Alternating linear forms: are they in direct sum with symmetric linear form?

The name of the pictureThe name of the pictureThe name of the pictureClash Royale CLAN TAG#URR8PPP











up vote
0
down vote

favorite












Let $E$ a $mathbb R-$vector spaces of dimension $n$. We say that $f$ is $p-$alternating if $$f(x_1,...,x_p)=0,quad (x_1,...,x_p)in E^p$$
whenever $x_i=x_j$ for some $ineq j$ (and $pleq n$). Since $mathbb R$ has a characteristic $neq 2$ this is equivalent to $$f(x_sigma 1,...,x_sigma p)=varepsilon(sigma )f(x_1,...,x_p)$$
for all $sigma in mathfrak S_p$. And such linear form are called "antisymmetric". I know that with matrices, the set of matrices are in direct sum with symmetric and antisymmetric matrices, i.e. $$mathcal M_ntimes n(mathbb R)=mathcal S_noplus mathcal A_n.$$



Question : If I denote $mathcal L_p(E)$ the space of linear form $Eto mathbb R$, $Lambda _p(E)$ the space of $p-$linear form and $mathcal S_p(E)$ the space of symmetric linear form, does it hold that $$mathcal L_p(E)=Lambda _p(E)oplus mathcal S_p(E) ?$$




Attempts



The thing is I don't find any theorem that says that. If $fin mathcal L_p(E)$, then if I denote $$f_ij(x_1,...,x_i,...,x_j,...,x_p)=f(x_1,...,x_j,...,x_i,...,x_p)$$
$$f(x_1,...,x_p)=underbracefracf+f_ij2_:=g+underbracefracf-f_ij2_:=htag*$$
then $g$ is symmetric and $h$ antisymmetric. So
$$mathcal L_p(E)=Lambda _p(E)+mathcal S_p(E) $$
looks true. But the the writing $(*)$ looks far to be unic, so I have big doubt that the sum is direct. Also, I tried : let $fin mathcal S_p(E)cap Lambda _p(E) $.
Then $f(x_1,...,x_p)=f_ij=-f_ij$ anf thus $$2f_ij=0implies f_ij=0,$$
therefore $f=0$. So it looks to be a direct sum. Since I've never sen such a result, I have doubt that my argument is correct.










share|cite|improve this question























  • Can you give some examples of an alternating and symmetric linear forms on a vector space of dimension $n>2$? You are using $n$ and $p$ in your question. Are you maybe talking about multilinear forms?
    – Christoph
    Sep 4 at 11:12











  • @Christoph: yes, multilinear form. For example, if $E=mathbb R^3$, then $f(x,y)=x_1y_1$ is a $2-$multilinear form where $x=(x_1,x_2,x_3)$ and $(y_1,y_2,y_3)$
    – user386627
    Sep 4 at 12:01














up vote
0
down vote

favorite












Let $E$ a $mathbb R-$vector spaces of dimension $n$. We say that $f$ is $p-$alternating if $$f(x_1,...,x_p)=0,quad (x_1,...,x_p)in E^p$$
whenever $x_i=x_j$ for some $ineq j$ (and $pleq n$). Since $mathbb R$ has a characteristic $neq 2$ this is equivalent to $$f(x_sigma 1,...,x_sigma p)=varepsilon(sigma )f(x_1,...,x_p)$$
for all $sigma in mathfrak S_p$. And such linear form are called "antisymmetric". I know that with matrices, the set of matrices are in direct sum with symmetric and antisymmetric matrices, i.e. $$mathcal M_ntimes n(mathbb R)=mathcal S_noplus mathcal A_n.$$



Question : If I denote $mathcal L_p(E)$ the space of linear form $Eto mathbb R$, $Lambda _p(E)$ the space of $p-$linear form and $mathcal S_p(E)$ the space of symmetric linear form, does it hold that $$mathcal L_p(E)=Lambda _p(E)oplus mathcal S_p(E) ?$$




Attempts



The thing is I don't find any theorem that says that. If $fin mathcal L_p(E)$, then if I denote $$f_ij(x_1,...,x_i,...,x_j,...,x_p)=f(x_1,...,x_j,...,x_i,...,x_p)$$
$$f(x_1,...,x_p)=underbracefracf+f_ij2_:=g+underbracefracf-f_ij2_:=htag*$$
then $g$ is symmetric and $h$ antisymmetric. So
$$mathcal L_p(E)=Lambda _p(E)+mathcal S_p(E) $$
looks true. But the the writing $(*)$ looks far to be unic, so I have big doubt that the sum is direct. Also, I tried : let $fin mathcal S_p(E)cap Lambda _p(E) $.
Then $f(x_1,...,x_p)=f_ij=-f_ij$ anf thus $$2f_ij=0implies f_ij=0,$$
therefore $f=0$. So it looks to be a direct sum. Since I've never sen such a result, I have doubt that my argument is correct.










share|cite|improve this question























  • Can you give some examples of an alternating and symmetric linear forms on a vector space of dimension $n>2$? You are using $n$ and $p$ in your question. Are you maybe talking about multilinear forms?
    – Christoph
    Sep 4 at 11:12











  • @Christoph: yes, multilinear form. For example, if $E=mathbb R^3$, then $f(x,y)=x_1y_1$ is a $2-$multilinear form where $x=(x_1,x_2,x_3)$ and $(y_1,y_2,y_3)$
    – user386627
    Sep 4 at 12:01












up vote
0
down vote

favorite









up vote
0
down vote

favorite











Let $E$ a $mathbb R-$vector spaces of dimension $n$. We say that $f$ is $p-$alternating if $$f(x_1,...,x_p)=0,quad (x_1,...,x_p)in E^p$$
whenever $x_i=x_j$ for some $ineq j$ (and $pleq n$). Since $mathbb R$ has a characteristic $neq 2$ this is equivalent to $$f(x_sigma 1,...,x_sigma p)=varepsilon(sigma )f(x_1,...,x_p)$$
for all $sigma in mathfrak S_p$. And such linear form are called "antisymmetric". I know that with matrices, the set of matrices are in direct sum with symmetric and antisymmetric matrices, i.e. $$mathcal M_ntimes n(mathbb R)=mathcal S_noplus mathcal A_n.$$



Question : If I denote $mathcal L_p(E)$ the space of linear form $Eto mathbb R$, $Lambda _p(E)$ the space of $p-$linear form and $mathcal S_p(E)$ the space of symmetric linear form, does it hold that $$mathcal L_p(E)=Lambda _p(E)oplus mathcal S_p(E) ?$$




Attempts



The thing is I don't find any theorem that says that. If $fin mathcal L_p(E)$, then if I denote $$f_ij(x_1,...,x_i,...,x_j,...,x_p)=f(x_1,...,x_j,...,x_i,...,x_p)$$
$$f(x_1,...,x_p)=underbracefracf+f_ij2_:=g+underbracefracf-f_ij2_:=htag*$$
then $g$ is symmetric and $h$ antisymmetric. So
$$mathcal L_p(E)=Lambda _p(E)+mathcal S_p(E) $$
looks true. But the the writing $(*)$ looks far to be unic, so I have big doubt that the sum is direct. Also, I tried : let $fin mathcal S_p(E)cap Lambda _p(E) $.
Then $f(x_1,...,x_p)=f_ij=-f_ij$ anf thus $$2f_ij=0implies f_ij=0,$$
therefore $f=0$. So it looks to be a direct sum. Since I've never sen such a result, I have doubt that my argument is correct.










share|cite|improve this question















Let $E$ a $mathbb R-$vector spaces of dimension $n$. We say that $f$ is $p-$alternating if $$f(x_1,...,x_p)=0,quad (x_1,...,x_p)in E^p$$
whenever $x_i=x_j$ for some $ineq j$ (and $pleq n$). Since $mathbb R$ has a characteristic $neq 2$ this is equivalent to $$f(x_sigma 1,...,x_sigma p)=varepsilon(sigma )f(x_1,...,x_p)$$
for all $sigma in mathfrak S_p$. And such linear form are called "antisymmetric". I know that with matrices, the set of matrices are in direct sum with symmetric and antisymmetric matrices, i.e. $$mathcal M_ntimes n(mathbb R)=mathcal S_noplus mathcal A_n.$$



Question : If I denote $mathcal L_p(E)$ the space of linear form $Eto mathbb R$, $Lambda _p(E)$ the space of $p-$linear form and $mathcal S_p(E)$ the space of symmetric linear form, does it hold that $$mathcal L_p(E)=Lambda _p(E)oplus mathcal S_p(E) ?$$




Attempts



The thing is I don't find any theorem that says that. If $fin mathcal L_p(E)$, then if I denote $$f_ij(x_1,...,x_i,...,x_j,...,x_p)=f(x_1,...,x_j,...,x_i,...,x_p)$$
$$f(x_1,...,x_p)=underbracefracf+f_ij2_:=g+underbracefracf-f_ij2_:=htag*$$
then $g$ is symmetric and $h$ antisymmetric. So
$$mathcal L_p(E)=Lambda _p(E)+mathcal S_p(E) $$
looks true. But the the writing $(*)$ looks far to be unic, so I have big doubt that the sum is direct. Also, I tried : let $fin mathcal S_p(E)cap Lambda _p(E) $.
Then $f(x_1,...,x_p)=f_ij=-f_ij$ anf thus $$2f_ij=0implies f_ij=0,$$
therefore $f=0$. So it looks to be a direct sum. Since I've never sen such a result, I have doubt that my argument is correct.







linear-algebra






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Sep 4 at 11:59

























asked Sep 4 at 10:19









user386627

809215




809215











  • Can you give some examples of an alternating and symmetric linear forms on a vector space of dimension $n>2$? You are using $n$ and $p$ in your question. Are you maybe talking about multilinear forms?
    – Christoph
    Sep 4 at 11:12











  • @Christoph: yes, multilinear form. For example, if $E=mathbb R^3$, then $f(x,y)=x_1y_1$ is a $2-$multilinear form where $x=(x_1,x_2,x_3)$ and $(y_1,y_2,y_3)$
    – user386627
    Sep 4 at 12:01
















  • Can you give some examples of an alternating and symmetric linear forms on a vector space of dimension $n>2$? You are using $n$ and $p$ in your question. Are you maybe talking about multilinear forms?
    – Christoph
    Sep 4 at 11:12











  • @Christoph: yes, multilinear form. For example, if $E=mathbb R^3$, then $f(x,y)=x_1y_1$ is a $2-$multilinear form where $x=(x_1,x_2,x_3)$ and $(y_1,y_2,y_3)$
    – user386627
    Sep 4 at 12:01















Can you give some examples of an alternating and symmetric linear forms on a vector space of dimension $n>2$? You are using $n$ and $p$ in your question. Are you maybe talking about multilinear forms?
– Christoph
Sep 4 at 11:12





Can you give some examples of an alternating and symmetric linear forms on a vector space of dimension $n>2$? You are using $n$ and $p$ in your question. Are you maybe talking about multilinear forms?
– Christoph
Sep 4 at 11:12













@Christoph: yes, multilinear form. For example, if $E=mathbb R^3$, then $f(x,y)=x_1y_1$ is a $2-$multilinear form where $x=(x_1,x_2,x_3)$ and $(y_1,y_2,y_3)$
– user386627
Sep 4 at 12:01




@Christoph: yes, multilinear form. For example, if $E=mathbb R^3$, then $f(x,y)=x_1y_1$ is a $2-$multilinear form where $x=(x_1,x_2,x_3)$ and $(y_1,y_2,y_3)$
– user386627
Sep 4 at 12:01










1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
1
down vote



accepted










$newcommandRmathbb R$Your $f+f_ij$ and $f-f_ij$ are symmetric and anti-symmetric only with respect to the $i$-th and $j$-th argument. They are not symmetric and anti-symmetric as multilinear forms.



Note that the dimensions of $mathcal L_p(R^n)$, $Lambda_p(R^n)$ and $mathcal S_p(R^n)$ are $n^p$, $binomnp$ and $binomn+p-1p$, respectively. What does this say about your conjecture that $mathcal L_p(R^n)=Lambda_p(R^n)oplusmathcal S_p(R^n)$?






share|cite|improve this answer




















  • Well see for the first part. Well, for the second part, I tried with some value, and it works... so I guess, this work :-) (but how would you right $f$ as a sum of symmetric and antisymmetric ?)
    – user386627
    Sep 4 at 12:21











  • It works for $p=2$, try any $p>2$...
    – Christoph
    Sep 4 at 12:30










Your Answer




StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function ()
return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function ()
StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix)
StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
);
);
, "mathjax-editing");

StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "69"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);

else
createEditor();

);

function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
convertImagesToLinks: true,
noModals: false,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: 10,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);



);













 

draft saved


draft discarded


















StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f2904870%2falternating-linear-forms-are-they-in-direct-sum-with-symmetric-linear-form%23new-answer', 'question_page');

);

Post as a guest






























1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes








1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes








up vote
1
down vote



accepted










$newcommandRmathbb R$Your $f+f_ij$ and $f-f_ij$ are symmetric and anti-symmetric only with respect to the $i$-th and $j$-th argument. They are not symmetric and anti-symmetric as multilinear forms.



Note that the dimensions of $mathcal L_p(R^n)$, $Lambda_p(R^n)$ and $mathcal S_p(R^n)$ are $n^p$, $binomnp$ and $binomn+p-1p$, respectively. What does this say about your conjecture that $mathcal L_p(R^n)=Lambda_p(R^n)oplusmathcal S_p(R^n)$?






share|cite|improve this answer




















  • Well see for the first part. Well, for the second part, I tried with some value, and it works... so I guess, this work :-) (but how would you right $f$ as a sum of symmetric and antisymmetric ?)
    – user386627
    Sep 4 at 12:21











  • It works for $p=2$, try any $p>2$...
    – Christoph
    Sep 4 at 12:30














up vote
1
down vote



accepted










$newcommandRmathbb R$Your $f+f_ij$ and $f-f_ij$ are symmetric and anti-symmetric only with respect to the $i$-th and $j$-th argument. They are not symmetric and anti-symmetric as multilinear forms.



Note that the dimensions of $mathcal L_p(R^n)$, $Lambda_p(R^n)$ and $mathcal S_p(R^n)$ are $n^p$, $binomnp$ and $binomn+p-1p$, respectively. What does this say about your conjecture that $mathcal L_p(R^n)=Lambda_p(R^n)oplusmathcal S_p(R^n)$?






share|cite|improve this answer




















  • Well see for the first part. Well, for the second part, I tried with some value, and it works... so I guess, this work :-) (but how would you right $f$ as a sum of symmetric and antisymmetric ?)
    – user386627
    Sep 4 at 12:21











  • It works for $p=2$, try any $p>2$...
    – Christoph
    Sep 4 at 12:30












up vote
1
down vote



accepted







up vote
1
down vote



accepted






$newcommandRmathbb R$Your $f+f_ij$ and $f-f_ij$ are symmetric and anti-symmetric only with respect to the $i$-th and $j$-th argument. They are not symmetric and anti-symmetric as multilinear forms.



Note that the dimensions of $mathcal L_p(R^n)$, $Lambda_p(R^n)$ and $mathcal S_p(R^n)$ are $n^p$, $binomnp$ and $binomn+p-1p$, respectively. What does this say about your conjecture that $mathcal L_p(R^n)=Lambda_p(R^n)oplusmathcal S_p(R^n)$?






share|cite|improve this answer












$newcommandRmathbb R$Your $f+f_ij$ and $f-f_ij$ are symmetric and anti-symmetric only with respect to the $i$-th and $j$-th argument. They are not symmetric and anti-symmetric as multilinear forms.



Note that the dimensions of $mathcal L_p(R^n)$, $Lambda_p(R^n)$ and $mathcal S_p(R^n)$ are $n^p$, $binomnp$ and $binomn+p-1p$, respectively. What does this say about your conjecture that $mathcal L_p(R^n)=Lambda_p(R^n)oplusmathcal S_p(R^n)$?







share|cite|improve this answer












share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer










answered Sep 4 at 12:17









Christoph

10.9k1240




10.9k1240











  • Well see for the first part. Well, for the second part, I tried with some value, and it works... so I guess, this work :-) (but how would you right $f$ as a sum of symmetric and antisymmetric ?)
    – user386627
    Sep 4 at 12:21











  • It works for $p=2$, try any $p>2$...
    – Christoph
    Sep 4 at 12:30
















  • Well see for the first part. Well, for the second part, I tried with some value, and it works... so I guess, this work :-) (but how would you right $f$ as a sum of symmetric and antisymmetric ?)
    – user386627
    Sep 4 at 12:21











  • It works for $p=2$, try any $p>2$...
    – Christoph
    Sep 4 at 12:30















Well see for the first part. Well, for the second part, I tried with some value, and it works... so I guess, this work :-) (but how would you right $f$ as a sum of symmetric and antisymmetric ?)
– user386627
Sep 4 at 12:21





Well see for the first part. Well, for the second part, I tried with some value, and it works... so I guess, this work :-) (but how would you right $f$ as a sum of symmetric and antisymmetric ?)
– user386627
Sep 4 at 12:21













It works for $p=2$, try any $p>2$...
– Christoph
Sep 4 at 12:30




It works for $p=2$, try any $p>2$...
– Christoph
Sep 4 at 12:30

















 

draft saved


draft discarded















































 


draft saved


draft discarded














StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f2904870%2falternating-linear-forms-are-they-in-direct-sum-with-symmetric-linear-form%23new-answer', 'question_page');

);

Post as a guest













































































這個網誌中的熱門文章

How to combine Bézier curves to a surface?

Mutual Information Always Non-negative

Why am i infinitely getting the same tweet with the Twitter Search API?