Do there exist finite non-cyclic groups $H$ and $K$, satisfying the specific condition?
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LetâÂÂs define $sigma(G)$ as the sum of orders of all normal subgroups of a finite group $G$. Do there exist two finite groups $H$ and $K$ such, that $sigma(H) = |H| + |K| = sigma(K)$ and $H$ is non-cyclic?
Why $H$ is required to be non-cyclic? A pair of cyclic groups $H$ and $K$ satisfies that condition iff $|H|$ and $|K|$ form an amicable pair. And it would be interesting to know, what happens if at least one of those groups is non-cyclic.
abstract-algebra group-theory finite-groups normal-subgroups
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LetâÂÂs define $sigma(G)$ as the sum of orders of all normal subgroups of a finite group $G$. Do there exist two finite groups $H$ and $K$ such, that $sigma(H) = |H| + |K| = sigma(K)$ and $H$ is non-cyclic?
Why $H$ is required to be non-cyclic? A pair of cyclic groups $H$ and $K$ satisfies that condition iff $|H|$ and $|K|$ form an amicable pair. And it would be interesting to know, what happens if at least one of those groups is non-cyclic.
abstract-algebra group-theory finite-groups normal-subgroups
Shouldn't there be some relation between $H, K$ and $G$?
â Guido A.
Aug 16 at 11:02
1
@GuidoA., $G$ is just a symbol for an arbitrary finite group in the definition of a function $sigma(G)$ from finite groups to natural numbers. The only groups that are "present" in this question are $H$ and $K$.
â Yanior Weg
Aug 16 at 11:11
add a comment |Â
up vote
5
down vote
favorite
up vote
5
down vote
favorite
LetâÂÂs define $sigma(G)$ as the sum of orders of all normal subgroups of a finite group $G$. Do there exist two finite groups $H$ and $K$ such, that $sigma(H) = |H| + |K| = sigma(K)$ and $H$ is non-cyclic?
Why $H$ is required to be non-cyclic? A pair of cyclic groups $H$ and $K$ satisfies that condition iff $|H|$ and $|K|$ form an amicable pair. And it would be interesting to know, what happens if at least one of those groups is non-cyclic.
abstract-algebra group-theory finite-groups normal-subgroups
LetâÂÂs define $sigma(G)$ as the sum of orders of all normal subgroups of a finite group $G$. Do there exist two finite groups $H$ and $K$ such, that $sigma(H) = |H| + |K| = sigma(K)$ and $H$ is non-cyclic?
Why $H$ is required to be non-cyclic? A pair of cyclic groups $H$ and $K$ satisfies that condition iff $|H|$ and $|K|$ form an amicable pair. And it would be interesting to know, what happens if at least one of those groups is non-cyclic.
abstract-algebra group-theory finite-groups normal-subgroups
edited Aug 16 at 11:15
asked Aug 16 at 10:58
Yanior Weg
1,0441730
1,0441730
Shouldn't there be some relation between $H, K$ and $G$?
â Guido A.
Aug 16 at 11:02
1
@GuidoA., $G$ is just a symbol for an arbitrary finite group in the definition of a function $sigma(G)$ from finite groups to natural numbers. The only groups that are "present" in this question are $H$ and $K$.
â Yanior Weg
Aug 16 at 11:11
add a comment |Â
Shouldn't there be some relation between $H, K$ and $G$?
â Guido A.
Aug 16 at 11:02
1
@GuidoA., $G$ is just a symbol for an arbitrary finite group in the definition of a function $sigma(G)$ from finite groups to natural numbers. The only groups that are "present" in this question are $H$ and $K$.
â Yanior Weg
Aug 16 at 11:11
Shouldn't there be some relation between $H, K$ and $G$?
â Guido A.
Aug 16 at 11:02
Shouldn't there be some relation between $H, K$ and $G$?
â Guido A.
Aug 16 at 11:02
1
1
@GuidoA., $G$ is just a symbol for an arbitrary finite group in the definition of a function $sigma(G)$ from finite groups to natural numbers. The only groups that are "present" in this question are $H$ and $K$.
â Yanior Weg
Aug 16 at 11:11
@GuidoA., $G$ is just a symbol for an arbitrary finite group in the definition of a function $sigma(G)$ from finite groups to natural numbers. The only groups that are "present" in this question are $H$ and $K$.
â Yanior Weg
Aug 16 at 11:11
add a comment |Â
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
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up vote
6
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A quick MAGMA code I wrote finds the following example with $$H=D_10 quad , K=D_19$$ Indeed, in both cases
$sigma(K)=1+19+38=58$
$sigma(H)=1+2+5+10+10+10+20= 58$
and $|H|+|K|=20+38 =58$.
Here is the very naive and probably bugged (the $i^j$ indexing definitely doesn't work, $2^4 = 4^2$ so I am missing some examples, and it checks everything twice which is not efficient) code if you are interested. I checked for examples up to $60$.
N:=60;
A:=AssociativeArray();
A[1]:=1;
for i in [2..N] do
w:=NumberOfSmallGroups(i);
for j in [1..w] do
G:=SmallGroup(i,j);
S:=NormalSubgroups(G);
h:=0;
for k in [1..#S] do
h:=h+Order(S[k]`subgroup);
end for;
A[i^j]:=h;
end for;
end for;
for i in [2..N] do
w:=NumberOfSmallGroups(i);
for j in [1..w] do
for a in [2..N] do
y:=NumberOfSmallGroups(a);
for b in [1..y] do
if A[i^j] eq i+a then
if A[a^b] eq i+a then print "(",i,j,")","(",a,b,")", A[i^j], A[a^b];
end if; end if; end for; end for; end for; end for;
And the output
( 12 1 ) ( 12 1 ) 24 24
( 20 4 ) ( 38 1 ) 58 58
( 24 1 ) ( 28 1 ) 52 52
( 28 1 ) ( 24 1 ) 52 52
( 28 2 ) ( 28 2 ) 56 56
( 30 1 ) ( 30 1 ) 60 60
( 38 1 ) ( 20 4 ) 58 58
( 56 1 ) ( 56 1 ) 112 112
Note that it also contains other examples that might be interesting of "self-amicable groups", such as SmallGroup(30,1) $= C_5 times S_3$.
By self-amicable I mean that they mimic the behaviour of $28$ which forms an amicable pair with itself (realised in group theory by $C_28$).
Edit: found this paper https://arxiv.org/pdf/math/0104012.pdf
Edit 2: found this paper as well http://cage.ugent.be/~tdemedts/preprints/leinster.pdf
1
Your count for $C_38$ is not right. There is also a subgroup of order $2$.
â Tobias Kildetoft
Aug 16 at 11:40
1
Uh oh, you're right. SmallGroup(38,1) is apparently $D_19$ and not $C_38$ (!!). Thank you
â AnalysisStudent0414
Aug 16 at 11:43
Ahh, that makes the numbers fit, yeah.
â Tobias Kildetoft
Aug 16 at 11:45
add a comment |Â
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
6
down vote
accepted
A quick MAGMA code I wrote finds the following example with $$H=D_10 quad , K=D_19$$ Indeed, in both cases
$sigma(K)=1+19+38=58$
$sigma(H)=1+2+5+10+10+10+20= 58$
and $|H|+|K|=20+38 =58$.
Here is the very naive and probably bugged (the $i^j$ indexing definitely doesn't work, $2^4 = 4^2$ so I am missing some examples, and it checks everything twice which is not efficient) code if you are interested. I checked for examples up to $60$.
N:=60;
A:=AssociativeArray();
A[1]:=1;
for i in [2..N] do
w:=NumberOfSmallGroups(i);
for j in [1..w] do
G:=SmallGroup(i,j);
S:=NormalSubgroups(G);
h:=0;
for k in [1..#S] do
h:=h+Order(S[k]`subgroup);
end for;
A[i^j]:=h;
end for;
end for;
for i in [2..N] do
w:=NumberOfSmallGroups(i);
for j in [1..w] do
for a in [2..N] do
y:=NumberOfSmallGroups(a);
for b in [1..y] do
if A[i^j] eq i+a then
if A[a^b] eq i+a then print "(",i,j,")","(",a,b,")", A[i^j], A[a^b];
end if; end if; end for; end for; end for; end for;
And the output
( 12 1 ) ( 12 1 ) 24 24
( 20 4 ) ( 38 1 ) 58 58
( 24 1 ) ( 28 1 ) 52 52
( 28 1 ) ( 24 1 ) 52 52
( 28 2 ) ( 28 2 ) 56 56
( 30 1 ) ( 30 1 ) 60 60
( 38 1 ) ( 20 4 ) 58 58
( 56 1 ) ( 56 1 ) 112 112
Note that it also contains other examples that might be interesting of "self-amicable groups", such as SmallGroup(30,1) $= C_5 times S_3$.
By self-amicable I mean that they mimic the behaviour of $28$ which forms an amicable pair with itself (realised in group theory by $C_28$).
Edit: found this paper https://arxiv.org/pdf/math/0104012.pdf
Edit 2: found this paper as well http://cage.ugent.be/~tdemedts/preprints/leinster.pdf
1
Your count for $C_38$ is not right. There is also a subgroup of order $2$.
â Tobias Kildetoft
Aug 16 at 11:40
1
Uh oh, you're right. SmallGroup(38,1) is apparently $D_19$ and not $C_38$ (!!). Thank you
â AnalysisStudent0414
Aug 16 at 11:43
Ahh, that makes the numbers fit, yeah.
â Tobias Kildetoft
Aug 16 at 11:45
add a comment |Â
up vote
6
down vote
accepted
A quick MAGMA code I wrote finds the following example with $$H=D_10 quad , K=D_19$$ Indeed, in both cases
$sigma(K)=1+19+38=58$
$sigma(H)=1+2+5+10+10+10+20= 58$
and $|H|+|K|=20+38 =58$.
Here is the very naive and probably bugged (the $i^j$ indexing definitely doesn't work, $2^4 = 4^2$ so I am missing some examples, and it checks everything twice which is not efficient) code if you are interested. I checked for examples up to $60$.
N:=60;
A:=AssociativeArray();
A[1]:=1;
for i in [2..N] do
w:=NumberOfSmallGroups(i);
for j in [1..w] do
G:=SmallGroup(i,j);
S:=NormalSubgroups(G);
h:=0;
for k in [1..#S] do
h:=h+Order(S[k]`subgroup);
end for;
A[i^j]:=h;
end for;
end for;
for i in [2..N] do
w:=NumberOfSmallGroups(i);
for j in [1..w] do
for a in [2..N] do
y:=NumberOfSmallGroups(a);
for b in [1..y] do
if A[i^j] eq i+a then
if A[a^b] eq i+a then print "(",i,j,")","(",a,b,")", A[i^j], A[a^b];
end if; end if; end for; end for; end for; end for;
And the output
( 12 1 ) ( 12 1 ) 24 24
( 20 4 ) ( 38 1 ) 58 58
( 24 1 ) ( 28 1 ) 52 52
( 28 1 ) ( 24 1 ) 52 52
( 28 2 ) ( 28 2 ) 56 56
( 30 1 ) ( 30 1 ) 60 60
( 38 1 ) ( 20 4 ) 58 58
( 56 1 ) ( 56 1 ) 112 112
Note that it also contains other examples that might be interesting of "self-amicable groups", such as SmallGroup(30,1) $= C_5 times S_3$.
By self-amicable I mean that they mimic the behaviour of $28$ which forms an amicable pair with itself (realised in group theory by $C_28$).
Edit: found this paper https://arxiv.org/pdf/math/0104012.pdf
Edit 2: found this paper as well http://cage.ugent.be/~tdemedts/preprints/leinster.pdf
1
Your count for $C_38$ is not right. There is also a subgroup of order $2$.
â Tobias Kildetoft
Aug 16 at 11:40
1
Uh oh, you're right. SmallGroup(38,1) is apparently $D_19$ and not $C_38$ (!!). Thank you
â AnalysisStudent0414
Aug 16 at 11:43
Ahh, that makes the numbers fit, yeah.
â Tobias Kildetoft
Aug 16 at 11:45
add a comment |Â
up vote
6
down vote
accepted
up vote
6
down vote
accepted
A quick MAGMA code I wrote finds the following example with $$H=D_10 quad , K=D_19$$ Indeed, in both cases
$sigma(K)=1+19+38=58$
$sigma(H)=1+2+5+10+10+10+20= 58$
and $|H|+|K|=20+38 =58$.
Here is the very naive and probably bugged (the $i^j$ indexing definitely doesn't work, $2^4 = 4^2$ so I am missing some examples, and it checks everything twice which is not efficient) code if you are interested. I checked for examples up to $60$.
N:=60;
A:=AssociativeArray();
A[1]:=1;
for i in [2..N] do
w:=NumberOfSmallGroups(i);
for j in [1..w] do
G:=SmallGroup(i,j);
S:=NormalSubgroups(G);
h:=0;
for k in [1..#S] do
h:=h+Order(S[k]`subgroup);
end for;
A[i^j]:=h;
end for;
end for;
for i in [2..N] do
w:=NumberOfSmallGroups(i);
for j in [1..w] do
for a in [2..N] do
y:=NumberOfSmallGroups(a);
for b in [1..y] do
if A[i^j] eq i+a then
if A[a^b] eq i+a then print "(",i,j,")","(",a,b,")", A[i^j], A[a^b];
end if; end if; end for; end for; end for; end for;
And the output
( 12 1 ) ( 12 1 ) 24 24
( 20 4 ) ( 38 1 ) 58 58
( 24 1 ) ( 28 1 ) 52 52
( 28 1 ) ( 24 1 ) 52 52
( 28 2 ) ( 28 2 ) 56 56
( 30 1 ) ( 30 1 ) 60 60
( 38 1 ) ( 20 4 ) 58 58
( 56 1 ) ( 56 1 ) 112 112
Note that it also contains other examples that might be interesting of "self-amicable groups", such as SmallGroup(30,1) $= C_5 times S_3$.
By self-amicable I mean that they mimic the behaviour of $28$ which forms an amicable pair with itself (realised in group theory by $C_28$).
Edit: found this paper https://arxiv.org/pdf/math/0104012.pdf
Edit 2: found this paper as well http://cage.ugent.be/~tdemedts/preprints/leinster.pdf
A quick MAGMA code I wrote finds the following example with $$H=D_10 quad , K=D_19$$ Indeed, in both cases
$sigma(K)=1+19+38=58$
$sigma(H)=1+2+5+10+10+10+20= 58$
and $|H|+|K|=20+38 =58$.
Here is the very naive and probably bugged (the $i^j$ indexing definitely doesn't work, $2^4 = 4^2$ so I am missing some examples, and it checks everything twice which is not efficient) code if you are interested. I checked for examples up to $60$.
N:=60;
A:=AssociativeArray();
A[1]:=1;
for i in [2..N] do
w:=NumberOfSmallGroups(i);
for j in [1..w] do
G:=SmallGroup(i,j);
S:=NormalSubgroups(G);
h:=0;
for k in [1..#S] do
h:=h+Order(S[k]`subgroup);
end for;
A[i^j]:=h;
end for;
end for;
for i in [2..N] do
w:=NumberOfSmallGroups(i);
for j in [1..w] do
for a in [2..N] do
y:=NumberOfSmallGroups(a);
for b in [1..y] do
if A[i^j] eq i+a then
if A[a^b] eq i+a then print "(",i,j,")","(",a,b,")", A[i^j], A[a^b];
end if; end if; end for; end for; end for; end for;
And the output
( 12 1 ) ( 12 1 ) 24 24
( 20 4 ) ( 38 1 ) 58 58
( 24 1 ) ( 28 1 ) 52 52
( 28 1 ) ( 24 1 ) 52 52
( 28 2 ) ( 28 2 ) 56 56
( 30 1 ) ( 30 1 ) 60 60
( 38 1 ) ( 20 4 ) 58 58
( 56 1 ) ( 56 1 ) 112 112
Note that it also contains other examples that might be interesting of "self-amicable groups", such as SmallGroup(30,1) $= C_5 times S_3$.
By self-amicable I mean that they mimic the behaviour of $28$ which forms an amicable pair with itself (realised in group theory by $C_28$).
Edit: found this paper https://arxiv.org/pdf/math/0104012.pdf
Edit 2: found this paper as well http://cage.ugent.be/~tdemedts/preprints/leinster.pdf
edited Aug 17 at 12:56
answered Aug 16 at 11:36
AnalysisStudent0414
4,281828
4,281828
1
Your count for $C_38$ is not right. There is also a subgroup of order $2$.
â Tobias Kildetoft
Aug 16 at 11:40
1
Uh oh, you're right. SmallGroup(38,1) is apparently $D_19$ and not $C_38$ (!!). Thank you
â AnalysisStudent0414
Aug 16 at 11:43
Ahh, that makes the numbers fit, yeah.
â Tobias Kildetoft
Aug 16 at 11:45
add a comment |Â
1
Your count for $C_38$ is not right. There is also a subgroup of order $2$.
â Tobias Kildetoft
Aug 16 at 11:40
1
Uh oh, you're right. SmallGroup(38,1) is apparently $D_19$ and not $C_38$ (!!). Thank you
â AnalysisStudent0414
Aug 16 at 11:43
Ahh, that makes the numbers fit, yeah.
â Tobias Kildetoft
Aug 16 at 11:45
1
1
Your count for $C_38$ is not right. There is also a subgroup of order $2$.
â Tobias Kildetoft
Aug 16 at 11:40
Your count for $C_38$ is not right. There is also a subgroup of order $2$.
â Tobias Kildetoft
Aug 16 at 11:40
1
1
Uh oh, you're right. SmallGroup(38,1) is apparently $D_19$ and not $C_38$ (!!). Thank you
â AnalysisStudent0414
Aug 16 at 11:43
Uh oh, you're right. SmallGroup(38,1) is apparently $D_19$ and not $C_38$ (!!). Thank you
â AnalysisStudent0414
Aug 16 at 11:43
Ahh, that makes the numbers fit, yeah.
â Tobias Kildetoft
Aug 16 at 11:45
Ahh, that makes the numbers fit, yeah.
â Tobias Kildetoft
Aug 16 at 11:45
add a comment |Â
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Shouldn't there be some relation between $H, K$ and $G$?
â Guido A.
Aug 16 at 11:02
1
@GuidoA., $G$ is just a symbol for an arbitrary finite group in the definition of a function $sigma(G)$ from finite groups to natural numbers. The only groups that are "present" in this question are $H$ and $K$.
â Yanior Weg
Aug 16 at 11:11