No continuous function switches $mathbbQ$ and the irrationals
Clash Royale CLAN TAG#URR8PPP
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Is there a way to prove the following result using connectedness?
Result:
Let $J=mathbbR setminus mathbbQ$ denote the set of irrational numbers. There is no continuous map $f: mathbbR rightarrow mathbbR$ such that $f(mathbbQ) subseteq J$ and $f(J) subseteq mathbbQ$.
http://planetmath.org/encyclopedia/ThereIsNoContinuousFunctionThatSwitchesTheRationalNumbersWithTheIrrationalNumbers.html
real-analysis functions continuity
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show 1 more comment
up vote
35
down vote
favorite
Is there a way to prove the following result using connectedness?
Result:
Let $J=mathbbR setminus mathbbQ$ denote the set of irrational numbers. There is no continuous map $f: mathbbR rightarrow mathbbR$ such that $f(mathbbQ) subseteq J$ and $f(J) subseteq mathbbQ$.
http://planetmath.org/encyclopedia/ThereIsNoContinuousFunctionThatSwitchesTheRationalNumbersWithTheIrrationalNumbers.html
real-analysis functions continuity
1
Please make your post self-contained by incorporating the statement. It takes forever for planetmath to render for me. Maintaining the link is fine, so one can see how it is proved there.
â Ross Millikan
Aug 4 '11 at 18:18
@Ross Millikan: just edited it.
â user10
Aug 4 '11 at 18:22
1
@user10 actually the link is down.
â Gabriel Romon
Feb 21 '14 at 23:56
I searched planetmath to find the original linked argument; I think it is here and here If it moves again but stays on the site, a Google search such assite:planetmath.org switch rational irrational baire
will find it.
â Jonas Meyer
Jul 7 '16 at 14:42
Linked.
â Alex Ravsky
Sep 23 '17 at 1:05
 |Â
show 1 more comment
up vote
35
down vote
favorite
up vote
35
down vote
favorite
Is there a way to prove the following result using connectedness?
Result:
Let $J=mathbbR setminus mathbbQ$ denote the set of irrational numbers. There is no continuous map $f: mathbbR rightarrow mathbbR$ such that $f(mathbbQ) subseteq J$ and $f(J) subseteq mathbbQ$.
http://planetmath.org/encyclopedia/ThereIsNoContinuousFunctionThatSwitchesTheRationalNumbersWithTheIrrationalNumbers.html
real-analysis functions continuity
Is there a way to prove the following result using connectedness?
Result:
Let $J=mathbbR setminus mathbbQ$ denote the set of irrational numbers. There is no continuous map $f: mathbbR rightarrow mathbbR$ such that $f(mathbbQ) subseteq J$ and $f(J) subseteq mathbbQ$.
http://planetmath.org/encyclopedia/ThereIsNoContinuousFunctionThatSwitchesTheRationalNumbersWithTheIrrationalNumbers.html
real-analysis functions continuity
edited Feb 23 '14 at 18:17
Nick Peterson
25.5k23758
25.5k23758
asked Aug 4 '11 at 18:11
user10
2,5881734
2,5881734
1
Please make your post self-contained by incorporating the statement. It takes forever for planetmath to render for me. Maintaining the link is fine, so one can see how it is proved there.
â Ross Millikan
Aug 4 '11 at 18:18
@Ross Millikan: just edited it.
â user10
Aug 4 '11 at 18:22
1
@user10 actually the link is down.
â Gabriel Romon
Feb 21 '14 at 23:56
I searched planetmath to find the original linked argument; I think it is here and here If it moves again but stays on the site, a Google search such assite:planetmath.org switch rational irrational baire
will find it.
â Jonas Meyer
Jul 7 '16 at 14:42
Linked.
â Alex Ravsky
Sep 23 '17 at 1:05
 |Â
show 1 more comment
1
Please make your post self-contained by incorporating the statement. It takes forever for planetmath to render for me. Maintaining the link is fine, so one can see how it is proved there.
â Ross Millikan
Aug 4 '11 at 18:18
@Ross Millikan: just edited it.
â user10
Aug 4 '11 at 18:22
1
@user10 actually the link is down.
â Gabriel Romon
Feb 21 '14 at 23:56
I searched planetmath to find the original linked argument; I think it is here and here If it moves again but stays on the site, a Google search such assite:planetmath.org switch rational irrational baire
will find it.
â Jonas Meyer
Jul 7 '16 at 14:42
Linked.
â Alex Ravsky
Sep 23 '17 at 1:05
1
1
Please make your post self-contained by incorporating the statement. It takes forever for planetmath to render for me. Maintaining the link is fine, so one can see how it is proved there.
â Ross Millikan
Aug 4 '11 at 18:18
Please make your post self-contained by incorporating the statement. It takes forever for planetmath to render for me. Maintaining the link is fine, so one can see how it is proved there.
â Ross Millikan
Aug 4 '11 at 18:18
@Ross Millikan: just edited it.
â user10
Aug 4 '11 at 18:22
@Ross Millikan: just edited it.
â user10
Aug 4 '11 at 18:22
1
1
@user10 actually the link is down.
â Gabriel Romon
Feb 21 '14 at 23:56
@user10 actually the link is down.
â Gabriel Romon
Feb 21 '14 at 23:56
I searched planetmath to find the original linked argument; I think it is here and here If it moves again but stays on the site, a Google search such as
site:planetmath.org switch rational irrational baire
will find it.â Jonas Meyer
Jul 7 '16 at 14:42
I searched planetmath to find the original linked argument; I think it is here and here If it moves again but stays on the site, a Google search such as
site:planetmath.org switch rational irrational baire
will find it.â Jonas Meyer
Jul 7 '16 at 14:42
Linked.
â Alex Ravsky
Sep 23 '17 at 1:05
Linked.
â Alex Ravsky
Sep 23 '17 at 1:05
 |Â
show 1 more comment
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
up vote
54
down vote
accepted
Here's a way to use connectedness, really amounting to using the intermediate value theorem.
If $f(mathbbQ)subseteq mathbb Rsetminusmathbb Q$ and $f(mathbb Rsetminus mathbb Q)subseteqmathbb Q$, then $f(0)neq f(sqrt 2)$. Because intervals are connected in $mathbb R$ and $f$ is continuous, $f[0,sqrt 2]$ is connected. Because connected subsets of $mathbb R$ are intervals, $f[0,sqrt 2]$ contains the interval $left[minf(0),f(sqrt 2),maxf(0),f(sqrt 2)right]$. The set of irrational numbers in this interval is uncountable, yet contained in the countable set $f(mathbb Q)$, a contradiction.
A slightly briefer outline: The hypothesis implies that $f$ is nonconstant with range contained in the countable set $mathbb Qcup f(mathbb Q)$, whereas the intermediate value theorem and uncountability of $mathbb R$ imply that a nonconstant continuous function $f:mathbb Rtomathbb R$ has uncountable range.
thank you, beautiful argument.
â user10
Aug 4 '11 at 18:31
4
More elementary than a proof using Baire Category!
â GEdgar
Aug 4 '11 at 18:52
3
I like the second paragraph version
â Hagen von Eitzen
Dec 29 '13 at 23:13
@Jonas Meyer How to prove rigoruosly that $f(mathbbQ)$ is countable...a hint would do...I have to do this as a homework question ...i have understood the general idea but unable to express rigoruously the above cardinality argument..thanks
â spaceman_spiff
Mar 22 '17 at 9:23
2
@spaceman_spiff: If $A=a_1,a_2,a_3,ldots$ is a countable set and $f$ is a function defined on $A$, then $f(A)=f(a_1),f(a_2),f(a_3),ldots$ is a countable set.
â Jonas Meyer
Mar 23 '17 at 1:35
add a comment |Â
up vote
15
down vote
Suppose there is such a mapping $f$. Consider $g:[0,1]to mathbbR$ defined by $$g(x)=f(x)-x.$$ Suppose that $g(x)in mathbbQ$ for some $xin [0,1]$. Then:
- if $xin J$, then $g(x)-f(x)in mathbbQ$, i.e. $xin mathbbQ$.
- if $xin mathbbQ$, then $g(x)+xin mathbbQ$, i.e. $f(x)in
mathbbQ$, i.e. $xin J$
both produce contradictions. Thus $g([0,1])subseteq J$. Since $f$ is continuous, $g$ is continuous, and then $g([0,1])=[min g,max g]$. If $g$ is not constant then there exists $r$ a rational in $[min g,max g]$. By the intermediate value theorem, there exists $zin[0,1]$ such that $g(z)=r$, but this is impossible because $g([0,1])subseteq J$. Therefore, $g$ must be constant and then $$f(x)=c+x$$ with $cin J$. Particularly, $f(c)=2c$ which, as Jonas pointed, is contradictory to the hypothesis. Therefore $f$ can not exist.
1
A quicker way to finish once you have $f(x)=c+x$ is to note that $f(c)=2c$ is irrational, contradicting the hypothesis. +1: This is a nice alternative that can handle a more general situation. Note that cardinality need not be considered, and in fact $mathbb Q$ can be replaced by any subgroup of $mathbb R$.
â Jonas Meyer
Aug 4 '11 at 19:43
yes, that's true and thank you @Jonas, I will correct for the sake of simplicity.
â leo
Aug 4 '11 at 19:48
1
To clarify my previous comment, I should have said that this argument applies verbatim if $mathbb Q$ is replaced by any dense subgroup of $mathbb R$ containing $2$. The last restriction could be handled by rescaling if necessary.
â Jonas Meyer
Aug 4 '11 at 20:06
Yes, I had some doubts after I wrote my comment.
â leo
Aug 4 '11 at 20:39
Hey Leo, how do you conclude that $g([0,1]) subset $mathbbI$ from the two contradictions above?
â Kamil
Jul 7 '16 at 9:24
 |Â
show 1 more comment
up vote
3
down vote
Another simple proof:
Because $f$ is continuous and by connectedness, $f([0,1])=[a,b]$ for some $a<b$. Now define $$g : x mapsto frac1p left(f(x)-q right), textwhere p,q in mathbbQ.$$
In particular, $g(x)$ is rational iff $f(x)$ is rational, i.e. $g$ has the same property that $f$.
Notice that $g([0,1])= left[ fraca-qp, fracb-qp right]$. Therefore, if $b-1 leq q leq a$ and $p geq b-q$ then $g : [0,1] to [0,1]$ and classically $g$ has a fixed point $x_0 in [0,1]$.
Finally we deduce that $x_0 in mathbbQ$ iff $x_0 = g(x_0) notin mathbbQ$, a contradiction.
1
This uses compactness as well as connectedness of $[0,1]$ to conclude that $f([0,1])$ is a closed, bounded interval.
â Jonas Meyer
Jul 23 '13 at 15:10
Very nice proof.
â leo
Dec 30 '13 at 1:51
If $f([0,1])=[-1,1]$, then you are suggesting to consider $g(x)=f(x)$ in order to find a function $[0,1] to [0,1]$, so it doesn't seem to work.
â Seirios
Aug 12 '15 at 5:49
Yes, you are right. Define $g(x)=leftlvertdfracf(x)leftlceil max(leftlvert a rightrvert,leftlvert brightrvert)rightrceilrightrvert$. I think that it will work.
â user 170039
Aug 13 '15 at 13:48
I think so. But now, your solution does not seem to be really simpler than the original.
â Seirios
Aug 14 '15 at 6:46
add a comment |Â
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
54
down vote
accepted
Here's a way to use connectedness, really amounting to using the intermediate value theorem.
If $f(mathbbQ)subseteq mathbb Rsetminusmathbb Q$ and $f(mathbb Rsetminus mathbb Q)subseteqmathbb Q$, then $f(0)neq f(sqrt 2)$. Because intervals are connected in $mathbb R$ and $f$ is continuous, $f[0,sqrt 2]$ is connected. Because connected subsets of $mathbb R$ are intervals, $f[0,sqrt 2]$ contains the interval $left[minf(0),f(sqrt 2),maxf(0),f(sqrt 2)right]$. The set of irrational numbers in this interval is uncountable, yet contained in the countable set $f(mathbb Q)$, a contradiction.
A slightly briefer outline: The hypothesis implies that $f$ is nonconstant with range contained in the countable set $mathbb Qcup f(mathbb Q)$, whereas the intermediate value theorem and uncountability of $mathbb R$ imply that a nonconstant continuous function $f:mathbb Rtomathbb R$ has uncountable range.
thank you, beautiful argument.
â user10
Aug 4 '11 at 18:31
4
More elementary than a proof using Baire Category!
â GEdgar
Aug 4 '11 at 18:52
3
I like the second paragraph version
â Hagen von Eitzen
Dec 29 '13 at 23:13
@Jonas Meyer How to prove rigoruosly that $f(mathbbQ)$ is countable...a hint would do...I have to do this as a homework question ...i have understood the general idea but unable to express rigoruously the above cardinality argument..thanks
â spaceman_spiff
Mar 22 '17 at 9:23
2
@spaceman_spiff: If $A=a_1,a_2,a_3,ldots$ is a countable set and $f$ is a function defined on $A$, then $f(A)=f(a_1),f(a_2),f(a_3),ldots$ is a countable set.
â Jonas Meyer
Mar 23 '17 at 1:35
add a comment |Â
up vote
54
down vote
accepted
Here's a way to use connectedness, really amounting to using the intermediate value theorem.
If $f(mathbbQ)subseteq mathbb Rsetminusmathbb Q$ and $f(mathbb Rsetminus mathbb Q)subseteqmathbb Q$, then $f(0)neq f(sqrt 2)$. Because intervals are connected in $mathbb R$ and $f$ is continuous, $f[0,sqrt 2]$ is connected. Because connected subsets of $mathbb R$ are intervals, $f[0,sqrt 2]$ contains the interval $left[minf(0),f(sqrt 2),maxf(0),f(sqrt 2)right]$. The set of irrational numbers in this interval is uncountable, yet contained in the countable set $f(mathbb Q)$, a contradiction.
A slightly briefer outline: The hypothesis implies that $f$ is nonconstant with range contained in the countable set $mathbb Qcup f(mathbb Q)$, whereas the intermediate value theorem and uncountability of $mathbb R$ imply that a nonconstant continuous function $f:mathbb Rtomathbb R$ has uncountable range.
thank you, beautiful argument.
â user10
Aug 4 '11 at 18:31
4
More elementary than a proof using Baire Category!
â GEdgar
Aug 4 '11 at 18:52
3
I like the second paragraph version
â Hagen von Eitzen
Dec 29 '13 at 23:13
@Jonas Meyer How to prove rigoruosly that $f(mathbbQ)$ is countable...a hint would do...I have to do this as a homework question ...i have understood the general idea but unable to express rigoruously the above cardinality argument..thanks
â spaceman_spiff
Mar 22 '17 at 9:23
2
@spaceman_spiff: If $A=a_1,a_2,a_3,ldots$ is a countable set and $f$ is a function defined on $A$, then $f(A)=f(a_1),f(a_2),f(a_3),ldots$ is a countable set.
â Jonas Meyer
Mar 23 '17 at 1:35
add a comment |Â
up vote
54
down vote
accepted
up vote
54
down vote
accepted
Here's a way to use connectedness, really amounting to using the intermediate value theorem.
If $f(mathbbQ)subseteq mathbb Rsetminusmathbb Q$ and $f(mathbb Rsetminus mathbb Q)subseteqmathbb Q$, then $f(0)neq f(sqrt 2)$. Because intervals are connected in $mathbb R$ and $f$ is continuous, $f[0,sqrt 2]$ is connected. Because connected subsets of $mathbb R$ are intervals, $f[0,sqrt 2]$ contains the interval $left[minf(0),f(sqrt 2),maxf(0),f(sqrt 2)right]$. The set of irrational numbers in this interval is uncountable, yet contained in the countable set $f(mathbb Q)$, a contradiction.
A slightly briefer outline: The hypothesis implies that $f$ is nonconstant with range contained in the countable set $mathbb Qcup f(mathbb Q)$, whereas the intermediate value theorem and uncountability of $mathbb R$ imply that a nonconstant continuous function $f:mathbb Rtomathbb R$ has uncountable range.
Here's a way to use connectedness, really amounting to using the intermediate value theorem.
If $f(mathbbQ)subseteq mathbb Rsetminusmathbb Q$ and $f(mathbb Rsetminus mathbb Q)subseteqmathbb Q$, then $f(0)neq f(sqrt 2)$. Because intervals are connected in $mathbb R$ and $f$ is continuous, $f[0,sqrt 2]$ is connected. Because connected subsets of $mathbb R$ are intervals, $f[0,sqrt 2]$ contains the interval $left[minf(0),f(sqrt 2),maxf(0),f(sqrt 2)right]$. The set of irrational numbers in this interval is uncountable, yet contained in the countable set $f(mathbb Q)$, a contradiction.
A slightly briefer outline: The hypothesis implies that $f$ is nonconstant with range contained in the countable set $mathbb Qcup f(mathbb Q)$, whereas the intermediate value theorem and uncountability of $mathbb R$ imply that a nonconstant continuous function $f:mathbb Rtomathbb R$ has uncountable range.
edited Aug 4 '11 at 18:45
answered Aug 4 '11 at 18:22
Jonas Meyer
39.1k6141246
39.1k6141246
thank you, beautiful argument.
â user10
Aug 4 '11 at 18:31
4
More elementary than a proof using Baire Category!
â GEdgar
Aug 4 '11 at 18:52
3
I like the second paragraph version
â Hagen von Eitzen
Dec 29 '13 at 23:13
@Jonas Meyer How to prove rigoruosly that $f(mathbbQ)$ is countable...a hint would do...I have to do this as a homework question ...i have understood the general idea but unable to express rigoruously the above cardinality argument..thanks
â spaceman_spiff
Mar 22 '17 at 9:23
2
@spaceman_spiff: If $A=a_1,a_2,a_3,ldots$ is a countable set and $f$ is a function defined on $A$, then $f(A)=f(a_1),f(a_2),f(a_3),ldots$ is a countable set.
â Jonas Meyer
Mar 23 '17 at 1:35
add a comment |Â
thank you, beautiful argument.
â user10
Aug 4 '11 at 18:31
4
More elementary than a proof using Baire Category!
â GEdgar
Aug 4 '11 at 18:52
3
I like the second paragraph version
â Hagen von Eitzen
Dec 29 '13 at 23:13
@Jonas Meyer How to prove rigoruosly that $f(mathbbQ)$ is countable...a hint would do...I have to do this as a homework question ...i have understood the general idea but unable to express rigoruously the above cardinality argument..thanks
â spaceman_spiff
Mar 22 '17 at 9:23
2
@spaceman_spiff: If $A=a_1,a_2,a_3,ldots$ is a countable set and $f$ is a function defined on $A$, then $f(A)=f(a_1),f(a_2),f(a_3),ldots$ is a countable set.
â Jonas Meyer
Mar 23 '17 at 1:35
thank you, beautiful argument.
â user10
Aug 4 '11 at 18:31
thank you, beautiful argument.
â user10
Aug 4 '11 at 18:31
4
4
More elementary than a proof using Baire Category!
â GEdgar
Aug 4 '11 at 18:52
More elementary than a proof using Baire Category!
â GEdgar
Aug 4 '11 at 18:52
3
3
I like the second paragraph version
â Hagen von Eitzen
Dec 29 '13 at 23:13
I like the second paragraph version
â Hagen von Eitzen
Dec 29 '13 at 23:13
@Jonas Meyer How to prove rigoruosly that $f(mathbbQ)$ is countable...a hint would do...I have to do this as a homework question ...i have understood the general idea but unable to express rigoruously the above cardinality argument..thanks
â spaceman_spiff
Mar 22 '17 at 9:23
@Jonas Meyer How to prove rigoruosly that $f(mathbbQ)$ is countable...a hint would do...I have to do this as a homework question ...i have understood the general idea but unable to express rigoruously the above cardinality argument..thanks
â spaceman_spiff
Mar 22 '17 at 9:23
2
2
@spaceman_spiff: If $A=a_1,a_2,a_3,ldots$ is a countable set and $f$ is a function defined on $A$, then $f(A)=f(a_1),f(a_2),f(a_3),ldots$ is a countable set.
â Jonas Meyer
Mar 23 '17 at 1:35
@spaceman_spiff: If $A=a_1,a_2,a_3,ldots$ is a countable set and $f$ is a function defined on $A$, then $f(A)=f(a_1),f(a_2),f(a_3),ldots$ is a countable set.
â Jonas Meyer
Mar 23 '17 at 1:35
add a comment |Â
up vote
15
down vote
Suppose there is such a mapping $f$. Consider $g:[0,1]to mathbbR$ defined by $$g(x)=f(x)-x.$$ Suppose that $g(x)in mathbbQ$ for some $xin [0,1]$. Then:
- if $xin J$, then $g(x)-f(x)in mathbbQ$, i.e. $xin mathbbQ$.
- if $xin mathbbQ$, then $g(x)+xin mathbbQ$, i.e. $f(x)in
mathbbQ$, i.e. $xin J$
both produce contradictions. Thus $g([0,1])subseteq J$. Since $f$ is continuous, $g$ is continuous, and then $g([0,1])=[min g,max g]$. If $g$ is not constant then there exists $r$ a rational in $[min g,max g]$. By the intermediate value theorem, there exists $zin[0,1]$ such that $g(z)=r$, but this is impossible because $g([0,1])subseteq J$. Therefore, $g$ must be constant and then $$f(x)=c+x$$ with $cin J$. Particularly, $f(c)=2c$ which, as Jonas pointed, is contradictory to the hypothesis. Therefore $f$ can not exist.
1
A quicker way to finish once you have $f(x)=c+x$ is to note that $f(c)=2c$ is irrational, contradicting the hypothesis. +1: This is a nice alternative that can handle a more general situation. Note that cardinality need not be considered, and in fact $mathbb Q$ can be replaced by any subgroup of $mathbb R$.
â Jonas Meyer
Aug 4 '11 at 19:43
yes, that's true and thank you @Jonas, I will correct for the sake of simplicity.
â leo
Aug 4 '11 at 19:48
1
To clarify my previous comment, I should have said that this argument applies verbatim if $mathbb Q$ is replaced by any dense subgroup of $mathbb R$ containing $2$. The last restriction could be handled by rescaling if necessary.
â Jonas Meyer
Aug 4 '11 at 20:06
Yes, I had some doubts after I wrote my comment.
â leo
Aug 4 '11 at 20:39
Hey Leo, how do you conclude that $g([0,1]) subset $mathbbI$ from the two contradictions above?
â Kamil
Jul 7 '16 at 9:24
 |Â
show 1 more comment
up vote
15
down vote
Suppose there is such a mapping $f$. Consider $g:[0,1]to mathbbR$ defined by $$g(x)=f(x)-x.$$ Suppose that $g(x)in mathbbQ$ for some $xin [0,1]$. Then:
- if $xin J$, then $g(x)-f(x)in mathbbQ$, i.e. $xin mathbbQ$.
- if $xin mathbbQ$, then $g(x)+xin mathbbQ$, i.e. $f(x)in
mathbbQ$, i.e. $xin J$
both produce contradictions. Thus $g([0,1])subseteq J$. Since $f$ is continuous, $g$ is continuous, and then $g([0,1])=[min g,max g]$. If $g$ is not constant then there exists $r$ a rational in $[min g,max g]$. By the intermediate value theorem, there exists $zin[0,1]$ such that $g(z)=r$, but this is impossible because $g([0,1])subseteq J$. Therefore, $g$ must be constant and then $$f(x)=c+x$$ with $cin J$. Particularly, $f(c)=2c$ which, as Jonas pointed, is contradictory to the hypothesis. Therefore $f$ can not exist.
1
A quicker way to finish once you have $f(x)=c+x$ is to note that $f(c)=2c$ is irrational, contradicting the hypothesis. +1: This is a nice alternative that can handle a more general situation. Note that cardinality need not be considered, and in fact $mathbb Q$ can be replaced by any subgroup of $mathbb R$.
â Jonas Meyer
Aug 4 '11 at 19:43
yes, that's true and thank you @Jonas, I will correct for the sake of simplicity.
â leo
Aug 4 '11 at 19:48
1
To clarify my previous comment, I should have said that this argument applies verbatim if $mathbb Q$ is replaced by any dense subgroup of $mathbb R$ containing $2$. The last restriction could be handled by rescaling if necessary.
â Jonas Meyer
Aug 4 '11 at 20:06
Yes, I had some doubts after I wrote my comment.
â leo
Aug 4 '11 at 20:39
Hey Leo, how do you conclude that $g([0,1]) subset $mathbbI$ from the two contradictions above?
â Kamil
Jul 7 '16 at 9:24
 |Â
show 1 more comment
up vote
15
down vote
up vote
15
down vote
Suppose there is such a mapping $f$. Consider $g:[0,1]to mathbbR$ defined by $$g(x)=f(x)-x.$$ Suppose that $g(x)in mathbbQ$ for some $xin [0,1]$. Then:
- if $xin J$, then $g(x)-f(x)in mathbbQ$, i.e. $xin mathbbQ$.
- if $xin mathbbQ$, then $g(x)+xin mathbbQ$, i.e. $f(x)in
mathbbQ$, i.e. $xin J$
both produce contradictions. Thus $g([0,1])subseteq J$. Since $f$ is continuous, $g$ is continuous, and then $g([0,1])=[min g,max g]$. If $g$ is not constant then there exists $r$ a rational in $[min g,max g]$. By the intermediate value theorem, there exists $zin[0,1]$ such that $g(z)=r$, but this is impossible because $g([0,1])subseteq J$. Therefore, $g$ must be constant and then $$f(x)=c+x$$ with $cin J$. Particularly, $f(c)=2c$ which, as Jonas pointed, is contradictory to the hypothesis. Therefore $f$ can not exist.
Suppose there is such a mapping $f$. Consider $g:[0,1]to mathbbR$ defined by $$g(x)=f(x)-x.$$ Suppose that $g(x)in mathbbQ$ for some $xin [0,1]$. Then:
- if $xin J$, then $g(x)-f(x)in mathbbQ$, i.e. $xin mathbbQ$.
- if $xin mathbbQ$, then $g(x)+xin mathbbQ$, i.e. $f(x)in
mathbbQ$, i.e. $xin J$
both produce contradictions. Thus $g([0,1])subseteq J$. Since $f$ is continuous, $g$ is continuous, and then $g([0,1])=[min g,max g]$. If $g$ is not constant then there exists $r$ a rational in $[min g,max g]$. By the intermediate value theorem, there exists $zin[0,1]$ such that $g(z)=r$, but this is impossible because $g([0,1])subseteq J$. Therefore, $g$ must be constant and then $$f(x)=c+x$$ with $cin J$. Particularly, $f(c)=2c$ which, as Jonas pointed, is contradictory to the hypothesis. Therefore $f$ can not exist.
edited Jul 22 '16 at 18:31
answered Aug 4 '11 at 19:30
leo
5,77533179
5,77533179
1
A quicker way to finish once you have $f(x)=c+x$ is to note that $f(c)=2c$ is irrational, contradicting the hypothesis. +1: This is a nice alternative that can handle a more general situation. Note that cardinality need not be considered, and in fact $mathbb Q$ can be replaced by any subgroup of $mathbb R$.
â Jonas Meyer
Aug 4 '11 at 19:43
yes, that's true and thank you @Jonas, I will correct for the sake of simplicity.
â leo
Aug 4 '11 at 19:48
1
To clarify my previous comment, I should have said that this argument applies verbatim if $mathbb Q$ is replaced by any dense subgroup of $mathbb R$ containing $2$. The last restriction could be handled by rescaling if necessary.
â Jonas Meyer
Aug 4 '11 at 20:06
Yes, I had some doubts after I wrote my comment.
â leo
Aug 4 '11 at 20:39
Hey Leo, how do you conclude that $g([0,1]) subset $mathbbI$ from the two contradictions above?
â Kamil
Jul 7 '16 at 9:24
 |Â
show 1 more comment
1
A quicker way to finish once you have $f(x)=c+x$ is to note that $f(c)=2c$ is irrational, contradicting the hypothesis. +1: This is a nice alternative that can handle a more general situation. Note that cardinality need not be considered, and in fact $mathbb Q$ can be replaced by any subgroup of $mathbb R$.
â Jonas Meyer
Aug 4 '11 at 19:43
yes, that's true and thank you @Jonas, I will correct for the sake of simplicity.
â leo
Aug 4 '11 at 19:48
1
To clarify my previous comment, I should have said that this argument applies verbatim if $mathbb Q$ is replaced by any dense subgroup of $mathbb R$ containing $2$. The last restriction could be handled by rescaling if necessary.
â Jonas Meyer
Aug 4 '11 at 20:06
Yes, I had some doubts after I wrote my comment.
â leo
Aug 4 '11 at 20:39
Hey Leo, how do you conclude that $g([0,1]) subset $mathbbI$ from the two contradictions above?
â Kamil
Jul 7 '16 at 9:24
1
1
A quicker way to finish once you have $f(x)=c+x$ is to note that $f(c)=2c$ is irrational, contradicting the hypothesis. +1: This is a nice alternative that can handle a more general situation. Note that cardinality need not be considered, and in fact $mathbb Q$ can be replaced by any subgroup of $mathbb R$.
â Jonas Meyer
Aug 4 '11 at 19:43
A quicker way to finish once you have $f(x)=c+x$ is to note that $f(c)=2c$ is irrational, contradicting the hypothesis. +1: This is a nice alternative that can handle a more general situation. Note that cardinality need not be considered, and in fact $mathbb Q$ can be replaced by any subgroup of $mathbb R$.
â Jonas Meyer
Aug 4 '11 at 19:43
yes, that's true and thank you @Jonas, I will correct for the sake of simplicity.
â leo
Aug 4 '11 at 19:48
yes, that's true and thank you @Jonas, I will correct for the sake of simplicity.
â leo
Aug 4 '11 at 19:48
1
1
To clarify my previous comment, I should have said that this argument applies verbatim if $mathbb Q$ is replaced by any dense subgroup of $mathbb R$ containing $2$. The last restriction could be handled by rescaling if necessary.
â Jonas Meyer
Aug 4 '11 at 20:06
To clarify my previous comment, I should have said that this argument applies verbatim if $mathbb Q$ is replaced by any dense subgroup of $mathbb R$ containing $2$. The last restriction could be handled by rescaling if necessary.
â Jonas Meyer
Aug 4 '11 at 20:06
Yes, I had some doubts after I wrote my comment.
â leo
Aug 4 '11 at 20:39
Yes, I had some doubts after I wrote my comment.
â leo
Aug 4 '11 at 20:39
Hey Leo, how do you conclude that $g([0,1]) subset $mathbbI$ from the two contradictions above?
â Kamil
Jul 7 '16 at 9:24
Hey Leo, how do you conclude that $g([0,1]) subset $mathbbI$ from the two contradictions above?
â Kamil
Jul 7 '16 at 9:24
 |Â
show 1 more comment
up vote
3
down vote
Another simple proof:
Because $f$ is continuous and by connectedness, $f([0,1])=[a,b]$ for some $a<b$. Now define $$g : x mapsto frac1p left(f(x)-q right), textwhere p,q in mathbbQ.$$
In particular, $g(x)$ is rational iff $f(x)$ is rational, i.e. $g$ has the same property that $f$.
Notice that $g([0,1])= left[ fraca-qp, fracb-qp right]$. Therefore, if $b-1 leq q leq a$ and $p geq b-q$ then $g : [0,1] to [0,1]$ and classically $g$ has a fixed point $x_0 in [0,1]$.
Finally we deduce that $x_0 in mathbbQ$ iff $x_0 = g(x_0) notin mathbbQ$, a contradiction.
1
This uses compactness as well as connectedness of $[0,1]$ to conclude that $f([0,1])$ is a closed, bounded interval.
â Jonas Meyer
Jul 23 '13 at 15:10
Very nice proof.
â leo
Dec 30 '13 at 1:51
If $f([0,1])=[-1,1]$, then you are suggesting to consider $g(x)=f(x)$ in order to find a function $[0,1] to [0,1]$, so it doesn't seem to work.
â Seirios
Aug 12 '15 at 5:49
Yes, you are right. Define $g(x)=leftlvertdfracf(x)leftlceil max(leftlvert a rightrvert,leftlvert brightrvert)rightrceilrightrvert$. I think that it will work.
â user 170039
Aug 13 '15 at 13:48
I think so. But now, your solution does not seem to be really simpler than the original.
â Seirios
Aug 14 '15 at 6:46
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
Another simple proof:
Because $f$ is continuous and by connectedness, $f([0,1])=[a,b]$ for some $a<b$. Now define $$g : x mapsto frac1p left(f(x)-q right), textwhere p,q in mathbbQ.$$
In particular, $g(x)$ is rational iff $f(x)$ is rational, i.e. $g$ has the same property that $f$.
Notice that $g([0,1])= left[ fraca-qp, fracb-qp right]$. Therefore, if $b-1 leq q leq a$ and $p geq b-q$ then $g : [0,1] to [0,1]$ and classically $g$ has a fixed point $x_0 in [0,1]$.
Finally we deduce that $x_0 in mathbbQ$ iff $x_0 = g(x_0) notin mathbbQ$, a contradiction.
1
This uses compactness as well as connectedness of $[0,1]$ to conclude that $f([0,1])$ is a closed, bounded interval.
â Jonas Meyer
Jul 23 '13 at 15:10
Very nice proof.
â leo
Dec 30 '13 at 1:51
If $f([0,1])=[-1,1]$, then you are suggesting to consider $g(x)=f(x)$ in order to find a function $[0,1] to [0,1]$, so it doesn't seem to work.
â Seirios
Aug 12 '15 at 5:49
Yes, you are right. Define $g(x)=leftlvertdfracf(x)leftlceil max(leftlvert a rightrvert,leftlvert brightrvert)rightrceilrightrvert$. I think that it will work.
â user 170039
Aug 13 '15 at 13:48
I think so. But now, your solution does not seem to be really simpler than the original.
â Seirios
Aug 14 '15 at 6:46
add a comment |Â
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
Another simple proof:
Because $f$ is continuous and by connectedness, $f([0,1])=[a,b]$ for some $a<b$. Now define $$g : x mapsto frac1p left(f(x)-q right), textwhere p,q in mathbbQ.$$
In particular, $g(x)$ is rational iff $f(x)$ is rational, i.e. $g$ has the same property that $f$.
Notice that $g([0,1])= left[ fraca-qp, fracb-qp right]$. Therefore, if $b-1 leq q leq a$ and $p geq b-q$ then $g : [0,1] to [0,1]$ and classically $g$ has a fixed point $x_0 in [0,1]$.
Finally we deduce that $x_0 in mathbbQ$ iff $x_0 = g(x_0) notin mathbbQ$, a contradiction.
Another simple proof:
Because $f$ is continuous and by connectedness, $f([0,1])=[a,b]$ for some $a<b$. Now define $$g : x mapsto frac1p left(f(x)-q right), textwhere p,q in mathbbQ.$$
In particular, $g(x)$ is rational iff $f(x)$ is rational, i.e. $g$ has the same property that $f$.
Notice that $g([0,1])= left[ fraca-qp, fracb-qp right]$. Therefore, if $b-1 leq q leq a$ and $p geq b-q$ then $g : [0,1] to [0,1]$ and classically $g$ has a fixed point $x_0 in [0,1]$.
Finally we deduce that $x_0 in mathbbQ$ iff $x_0 = g(x_0) notin mathbbQ$, a contradiction.
edited Sep 22 '17 at 21:53
user228113
answered Jul 23 '13 at 13:20
Seirios
23.6k34497
23.6k34497
1
This uses compactness as well as connectedness of $[0,1]$ to conclude that $f([0,1])$ is a closed, bounded interval.
â Jonas Meyer
Jul 23 '13 at 15:10
Very nice proof.
â leo
Dec 30 '13 at 1:51
If $f([0,1])=[-1,1]$, then you are suggesting to consider $g(x)=f(x)$ in order to find a function $[0,1] to [0,1]$, so it doesn't seem to work.
â Seirios
Aug 12 '15 at 5:49
Yes, you are right. Define $g(x)=leftlvertdfracf(x)leftlceil max(leftlvert a rightrvert,leftlvert brightrvert)rightrceilrightrvert$. I think that it will work.
â user 170039
Aug 13 '15 at 13:48
I think so. But now, your solution does not seem to be really simpler than the original.
â Seirios
Aug 14 '15 at 6:46
add a comment |Â
1
This uses compactness as well as connectedness of $[0,1]$ to conclude that $f([0,1])$ is a closed, bounded interval.
â Jonas Meyer
Jul 23 '13 at 15:10
Very nice proof.
â leo
Dec 30 '13 at 1:51
If $f([0,1])=[-1,1]$, then you are suggesting to consider $g(x)=f(x)$ in order to find a function $[0,1] to [0,1]$, so it doesn't seem to work.
â Seirios
Aug 12 '15 at 5:49
Yes, you are right. Define $g(x)=leftlvertdfracf(x)leftlceil max(leftlvert a rightrvert,leftlvert brightrvert)rightrceilrightrvert$. I think that it will work.
â user 170039
Aug 13 '15 at 13:48
I think so. But now, your solution does not seem to be really simpler than the original.
â Seirios
Aug 14 '15 at 6:46
1
1
This uses compactness as well as connectedness of $[0,1]$ to conclude that $f([0,1])$ is a closed, bounded interval.
â Jonas Meyer
Jul 23 '13 at 15:10
This uses compactness as well as connectedness of $[0,1]$ to conclude that $f([0,1])$ is a closed, bounded interval.
â Jonas Meyer
Jul 23 '13 at 15:10
Very nice proof.
â leo
Dec 30 '13 at 1:51
Very nice proof.
â leo
Dec 30 '13 at 1:51
If $f([0,1])=[-1,1]$, then you are suggesting to consider $g(x)=f(x)$ in order to find a function $[0,1] to [0,1]$, so it doesn't seem to work.
â Seirios
Aug 12 '15 at 5:49
If $f([0,1])=[-1,1]$, then you are suggesting to consider $g(x)=f(x)$ in order to find a function $[0,1] to [0,1]$, so it doesn't seem to work.
â Seirios
Aug 12 '15 at 5:49
Yes, you are right. Define $g(x)=leftlvertdfracf(x)leftlceil max(leftlvert a rightrvert,leftlvert brightrvert)rightrceilrightrvert$. I think that it will work.
â user 170039
Aug 13 '15 at 13:48
Yes, you are right. Define $g(x)=leftlvertdfracf(x)leftlceil max(leftlvert a rightrvert,leftlvert brightrvert)rightrceilrightrvert$. I think that it will work.
â user 170039
Aug 13 '15 at 13:48
I think so. But now, your solution does not seem to be really simpler than the original.
â Seirios
Aug 14 '15 at 6:46
I think so. But now, your solution does not seem to be really simpler than the original.
â Seirios
Aug 14 '15 at 6:46
add a comment |Â
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1
Please make your post self-contained by incorporating the statement. It takes forever for planetmath to render for me. Maintaining the link is fine, so one can see how it is proved there.
â Ross Millikan
Aug 4 '11 at 18:18
@Ross Millikan: just edited it.
â user10
Aug 4 '11 at 18:22
1
@user10 actually the link is down.
â Gabriel Romon
Feb 21 '14 at 23:56
I searched planetmath to find the original linked argument; I think it is here and here If it moves again but stays on the site, a Google search such as
site:planetmath.org switch rational irrational baire
will find it.â Jonas Meyer
Jul 7 '16 at 14:42
Linked.
â Alex Ravsky
Sep 23 '17 at 1:05