The minimal uncountable well-ordered set has no largest element

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Theorem. There exists a well ordered set $A$ having a largest element $Omega$ such that the section $S_Omega$ of $A$ by $Omega$ is uncountable but every other section of $A$ is countable.



Proof. Consider an uncountable well ordered set $B$, consider $C=1,2times B$ with the lexicographic order and let $Omega $ be the smallest element of $C$ for which $S_Omega=xin C$ is uncountable. Let $A=S_OmegacupOmega$
.




I'm trying to show that $S_Omega$ has no largest element.



Assume the converse: there is $Gammain S_Omega$ such that $xle Gamma$ for all $xin S_Omega$. I need to use that $Gamma $ is a largest element. It's essential to consider $S_Gamma$ ($Gammain C$, and $S_Gamma$ is the section of $C$ by $Gamma$). Then $S_Gamma$ is countable. At the same time $S_Omega$ is not. But I don't see any contradiction here... I guess I need to invoke $Omega$ and prove something like $S_OmegacupOmega=S_Gamma$. But I don't see why this holds. $$S_Gamma=xin C: xle Gamma
\ S_OmegacupOmega=xin C: xle Omega$$
Do I need to use $xle Gamma$ for all $xin S_Omega$ somehow to prove the equality? I don't see how.







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  • 1




    Well, for infinite sets $X$ with an element $xin X$, the complement of $x$, i.e. $Xsetminusx$, is equipotent to $X$. Is that what you want?
    – Lubin
    Aug 27 at 0:20







  • 1




    It may help to realize that every infinite ordinal looks like a limit ordinal (no largest element) followed by a finite number (possibly zero) additional elements at the end. Removing the finite number of additional elements will make the ordinal smaller and will not change the cardinality of the ordinal.
    – Carl Mummert
    Aug 27 at 0:23










  • Certainly $S_OmegacupOmeganeq S_Gamma$, since $Omeganotin S_Omega$ and $S_Gamma$ is a subset of $S_Omega$. I would suggest you think about how $S_Gamma$ and $S_Omega$ are related. If it's not obvious, draw a picture of where all the relevant elements are in your well-ordered set.
    – Eric Wofsey
    Aug 27 at 0:23










  • @Lubin I'm not sure that's what I want because for now I don't see how I can apply it.
    – user531587
    Aug 27 at 0:24






  • 1




    Yes, that looks right to me. You can post it as answer here to your own question, actually.
    – Carl Mummert
    Aug 27 at 0:54














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2
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Theorem. There exists a well ordered set $A$ having a largest element $Omega$ such that the section $S_Omega$ of $A$ by $Omega$ is uncountable but every other section of $A$ is countable.



Proof. Consider an uncountable well ordered set $B$, consider $C=1,2times B$ with the lexicographic order and let $Omega $ be the smallest element of $C$ for which $S_Omega=xin C$ is uncountable. Let $A=S_OmegacupOmega$
.




I'm trying to show that $S_Omega$ has no largest element.



Assume the converse: there is $Gammain S_Omega$ such that $xle Gamma$ for all $xin S_Omega$. I need to use that $Gamma $ is a largest element. It's essential to consider $S_Gamma$ ($Gammain C$, and $S_Gamma$ is the section of $C$ by $Gamma$). Then $S_Gamma$ is countable. At the same time $S_Omega$ is not. But I don't see any contradiction here... I guess I need to invoke $Omega$ and prove something like $S_OmegacupOmega=S_Gamma$. But I don't see why this holds. $$S_Gamma=xin C: xle Gamma
\ S_OmegacupOmega=xin C: xle Omega$$
Do I need to use $xle Gamma$ for all $xin S_Omega$ somehow to prove the equality? I don't see how.







share|cite|improve this question


















  • 1




    Well, for infinite sets $X$ with an element $xin X$, the complement of $x$, i.e. $Xsetminusx$, is equipotent to $X$. Is that what you want?
    – Lubin
    Aug 27 at 0:20







  • 1




    It may help to realize that every infinite ordinal looks like a limit ordinal (no largest element) followed by a finite number (possibly zero) additional elements at the end. Removing the finite number of additional elements will make the ordinal smaller and will not change the cardinality of the ordinal.
    – Carl Mummert
    Aug 27 at 0:23










  • Certainly $S_OmegacupOmeganeq S_Gamma$, since $Omeganotin S_Omega$ and $S_Gamma$ is a subset of $S_Omega$. I would suggest you think about how $S_Gamma$ and $S_Omega$ are related. If it's not obvious, draw a picture of where all the relevant elements are in your well-ordered set.
    – Eric Wofsey
    Aug 27 at 0:23










  • @Lubin I'm not sure that's what I want because for now I don't see how I can apply it.
    – user531587
    Aug 27 at 0:24






  • 1




    Yes, that looks right to me. You can post it as answer here to your own question, actually.
    – Carl Mummert
    Aug 27 at 0:54












up vote
2
down vote

favorite









up vote
2
down vote

favorite












Theorem. There exists a well ordered set $A$ having a largest element $Omega$ such that the section $S_Omega$ of $A$ by $Omega$ is uncountable but every other section of $A$ is countable.



Proof. Consider an uncountable well ordered set $B$, consider $C=1,2times B$ with the lexicographic order and let $Omega $ be the smallest element of $C$ for which $S_Omega=xin C$ is uncountable. Let $A=S_OmegacupOmega$
.




I'm trying to show that $S_Omega$ has no largest element.



Assume the converse: there is $Gammain S_Omega$ such that $xle Gamma$ for all $xin S_Omega$. I need to use that $Gamma $ is a largest element. It's essential to consider $S_Gamma$ ($Gammain C$, and $S_Gamma$ is the section of $C$ by $Gamma$). Then $S_Gamma$ is countable. At the same time $S_Omega$ is not. But I don't see any contradiction here... I guess I need to invoke $Omega$ and prove something like $S_OmegacupOmega=S_Gamma$. But I don't see why this holds. $$S_Gamma=xin C: xle Gamma
\ S_OmegacupOmega=xin C: xle Omega$$
Do I need to use $xle Gamma$ for all $xin S_Omega$ somehow to prove the equality? I don't see how.







share|cite|improve this question















Theorem. There exists a well ordered set $A$ having a largest element $Omega$ such that the section $S_Omega$ of $A$ by $Omega$ is uncountable but every other section of $A$ is countable.



Proof. Consider an uncountable well ordered set $B$, consider $C=1,2times B$ with the lexicographic order and let $Omega $ be the smallest element of $C$ for which $S_Omega=xin C$ is uncountable. Let $A=S_OmegacupOmega$
.




I'm trying to show that $S_Omega$ has no largest element.



Assume the converse: there is $Gammain S_Omega$ such that $xle Gamma$ for all $xin S_Omega$. I need to use that $Gamma $ is a largest element. It's essential to consider $S_Gamma$ ($Gammain C$, and $S_Gamma$ is the section of $C$ by $Gamma$). Then $S_Gamma$ is countable. At the same time $S_Omega$ is not. But I don't see any contradiction here... I guess I need to invoke $Omega$ and prove something like $S_OmegacupOmega=S_Gamma$. But I don't see why this holds. $$S_Gamma=xin C: xle Gamma
\ S_OmegacupOmega=xin C: xle Omega$$
Do I need to use $xle Gamma$ for all $xin S_Omega$ somehow to prove the equality? I don't see how.









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edited Aug 27 at 0:39

























asked Aug 27 at 0:12









user531587

15710




15710







  • 1




    Well, for infinite sets $X$ with an element $xin X$, the complement of $x$, i.e. $Xsetminusx$, is equipotent to $X$. Is that what you want?
    – Lubin
    Aug 27 at 0:20







  • 1




    It may help to realize that every infinite ordinal looks like a limit ordinal (no largest element) followed by a finite number (possibly zero) additional elements at the end. Removing the finite number of additional elements will make the ordinal smaller and will not change the cardinality of the ordinal.
    – Carl Mummert
    Aug 27 at 0:23










  • Certainly $S_OmegacupOmeganeq S_Gamma$, since $Omeganotin S_Omega$ and $S_Gamma$ is a subset of $S_Omega$. I would suggest you think about how $S_Gamma$ and $S_Omega$ are related. If it's not obvious, draw a picture of where all the relevant elements are in your well-ordered set.
    – Eric Wofsey
    Aug 27 at 0:23










  • @Lubin I'm not sure that's what I want because for now I don't see how I can apply it.
    – user531587
    Aug 27 at 0:24






  • 1




    Yes, that looks right to me. You can post it as answer here to your own question, actually.
    – Carl Mummert
    Aug 27 at 0:54












  • 1




    Well, for infinite sets $X$ with an element $xin X$, the complement of $x$, i.e. $Xsetminusx$, is equipotent to $X$. Is that what you want?
    – Lubin
    Aug 27 at 0:20







  • 1




    It may help to realize that every infinite ordinal looks like a limit ordinal (no largest element) followed by a finite number (possibly zero) additional elements at the end. Removing the finite number of additional elements will make the ordinal smaller and will not change the cardinality of the ordinal.
    – Carl Mummert
    Aug 27 at 0:23










  • Certainly $S_OmegacupOmeganeq S_Gamma$, since $Omeganotin S_Omega$ and $S_Gamma$ is a subset of $S_Omega$. I would suggest you think about how $S_Gamma$ and $S_Omega$ are related. If it's not obvious, draw a picture of where all the relevant elements are in your well-ordered set.
    – Eric Wofsey
    Aug 27 at 0:23










  • @Lubin I'm not sure that's what I want because for now I don't see how I can apply it.
    – user531587
    Aug 27 at 0:24






  • 1




    Yes, that looks right to me. You can post it as answer here to your own question, actually.
    – Carl Mummert
    Aug 27 at 0:54







1




1




Well, for infinite sets $X$ with an element $xin X$, the complement of $x$, i.e. $Xsetminusx$, is equipotent to $X$. Is that what you want?
– Lubin
Aug 27 at 0:20





Well, for infinite sets $X$ with an element $xin X$, the complement of $x$, i.e. $Xsetminusx$, is equipotent to $X$. Is that what you want?
– Lubin
Aug 27 at 0:20





1




1




It may help to realize that every infinite ordinal looks like a limit ordinal (no largest element) followed by a finite number (possibly zero) additional elements at the end. Removing the finite number of additional elements will make the ordinal smaller and will not change the cardinality of the ordinal.
– Carl Mummert
Aug 27 at 0:23




It may help to realize that every infinite ordinal looks like a limit ordinal (no largest element) followed by a finite number (possibly zero) additional elements at the end. Removing the finite number of additional elements will make the ordinal smaller and will not change the cardinality of the ordinal.
– Carl Mummert
Aug 27 at 0:23












Certainly $S_OmegacupOmeganeq S_Gamma$, since $Omeganotin S_Omega$ and $S_Gamma$ is a subset of $S_Omega$. I would suggest you think about how $S_Gamma$ and $S_Omega$ are related. If it's not obvious, draw a picture of where all the relevant elements are in your well-ordered set.
– Eric Wofsey
Aug 27 at 0:23




Certainly $S_OmegacupOmeganeq S_Gamma$, since $Omeganotin S_Omega$ and $S_Gamma$ is a subset of $S_Omega$. I would suggest you think about how $S_Gamma$ and $S_Omega$ are related. If it's not obvious, draw a picture of where all the relevant elements are in your well-ordered set.
– Eric Wofsey
Aug 27 at 0:23












@Lubin I'm not sure that's what I want because for now I don't see how I can apply it.
– user531587
Aug 27 at 0:24




@Lubin I'm not sure that's what I want because for now I don't see how I can apply it.
– user531587
Aug 27 at 0:24




1




1




Yes, that looks right to me. You can post it as answer here to your own question, actually.
– Carl Mummert
Aug 27 at 0:54




Yes, that looks right to me. You can post it as answer here to your own question, actually.
– Carl Mummert
Aug 27 at 0:54










1 Answer
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Note that $S_GammacupGamma=S_Omega$ holds. Indeed, let $xin S_GammacupGamma$. If $x=Gamma$, then $xin S_Omega$ by the definition of $Gamma$. If $xin S_Gamma$, then $xin S_Omega$ because $Gamma in S_Omega$ (and so if $xle Gamma$, then $x < Omega$). Thus $S_GammacupGammasubseteq S_Omega$. Conversely, let $xin S_Omega$. Since $Gamma$ is a largest element, $xle Gamma$, which means $xin S_GammacupGamma$. Thus $S_GammacupGamma=S_Omega$.



Now $S_Omega$ is uncountable, so $S_Gamma$ must be uncountable. However, for any $tin C$ with $tne Omega$ (in particular for $t=Gamma$; note that $Gammane Omega$ because $Gammain S_Omega$ and $Omeganotin S_Omega$), $S_t$ is countable. This is a contradiction.






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    Note that $S_GammacupGamma=S_Omega$ holds. Indeed, let $xin S_GammacupGamma$. If $x=Gamma$, then $xin S_Omega$ by the definition of $Gamma$. If $xin S_Gamma$, then $xin S_Omega$ because $Gamma in S_Omega$ (and so if $xle Gamma$, then $x < Omega$). Thus $S_GammacupGammasubseteq S_Omega$. Conversely, let $xin S_Omega$. Since $Gamma$ is a largest element, $xle Gamma$, which means $xin S_GammacupGamma$. Thus $S_GammacupGamma=S_Omega$.



    Now $S_Omega$ is uncountable, so $S_Gamma$ must be uncountable. However, for any $tin C$ with $tne Omega$ (in particular for $t=Gamma$; note that $Gammane Omega$ because $Gammain S_Omega$ and $Omeganotin S_Omega$), $S_t$ is countable. This is a contradiction.






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      Note that $S_GammacupGamma=S_Omega$ holds. Indeed, let $xin S_GammacupGamma$. If $x=Gamma$, then $xin S_Omega$ by the definition of $Gamma$. If $xin S_Gamma$, then $xin S_Omega$ because $Gamma in S_Omega$ (and so if $xle Gamma$, then $x < Omega$). Thus $S_GammacupGammasubseteq S_Omega$. Conversely, let $xin S_Omega$. Since $Gamma$ is a largest element, $xle Gamma$, which means $xin S_GammacupGamma$. Thus $S_GammacupGamma=S_Omega$.



      Now $S_Omega$ is uncountable, so $S_Gamma$ must be uncountable. However, for any $tin C$ with $tne Omega$ (in particular for $t=Gamma$; note that $Gammane Omega$ because $Gammain S_Omega$ and $Omeganotin S_Omega$), $S_t$ is countable. This is a contradiction.






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        Note that $S_GammacupGamma=S_Omega$ holds. Indeed, let $xin S_GammacupGamma$. If $x=Gamma$, then $xin S_Omega$ by the definition of $Gamma$. If $xin S_Gamma$, then $xin S_Omega$ because $Gamma in S_Omega$ (and so if $xle Gamma$, then $x < Omega$). Thus $S_GammacupGammasubseteq S_Omega$. Conversely, let $xin S_Omega$. Since $Gamma$ is a largest element, $xle Gamma$, which means $xin S_GammacupGamma$. Thus $S_GammacupGamma=S_Omega$.



        Now $S_Omega$ is uncountable, so $S_Gamma$ must be uncountable. However, for any $tin C$ with $tne Omega$ (in particular for $t=Gamma$; note that $Gammane Omega$ because $Gammain S_Omega$ and $Omeganotin S_Omega$), $S_t$ is countable. This is a contradiction.






        share|cite|improve this answer












        Note that $S_GammacupGamma=S_Omega$ holds. Indeed, let $xin S_GammacupGamma$. If $x=Gamma$, then $xin S_Omega$ by the definition of $Gamma$. If $xin S_Gamma$, then $xin S_Omega$ because $Gamma in S_Omega$ (and so if $xle Gamma$, then $x < Omega$). Thus $S_GammacupGammasubseteq S_Omega$. Conversely, let $xin S_Omega$. Since $Gamma$ is a largest element, $xle Gamma$, which means $xin S_GammacupGamma$. Thus $S_GammacupGamma=S_Omega$.



        Now $S_Omega$ is uncountable, so $S_Gamma$ must be uncountable. However, for any $tin C$ with $tne Omega$ (in particular for $t=Gamma$; note that $Gammane Omega$ because $Gammain S_Omega$ and $Omeganotin S_Omega$), $S_t$ is countable. This is a contradiction.







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        answered Aug 27 at 1:01









        user531587

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