Why is this not a choice function from subsets of $Bbb R$?
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A definition of the Axiom of Choice mentions that:
[...] no choice function is known for the collection of all
non-empty subsets of the real numbers
--Wikipedia
However, for all non-empty subsets $X$ of the real numbers I can construct a function $f$ which chooses the element closest to $0$, and if there are two such elements, chooses the positive one.
Below is my attempt at stating this rigorously:
$ forall X subset mathbbR | X neq emptyset: f(X)=begincases
x:min (|X|),& textif (max(x):x in X, x<0) neq (min(x):x in X, x>0)\
min(|X|),& textotherwise
endcases$
This certainly holds for subsets of reals which
- are positive only $longrightarrow$ select the smallest
- are negative only $longrightarrow$ select the largest
- contain $0$ $longrightarrow$ select $0$
- are positive and negative $longrightarrow$ select the element nearest to $0$
- contain a positive and a negative element both closest to $0$ $longrightarrow$ select the positive one
Is this a choice function for the collection of all non-empty subsets of the real numbers? And if it's not a breakthrough, what am I missing?
elementary-set-theory real-numbers axiom-of-choice
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
favorite
A definition of the Axiom of Choice mentions that:
[...] no choice function is known for the collection of all
non-empty subsets of the real numbers
--Wikipedia
However, for all non-empty subsets $X$ of the real numbers I can construct a function $f$ which chooses the element closest to $0$, and if there are two such elements, chooses the positive one.
Below is my attempt at stating this rigorously:
$ forall X subset mathbbR | X neq emptyset: f(X)=begincases
x:min (|X|),& textif (max(x):x in X, x<0) neq (min(x):x in X, x>0)\
min(|X|),& textotherwise
endcases$
This certainly holds for subsets of reals which
- are positive only $longrightarrow$ select the smallest
- are negative only $longrightarrow$ select the largest
- contain $0$ $longrightarrow$ select $0$
- are positive and negative $longrightarrow$ select the element nearest to $0$
- contain a positive and a negative element both closest to $0$ $longrightarrow$ select the positive one
Is this a choice function for the collection of all non-empty subsets of the real numbers? And if it's not a breakthrough, what am I missing?
elementary-set-theory real-numbers axiom-of-choice
4
There is no such thing as "the element closest to zero" in, say, the set $,1,.1,.01,.001,.0001,dots,$.
â Gerry Myerson
Sep 4 at 9:12
How about the number $0.dot01$? And if $0.dot9 = 1$, then surely the smallest element of the above sequence equals $0$
â MrMartin
Sep 5 at 7:53
Sorry, MrM, not even close. Before you can make a breakthrough, you have to learn some mathematics.
â Gerry Myerson
Sep 5 at 13:25
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
down vote
favorite
up vote
1
down vote
favorite
A definition of the Axiom of Choice mentions that:
[...] no choice function is known for the collection of all
non-empty subsets of the real numbers
--Wikipedia
However, for all non-empty subsets $X$ of the real numbers I can construct a function $f$ which chooses the element closest to $0$, and if there are two such elements, chooses the positive one.
Below is my attempt at stating this rigorously:
$ forall X subset mathbbR | X neq emptyset: f(X)=begincases
x:min (|X|),& textif (max(x):x in X, x<0) neq (min(x):x in X, x>0)\
min(|X|),& textotherwise
endcases$
This certainly holds for subsets of reals which
- are positive only $longrightarrow$ select the smallest
- are negative only $longrightarrow$ select the largest
- contain $0$ $longrightarrow$ select $0$
- are positive and negative $longrightarrow$ select the element nearest to $0$
- contain a positive and a negative element both closest to $0$ $longrightarrow$ select the positive one
Is this a choice function for the collection of all non-empty subsets of the real numbers? And if it's not a breakthrough, what am I missing?
elementary-set-theory real-numbers axiom-of-choice
A definition of the Axiom of Choice mentions that:
[...] no choice function is known for the collection of all
non-empty subsets of the real numbers
--Wikipedia
However, for all non-empty subsets $X$ of the real numbers I can construct a function $f$ which chooses the element closest to $0$, and if there are two such elements, chooses the positive one.
Below is my attempt at stating this rigorously:
$ forall X subset mathbbR | X neq emptyset: f(X)=begincases
x:min (|X|),& textif (max(x):x in X, x<0) neq (min(x):x in X, x>0)\
min(|X|),& textotherwise
endcases$
This certainly holds for subsets of reals which
- are positive only $longrightarrow$ select the smallest
- are negative only $longrightarrow$ select the largest
- contain $0$ $longrightarrow$ select $0$
- are positive and negative $longrightarrow$ select the element nearest to $0$
- contain a positive and a negative element both closest to $0$ $longrightarrow$ select the positive one
Is this a choice function for the collection of all non-empty subsets of the real numbers? And if it's not a breakthrough, what am I missing?
elementary-set-theory real-numbers axiom-of-choice
elementary-set-theory real-numbers axiom-of-choice
edited Sep 4 at 9:34
Asaf Karagilaâ¦
294k32410738
294k32410738
asked Sep 4 at 9:10
MrMartin
637
637
4
There is no such thing as "the element closest to zero" in, say, the set $,1,.1,.01,.001,.0001,dots,$.
â Gerry Myerson
Sep 4 at 9:12
How about the number $0.dot01$? And if $0.dot9 = 1$, then surely the smallest element of the above sequence equals $0$
â MrMartin
Sep 5 at 7:53
Sorry, MrM, not even close. Before you can make a breakthrough, you have to learn some mathematics.
â Gerry Myerson
Sep 5 at 13:25
add a comment |Â
4
There is no such thing as "the element closest to zero" in, say, the set $,1,.1,.01,.001,.0001,dots,$.
â Gerry Myerson
Sep 4 at 9:12
How about the number $0.dot01$? And if $0.dot9 = 1$, then surely the smallest element of the above sequence equals $0$
â MrMartin
Sep 5 at 7:53
Sorry, MrM, not even close. Before you can make a breakthrough, you have to learn some mathematics.
â Gerry Myerson
Sep 5 at 13:25
4
4
There is no such thing as "the element closest to zero" in, say, the set $,1,.1,.01,.001,.0001,dots,$.
â Gerry Myerson
Sep 4 at 9:12
There is no such thing as "the element closest to zero" in, say, the set $,1,.1,.01,.001,.0001,dots,$.
â Gerry Myerson
Sep 4 at 9:12
How about the number $0.dot01$? And if $0.dot9 = 1$, then surely the smallest element of the above sequence equals $0$
â MrMartin
Sep 5 at 7:53
How about the number $0.dot01$? And if $0.dot9 = 1$, then surely the smallest element of the above sequence equals $0$
â MrMartin
Sep 5 at 7:53
Sorry, MrM, not even close. Before you can make a breakthrough, you have to learn some mathematics.
â Gerry Myerson
Sep 5 at 13:25
Sorry, MrM, not even close. Before you can make a breakthrough, you have to learn some mathematics.
â Gerry Myerson
Sep 5 at 13:25
add a comment |Â
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
up vote
3
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accepted
No, it is not a choice function, because it is not defined for all non-empty subsets of $mathbb R$. For instance, $fbigl((1,2]bigr)$ is not defined.
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
There are two possible reasons why you're making this mistake:
You are only thinking about finite subsets of the reals. In that case, yes, you can uniformly define a choice function from all non-empty finite subsets of the real numbers. Take the closest to $0$, or the minimum, that works equally well.
You are really thinking about the integers, rather than the real numbers. Because if I asked you to choose a number, you're probably going to say $1$ or $5$ or $42$ if you're being clever. But you're unlikely to say Chaitin's constant, or $varphi$. Even if you say something like $pi,e,sqrt2$ or $frac12$, those are only a few specific constants in mind. The rest are integers.
So you're not thinking about the real numbers as a dense linear order. You're thinking about them as $Bbb Z$ + a few more useful numbers. And of course that in that case, taking the smallest positive or the largest negative works.
But as pointed by others, this is not going to work in general. In fact, even for $Bbb Q$ this is not going to work, because there is no smallest positive rational number and there is no largest negative rational numbers. Simply dividing by two will work.
However, unlikely with $Bbb R$, we can in fact define a choice function on non-empty sets of $Bbb Q$. Consider each rational numbers as $frac pq$ where $pinBbb Z$ and $qinBbb Nsetminus0$ and $q$ has the smallest possible value. Then simply choose the one with the smallest $q$ that has $p$ closest to $0$.
But why wouldn't that work for $Bbb R$? Well, because $Bbb R$ is much larger than $Bbb Q$ in terms of cardinality. You cannot represent it as a field of fractions. It is not countable, and you cannot jump through various hoops to give an explicit choice functions.
It's not just that. We know for a fact that there are models of set theory without the axiom of choice where there is no choice function. It's not even about being able to define a choice function or not (because in some universes of set theory, there is in fact a definable choice function), it's purely about existence. So whatever definition you have, it is either not going to provably choose from all sets of reals, or it is not provably a choice function. In the case you suggest here, it is in fact provably not choosing from all sets of reals.
Thank you for the extended explanation, the function I suggested definitely won't work. But now I'm thinking of other functions that could, for instance, an infinite recursive program. Has it been proven that a choice function for $Bbb R$ cannot exist?
â MrMartin
Sep 5 at 8:46
1
What does it "proven" from what axioms? The axiom of choice proves that such a choice function exists. Additional set theoretic axioms can even let you define one explicitly (to some extent). But if you want the standard axioms without choice, namely ZF, then yes, it is proven that it is consistent that no such choice function exists. Therefore you cannot define it explicitly. Even worse, though: even allowing choice, it is possible that there are no choice functions which are definable, or even "reasonable definable" if you allow parameters in the definition.
â Asaf Karagilaâ¦
Sep 5 at 8:52
This is essentially the content of the last paragraph of my answer, by the way.
â Asaf Karagilaâ¦
Sep 5 at 8:53
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
Consider the set $mathbb R^+ = xinmathbb R: x>0$. This is clearly a non-empty subset of $mathbb R$, and it consists only of positive numbers (indeed, it consists of all of them).
So, let's try to apply your rule:
are positive only ⶠselect the smallest
OK, so what is the smallest element of $mathbb R^+$? Well, let's assume we've found it; let's call it $s$ (for âÂÂsmallestâÂÂ). But then, what about $s/2$? Clearly, $s/2$ is also positive, so it's also in $mathbb R^+$. Moreover, as can be easily checked, $s/2<s$. But that means that we have found an element in $mathbb R^+$ smaller than the smallest element in $mathbb R^+$. Obviously that cannot exist.
But since this construction works for any element of $mathbb R^+$, it follows that $mathbb R^+$ has no smallest element. And thus your supposed choice function doesn't work.
Sounds like Zeno's paradox. So you're saying that dividing by two ad infinitum does not reach $0$. But $lim limits_x to infty frac12^x = 0$, doesn't it?
â MrMartin
Sep 5 at 8:07
1
@MrMartin: But $0notinmathbb R^+$, therefore a valid choice function cannot give $0$ for $mathbb R^+$. All bounded sets of real numbers have an infimum (the real numbers are complete by construction), but not all bounded sets have a minimum (i.e. an infimum that is contained in the set). A choice function has to give an element of the set, not just an element related to the set (such as a member of its closure).
â celtschk
Sep 5 at 8:25
add a comment |Â
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
3
down vote
accepted
No, it is not a choice function, because it is not defined for all non-empty subsets of $mathbb R$. For instance, $fbigl((1,2]bigr)$ is not defined.
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
accepted
No, it is not a choice function, because it is not defined for all non-empty subsets of $mathbb R$. For instance, $fbigl((1,2]bigr)$ is not defined.
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
accepted
up vote
3
down vote
accepted
No, it is not a choice function, because it is not defined for all non-empty subsets of $mathbb R$. For instance, $fbigl((1,2]bigr)$ is not defined.
No, it is not a choice function, because it is not defined for all non-empty subsets of $mathbb R$. For instance, $fbigl((1,2]bigr)$ is not defined.
edited Sep 4 at 9:19
answered Sep 4 at 9:13
José Carlos Santos
122k16101186
122k16101186
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
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There are two possible reasons why you're making this mistake:
You are only thinking about finite subsets of the reals. In that case, yes, you can uniformly define a choice function from all non-empty finite subsets of the real numbers. Take the closest to $0$, or the minimum, that works equally well.
You are really thinking about the integers, rather than the real numbers. Because if I asked you to choose a number, you're probably going to say $1$ or $5$ or $42$ if you're being clever. But you're unlikely to say Chaitin's constant, or $varphi$. Even if you say something like $pi,e,sqrt2$ or $frac12$, those are only a few specific constants in mind. The rest are integers.
So you're not thinking about the real numbers as a dense linear order. You're thinking about them as $Bbb Z$ + a few more useful numbers. And of course that in that case, taking the smallest positive or the largest negative works.
But as pointed by others, this is not going to work in general. In fact, even for $Bbb Q$ this is not going to work, because there is no smallest positive rational number and there is no largest negative rational numbers. Simply dividing by two will work.
However, unlikely with $Bbb R$, we can in fact define a choice function on non-empty sets of $Bbb Q$. Consider each rational numbers as $frac pq$ where $pinBbb Z$ and $qinBbb Nsetminus0$ and $q$ has the smallest possible value. Then simply choose the one with the smallest $q$ that has $p$ closest to $0$.
But why wouldn't that work for $Bbb R$? Well, because $Bbb R$ is much larger than $Bbb Q$ in terms of cardinality. You cannot represent it as a field of fractions. It is not countable, and you cannot jump through various hoops to give an explicit choice functions.
It's not just that. We know for a fact that there are models of set theory without the axiom of choice where there is no choice function. It's not even about being able to define a choice function or not (because in some universes of set theory, there is in fact a definable choice function), it's purely about existence. So whatever definition you have, it is either not going to provably choose from all sets of reals, or it is not provably a choice function. In the case you suggest here, it is in fact provably not choosing from all sets of reals.
Thank you for the extended explanation, the function I suggested definitely won't work. But now I'm thinking of other functions that could, for instance, an infinite recursive program. Has it been proven that a choice function for $Bbb R$ cannot exist?
â MrMartin
Sep 5 at 8:46
1
What does it "proven" from what axioms? The axiom of choice proves that such a choice function exists. Additional set theoretic axioms can even let you define one explicitly (to some extent). But if you want the standard axioms without choice, namely ZF, then yes, it is proven that it is consistent that no such choice function exists. Therefore you cannot define it explicitly. Even worse, though: even allowing choice, it is possible that there are no choice functions which are definable, or even "reasonable definable" if you allow parameters in the definition.
â Asaf Karagilaâ¦
Sep 5 at 8:52
This is essentially the content of the last paragraph of my answer, by the way.
â Asaf Karagilaâ¦
Sep 5 at 8:53
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
There are two possible reasons why you're making this mistake:
You are only thinking about finite subsets of the reals. In that case, yes, you can uniformly define a choice function from all non-empty finite subsets of the real numbers. Take the closest to $0$, or the minimum, that works equally well.
You are really thinking about the integers, rather than the real numbers. Because if I asked you to choose a number, you're probably going to say $1$ or $5$ or $42$ if you're being clever. But you're unlikely to say Chaitin's constant, or $varphi$. Even if you say something like $pi,e,sqrt2$ or $frac12$, those are only a few specific constants in mind. The rest are integers.
So you're not thinking about the real numbers as a dense linear order. You're thinking about them as $Bbb Z$ + a few more useful numbers. And of course that in that case, taking the smallest positive or the largest negative works.
But as pointed by others, this is not going to work in general. In fact, even for $Bbb Q$ this is not going to work, because there is no smallest positive rational number and there is no largest negative rational numbers. Simply dividing by two will work.
However, unlikely with $Bbb R$, we can in fact define a choice function on non-empty sets of $Bbb Q$. Consider each rational numbers as $frac pq$ where $pinBbb Z$ and $qinBbb Nsetminus0$ and $q$ has the smallest possible value. Then simply choose the one with the smallest $q$ that has $p$ closest to $0$.
But why wouldn't that work for $Bbb R$? Well, because $Bbb R$ is much larger than $Bbb Q$ in terms of cardinality. You cannot represent it as a field of fractions. It is not countable, and you cannot jump through various hoops to give an explicit choice functions.
It's not just that. We know for a fact that there are models of set theory without the axiom of choice where there is no choice function. It's not even about being able to define a choice function or not (because in some universes of set theory, there is in fact a definable choice function), it's purely about existence. So whatever definition you have, it is either not going to provably choose from all sets of reals, or it is not provably a choice function. In the case you suggest here, it is in fact provably not choosing from all sets of reals.
Thank you for the extended explanation, the function I suggested definitely won't work. But now I'm thinking of other functions that could, for instance, an infinite recursive program. Has it been proven that a choice function for $Bbb R$ cannot exist?
â MrMartin
Sep 5 at 8:46
1
What does it "proven" from what axioms? The axiom of choice proves that such a choice function exists. Additional set theoretic axioms can even let you define one explicitly (to some extent). But if you want the standard axioms without choice, namely ZF, then yes, it is proven that it is consistent that no such choice function exists. Therefore you cannot define it explicitly. Even worse, though: even allowing choice, it is possible that there are no choice functions which are definable, or even "reasonable definable" if you allow parameters in the definition.
â Asaf Karagilaâ¦
Sep 5 at 8:52
This is essentially the content of the last paragraph of my answer, by the way.
â Asaf Karagilaâ¦
Sep 5 at 8:53
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
There are two possible reasons why you're making this mistake:
You are only thinking about finite subsets of the reals. In that case, yes, you can uniformly define a choice function from all non-empty finite subsets of the real numbers. Take the closest to $0$, or the minimum, that works equally well.
You are really thinking about the integers, rather than the real numbers. Because if I asked you to choose a number, you're probably going to say $1$ or $5$ or $42$ if you're being clever. But you're unlikely to say Chaitin's constant, or $varphi$. Even if you say something like $pi,e,sqrt2$ or $frac12$, those are only a few specific constants in mind. The rest are integers.
So you're not thinking about the real numbers as a dense linear order. You're thinking about them as $Bbb Z$ + a few more useful numbers. And of course that in that case, taking the smallest positive or the largest negative works.
But as pointed by others, this is not going to work in general. In fact, even for $Bbb Q$ this is not going to work, because there is no smallest positive rational number and there is no largest negative rational numbers. Simply dividing by two will work.
However, unlikely with $Bbb R$, we can in fact define a choice function on non-empty sets of $Bbb Q$. Consider each rational numbers as $frac pq$ where $pinBbb Z$ and $qinBbb Nsetminus0$ and $q$ has the smallest possible value. Then simply choose the one with the smallest $q$ that has $p$ closest to $0$.
But why wouldn't that work for $Bbb R$? Well, because $Bbb R$ is much larger than $Bbb Q$ in terms of cardinality. You cannot represent it as a field of fractions. It is not countable, and you cannot jump through various hoops to give an explicit choice functions.
It's not just that. We know for a fact that there are models of set theory without the axiom of choice where there is no choice function. It's not even about being able to define a choice function or not (because in some universes of set theory, there is in fact a definable choice function), it's purely about existence. So whatever definition you have, it is either not going to provably choose from all sets of reals, or it is not provably a choice function. In the case you suggest here, it is in fact provably not choosing from all sets of reals.
There are two possible reasons why you're making this mistake:
You are only thinking about finite subsets of the reals. In that case, yes, you can uniformly define a choice function from all non-empty finite subsets of the real numbers. Take the closest to $0$, or the minimum, that works equally well.
You are really thinking about the integers, rather than the real numbers. Because if I asked you to choose a number, you're probably going to say $1$ or $5$ or $42$ if you're being clever. But you're unlikely to say Chaitin's constant, or $varphi$. Even if you say something like $pi,e,sqrt2$ or $frac12$, those are only a few specific constants in mind. The rest are integers.
So you're not thinking about the real numbers as a dense linear order. You're thinking about them as $Bbb Z$ + a few more useful numbers. And of course that in that case, taking the smallest positive or the largest negative works.
But as pointed by others, this is not going to work in general. In fact, even for $Bbb Q$ this is not going to work, because there is no smallest positive rational number and there is no largest negative rational numbers. Simply dividing by two will work.
However, unlikely with $Bbb R$, we can in fact define a choice function on non-empty sets of $Bbb Q$. Consider each rational numbers as $frac pq$ where $pinBbb Z$ and $qinBbb Nsetminus0$ and $q$ has the smallest possible value. Then simply choose the one with the smallest $q$ that has $p$ closest to $0$.
But why wouldn't that work for $Bbb R$? Well, because $Bbb R$ is much larger than $Bbb Q$ in terms of cardinality. You cannot represent it as a field of fractions. It is not countable, and you cannot jump through various hoops to give an explicit choice functions.
It's not just that. We know for a fact that there are models of set theory without the axiom of choice where there is no choice function. It's not even about being able to define a choice function or not (because in some universes of set theory, there is in fact a definable choice function), it's purely about existence. So whatever definition you have, it is either not going to provably choose from all sets of reals, or it is not provably a choice function. In the case you suggest here, it is in fact provably not choosing from all sets of reals.
answered Sep 4 at 9:29
Asaf Karagilaâ¦
294k32410738
294k32410738
Thank you for the extended explanation, the function I suggested definitely won't work. But now I'm thinking of other functions that could, for instance, an infinite recursive program. Has it been proven that a choice function for $Bbb R$ cannot exist?
â MrMartin
Sep 5 at 8:46
1
What does it "proven" from what axioms? The axiom of choice proves that such a choice function exists. Additional set theoretic axioms can even let you define one explicitly (to some extent). But if you want the standard axioms without choice, namely ZF, then yes, it is proven that it is consistent that no such choice function exists. Therefore you cannot define it explicitly. Even worse, though: even allowing choice, it is possible that there are no choice functions which are definable, or even "reasonable definable" if you allow parameters in the definition.
â Asaf Karagilaâ¦
Sep 5 at 8:52
This is essentially the content of the last paragraph of my answer, by the way.
â Asaf Karagilaâ¦
Sep 5 at 8:53
add a comment |Â
Thank you for the extended explanation, the function I suggested definitely won't work. But now I'm thinking of other functions that could, for instance, an infinite recursive program. Has it been proven that a choice function for $Bbb R$ cannot exist?
â MrMartin
Sep 5 at 8:46
1
What does it "proven" from what axioms? The axiom of choice proves that such a choice function exists. Additional set theoretic axioms can even let you define one explicitly (to some extent). But if you want the standard axioms without choice, namely ZF, then yes, it is proven that it is consistent that no such choice function exists. Therefore you cannot define it explicitly. Even worse, though: even allowing choice, it is possible that there are no choice functions which are definable, or even "reasonable definable" if you allow parameters in the definition.
â Asaf Karagilaâ¦
Sep 5 at 8:52
This is essentially the content of the last paragraph of my answer, by the way.
â Asaf Karagilaâ¦
Sep 5 at 8:53
Thank you for the extended explanation, the function I suggested definitely won't work. But now I'm thinking of other functions that could, for instance, an infinite recursive program. Has it been proven that a choice function for $Bbb R$ cannot exist?
â MrMartin
Sep 5 at 8:46
Thank you for the extended explanation, the function I suggested definitely won't work. But now I'm thinking of other functions that could, for instance, an infinite recursive program. Has it been proven that a choice function for $Bbb R$ cannot exist?
â MrMartin
Sep 5 at 8:46
1
1
What does it "proven" from what axioms? The axiom of choice proves that such a choice function exists. Additional set theoretic axioms can even let you define one explicitly (to some extent). But if you want the standard axioms without choice, namely ZF, then yes, it is proven that it is consistent that no such choice function exists. Therefore you cannot define it explicitly. Even worse, though: even allowing choice, it is possible that there are no choice functions which are definable, or even "reasonable definable" if you allow parameters in the definition.
â Asaf Karagilaâ¦
Sep 5 at 8:52
What does it "proven" from what axioms? The axiom of choice proves that such a choice function exists. Additional set theoretic axioms can even let you define one explicitly (to some extent). But if you want the standard axioms without choice, namely ZF, then yes, it is proven that it is consistent that no such choice function exists. Therefore you cannot define it explicitly. Even worse, though: even allowing choice, it is possible that there are no choice functions which are definable, or even "reasonable definable" if you allow parameters in the definition.
â Asaf Karagilaâ¦
Sep 5 at 8:52
This is essentially the content of the last paragraph of my answer, by the way.
â Asaf Karagilaâ¦
Sep 5 at 8:53
This is essentially the content of the last paragraph of my answer, by the way.
â Asaf Karagilaâ¦
Sep 5 at 8:53
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
Consider the set $mathbb R^+ = xinmathbb R: x>0$. This is clearly a non-empty subset of $mathbb R$, and it consists only of positive numbers (indeed, it consists of all of them).
So, let's try to apply your rule:
are positive only ⶠselect the smallest
OK, so what is the smallest element of $mathbb R^+$? Well, let's assume we've found it; let's call it $s$ (for âÂÂsmallestâÂÂ). But then, what about $s/2$? Clearly, $s/2$ is also positive, so it's also in $mathbb R^+$. Moreover, as can be easily checked, $s/2<s$. But that means that we have found an element in $mathbb R^+$ smaller than the smallest element in $mathbb R^+$. Obviously that cannot exist.
But since this construction works for any element of $mathbb R^+$, it follows that $mathbb R^+$ has no smallest element. And thus your supposed choice function doesn't work.
Sounds like Zeno's paradox. So you're saying that dividing by two ad infinitum does not reach $0$. But $lim limits_x to infty frac12^x = 0$, doesn't it?
â MrMartin
Sep 5 at 8:07
1
@MrMartin: But $0notinmathbb R^+$, therefore a valid choice function cannot give $0$ for $mathbb R^+$. All bounded sets of real numbers have an infimum (the real numbers are complete by construction), but not all bounded sets have a minimum (i.e. an infimum that is contained in the set). A choice function has to give an element of the set, not just an element related to the set (such as a member of its closure).
â celtschk
Sep 5 at 8:25
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
Consider the set $mathbb R^+ = xinmathbb R: x>0$. This is clearly a non-empty subset of $mathbb R$, and it consists only of positive numbers (indeed, it consists of all of them).
So, let's try to apply your rule:
are positive only ⶠselect the smallest
OK, so what is the smallest element of $mathbb R^+$? Well, let's assume we've found it; let's call it $s$ (for âÂÂsmallestâÂÂ). But then, what about $s/2$? Clearly, $s/2$ is also positive, so it's also in $mathbb R^+$. Moreover, as can be easily checked, $s/2<s$. But that means that we have found an element in $mathbb R^+$ smaller than the smallest element in $mathbb R^+$. Obviously that cannot exist.
But since this construction works for any element of $mathbb R^+$, it follows that $mathbb R^+$ has no smallest element. And thus your supposed choice function doesn't work.
Sounds like Zeno's paradox. So you're saying that dividing by two ad infinitum does not reach $0$. But $lim limits_x to infty frac12^x = 0$, doesn't it?
â MrMartin
Sep 5 at 8:07
1
@MrMartin: But $0notinmathbb R^+$, therefore a valid choice function cannot give $0$ for $mathbb R^+$. All bounded sets of real numbers have an infimum (the real numbers are complete by construction), but not all bounded sets have a minimum (i.e. an infimum that is contained in the set). A choice function has to give an element of the set, not just an element related to the set (such as a member of its closure).
â celtschk
Sep 5 at 8:25
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
Consider the set $mathbb R^+ = xinmathbb R: x>0$. This is clearly a non-empty subset of $mathbb R$, and it consists only of positive numbers (indeed, it consists of all of them).
So, let's try to apply your rule:
are positive only ⶠselect the smallest
OK, so what is the smallest element of $mathbb R^+$? Well, let's assume we've found it; let's call it $s$ (for âÂÂsmallestâÂÂ). But then, what about $s/2$? Clearly, $s/2$ is also positive, so it's also in $mathbb R^+$. Moreover, as can be easily checked, $s/2<s$. But that means that we have found an element in $mathbb R^+$ smaller than the smallest element in $mathbb R^+$. Obviously that cannot exist.
But since this construction works for any element of $mathbb R^+$, it follows that $mathbb R^+$ has no smallest element. And thus your supposed choice function doesn't work.
Consider the set $mathbb R^+ = xinmathbb R: x>0$. This is clearly a non-empty subset of $mathbb R$, and it consists only of positive numbers (indeed, it consists of all of them).
So, let's try to apply your rule:
are positive only ⶠselect the smallest
OK, so what is the smallest element of $mathbb R^+$? Well, let's assume we've found it; let's call it $s$ (for âÂÂsmallestâÂÂ). But then, what about $s/2$? Clearly, $s/2$ is also positive, so it's also in $mathbb R^+$. Moreover, as can be easily checked, $s/2<s$. But that means that we have found an element in $mathbb R^+$ smaller than the smallest element in $mathbb R^+$. Obviously that cannot exist.
But since this construction works for any element of $mathbb R^+$, it follows that $mathbb R^+$ has no smallest element. And thus your supposed choice function doesn't work.
answered Sep 4 at 9:19
celtschk
29.3k75599
29.3k75599
Sounds like Zeno's paradox. So you're saying that dividing by two ad infinitum does not reach $0$. But $lim limits_x to infty frac12^x = 0$, doesn't it?
â MrMartin
Sep 5 at 8:07
1
@MrMartin: But $0notinmathbb R^+$, therefore a valid choice function cannot give $0$ for $mathbb R^+$. All bounded sets of real numbers have an infimum (the real numbers are complete by construction), but not all bounded sets have a minimum (i.e. an infimum that is contained in the set). A choice function has to give an element of the set, not just an element related to the set (such as a member of its closure).
â celtschk
Sep 5 at 8:25
add a comment |Â
Sounds like Zeno's paradox. So you're saying that dividing by two ad infinitum does not reach $0$. But $lim limits_x to infty frac12^x = 0$, doesn't it?
â MrMartin
Sep 5 at 8:07
1
@MrMartin: But $0notinmathbb R^+$, therefore a valid choice function cannot give $0$ for $mathbb R^+$. All bounded sets of real numbers have an infimum (the real numbers are complete by construction), but not all bounded sets have a minimum (i.e. an infimum that is contained in the set). A choice function has to give an element of the set, not just an element related to the set (such as a member of its closure).
â celtschk
Sep 5 at 8:25
Sounds like Zeno's paradox. So you're saying that dividing by two ad infinitum does not reach $0$. But $lim limits_x to infty frac12^x = 0$, doesn't it?
â MrMartin
Sep 5 at 8:07
Sounds like Zeno's paradox. So you're saying that dividing by two ad infinitum does not reach $0$. But $lim limits_x to infty frac12^x = 0$, doesn't it?
â MrMartin
Sep 5 at 8:07
1
1
@MrMartin: But $0notinmathbb R^+$, therefore a valid choice function cannot give $0$ for $mathbb R^+$. All bounded sets of real numbers have an infimum (the real numbers are complete by construction), but not all bounded sets have a minimum (i.e. an infimum that is contained in the set). A choice function has to give an element of the set, not just an element related to the set (such as a member of its closure).
â celtschk
Sep 5 at 8:25
@MrMartin: But $0notinmathbb R^+$, therefore a valid choice function cannot give $0$ for $mathbb R^+$. All bounded sets of real numbers have an infimum (the real numbers are complete by construction), but not all bounded sets have a minimum (i.e. an infimum that is contained in the set). A choice function has to give an element of the set, not just an element related to the set (such as a member of its closure).
â celtschk
Sep 5 at 8:25
add a comment |Â
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4
There is no such thing as "the element closest to zero" in, say, the set $,1,.1,.01,.001,.0001,dots,$.
â Gerry Myerson
Sep 4 at 9:12
How about the number $0.dot01$? And if $0.dot9 = 1$, then surely the smallest element of the above sequence equals $0$
â MrMartin
Sep 5 at 7:53
Sorry, MrM, not even close. Before you can make a breakthrough, you have to learn some mathematics.
â Gerry Myerson
Sep 5 at 13:25