Expressing interrelationships in first order logic
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I'm trying to figure out how to best formalize the following interrelationship in first order logic:
A material has (electric) resistance $r$ and conductance $g$, and the two are related as $r cdot g = 1$.
The idea is that, if I know either $r$ or $g$ for some material, I should be able to infer the other.
Let the relation $mathrmres(m,r)$ mean that material $m$ has resistance $r$, and similarly $mathrmcon(m,g)$ for conductance, and let $mathrmmul(x,y,z)$ denote the multiplication relation $x cdot y = z$. The following formulas express the semantics of resistance/conductance:
- $mathrmres(m,r) land mathrmcon(m,g) rightarrow mathrmmul(r,g,1)$
- $mathrmres(m,r) land mathrmmul(r,g,1) rightarrow mathrmcon(m,g)$
- $mathrmcon(m,g) land mathrmmul(r,g,1) rightarrow mathrmres(m,r)$
I think this works as expected: for example, if I know $mathrmres(X,10)$ for some specific material $X$ (a constant), then rule (2) together with the fact $mathrmmul(10,0.1,1)$ gives $mathrmcon(X,0.1)$. However, it feels like we should be able to express the relation between $r$ and $g$ more compactly$-$do we really need three formulas for this?
Intuitively, I thought there should be a single formula describing the relation, but I can't find one that works. Am I missing something, or is there something lurking here that's beyond the expressivity of first order logic?
logic first-order-logic logic-translation
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I'm trying to figure out how to best formalize the following interrelationship in first order logic:
A material has (electric) resistance $r$ and conductance $g$, and the two are related as $r cdot g = 1$.
The idea is that, if I know either $r$ or $g$ for some material, I should be able to infer the other.
Let the relation $mathrmres(m,r)$ mean that material $m$ has resistance $r$, and similarly $mathrmcon(m,g)$ for conductance, and let $mathrmmul(x,y,z)$ denote the multiplication relation $x cdot y = z$. The following formulas express the semantics of resistance/conductance:
- $mathrmres(m,r) land mathrmcon(m,g) rightarrow mathrmmul(r,g,1)$
- $mathrmres(m,r) land mathrmmul(r,g,1) rightarrow mathrmcon(m,g)$
- $mathrmcon(m,g) land mathrmmul(r,g,1) rightarrow mathrmres(m,r)$
I think this works as expected: for example, if I know $mathrmres(X,10)$ for some specific material $X$ (a constant), then rule (2) together with the fact $mathrmmul(10,0.1,1)$ gives $mathrmcon(X,0.1)$. However, it feels like we should be able to express the relation between $r$ and $g$ more compactly$-$do we really need three formulas for this?
Intuitively, I thought there should be a single formula describing the relation, but I can't find one that works. Am I missing something, or is there something lurking here that's beyond the expressivity of first order logic?
logic first-order-logic logic-translation
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
favorite
up vote
0
down vote
favorite
I'm trying to figure out how to best formalize the following interrelationship in first order logic:
A material has (electric) resistance $r$ and conductance $g$, and the two are related as $r cdot g = 1$.
The idea is that, if I know either $r$ or $g$ for some material, I should be able to infer the other.
Let the relation $mathrmres(m,r)$ mean that material $m$ has resistance $r$, and similarly $mathrmcon(m,g)$ for conductance, and let $mathrmmul(x,y,z)$ denote the multiplication relation $x cdot y = z$. The following formulas express the semantics of resistance/conductance:
- $mathrmres(m,r) land mathrmcon(m,g) rightarrow mathrmmul(r,g,1)$
- $mathrmres(m,r) land mathrmmul(r,g,1) rightarrow mathrmcon(m,g)$
- $mathrmcon(m,g) land mathrmmul(r,g,1) rightarrow mathrmres(m,r)$
I think this works as expected: for example, if I know $mathrmres(X,10)$ for some specific material $X$ (a constant), then rule (2) together with the fact $mathrmmul(10,0.1,1)$ gives $mathrmcon(X,0.1)$. However, it feels like we should be able to express the relation between $r$ and $g$ more compactly$-$do we really need three formulas for this?
Intuitively, I thought there should be a single formula describing the relation, but I can't find one that works. Am I missing something, or is there something lurking here that's beyond the expressivity of first order logic?
logic first-order-logic logic-translation
I'm trying to figure out how to best formalize the following interrelationship in first order logic:
A material has (electric) resistance $r$ and conductance $g$, and the two are related as $r cdot g = 1$.
The idea is that, if I know either $r$ or $g$ for some material, I should be able to infer the other.
Let the relation $mathrmres(m,r)$ mean that material $m$ has resistance $r$, and similarly $mathrmcon(m,g)$ for conductance, and let $mathrmmul(x,y,z)$ denote the multiplication relation $x cdot y = z$. The following formulas express the semantics of resistance/conductance:
- $mathrmres(m,r) land mathrmcon(m,g) rightarrow mathrmmul(r,g,1)$
- $mathrmres(m,r) land mathrmmul(r,g,1) rightarrow mathrmcon(m,g)$
- $mathrmcon(m,g) land mathrmmul(r,g,1) rightarrow mathrmres(m,r)$
I think this works as expected: for example, if I know $mathrmres(X,10)$ for some specific material $X$ (a constant), then rule (2) together with the fact $mathrmmul(10,0.1,1)$ gives $mathrmcon(X,0.1)$. However, it feels like we should be able to express the relation between $r$ and $g$ more compactly$-$do we really need three formulas for this?
Intuitively, I thought there should be a single formula describing the relation, but I can't find one that works. Am I missing something, or is there something lurking here that's beyond the expressivity of first order logic?
logic first-order-logic logic-translation
edited Aug 21 at 5:24
Taroccoesbrocco
3,72451432
3,72451432
asked Aug 19 at 8:07
Roland
20219
20219
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2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
up vote
2
down vote
Are you somehow not allowing your logical language to contain function symbols?
I would write
$$ forall x(operatornamematerial(x) to operatornameres(x)cdotoperatornamecon(x) = 1)$$
and be done with it.
(Even though first-order logic can be formulated with no function symbols without losing expressivity, the standard presentations allow any combination of predicate symbols, function symbols and constant symbols).
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
If I understood you correctly, this relationship could be written just as
beginequation
res(m,r) leftrightarrow con(m,frac1r)
endequation
EDIT (after discussion in the comments):
beginequation
(res(m,r) land con(m,g)) leftrightarrow mul(r,g,1)
endequation
For a specific material (say $m=X$), we have the following;
- If $res(X,r)$ holds, $con(X,g)$ must hold for $g$ such that $mul(r,g,1)$ holds.
- If $con(X,g)$ holds, $res(X,r)$ must hold for $r$ such that $mul(r,g,1)$ holds.
I am aware that this lacks the restriction on $m$, but I figured that this formula is not to be used without knowing either $r$ or $g$ of a specific material $m$.
Can you give some explanation?
â user144410
Aug 19 at 10:16
Following what @Roland said: "..., if I know either r or g for some material, I should be able to infer the other". So, if we know the resistance of $m$ is $r$, than conductance of $m$ must be $1/r$ and vice-versa. Therefore I put logical equivalence, that covers both ways of implication.
â Sandro LovniÃÂki
Aug 19 at 10:20
Well, that seems simple, but it doesn't look like first order logic. What exactly is the $1/r$ construct? If it's a function (taking terms to terms) then you cannot prove $res(X, 10)$ from $con(X, 0.1)$, because there's no way to unify $0.1$ with the function to get to the value of $r$. I'm pretty sure the inverse must be handled implicitly via a relation.
â Roland
Aug 19 at 10:37
You are right @Roland, it cannot be done with less than 3 relations. Can it be done if we add your $mul$ relation to above biconditional formula? What are the problems then?
â Sandro LovniÃÂki
Aug 19 at 11:01
2
@SandroLovniÃÂki: Your proposal would seem to say that whenever we can find an $r$ and $g$ that multiply to $1$, those particular $r$ and $g$ will magically be parameters of every $m$ in the universe ...
â Henning Makholm
Aug 19 at 13:19
 |Â
show 3 more comments
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
2
down vote
Are you somehow not allowing your logical language to contain function symbols?
I would write
$$ forall x(operatornamematerial(x) to operatornameres(x)cdotoperatornamecon(x) = 1)$$
and be done with it.
(Even though first-order logic can be formulated with no function symbols without losing expressivity, the standard presentations allow any combination of predicate symbols, function symbols and constant symbols).
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
Are you somehow not allowing your logical language to contain function symbols?
I would write
$$ forall x(operatornamematerial(x) to operatornameres(x)cdotoperatornamecon(x) = 1)$$
and be done with it.
(Even though first-order logic can be formulated with no function symbols without losing expressivity, the standard presentations allow any combination of predicate symbols, function symbols and constant symbols).
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
Are you somehow not allowing your logical language to contain function symbols?
I would write
$$ forall x(operatornamematerial(x) to operatornameres(x)cdotoperatornamecon(x) = 1)$$
and be done with it.
(Even though first-order logic can be formulated with no function symbols without losing expressivity, the standard presentations allow any combination of predicate symbols, function symbols and constant symbols).
Are you somehow not allowing your logical language to contain function symbols?
I would write
$$ forall x(operatornamematerial(x) to operatornameres(x)cdotoperatornamecon(x) = 1)$$
and be done with it.
(Even though first-order logic can be formulated with no function symbols without losing expressivity, the standard presentations allow any combination of predicate symbols, function symbols and constant symbols).
answered Aug 19 at 13:17
Henning Makholm
229k16294525
229k16294525
add a comment |Â
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
If I understood you correctly, this relationship could be written just as
beginequation
res(m,r) leftrightarrow con(m,frac1r)
endequation
EDIT (after discussion in the comments):
beginequation
(res(m,r) land con(m,g)) leftrightarrow mul(r,g,1)
endequation
For a specific material (say $m=X$), we have the following;
- If $res(X,r)$ holds, $con(X,g)$ must hold for $g$ such that $mul(r,g,1)$ holds.
- If $con(X,g)$ holds, $res(X,r)$ must hold for $r$ such that $mul(r,g,1)$ holds.
I am aware that this lacks the restriction on $m$, but I figured that this formula is not to be used without knowing either $r$ or $g$ of a specific material $m$.
Can you give some explanation?
â user144410
Aug 19 at 10:16
Following what @Roland said: "..., if I know either r or g for some material, I should be able to infer the other". So, if we know the resistance of $m$ is $r$, than conductance of $m$ must be $1/r$ and vice-versa. Therefore I put logical equivalence, that covers both ways of implication.
â Sandro LovniÃÂki
Aug 19 at 10:20
Well, that seems simple, but it doesn't look like first order logic. What exactly is the $1/r$ construct? If it's a function (taking terms to terms) then you cannot prove $res(X, 10)$ from $con(X, 0.1)$, because there's no way to unify $0.1$ with the function to get to the value of $r$. I'm pretty sure the inverse must be handled implicitly via a relation.
â Roland
Aug 19 at 10:37
You are right @Roland, it cannot be done with less than 3 relations. Can it be done if we add your $mul$ relation to above biconditional formula? What are the problems then?
â Sandro LovniÃÂki
Aug 19 at 11:01
2
@SandroLovniÃÂki: Your proposal would seem to say that whenever we can find an $r$ and $g$ that multiply to $1$, those particular $r$ and $g$ will magically be parameters of every $m$ in the universe ...
â Henning Makholm
Aug 19 at 13:19
 |Â
show 3 more comments
up vote
0
down vote
If I understood you correctly, this relationship could be written just as
beginequation
res(m,r) leftrightarrow con(m,frac1r)
endequation
EDIT (after discussion in the comments):
beginequation
(res(m,r) land con(m,g)) leftrightarrow mul(r,g,1)
endequation
For a specific material (say $m=X$), we have the following;
- If $res(X,r)$ holds, $con(X,g)$ must hold for $g$ such that $mul(r,g,1)$ holds.
- If $con(X,g)$ holds, $res(X,r)$ must hold for $r$ such that $mul(r,g,1)$ holds.
I am aware that this lacks the restriction on $m$, but I figured that this formula is not to be used without knowing either $r$ or $g$ of a specific material $m$.
Can you give some explanation?
â user144410
Aug 19 at 10:16
Following what @Roland said: "..., if I know either r or g for some material, I should be able to infer the other". So, if we know the resistance of $m$ is $r$, than conductance of $m$ must be $1/r$ and vice-versa. Therefore I put logical equivalence, that covers both ways of implication.
â Sandro LovniÃÂki
Aug 19 at 10:20
Well, that seems simple, but it doesn't look like first order logic. What exactly is the $1/r$ construct? If it's a function (taking terms to terms) then you cannot prove $res(X, 10)$ from $con(X, 0.1)$, because there's no way to unify $0.1$ with the function to get to the value of $r$. I'm pretty sure the inverse must be handled implicitly via a relation.
â Roland
Aug 19 at 10:37
You are right @Roland, it cannot be done with less than 3 relations. Can it be done if we add your $mul$ relation to above biconditional formula? What are the problems then?
â Sandro LovniÃÂki
Aug 19 at 11:01
2
@SandroLovniÃÂki: Your proposal would seem to say that whenever we can find an $r$ and $g$ that multiply to $1$, those particular $r$ and $g$ will magically be parameters of every $m$ in the universe ...
â Henning Makholm
Aug 19 at 13:19
 |Â
show 3 more comments
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
If I understood you correctly, this relationship could be written just as
beginequation
res(m,r) leftrightarrow con(m,frac1r)
endequation
EDIT (after discussion in the comments):
beginequation
(res(m,r) land con(m,g)) leftrightarrow mul(r,g,1)
endequation
For a specific material (say $m=X$), we have the following;
- If $res(X,r)$ holds, $con(X,g)$ must hold for $g$ such that $mul(r,g,1)$ holds.
- If $con(X,g)$ holds, $res(X,r)$ must hold for $r$ such that $mul(r,g,1)$ holds.
I am aware that this lacks the restriction on $m$, but I figured that this formula is not to be used without knowing either $r$ or $g$ of a specific material $m$.
If I understood you correctly, this relationship could be written just as
beginequation
res(m,r) leftrightarrow con(m,frac1r)
endequation
EDIT (after discussion in the comments):
beginequation
(res(m,r) land con(m,g)) leftrightarrow mul(r,g,1)
endequation
For a specific material (say $m=X$), we have the following;
- If $res(X,r)$ holds, $con(X,g)$ must hold for $g$ such that $mul(r,g,1)$ holds.
- If $con(X,g)$ holds, $res(X,r)$ must hold for $r$ such that $mul(r,g,1)$ holds.
I am aware that this lacks the restriction on $m$, but I figured that this formula is not to be used without knowing either $r$ or $g$ of a specific material $m$.
edited Aug 19 at 13:39
answered Aug 19 at 10:05
Sandro LovniÃÂki
1414
1414
Can you give some explanation?
â user144410
Aug 19 at 10:16
Following what @Roland said: "..., if I know either r or g for some material, I should be able to infer the other". So, if we know the resistance of $m$ is $r$, than conductance of $m$ must be $1/r$ and vice-versa. Therefore I put logical equivalence, that covers both ways of implication.
â Sandro LovniÃÂki
Aug 19 at 10:20
Well, that seems simple, but it doesn't look like first order logic. What exactly is the $1/r$ construct? If it's a function (taking terms to terms) then you cannot prove $res(X, 10)$ from $con(X, 0.1)$, because there's no way to unify $0.1$ with the function to get to the value of $r$. I'm pretty sure the inverse must be handled implicitly via a relation.
â Roland
Aug 19 at 10:37
You are right @Roland, it cannot be done with less than 3 relations. Can it be done if we add your $mul$ relation to above biconditional formula? What are the problems then?
â Sandro LovniÃÂki
Aug 19 at 11:01
2
@SandroLovniÃÂki: Your proposal would seem to say that whenever we can find an $r$ and $g$ that multiply to $1$, those particular $r$ and $g$ will magically be parameters of every $m$ in the universe ...
â Henning Makholm
Aug 19 at 13:19
 |Â
show 3 more comments
Can you give some explanation?
â user144410
Aug 19 at 10:16
Following what @Roland said: "..., if I know either r or g for some material, I should be able to infer the other". So, if we know the resistance of $m$ is $r$, than conductance of $m$ must be $1/r$ and vice-versa. Therefore I put logical equivalence, that covers both ways of implication.
â Sandro LovniÃÂki
Aug 19 at 10:20
Well, that seems simple, but it doesn't look like first order logic. What exactly is the $1/r$ construct? If it's a function (taking terms to terms) then you cannot prove $res(X, 10)$ from $con(X, 0.1)$, because there's no way to unify $0.1$ with the function to get to the value of $r$. I'm pretty sure the inverse must be handled implicitly via a relation.
â Roland
Aug 19 at 10:37
You are right @Roland, it cannot be done with less than 3 relations. Can it be done if we add your $mul$ relation to above biconditional formula? What are the problems then?
â Sandro LovniÃÂki
Aug 19 at 11:01
2
@SandroLovniÃÂki: Your proposal would seem to say that whenever we can find an $r$ and $g$ that multiply to $1$, those particular $r$ and $g$ will magically be parameters of every $m$ in the universe ...
â Henning Makholm
Aug 19 at 13:19
Can you give some explanation?
â user144410
Aug 19 at 10:16
Can you give some explanation?
â user144410
Aug 19 at 10:16
Following what @Roland said: "..., if I know either r or g for some material, I should be able to infer the other". So, if we know the resistance of $m$ is $r$, than conductance of $m$ must be $1/r$ and vice-versa. Therefore I put logical equivalence, that covers both ways of implication.
â Sandro LovniÃÂki
Aug 19 at 10:20
Following what @Roland said: "..., if I know either r or g for some material, I should be able to infer the other". So, if we know the resistance of $m$ is $r$, than conductance of $m$ must be $1/r$ and vice-versa. Therefore I put logical equivalence, that covers both ways of implication.
â Sandro LovniÃÂki
Aug 19 at 10:20
Well, that seems simple, but it doesn't look like first order logic. What exactly is the $1/r$ construct? If it's a function (taking terms to terms) then you cannot prove $res(X, 10)$ from $con(X, 0.1)$, because there's no way to unify $0.1$ with the function to get to the value of $r$. I'm pretty sure the inverse must be handled implicitly via a relation.
â Roland
Aug 19 at 10:37
Well, that seems simple, but it doesn't look like first order logic. What exactly is the $1/r$ construct? If it's a function (taking terms to terms) then you cannot prove $res(X, 10)$ from $con(X, 0.1)$, because there's no way to unify $0.1$ with the function to get to the value of $r$. I'm pretty sure the inverse must be handled implicitly via a relation.
â Roland
Aug 19 at 10:37
You are right @Roland, it cannot be done with less than 3 relations. Can it be done if we add your $mul$ relation to above biconditional formula? What are the problems then?
â Sandro LovniÃÂki
Aug 19 at 11:01
You are right @Roland, it cannot be done with less than 3 relations. Can it be done if we add your $mul$ relation to above biconditional formula? What are the problems then?
â Sandro LovniÃÂki
Aug 19 at 11:01
2
2
@SandroLovniÃÂki: Your proposal would seem to say that whenever we can find an $r$ and $g$ that multiply to $1$, those particular $r$ and $g$ will magically be parameters of every $m$ in the universe ...
â Henning Makholm
Aug 19 at 13:19
@SandroLovniÃÂki: Your proposal would seem to say that whenever we can find an $r$ and $g$ that multiply to $1$, those particular $r$ and $g$ will magically be parameters of every $m$ in the universe ...
â Henning Makholm
Aug 19 at 13:19
 |Â
show 3 more comments
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