Expressing interrelationships in first order logic

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I'm trying to figure out how to best formalize the following interrelationship in first order logic:




A material has (electric) resistance $r$ and conductance $g$, and the two are related as $r cdot g = 1$.




The idea is that, if I know either $r$ or $g$ for some material, I should be able to infer the other.



Let the relation $mathrmres(m,r)$ mean that material $m$ has resistance $r$, and similarly $mathrmcon(m,g)$ for conductance, and let $mathrmmul(x,y,z)$ denote the multiplication relation $x cdot y = z$. The following formulas express the semantics of resistance/conductance:



  1. $mathrmres(m,r) land mathrmcon(m,g) rightarrow mathrmmul(r,g,1)$

  2. $mathrmres(m,r) land mathrmmul(r,g,1) rightarrow mathrmcon(m,g)$

  3. $mathrmcon(m,g) land mathrmmul(r,g,1) rightarrow mathrmres(m,r)$

I think this works as expected: for example, if I know $mathrmres(X,10)$ for some specific material $X$ (a constant), then rule (2) together with the fact $mathrmmul(10,0.1,1)$ gives $mathrmcon(X,0.1)$. However, it feels like we should be able to express the relation between $r$ and $g$ more compactly$-$do we really need three formulas for this?



Intuitively, I thought there should be a single formula describing the relation, but I can't find one that works. Am I missing something, or is there something lurking here that's beyond the expressivity of first order logic?







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    I'm trying to figure out how to best formalize the following interrelationship in first order logic:




    A material has (electric) resistance $r$ and conductance $g$, and the two are related as $r cdot g = 1$.




    The idea is that, if I know either $r$ or $g$ for some material, I should be able to infer the other.



    Let the relation $mathrmres(m,r)$ mean that material $m$ has resistance $r$, and similarly $mathrmcon(m,g)$ for conductance, and let $mathrmmul(x,y,z)$ denote the multiplication relation $x cdot y = z$. The following formulas express the semantics of resistance/conductance:



    1. $mathrmres(m,r) land mathrmcon(m,g) rightarrow mathrmmul(r,g,1)$

    2. $mathrmres(m,r) land mathrmmul(r,g,1) rightarrow mathrmcon(m,g)$

    3. $mathrmcon(m,g) land mathrmmul(r,g,1) rightarrow mathrmres(m,r)$

    I think this works as expected: for example, if I know $mathrmres(X,10)$ for some specific material $X$ (a constant), then rule (2) together with the fact $mathrmmul(10,0.1,1)$ gives $mathrmcon(X,0.1)$. However, it feels like we should be able to express the relation between $r$ and $g$ more compactly$-$do we really need three formulas for this?



    Intuitively, I thought there should be a single formula describing the relation, but I can't find one that works. Am I missing something, or is there something lurking here that's beyond the expressivity of first order logic?







    share|cite|improve this question
























      up vote
      0
      down vote

      favorite









      up vote
      0
      down vote

      favorite











      I'm trying to figure out how to best formalize the following interrelationship in first order logic:




      A material has (electric) resistance $r$ and conductance $g$, and the two are related as $r cdot g = 1$.




      The idea is that, if I know either $r$ or $g$ for some material, I should be able to infer the other.



      Let the relation $mathrmres(m,r)$ mean that material $m$ has resistance $r$, and similarly $mathrmcon(m,g)$ for conductance, and let $mathrmmul(x,y,z)$ denote the multiplication relation $x cdot y = z$. The following formulas express the semantics of resistance/conductance:



      1. $mathrmres(m,r) land mathrmcon(m,g) rightarrow mathrmmul(r,g,1)$

      2. $mathrmres(m,r) land mathrmmul(r,g,1) rightarrow mathrmcon(m,g)$

      3. $mathrmcon(m,g) land mathrmmul(r,g,1) rightarrow mathrmres(m,r)$

      I think this works as expected: for example, if I know $mathrmres(X,10)$ for some specific material $X$ (a constant), then rule (2) together with the fact $mathrmmul(10,0.1,1)$ gives $mathrmcon(X,0.1)$. However, it feels like we should be able to express the relation between $r$ and $g$ more compactly$-$do we really need three formulas for this?



      Intuitively, I thought there should be a single formula describing the relation, but I can't find one that works. Am I missing something, or is there something lurking here that's beyond the expressivity of first order logic?







      share|cite|improve this question














      I'm trying to figure out how to best formalize the following interrelationship in first order logic:




      A material has (electric) resistance $r$ and conductance $g$, and the two are related as $r cdot g = 1$.




      The idea is that, if I know either $r$ or $g$ for some material, I should be able to infer the other.



      Let the relation $mathrmres(m,r)$ mean that material $m$ has resistance $r$, and similarly $mathrmcon(m,g)$ for conductance, and let $mathrmmul(x,y,z)$ denote the multiplication relation $x cdot y = z$. The following formulas express the semantics of resistance/conductance:



      1. $mathrmres(m,r) land mathrmcon(m,g) rightarrow mathrmmul(r,g,1)$

      2. $mathrmres(m,r) land mathrmmul(r,g,1) rightarrow mathrmcon(m,g)$

      3. $mathrmcon(m,g) land mathrmmul(r,g,1) rightarrow mathrmres(m,r)$

      I think this works as expected: for example, if I know $mathrmres(X,10)$ for some specific material $X$ (a constant), then rule (2) together with the fact $mathrmmul(10,0.1,1)$ gives $mathrmcon(X,0.1)$. However, it feels like we should be able to express the relation between $r$ and $g$ more compactly$-$do we really need three formulas for this?



      Intuitively, I thought there should be a single formula describing the relation, but I can't find one that works. Am I missing something, or is there something lurking here that's beyond the expressivity of first order logic?









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      edited Aug 21 at 5:24









      Taroccoesbrocco

      3,72451432




      3,72451432










      asked Aug 19 at 8:07









      Roland

      20219




      20219




















          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

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          up vote
          2
          down vote













          Are you somehow not allowing your logical language to contain function symbols?



          I would write
          $$ forall x(operatornamematerial(x) to operatornameres(x)cdotoperatornamecon(x) = 1)$$
          and be done with it.



          (Even though first-order logic can be formulated with no function symbols without losing expressivity, the standard presentations allow any combination of predicate symbols, function symbols and constant symbols).






          share|cite|improve this answer



























            up vote
            0
            down vote













            If I understood you correctly, this relationship could be written just as
            beginequation
            res(m,r) leftrightarrow con(m,frac1r)
            endequation



            EDIT (after discussion in the comments):
            beginequation
            (res(m,r) land con(m,g)) leftrightarrow mul(r,g,1)
            endequation
            For a specific material (say $m=X$), we have the following;



            • If $res(X,r)$ holds, $con(X,g)$ must hold for $g$ such that $mul(r,g,1)$ holds.

            • If $con(X,g)$ holds, $res(X,r)$ must hold for $r$ such that $mul(r,g,1)$ holds.

            I am aware that this lacks the restriction on $m$, but I figured that this formula is not to be used without knowing either $r$ or $g$ of a specific material $m$.






            share|cite|improve this answer






















            • Can you give some explanation?
              – user144410
              Aug 19 at 10:16










            • Following what @Roland said: "..., if I know either r or g for some material, I should be able to infer the other". So, if we know the resistance of $m$ is $r$, than conductance of $m$ must be $1/r$ and vice-versa. Therefore I put logical equivalence, that covers both ways of implication.
              – Sandro Lovnički
              Aug 19 at 10:20











            • Well, that seems simple, but it doesn't look like first order logic. What exactly is the $1/r$ construct? If it's a function (taking terms to terms) then you cannot prove $res(X, 10)$ from $con(X, 0.1)$, because there's no way to unify $0.1$ with the function to get to the value of $r$. I'm pretty sure the inverse must be handled implicitly via a relation.
              – Roland
              Aug 19 at 10:37










            • You are right @Roland, it cannot be done with less than 3 relations. Can it be done if we add your $mul$ relation to above biconditional formula? What are the problems then?
              – Sandro Lovnički
              Aug 19 at 11:01






            • 2




              @SandroLovnički: Your proposal would seem to say that whenever we can find an $r$ and $g$ that multiply to $1$, those particular $r$ and $g$ will magically be parameters of every $m$ in the universe ...
              – Henning Makholm
              Aug 19 at 13:19










            Your Answer




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            2 Answers
            2






            active

            oldest

            votes








            2 Answers
            2






            active

            oldest

            votes









            active

            oldest

            votes






            active

            oldest

            votes








            up vote
            2
            down vote













            Are you somehow not allowing your logical language to contain function symbols?



            I would write
            $$ forall x(operatornamematerial(x) to operatornameres(x)cdotoperatornamecon(x) = 1)$$
            and be done with it.



            (Even though first-order logic can be formulated with no function symbols without losing expressivity, the standard presentations allow any combination of predicate symbols, function symbols and constant symbols).






            share|cite|improve this answer
























              up vote
              2
              down vote













              Are you somehow not allowing your logical language to contain function symbols?



              I would write
              $$ forall x(operatornamematerial(x) to operatornameres(x)cdotoperatornamecon(x) = 1)$$
              and be done with it.



              (Even though first-order logic can be formulated with no function symbols without losing expressivity, the standard presentations allow any combination of predicate symbols, function symbols and constant symbols).






              share|cite|improve this answer






















                up vote
                2
                down vote










                up vote
                2
                down vote









                Are you somehow not allowing your logical language to contain function symbols?



                I would write
                $$ forall x(operatornamematerial(x) to operatornameres(x)cdotoperatornamecon(x) = 1)$$
                and be done with it.



                (Even though first-order logic can be formulated with no function symbols without losing expressivity, the standard presentations allow any combination of predicate symbols, function symbols and constant symbols).






                share|cite|improve this answer












                Are you somehow not allowing your logical language to contain function symbols?



                I would write
                $$ forall x(operatornamematerial(x) to operatornameres(x)cdotoperatornamecon(x) = 1)$$
                and be done with it.



                (Even though first-order logic can be formulated with no function symbols without losing expressivity, the standard presentations allow any combination of predicate symbols, function symbols and constant symbols).







                share|cite|improve this answer












                share|cite|improve this answer



                share|cite|improve this answer










                answered Aug 19 at 13:17









                Henning Makholm

                229k16294525




                229k16294525




















                    up vote
                    0
                    down vote













                    If I understood you correctly, this relationship could be written just as
                    beginequation
                    res(m,r) leftrightarrow con(m,frac1r)
                    endequation



                    EDIT (after discussion in the comments):
                    beginequation
                    (res(m,r) land con(m,g)) leftrightarrow mul(r,g,1)
                    endequation
                    For a specific material (say $m=X$), we have the following;



                    • If $res(X,r)$ holds, $con(X,g)$ must hold for $g$ such that $mul(r,g,1)$ holds.

                    • If $con(X,g)$ holds, $res(X,r)$ must hold for $r$ such that $mul(r,g,1)$ holds.

                    I am aware that this lacks the restriction on $m$, but I figured that this formula is not to be used without knowing either $r$ or $g$ of a specific material $m$.






                    share|cite|improve this answer






















                    • Can you give some explanation?
                      – user144410
                      Aug 19 at 10:16










                    • Following what @Roland said: "..., if I know either r or g for some material, I should be able to infer the other". So, if we know the resistance of $m$ is $r$, than conductance of $m$ must be $1/r$ and vice-versa. Therefore I put logical equivalence, that covers both ways of implication.
                      – Sandro Lovnički
                      Aug 19 at 10:20











                    • Well, that seems simple, but it doesn't look like first order logic. What exactly is the $1/r$ construct? If it's a function (taking terms to terms) then you cannot prove $res(X, 10)$ from $con(X, 0.1)$, because there's no way to unify $0.1$ with the function to get to the value of $r$. I'm pretty sure the inverse must be handled implicitly via a relation.
                      – Roland
                      Aug 19 at 10:37










                    • You are right @Roland, it cannot be done with less than 3 relations. Can it be done if we add your $mul$ relation to above biconditional formula? What are the problems then?
                      – Sandro Lovnički
                      Aug 19 at 11:01






                    • 2




                      @SandroLovnički: Your proposal would seem to say that whenever we can find an $r$ and $g$ that multiply to $1$, those particular $r$ and $g$ will magically be parameters of every $m$ in the universe ...
                      – Henning Makholm
                      Aug 19 at 13:19














                    up vote
                    0
                    down vote













                    If I understood you correctly, this relationship could be written just as
                    beginequation
                    res(m,r) leftrightarrow con(m,frac1r)
                    endequation



                    EDIT (after discussion in the comments):
                    beginequation
                    (res(m,r) land con(m,g)) leftrightarrow mul(r,g,1)
                    endequation
                    For a specific material (say $m=X$), we have the following;



                    • If $res(X,r)$ holds, $con(X,g)$ must hold for $g$ such that $mul(r,g,1)$ holds.

                    • If $con(X,g)$ holds, $res(X,r)$ must hold for $r$ such that $mul(r,g,1)$ holds.

                    I am aware that this lacks the restriction on $m$, but I figured that this formula is not to be used without knowing either $r$ or $g$ of a specific material $m$.






                    share|cite|improve this answer






















                    • Can you give some explanation?
                      – user144410
                      Aug 19 at 10:16










                    • Following what @Roland said: "..., if I know either r or g for some material, I should be able to infer the other". So, if we know the resistance of $m$ is $r$, than conductance of $m$ must be $1/r$ and vice-versa. Therefore I put logical equivalence, that covers both ways of implication.
                      – Sandro Lovnički
                      Aug 19 at 10:20











                    • Well, that seems simple, but it doesn't look like first order logic. What exactly is the $1/r$ construct? If it's a function (taking terms to terms) then you cannot prove $res(X, 10)$ from $con(X, 0.1)$, because there's no way to unify $0.1$ with the function to get to the value of $r$. I'm pretty sure the inverse must be handled implicitly via a relation.
                      – Roland
                      Aug 19 at 10:37










                    • You are right @Roland, it cannot be done with less than 3 relations. Can it be done if we add your $mul$ relation to above biconditional formula? What are the problems then?
                      – Sandro Lovnički
                      Aug 19 at 11:01






                    • 2




                      @SandroLovnički: Your proposal would seem to say that whenever we can find an $r$ and $g$ that multiply to $1$, those particular $r$ and $g$ will magically be parameters of every $m$ in the universe ...
                      – Henning Makholm
                      Aug 19 at 13:19












                    up vote
                    0
                    down vote










                    up vote
                    0
                    down vote









                    If I understood you correctly, this relationship could be written just as
                    beginequation
                    res(m,r) leftrightarrow con(m,frac1r)
                    endequation



                    EDIT (after discussion in the comments):
                    beginequation
                    (res(m,r) land con(m,g)) leftrightarrow mul(r,g,1)
                    endequation
                    For a specific material (say $m=X$), we have the following;



                    • If $res(X,r)$ holds, $con(X,g)$ must hold for $g$ such that $mul(r,g,1)$ holds.

                    • If $con(X,g)$ holds, $res(X,r)$ must hold for $r$ such that $mul(r,g,1)$ holds.

                    I am aware that this lacks the restriction on $m$, but I figured that this formula is not to be used without knowing either $r$ or $g$ of a specific material $m$.






                    share|cite|improve this answer














                    If I understood you correctly, this relationship could be written just as
                    beginequation
                    res(m,r) leftrightarrow con(m,frac1r)
                    endequation



                    EDIT (after discussion in the comments):
                    beginequation
                    (res(m,r) land con(m,g)) leftrightarrow mul(r,g,1)
                    endequation
                    For a specific material (say $m=X$), we have the following;



                    • If $res(X,r)$ holds, $con(X,g)$ must hold for $g$ such that $mul(r,g,1)$ holds.

                    • If $con(X,g)$ holds, $res(X,r)$ must hold for $r$ such that $mul(r,g,1)$ holds.

                    I am aware that this lacks the restriction on $m$, but I figured that this formula is not to be used without knowing either $r$ or $g$ of a specific material $m$.







                    share|cite|improve this answer














                    share|cite|improve this answer



                    share|cite|improve this answer








                    edited Aug 19 at 13:39

























                    answered Aug 19 at 10:05









                    Sandro Lovnički

                    1414




                    1414











                    • Can you give some explanation?
                      – user144410
                      Aug 19 at 10:16










                    • Following what @Roland said: "..., if I know either r or g for some material, I should be able to infer the other". So, if we know the resistance of $m$ is $r$, than conductance of $m$ must be $1/r$ and vice-versa. Therefore I put logical equivalence, that covers both ways of implication.
                      – Sandro Lovnički
                      Aug 19 at 10:20











                    • Well, that seems simple, but it doesn't look like first order logic. What exactly is the $1/r$ construct? If it's a function (taking terms to terms) then you cannot prove $res(X, 10)$ from $con(X, 0.1)$, because there's no way to unify $0.1$ with the function to get to the value of $r$. I'm pretty sure the inverse must be handled implicitly via a relation.
                      – Roland
                      Aug 19 at 10:37










                    • You are right @Roland, it cannot be done with less than 3 relations. Can it be done if we add your $mul$ relation to above biconditional formula? What are the problems then?
                      – Sandro Lovnički
                      Aug 19 at 11:01






                    • 2




                      @SandroLovnički: Your proposal would seem to say that whenever we can find an $r$ and $g$ that multiply to $1$, those particular $r$ and $g$ will magically be parameters of every $m$ in the universe ...
                      – Henning Makholm
                      Aug 19 at 13:19
















                    • Can you give some explanation?
                      – user144410
                      Aug 19 at 10:16










                    • Following what @Roland said: "..., if I know either r or g for some material, I should be able to infer the other". So, if we know the resistance of $m$ is $r$, than conductance of $m$ must be $1/r$ and vice-versa. Therefore I put logical equivalence, that covers both ways of implication.
                      – Sandro Lovnički
                      Aug 19 at 10:20











                    • Well, that seems simple, but it doesn't look like first order logic. What exactly is the $1/r$ construct? If it's a function (taking terms to terms) then you cannot prove $res(X, 10)$ from $con(X, 0.1)$, because there's no way to unify $0.1$ with the function to get to the value of $r$. I'm pretty sure the inverse must be handled implicitly via a relation.
                      – Roland
                      Aug 19 at 10:37










                    • You are right @Roland, it cannot be done with less than 3 relations. Can it be done if we add your $mul$ relation to above biconditional formula? What are the problems then?
                      – Sandro Lovnički
                      Aug 19 at 11:01






                    • 2




                      @SandroLovnički: Your proposal would seem to say that whenever we can find an $r$ and $g$ that multiply to $1$, those particular $r$ and $g$ will magically be parameters of every $m$ in the universe ...
                      – Henning Makholm
                      Aug 19 at 13:19















                    Can you give some explanation?
                    – user144410
                    Aug 19 at 10:16




                    Can you give some explanation?
                    – user144410
                    Aug 19 at 10:16












                    Following what @Roland said: "..., if I know either r or g for some material, I should be able to infer the other". So, if we know the resistance of $m$ is $r$, than conductance of $m$ must be $1/r$ and vice-versa. Therefore I put logical equivalence, that covers both ways of implication.
                    – Sandro Lovnički
                    Aug 19 at 10:20





                    Following what @Roland said: "..., if I know either r or g for some material, I should be able to infer the other". So, if we know the resistance of $m$ is $r$, than conductance of $m$ must be $1/r$ and vice-versa. Therefore I put logical equivalence, that covers both ways of implication.
                    – Sandro Lovnički
                    Aug 19 at 10:20













                    Well, that seems simple, but it doesn't look like first order logic. What exactly is the $1/r$ construct? If it's a function (taking terms to terms) then you cannot prove $res(X, 10)$ from $con(X, 0.1)$, because there's no way to unify $0.1$ with the function to get to the value of $r$. I'm pretty sure the inverse must be handled implicitly via a relation.
                    – Roland
                    Aug 19 at 10:37




                    Well, that seems simple, but it doesn't look like first order logic. What exactly is the $1/r$ construct? If it's a function (taking terms to terms) then you cannot prove $res(X, 10)$ from $con(X, 0.1)$, because there's no way to unify $0.1$ with the function to get to the value of $r$. I'm pretty sure the inverse must be handled implicitly via a relation.
                    – Roland
                    Aug 19 at 10:37












                    You are right @Roland, it cannot be done with less than 3 relations. Can it be done if we add your $mul$ relation to above biconditional formula? What are the problems then?
                    – Sandro Lovnički
                    Aug 19 at 11:01




                    You are right @Roland, it cannot be done with less than 3 relations. Can it be done if we add your $mul$ relation to above biconditional formula? What are the problems then?
                    – Sandro Lovnički
                    Aug 19 at 11:01




                    2




                    2




                    @SandroLovnički: Your proposal would seem to say that whenever we can find an $r$ and $g$ that multiply to $1$, those particular $r$ and $g$ will magically be parameters of every $m$ in the universe ...
                    – Henning Makholm
                    Aug 19 at 13:19




                    @SandroLovnički: Your proposal would seem to say that whenever we can find an $r$ and $g$ that multiply to $1$, those particular $r$ and $g$ will magically be parameters of every $m$ in the universe ...
                    – Henning Makholm
                    Aug 19 at 13:19












                     

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