necessarily impose a restriction of choosing a single card first from a pool of $48$ cards and then choose another card from the reduced pool (which is now $47$). So you are now choosing two cards one by one which counts as two separate choices, hence the double value in your answer.



                          Take this example. You have a set of two spade symbols:



                          $spadesuit_1 spadesuit_2$



                          $1)$ If you want to choose two spades at once from the above set then you have:



                          $spadesuit_1 spadesuit_2$ - (only choice) - $^2C_2=1$



                          $2)$ Now if you want to choose a(any) diamond first out of the set then you have:



                          $spadesuit_1$ - $1^st$ Choice



                          $spadesuit_2$ - $2^nd$ Choice



                          So it becomes $1+1=2$ Choices, i.e. $^2C_1=2$.



                          $3)$ Now suppose that you have already chosen a spade (say $spadesuit_1$) and now you want to choose another spade from the remaining set of spades, you have:



                          $spadesuit_2$ - (only choice) - $^1C_1=1$



                          So now if you use AND between condition $2)$ and $3)$ you get the result as $^2C_1*^1C_1=2$ and clearly $^2C_1*^1C_1 ne ^2C_2$






                          share|cite|improve this answer
























                            up vote
                            0
                            down vote










                            up vote
                            0
                            down vote









                            When you do this :



                            $#(textno king)=^48C_1.^47C_1$



                            You essentially introduce an extra condition and your question becomes :



                            What are the number of ways to select a card that is not a King and without replacing it select another card which is not a King (again).



                            The way this differs with the original question is : when you actually have 48 cards and you have to select two cards and hence the order doesn't matter so you use $^48C_2$, so essentially you are choosing two cards at a time which counts as single choice whereas with the other question (mentioned in bold above) you necessarily impose a restriction of choosing a single card first from a pool of $48$ cards and then choose another card from the reduced pool (which is now $47$). So you are now choosing two cards one by one which counts as two separate choices, hence the double value in your answer.



                            Take this example. You have a set of two spade symbols:



                            $spadesuit_1 spadesuit_2$



                            $1)$ If you want to choose two spades at once from the above set then you have:



                            $spadesuit_1 spadesuit_2$ - (only choice) - $^2C_2=1$



                            $2)$ Now if you want to choose a(any) diamond first out of the set then you have:



                            $spadesuit_1$ - $1^st$ Choice



                            $spadesuit_2$ - $2^nd$ Choice



                            So it becomes $1+1=2$ Choices, i.e. $^2C_1=2$.



                            $3)$ Now suppose that you have already chosen a spade (say $spadesuit_1$) and now you want to choose another spade from the remaining set of spades, you have:



                            $spadesuit_2$ - (only choice) - $^1C_1=1$



                            So now if you use AND between condition $2)$ and $3)$ you get the result as $^2C_1*^1C_1=2$ and clearly $^2C_1*^1C_1 ne ^2C_2$






                            share|cite|improve this answer














                            When you do this :



                            $#(textno king)=^48C_1.^47C_1$



                            You essentially introduce an extra condition and your question becomes :



                            What are the number of ways to select a card that is not a King and without replacing it select another card which is not a King (again).



                            The way this differs with the original question is : when you actually have 48 cards and you have to select two cards and hence the order doesn't matter so you use $^48C_2$, so essentially you are choosing two cards at a time which counts as single choice whereas with the other question (mentioned in bold above) you necessarily impose a restriction of choosing a single card first from a pool of $48$ cards and then choose another card from the reduced pool (which is now $47$). So you are now choosing two cards one by one which counts as two separate choices, hence the double value in your answer.



                            Take this example. You have a set of two spade symbols:



                            $spadesuit_1 spadesuit_2$



                            $1)$ If you want to choose two spades at once from the above set then you have:



                            $spadesuit_1 spadesuit_2$ - (only choice) - $^2C_2=1$



                            $2)$ Now if you want to choose a(any) diamond first out of the set then you have:



                            $spadesuit_1$ - $1^st$ Choice



                            $spadesuit_2$ - $2^nd$ Choice



                            So it becomes $1+1=2$ Choices, i.e. $^2C_1=2$.



                            $3)$ Now suppose that you have already chosen a spade (say $spadesuit_1$) and now you want to choose another spade from the remaining set of spades, you have:



                            $spadesuit_2$ - (only choice) - $^1C_1=1$



                            So now if you use AND between condition $2)$ and $3)$ you get the result as $^2C_1*^1C_1=2$ and clearly $^2C_1*^1C_1 ne ^2C_2$







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                            edited Sep 3 at 9:39

























                            answered Sep 3 at 8:58









                            paulplusx

                            991318




                            991318



























                                 

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