The multiplicative groups $mathbbQ^ast$ and $mathbbR^ast$ are not isomorphic
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Of course, since the cardinality of $mathbbR$ exceeds the cardinality of $mathbbQ$, there does not exist a bijection between $mathbbQ^ast$ and $mathbbR^ast$, let alone a group isomorphism.
My question is whether it is also possible to prove that these multiplicative groups are not isomorphic without using a cardinality argument.
group-theory alternative-proof group-isomorphism
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Of course, since the cardinality of $mathbbR$ exceeds the cardinality of $mathbbQ$, there does not exist a bijection between $mathbbQ^ast$ and $mathbbR^ast$, let alone a group isomorphism.
My question is whether it is also possible to prove that these multiplicative groups are not isomorphic without using a cardinality argument.
group-theory alternative-proof group-isomorphism
Related: Does there exist any surjective group homomrophism from $R^times$ onto $Q^times$)
â quidâ¦
Aug 23 '16 at 22:00
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up vote
10
down vote
favorite
up vote
10
down vote
favorite
Of course, since the cardinality of $mathbbR$ exceeds the cardinality of $mathbbQ$, there does not exist a bijection between $mathbbQ^ast$ and $mathbbR^ast$, let alone a group isomorphism.
My question is whether it is also possible to prove that these multiplicative groups are not isomorphic without using a cardinality argument.
group-theory alternative-proof group-isomorphism
Of course, since the cardinality of $mathbbR$ exceeds the cardinality of $mathbbQ$, there does not exist a bijection between $mathbbQ^ast$ and $mathbbR^ast$, let alone a group isomorphism.
My question is whether it is also possible to prove that these multiplicative groups are not isomorphic without using a cardinality argument.
group-theory alternative-proof group-isomorphism
edited Aug 24 '16 at 8:44
Watson
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14.8k92866
asked Aug 23 '16 at 21:28
user133281
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13.4k22450
Related: Does there exist any surjective group homomrophism from $R^times$ onto $Q^times$)
â quidâ¦
Aug 23 '16 at 22:00
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Related: Does there exist any surjective group homomrophism from $R^times$ onto $Q^times$)
â quidâ¦
Aug 23 '16 at 22:00
Related: Does there exist any surjective group homomrophism from $R^times$ onto $Q^times$)
â quidâ¦
Aug 23 '16 at 22:00
Related: Does there exist any surjective group homomrophism from $R^times$ onto $Q^times$)
â quidâ¦
Aug 23 '16 at 22:00
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4 Answers
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In $mathbbR^ast$ every element has a cuberoot; that is, for any $a$ in $mathbbR^ast$ there is an element $b$ such that $b^3=a$. In $mathbbQ^ast$ there are elements that do not.
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Let $f:R^*rightarrow Q^*$ be an isomorphism, remark that if $f(x)=-1, f(x^2)=1$, since $f$ is an isomorphism, it implies that $x^2=1$ and $x=-1$ since $f(1)=1$.
There exists $xin R^*, f(x)=2$, if $x>0, f(sqrt x)^2=2$ impossible. If $x<0, f(sqrt -xsqrt-x)=f(-x)=f(-1)f(x)=-2=f(sqrt-x)^2$ Impossible.
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Suppose $phi: mathbbQ^ast to mathbbR^ast$ is an isomorphism. Let $a in mathbbQ^ast$ satisfy $phi(a)=2$. For each $n$, there is an element $b in mathbbQ^ast$ with $phi(b)=2^1/n$. Now $phi(b^n) = phi(b)^n = (2^1/n)^n = 2 = phi(a)$, so $b^n = a$. It follows that $a$ is an $n$-th power for all $n$. But then it follows that $a=1$, contradiction.
Similarly, one could show that $a'=1$ where $phi(a')=3$. So then $phi(1)$ is equal to both $2$ and $3$.
â user133281
Aug 23 '16 at 21:58
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Suppose that $f:BbbR^*toBbbQ^*$ is a such homomorphism. Then we have some $x$ such that $f(x)=2$. Now take a cube root $sqrt[3]x$ of $x$, which always exists in $mathbbR^*$. Then $(f(sqrt[3]x))^3 = f(x) = 2$, i.e. $f(sqrt[3]x)$ is a cube root of $2$. But $2$ has no cube root in $mathbbQ^*$, so this is a contradiction.
1
This is exactly the argument in the accepted answer.
â Tobias Kildetoft
Aug 16 at 7:51
sorry@TobiasKildetoft
â stupid
Aug 16 at 7:53
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4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
9
down vote
accepted
In $mathbbR^ast$ every element has a cuberoot; that is, for any $a$ in $mathbbR^ast$ there is an element $b$ such that $b^3=a$. In $mathbbQ^ast$ there are elements that do not.
add a comment |Â
up vote
9
down vote
accepted
In $mathbbR^ast$ every element has a cuberoot; that is, for any $a$ in $mathbbR^ast$ there is an element $b$ such that $b^3=a$. In $mathbbQ^ast$ there are elements that do not.
add a comment |Â
up vote
9
down vote
accepted
up vote
9
down vote
accepted
In $mathbbR^ast$ every element has a cuberoot; that is, for any $a$ in $mathbbR^ast$ there is an element $b$ such that $b^3=a$. In $mathbbQ^ast$ there are elements that do not.
In $mathbbR^ast$ every element has a cuberoot; that is, for any $a$ in $mathbbR^ast$ there is an element $b$ such that $b^3=a$. In $mathbbQ^ast$ there are elements that do not.
answered Aug 23 '16 at 21:42
Josh B.
2,38511323
2,38511323
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Let $f:R^*rightarrow Q^*$ be an isomorphism, remark that if $f(x)=-1, f(x^2)=1$, since $f$ is an isomorphism, it implies that $x^2=1$ and $x=-1$ since $f(1)=1$.
There exists $xin R^*, f(x)=2$, if $x>0, f(sqrt x)^2=2$ impossible. If $x<0, f(sqrt -xsqrt-x)=f(-x)=f(-1)f(x)=-2=f(sqrt-x)^2$ Impossible.
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
Let $f:R^*rightarrow Q^*$ be an isomorphism, remark that if $f(x)=-1, f(x^2)=1$, since $f$ is an isomorphism, it implies that $x^2=1$ and $x=-1$ since $f(1)=1$.
There exists $xin R^*, f(x)=2$, if $x>0, f(sqrt x)^2=2$ impossible. If $x<0, f(sqrt -xsqrt-x)=f(-x)=f(-1)f(x)=-2=f(sqrt-x)^2$ Impossible.
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
Let $f:R^*rightarrow Q^*$ be an isomorphism, remark that if $f(x)=-1, f(x^2)=1$, since $f$ is an isomorphism, it implies that $x^2=1$ and $x=-1$ since $f(1)=1$.
There exists $xin R^*, f(x)=2$, if $x>0, f(sqrt x)^2=2$ impossible. If $x<0, f(sqrt -xsqrt-x)=f(-x)=f(-1)f(x)=-2=f(sqrt-x)^2$ Impossible.
Let $f:R^*rightarrow Q^*$ be an isomorphism, remark that if $f(x)=-1, f(x^2)=1$, since $f$ is an isomorphism, it implies that $x^2=1$ and $x=-1$ since $f(1)=1$.
There exists $xin R^*, f(x)=2$, if $x>0, f(sqrt x)^2=2$ impossible. If $x<0, f(sqrt -xsqrt-x)=f(-x)=f(-1)f(x)=-2=f(sqrt-x)^2$ Impossible.
answered Aug 23 '16 at 21:41
Tsemo Aristide
51.7k11244
51.7k11244
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Suppose $phi: mathbbQ^ast to mathbbR^ast$ is an isomorphism. Let $a in mathbbQ^ast$ satisfy $phi(a)=2$. For each $n$, there is an element $b in mathbbQ^ast$ with $phi(b)=2^1/n$. Now $phi(b^n) = phi(b)^n = (2^1/n)^n = 2 = phi(a)$, so $b^n = a$. It follows that $a$ is an $n$-th power for all $n$. But then it follows that $a=1$, contradiction.
Similarly, one could show that $a'=1$ where $phi(a')=3$. So then $phi(1)$ is equal to both $2$ and $3$.
â user133281
Aug 23 '16 at 21:58
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
Suppose $phi: mathbbQ^ast to mathbbR^ast$ is an isomorphism. Let $a in mathbbQ^ast$ satisfy $phi(a)=2$. For each $n$, there is an element $b in mathbbQ^ast$ with $phi(b)=2^1/n$. Now $phi(b^n) = phi(b)^n = (2^1/n)^n = 2 = phi(a)$, so $b^n = a$. It follows that $a$ is an $n$-th power for all $n$. But then it follows that $a=1$, contradiction.
Similarly, one could show that $a'=1$ where $phi(a')=3$. So then $phi(1)$ is equal to both $2$ and $3$.
â user133281
Aug 23 '16 at 21:58
add a comment |Â
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
Suppose $phi: mathbbQ^ast to mathbbR^ast$ is an isomorphism. Let $a in mathbbQ^ast$ satisfy $phi(a)=2$. For each $n$, there is an element $b in mathbbQ^ast$ with $phi(b)=2^1/n$. Now $phi(b^n) = phi(b)^n = (2^1/n)^n = 2 = phi(a)$, so $b^n = a$. It follows that $a$ is an $n$-th power for all $n$. But then it follows that $a=1$, contradiction.
Suppose $phi: mathbbQ^ast to mathbbR^ast$ is an isomorphism. Let $a in mathbbQ^ast$ satisfy $phi(a)=2$. For each $n$, there is an element $b in mathbbQ^ast$ with $phi(b)=2^1/n$. Now $phi(b^n) = phi(b)^n = (2^1/n)^n = 2 = phi(a)$, so $b^n = a$. It follows that $a$ is an $n$-th power for all $n$. But then it follows that $a=1$, contradiction.
answered Aug 23 '16 at 21:50
user133281
13.4k22450
13.4k22450
Similarly, one could show that $a'=1$ where $phi(a')=3$. So then $phi(1)$ is equal to both $2$ and $3$.
â user133281
Aug 23 '16 at 21:58
add a comment |Â
Similarly, one could show that $a'=1$ where $phi(a')=3$. So then $phi(1)$ is equal to both $2$ and $3$.
â user133281
Aug 23 '16 at 21:58
Similarly, one could show that $a'=1$ where $phi(a')=3$. So then $phi(1)$ is equal to both $2$ and $3$.
â user133281
Aug 23 '16 at 21:58
Similarly, one could show that $a'=1$ where $phi(a')=3$. So then $phi(1)$ is equal to both $2$ and $3$.
â user133281
Aug 23 '16 at 21:58
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
Suppose that $f:BbbR^*toBbbQ^*$ is a such homomorphism. Then we have some $x$ such that $f(x)=2$. Now take a cube root $sqrt[3]x$ of $x$, which always exists in $mathbbR^*$. Then $(f(sqrt[3]x))^3 = f(x) = 2$, i.e. $f(sqrt[3]x)$ is a cube root of $2$. But $2$ has no cube root in $mathbbQ^*$, so this is a contradiction.
1
This is exactly the argument in the accepted answer.
â Tobias Kildetoft
Aug 16 at 7:51
sorry@TobiasKildetoft
â stupid
Aug 16 at 7:53
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
Suppose that $f:BbbR^*toBbbQ^*$ is a such homomorphism. Then we have some $x$ such that $f(x)=2$. Now take a cube root $sqrt[3]x$ of $x$, which always exists in $mathbbR^*$. Then $(f(sqrt[3]x))^3 = f(x) = 2$, i.e. $f(sqrt[3]x)$ is a cube root of $2$. But $2$ has no cube root in $mathbbQ^*$, so this is a contradiction.
1
This is exactly the argument in the accepted answer.
â Tobias Kildetoft
Aug 16 at 7:51
sorry@TobiasKildetoft
â stupid
Aug 16 at 7:53
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
Suppose that $f:BbbR^*toBbbQ^*$ is a such homomorphism. Then we have some $x$ such that $f(x)=2$. Now take a cube root $sqrt[3]x$ of $x$, which always exists in $mathbbR^*$. Then $(f(sqrt[3]x))^3 = f(x) = 2$, i.e. $f(sqrt[3]x)$ is a cube root of $2$. But $2$ has no cube root in $mathbbQ^*$, so this is a contradiction.
Suppose that $f:BbbR^*toBbbQ^*$ is a such homomorphism. Then we have some $x$ such that $f(x)=2$. Now take a cube root $sqrt[3]x$ of $x$, which always exists in $mathbbR^*$. Then $(f(sqrt[3]x))^3 = f(x) = 2$, i.e. $f(sqrt[3]x)$ is a cube root of $2$. But $2$ has no cube root in $mathbbQ^*$, so this is a contradiction.
answered Aug 16 at 7:47
stupid
630110
630110
1
This is exactly the argument in the accepted answer.
â Tobias Kildetoft
Aug 16 at 7:51
sorry@TobiasKildetoft
â stupid
Aug 16 at 7:53
add a comment |Â
1
This is exactly the argument in the accepted answer.
â Tobias Kildetoft
Aug 16 at 7:51
sorry@TobiasKildetoft
â stupid
Aug 16 at 7:53
1
1
This is exactly the argument in the accepted answer.
â Tobias Kildetoft
Aug 16 at 7:51
This is exactly the argument in the accepted answer.
â Tobias Kildetoft
Aug 16 at 7:51
sorry@TobiasKildetoft
â stupid
Aug 16 at 7:53
sorry@TobiasKildetoft
â stupid
Aug 16 at 7:53
add a comment |Â
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Related: Does there exist any surjective group homomrophism from $R^times$ onto $Q^times$)
â quidâ¦
Aug 23 '16 at 22:00