Alternating linear forms: are they in direct sum with symmetric linear form?

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Let $E$ a $mathbb R-$vector spaces of dimension $n$. We say that $f$ is $p-$alternating if $$f(x_1,...,x_p)=0,quad (x_1,...,x_p)in E^p$$
whenever $x_i=x_j$ for some $ineq j$ (and $pleq n$). Since $mathbb R$ has a characteristic $neq 2$ this is equivalent to $$f(x_sigma 1,...,x_sigma p)=varepsilon(sigma )f(x_1,...,x_p)$$
for all $sigma in mathfrak S_p$. And such linear form are called "antisymmetric". I know that with matrices, the set of matrices are in direct sum with symmetric and antisymmetric matrices, i.e. $$mathcal M_ntimes n(mathbb R)=mathcal S_noplus mathcal A_n.$$



Question : If I denote $mathcal L_p(E)$ the space of linear form $Eto mathbb R$, $Lambda _p(E)$ the space of $p-$linear form and $mathcal S_p(E)$ the space of symmetric linear form, does it hold that $$mathcal L_p(E)=Lambda _p(E)oplus mathcal S_p(E) ?$$




Attempts



The thing is I don't find any theorem that says that. If $fin mathcal L_p(E)$, then if I denote $$f_ij(x_1,...,x_i,...,x_j,...,x_p)=f(x_1,...,x_j,...,x_i,...,x_p)$$
$$f(x_1,...,x_p)=underbracefracf+f_ij2_:=g+underbracefracf-f_ij2_:=htag*$$
then $g$ is symmetric and $h$ antisymmetric. So
$$mathcal L_p(E)=Lambda _p(E)+mathcal S_p(E) $$
looks true. But the the writing $(*)$ looks far to be unic, so I have big doubt that the sum is direct. Also, I tried : let $fin mathcal S_p(E)cap Lambda _p(E) $.
Then $f(x_1,...,x_p)=f_ij=-f_ij$ anf thus $$2f_ij=0implies f_ij=0,$$
therefore $f=0$. So it looks to be a direct sum. Since I've never sen such a result, I have doubt that my argument is correct.










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  • Can you give some examples of an alternating and symmetric linear forms on a vector space of dimension $n>2$? You are using $n$ and $p$ in your question. Are you maybe talking about multilinear forms?
    – Christoph
    Sep 4 at 11:12











  • @Christoph: yes, multilinear form. For example, if $E=mathbb R^3$, then $f(x,y)=x_1y_1$ is a $2-$multilinear form where $x=(x_1,x_2,x_3)$ and $(y_1,y_2,y_3)$
    – user386627
    Sep 4 at 12:01














up vote
0
down vote

favorite












Let $E$ a $mathbb R-$vector spaces of dimension $n$. We say that $f$ is $p-$alternating if $$f(x_1,...,x_p)=0,quad (x_1,...,x_p)in E^p$$
whenever $x_i=x_j$ for some $ineq j$ (and $pleq n$). Since $mathbb R$ has a characteristic $neq 2$ this is equivalent to $$f(x_sigma 1,...,x_sigma p)=varepsilon(sigma )f(x_1,...,x_p)$$
for all $sigma in mathfrak S_p$. And such linear form are called "antisymmetric". I know that with matrices, the set of matrices are in direct sum with symmetric and antisymmetric matrices, i.e. $$mathcal M_ntimes n(mathbb R)=mathcal S_noplus mathcal A_n.$$



Question : If I denote $mathcal L_p(E)$ the space of linear form $Eto mathbb R$, $Lambda _p(E)$ the space of $p-$linear form and $mathcal S_p(E)$ the space of symmetric linear form, does it hold that $$mathcal L_p(E)=Lambda _p(E)oplus mathcal S_p(E) ?$$




Attempts



The thing is I don't find any theorem that says that. If $fin mathcal L_p(E)$, then if I denote $$f_ij(x_1,...,x_i,...,x_j,...,x_p)=f(x_1,...,x_j,...,x_i,...,x_p)$$
$$f(x_1,...,x_p)=underbracefracf+f_ij2_:=g+underbracefracf-f_ij2_:=htag*$$
then $g$ is symmetric and $h$ antisymmetric. So
$$mathcal L_p(E)=Lambda _p(E)+mathcal S_p(E) $$
looks true. But the the writing $(*)$ looks far to be unic, so I have big doubt that the sum is direct. Also, I tried : let $fin mathcal S_p(E)cap Lambda _p(E) $.
Then $f(x_1,...,x_p)=f_ij=-f_ij$ anf thus $$2f_ij=0implies f_ij=0,$$
therefore $f=0$. So it looks to be a direct sum. Since I've never sen such a result, I have doubt that my argument is correct.










share|cite|improve this question























  • Can you give some examples of an alternating and symmetric linear forms on a vector space of dimension $n>2$? You are using $n$ and $p$ in your question. Are you maybe talking about multilinear forms?
    – Christoph
    Sep 4 at 11:12











  • @Christoph: yes, multilinear form. For example, if $E=mathbb R^3$, then $f(x,y)=x_1y_1$ is a $2-$multilinear form where $x=(x_1,x_2,x_3)$ and $(y_1,y_2,y_3)$
    – user386627
    Sep 4 at 12:01












up vote
0
down vote

favorite









up vote
0
down vote

favorite











Let $E$ a $mathbb R-$vector spaces of dimension $n$. We say that $f$ is $p-$alternating if $$f(x_1,...,x_p)=0,quad (x_1,...,x_p)in E^p$$
whenever $x_i=x_j$ for some $ineq j$ (and $pleq n$). Since $mathbb R$ has a characteristic $neq 2$ this is equivalent to $$f(x_sigma 1,...,x_sigma p)=varepsilon(sigma )f(x_1,...,x_p)$$
for all $sigma in mathfrak S_p$. And such linear form are called "antisymmetric". I know that with matrices, the set of matrices are in direct sum with symmetric and antisymmetric matrices, i.e. $$mathcal M_ntimes n(mathbb R)=mathcal S_noplus mathcal A_n.$$



Question : If I denote $mathcal L_p(E)$ the space of linear form $Eto mathbb R$, $Lambda _p(E)$ the space of $p-$linear form and $mathcal S_p(E)$ the space of symmetric linear form, does it hold that $$mathcal L_p(E)=Lambda _p(E)oplus mathcal S_p(E) ?$$




Attempts



The thing is I don't find any theorem that says that. If $fin mathcal L_p(E)$, then if I denote $$f_ij(x_1,...,x_i,...,x_j,...,x_p)=f(x_1,...,x_j,...,x_i,...,x_p)$$
$$f(x_1,...,x_p)=underbracefracf+f_ij2_:=g+underbracefracf-f_ij2_:=htag*$$
then $g$ is symmetric and $h$ antisymmetric. So
$$mathcal L_p(E)=Lambda _p(E)+mathcal S_p(E) $$
looks true. But the the writing $(*)$ looks far to be unic, so I have big doubt that the sum is direct. Also, I tried : let $fin mathcal S_p(E)cap Lambda _p(E) $.
Then $f(x_1,...,x_p)=f_ij=-f_ij$ anf thus $$2f_ij=0implies f_ij=0,$$
therefore $f=0$. So it looks to be a direct sum. Since I've never sen such a result, I have doubt that my argument is correct.










share|cite|improve this question















Let $E$ a $mathbb R-$vector spaces of dimension $n$. We say that $f$ is $p-$alternating if $$f(x_1,...,x_p)=0,quad (x_1,...,x_p)in E^p$$
whenever $x_i=x_j$ for some $ineq j$ (and $pleq n$). Since $mathbb R$ has a characteristic $neq 2$ this is equivalent to $$f(x_sigma 1,...,x_sigma p)=varepsilon(sigma )f(x_1,...,x_p)$$
for all $sigma in mathfrak S_p$. And such linear form are called "antisymmetric". I know that with matrices, the set of matrices are in direct sum with symmetric and antisymmetric matrices, i.e. $$mathcal M_ntimes n(mathbb R)=mathcal S_noplus mathcal A_n.$$



Question : If I denote $mathcal L_p(E)$ the space of linear form $Eto mathbb R$, $Lambda _p(E)$ the space of $p-$linear form and $mathcal S_p(E)$ the space of symmetric linear form, does it hold that $$mathcal L_p(E)=Lambda _p(E)oplus mathcal S_p(E) ?$$




Attempts



The thing is I don't find any theorem that says that. If $fin mathcal L_p(E)$, then if I denote $$f_ij(x_1,...,x_i,...,x_j,...,x_p)=f(x_1,...,x_j,...,x_i,...,x_p)$$
$$f(x_1,...,x_p)=underbracefracf+f_ij2_:=g+underbracefracf-f_ij2_:=htag*$$
then $g$ is symmetric and $h$ antisymmetric. So
$$mathcal L_p(E)=Lambda _p(E)+mathcal S_p(E) $$
looks true. But the the writing $(*)$ looks far to be unic, so I have big doubt that the sum is direct. Also, I tried : let $fin mathcal S_p(E)cap Lambda _p(E) $.
Then $f(x_1,...,x_p)=f_ij=-f_ij$ anf thus $$2f_ij=0implies f_ij=0,$$
therefore $f=0$. So it looks to be a direct sum. Since I've never sen such a result, I have doubt that my argument is correct.







linear-algebra






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edited Sep 4 at 11:59

























asked Sep 4 at 10:19









user386627

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  • Can you give some examples of an alternating and symmetric linear forms on a vector space of dimension $n>2$? You are using $n$ and $p$ in your question. Are you maybe talking about multilinear forms?
    – Christoph
    Sep 4 at 11:12











  • @Christoph: yes, multilinear form. For example, if $E=mathbb R^3$, then $f(x,y)=x_1y_1$ is a $2-$multilinear form where $x=(x_1,x_2,x_3)$ and $(y_1,y_2,y_3)$
    – user386627
    Sep 4 at 12:01
















  • Can you give some examples of an alternating and symmetric linear forms on a vector space of dimension $n>2$? You are using $n$ and $p$ in your question. Are you maybe talking about multilinear forms?
    – Christoph
    Sep 4 at 11:12











  • @Christoph: yes, multilinear form. For example, if $E=mathbb R^3$, then $f(x,y)=x_1y_1$ is a $2-$multilinear form where $x=(x_1,x_2,x_3)$ and $(y_1,y_2,y_3)$
    – user386627
    Sep 4 at 12:01















Can you give some examples of an alternating and symmetric linear forms on a vector space of dimension $n>2$? You are using $n$ and $p$ in your question. Are you maybe talking about multilinear forms?
– Christoph
Sep 4 at 11:12





Can you give some examples of an alternating and symmetric linear forms on a vector space of dimension $n>2$? You are using $n$ and $p$ in your question. Are you maybe talking about multilinear forms?
– Christoph
Sep 4 at 11:12













@Christoph: yes, multilinear form. For example, if $E=mathbb R^3$, then $f(x,y)=x_1y_1$ is a $2-$multilinear form where $x=(x_1,x_2,x_3)$ and $(y_1,y_2,y_3)$
– user386627
Sep 4 at 12:01




@Christoph: yes, multilinear form. For example, if $E=mathbb R^3$, then $f(x,y)=x_1y_1$ is a $2-$multilinear form where $x=(x_1,x_2,x_3)$ and $(y_1,y_2,y_3)$
– user386627
Sep 4 at 12:01










1 Answer
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up vote
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accepted










$newcommandRmathbb R$Your $f+f_ij$ and $f-f_ij$ are symmetric and anti-symmetric only with respect to the $i$-th and $j$-th argument. They are not symmetric and anti-symmetric as multilinear forms.



Note that the dimensions of $mathcal L_p(R^n)$, $Lambda_p(R^n)$ and $mathcal S_p(R^n)$ are $n^p$, $binomnp$ and $binomn+p-1p$, respectively. What does this say about your conjecture that $mathcal L_p(R^n)=Lambda_p(R^n)oplusmathcal S_p(R^n)$?






share|cite|improve this answer




















  • Well see for the first part. Well, for the second part, I tried with some value, and it works... so I guess, this work :-) (but how would you right $f$ as a sum of symmetric and antisymmetric ?)
    – user386627
    Sep 4 at 12:21











  • It works for $p=2$, try any $p>2$...
    – Christoph
    Sep 4 at 12:30










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1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes








1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes








up vote
1
down vote



accepted










$newcommandRmathbb R$Your $f+f_ij$ and $f-f_ij$ are symmetric and anti-symmetric only with respect to the $i$-th and $j$-th argument. They are not symmetric and anti-symmetric as multilinear forms.



Note that the dimensions of $mathcal L_p(R^n)$, $Lambda_p(R^n)$ and $mathcal S_p(R^n)$ are $n^p$, $binomnp$ and $binomn+p-1p$, respectively. What does this say about your conjecture that $mathcal L_p(R^n)=Lambda_p(R^n)oplusmathcal S_p(R^n)$?






share|cite|improve this answer




















  • Well see for the first part. Well, for the second part, I tried with some value, and it works... so I guess, this work :-) (but how would you right $f$ as a sum of symmetric and antisymmetric ?)
    – user386627
    Sep 4 at 12:21











  • It works for $p=2$, try any $p>2$...
    – Christoph
    Sep 4 at 12:30














up vote
1
down vote



accepted










$newcommandRmathbb R$Your $f+f_ij$ and $f-f_ij$ are symmetric and anti-symmetric only with respect to the $i$-th and $j$-th argument. They are not symmetric and anti-symmetric as multilinear forms.



Note that the dimensions of $mathcal L_p(R^n)$, $Lambda_p(R^n)$ and $mathcal S_p(R^n)$ are $n^p$, $binomnp$ and $binomn+p-1p$, respectively. What does this say about your conjecture that $mathcal L_p(R^n)=Lambda_p(R^n)oplusmathcal S_p(R^n)$?






share|cite|improve this answer




















  • Well see for the first part. Well, for the second part, I tried with some value, and it works... so I guess, this work :-) (but how would you right $f$ as a sum of symmetric and antisymmetric ?)
    – user386627
    Sep 4 at 12:21











  • It works for $p=2$, try any $p>2$...
    – Christoph
    Sep 4 at 12:30












up vote
1
down vote



accepted







up vote
1
down vote



accepted






$newcommandRmathbb R$Your $f+f_ij$ and $f-f_ij$ are symmetric and anti-symmetric only with respect to the $i$-th and $j$-th argument. They are not symmetric and anti-symmetric as multilinear forms.



Note that the dimensions of $mathcal L_p(R^n)$, $Lambda_p(R^n)$ and $mathcal S_p(R^n)$ are $n^p$, $binomnp$ and $binomn+p-1p$, respectively. What does this say about your conjecture that $mathcal L_p(R^n)=Lambda_p(R^n)oplusmathcal S_p(R^n)$?






share|cite|improve this answer












$newcommandRmathbb R$Your $f+f_ij$ and $f-f_ij$ are symmetric and anti-symmetric only with respect to the $i$-th and $j$-th argument. They are not symmetric and anti-symmetric as multilinear forms.



Note that the dimensions of $mathcal L_p(R^n)$, $Lambda_p(R^n)$ and $mathcal S_p(R^n)$ are $n^p$, $binomnp$ and $binomn+p-1p$, respectively. What does this say about your conjecture that $mathcal L_p(R^n)=Lambda_p(R^n)oplusmathcal S_p(R^n)$?







share|cite|improve this answer












share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer










answered Sep 4 at 12:17









Christoph

10.9k1240




10.9k1240











  • Well see for the first part. Well, for the second part, I tried with some value, and it works... so I guess, this work :-) (but how would you right $f$ as a sum of symmetric and antisymmetric ?)
    – user386627
    Sep 4 at 12:21











  • It works for $p=2$, try any $p>2$...
    – Christoph
    Sep 4 at 12:30
















  • Well see for the first part. Well, for the second part, I tried with some value, and it works... so I guess, this work :-) (but how would you right $f$ as a sum of symmetric and antisymmetric ?)
    – user386627
    Sep 4 at 12:21











  • It works for $p=2$, try any $p>2$...
    – Christoph
    Sep 4 at 12:30















Well see for the first part. Well, for the second part, I tried with some value, and it works... so I guess, this work :-) (but how would you right $f$ as a sum of symmetric and antisymmetric ?)
– user386627
Sep 4 at 12:21





Well see for the first part. Well, for the second part, I tried with some value, and it works... so I guess, this work :-) (but how would you right $f$ as a sum of symmetric and antisymmetric ?)
– user386627
Sep 4 at 12:21













It works for $p=2$, try any $p>2$...
– Christoph
Sep 4 at 12:30




It works for $p=2$, try any $p>2$...
– Christoph
Sep 4 at 12:30

















 

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