Is it possible to construct a model of oracle Turing machines that correspond to $omega_n^textCK$, where $n$ is greater than $1$?

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I have found the following quotes. Quote $1$ ( source ):
In computability theory, Turing Machines+BB oracles correspond to the same ordinal as ordinary Turing Machines ($omega_1^textCK$). In googology, BB oracles correspond to $ omega_1^textCK times 2 $ to the FGH.
(note that âÂÂBB oraclesâ here denote the oracles that can compute the Busy Beaver function for the lower-order Turing machines).
Quote $2$ ( source ):
With access to the halting oracle, you still cannot compute ordinals greater than $ omega_1^textCK $. The set of computable ordinals is, in fact, still the same. However, given an oracle for $ omega_1^textCK $, we can compute larger ordinals, and in fact the ordinals computable from $ omega_1^textCK $ are exactly the ones below $ omega_2^textCK $.
(in this quote, I donâÂÂt understand what âÂÂan oracle for $omega_1^textCK$â means).
Quote $3$ ( source ):
Adam Goucher admited he was wrong when he first wrote about strength of $Sigma_2(n)$. It is actually $omega_2^CK$, well over $omega_1^CK times 2$.
(note that $Sigma_2(n)$ here denotes the Busy Beaver function for the second-order oracle Turing machines, that is, Turing machines equipped with an oracle that can compute the Busy Beaver function for the first-order Turing machines).
It seems like Quote $3$ contradicts Quote $1$, and the question is: is it possible (if yes, then how?) to construct a model of Turing machines that correspond to $ omega_n^textCK $ in computability theory, assuming that $n$ can be extended to any natural number greater than $1$? What function would the oracles of such machines compute?
EDIT
Quote $4$ ( source ):
The first two admissible ordinals are àand $omega _1^mathrm CK $ (the least non-recursive ordinal, also called the ChurchâÂÂKleene ordinal). Any regular uncountable cardinal is an admissible ordinal.
By a theorem of Sacks, the countable admissible ordinals are exactly those constructed in a manner similar to the Church-Kleene ordinal, but for Turing machines with oracles.
Can anyone explain how exactly such construction is done? I cannot find any accessible explanation online.
There are relatively similar questions, but they do not address the described problem:
Is there a second Church-Kleene ordinal?- What classification of countable ordinals above $omega _1^mathrm CK $ exists?
logic ordinals turing-machines oracles
add a comment |Â
up vote
1
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I have found the following quotes. Quote $1$ ( source ):
In computability theory, Turing Machines+BB oracles correspond to the same ordinal as ordinary Turing Machines ($omega_1^textCK$). In googology, BB oracles correspond to $ omega_1^textCK times 2 $ to the FGH.
(note that âÂÂBB oraclesâ here denote the oracles that can compute the Busy Beaver function for the lower-order Turing machines).
Quote $2$ ( source ):
With access to the halting oracle, you still cannot compute ordinals greater than $ omega_1^textCK $. The set of computable ordinals is, in fact, still the same. However, given an oracle for $ omega_1^textCK $, we can compute larger ordinals, and in fact the ordinals computable from $ omega_1^textCK $ are exactly the ones below $ omega_2^textCK $.
(in this quote, I donâÂÂt understand what âÂÂan oracle for $omega_1^textCK$â means).
Quote $3$ ( source ):
Adam Goucher admited he was wrong when he first wrote about strength of $Sigma_2(n)$. It is actually $omega_2^CK$, well over $omega_1^CK times 2$.
(note that $Sigma_2(n)$ here denotes the Busy Beaver function for the second-order oracle Turing machines, that is, Turing machines equipped with an oracle that can compute the Busy Beaver function for the first-order Turing machines).
It seems like Quote $3$ contradicts Quote $1$, and the question is: is it possible (if yes, then how?) to construct a model of Turing machines that correspond to $ omega_n^textCK $ in computability theory, assuming that $n$ can be extended to any natural number greater than $1$? What function would the oracles of such machines compute?
EDIT
Quote $4$ ( source ):
The first two admissible ordinals are àand $omega _1^mathrm CK $ (the least non-recursive ordinal, also called the ChurchâÂÂKleene ordinal). Any regular uncountable cardinal is an admissible ordinal.
By a theorem of Sacks, the countable admissible ordinals are exactly those constructed in a manner similar to the Church-Kleene ordinal, but for Turing machines with oracles.
Can anyone explain how exactly such construction is done? I cannot find any accessible explanation online.
There are relatively similar questions, but they do not address the described problem:
Is there a second Church-Kleene ordinal?- What classification of countable ordinals above $omega _1^mathrm CK $ exists?
logic ordinals turing-machines oracles
Just so you know, all the "strength of function in terms of ordinals" claims are almost completely unsubstantiated - there is no formal way in which they are true. For the record, I am in large part a cause for the claim in quote 3, but since then I have learnt better and can assure you $Sigma_2$ in no sensible way reaches $omega_2^CK$.
â Wojowu
Sep 4 at 7:25
Regarding quote 2, "oracle for $omega_1^CK$" is any oracle which encodes a well-order of order type $omega_1^CK$. Results due to Sacks imply that with such an oracle we can compute all ordinals below $omega_2^CK$, and for suitable choice of this oracle we will no larger ordinals will be computable with this oracle.
â Wojowu
Sep 4 at 7:27
Again, we run into the problem of what "[a function] reaches [an ordinal]" is supposed to mean, but for the former, there is a reasonable answer of "doesn't reach $omega_2^CK$", because $omega$-th order halting oracle doesn't let us compute ordinals greater than $omega_1^CK$. For $BB_omega_1^CK$ we reach another issue of how exactly we would define $omega_1^CK$-th order oracle - there is no canonical way to do that (for recursive ordinals, we can show all (computable) choices give essentially the same oracle, but that fails for nonrecursive ordinals)
â Wojowu
Sep 4 at 7:53
@Wojowu: âÂÂ> we run into the problem of what "[a function] reaches [an ordinal]" is supposed to mean <â In this context, I think that this is the Busy Beaver function for Turing machines with an oracle which encodes a well-order of order type $omega_n^textCK$. But I still don't understand how to define these oracles. Even if there is no canonical way to do this, I think that any mathematically reasonable way would be enough.
â lyrically wicked
Sep 4 at 8:29
@Wojowu Can you give a specific reference (or references) for the result you mentioned in the second comment below the question? Also am I right in assuming that $omega_2^CK=omega_1^CK(omega_1^CK)$ is considered as definition of $omega_2^CK$? Here I am assuming the following def. for $omega_1^CK(alpha)$ from an answer in linked thread (in question): "For $alpha$ an ordinal, we write $omega_1^CK(alpha)$ for the least ordinal $beta$ for which there is some copy of $alpha$ (= binary relation on $omega$ with ordertype $alpha$) which does not compute a copy of $beta$."
â SSequence
Sep 6 at 9:23
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up vote
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up vote
1
down vote
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I have found the following quotes. Quote $1$ ( source ):
In computability theory, Turing Machines+BB oracles correspond to the same ordinal as ordinary Turing Machines ($omega_1^textCK$). In googology, BB oracles correspond to $ omega_1^textCK times 2 $ to the FGH.
(note that âÂÂBB oraclesâ here denote the oracles that can compute the Busy Beaver function for the lower-order Turing machines).
Quote $2$ ( source ):
With access to the halting oracle, you still cannot compute ordinals greater than $ omega_1^textCK $. The set of computable ordinals is, in fact, still the same. However, given an oracle for $ omega_1^textCK $, we can compute larger ordinals, and in fact the ordinals computable from $ omega_1^textCK $ are exactly the ones below $ omega_2^textCK $.
(in this quote, I donâÂÂt understand what âÂÂan oracle for $omega_1^textCK$â means).
Quote $3$ ( source ):
Adam Goucher admited he was wrong when he first wrote about strength of $Sigma_2(n)$. It is actually $omega_2^CK$, well over $omega_1^CK times 2$.
(note that $Sigma_2(n)$ here denotes the Busy Beaver function for the second-order oracle Turing machines, that is, Turing machines equipped with an oracle that can compute the Busy Beaver function for the first-order Turing machines).
It seems like Quote $3$ contradicts Quote $1$, and the question is: is it possible (if yes, then how?) to construct a model of Turing machines that correspond to $ omega_n^textCK $ in computability theory, assuming that $n$ can be extended to any natural number greater than $1$? What function would the oracles of such machines compute?
EDIT
Quote $4$ ( source ):
The first two admissible ordinals are àand $omega _1^mathrm CK $ (the least non-recursive ordinal, also called the ChurchâÂÂKleene ordinal). Any regular uncountable cardinal is an admissible ordinal.
By a theorem of Sacks, the countable admissible ordinals are exactly those constructed in a manner similar to the Church-Kleene ordinal, but for Turing machines with oracles.
Can anyone explain how exactly such construction is done? I cannot find any accessible explanation online.
There are relatively similar questions, but they do not address the described problem:
Is there a second Church-Kleene ordinal?- What classification of countable ordinals above $omega _1^mathrm CK $ exists?
logic ordinals turing-machines oracles
I have found the following quotes. Quote $1$ ( source ):
In computability theory, Turing Machines+BB oracles correspond to the same ordinal as ordinary Turing Machines ($omega_1^textCK$). In googology, BB oracles correspond to $ omega_1^textCK times 2 $ to the FGH.
(note that âÂÂBB oraclesâ here denote the oracles that can compute the Busy Beaver function for the lower-order Turing machines).
Quote $2$ ( source ):
With access to the halting oracle, you still cannot compute ordinals greater than $ omega_1^textCK $. The set of computable ordinals is, in fact, still the same. However, given an oracle for $ omega_1^textCK $, we can compute larger ordinals, and in fact the ordinals computable from $ omega_1^textCK $ are exactly the ones below $ omega_2^textCK $.
(in this quote, I donâÂÂt understand what âÂÂan oracle for $omega_1^textCK$â means).
Quote $3$ ( source ):
Adam Goucher admited he was wrong when he first wrote about strength of $Sigma_2(n)$. It is actually $omega_2^CK$, well over $omega_1^CK times 2$.
(note that $Sigma_2(n)$ here denotes the Busy Beaver function for the second-order oracle Turing machines, that is, Turing machines equipped with an oracle that can compute the Busy Beaver function for the first-order Turing machines).
It seems like Quote $3$ contradicts Quote $1$, and the question is: is it possible (if yes, then how?) to construct a model of Turing machines that correspond to $ omega_n^textCK $ in computability theory, assuming that $n$ can be extended to any natural number greater than $1$? What function would the oracles of such machines compute?
EDIT
Quote $4$ ( source ):
The first two admissible ordinals are àand $omega _1^mathrm CK $ (the least non-recursive ordinal, also called the ChurchâÂÂKleene ordinal). Any regular uncountable cardinal is an admissible ordinal.
By a theorem of Sacks, the countable admissible ordinals are exactly those constructed in a manner similar to the Church-Kleene ordinal, but for Turing machines with oracles.
Can anyone explain how exactly such construction is done? I cannot find any accessible explanation online.
There are relatively similar questions, but they do not address the described problem:
Is there a second Church-Kleene ordinal?- What classification of countable ordinals above $omega _1^mathrm CK $ exists?
logic ordinals turing-machines oracles
logic ordinals turing-machines oracles
edited Sep 6 at 8:19
asked Sep 4 at 7:14
lyrically wicked
1557
1557
Just so you know, all the "strength of function in terms of ordinals" claims are almost completely unsubstantiated - there is no formal way in which they are true. For the record, I am in large part a cause for the claim in quote 3, but since then I have learnt better and can assure you $Sigma_2$ in no sensible way reaches $omega_2^CK$.
â Wojowu
Sep 4 at 7:25
Regarding quote 2, "oracle for $omega_1^CK$" is any oracle which encodes a well-order of order type $omega_1^CK$. Results due to Sacks imply that with such an oracle we can compute all ordinals below $omega_2^CK$, and for suitable choice of this oracle we will no larger ordinals will be computable with this oracle.
â Wojowu
Sep 4 at 7:27
Again, we run into the problem of what "[a function] reaches [an ordinal]" is supposed to mean, but for the former, there is a reasonable answer of "doesn't reach $omega_2^CK$", because $omega$-th order halting oracle doesn't let us compute ordinals greater than $omega_1^CK$. For $BB_omega_1^CK$ we reach another issue of how exactly we would define $omega_1^CK$-th order oracle - there is no canonical way to do that (for recursive ordinals, we can show all (computable) choices give essentially the same oracle, but that fails for nonrecursive ordinals)
â Wojowu
Sep 4 at 7:53
@Wojowu: âÂÂ> we run into the problem of what "[a function] reaches [an ordinal]" is supposed to mean <â In this context, I think that this is the Busy Beaver function for Turing machines with an oracle which encodes a well-order of order type $omega_n^textCK$. But I still don't understand how to define these oracles. Even if there is no canonical way to do this, I think that any mathematically reasonable way would be enough.
â lyrically wicked
Sep 4 at 8:29
@Wojowu Can you give a specific reference (or references) for the result you mentioned in the second comment below the question? Also am I right in assuming that $omega_2^CK=omega_1^CK(omega_1^CK)$ is considered as definition of $omega_2^CK$? Here I am assuming the following def. for $omega_1^CK(alpha)$ from an answer in linked thread (in question): "For $alpha$ an ordinal, we write $omega_1^CK(alpha)$ for the least ordinal $beta$ for which there is some copy of $alpha$ (= binary relation on $omega$ with ordertype $alpha$) which does not compute a copy of $beta$."
â SSequence
Sep 6 at 9:23
add a comment |Â
Just so you know, all the "strength of function in terms of ordinals" claims are almost completely unsubstantiated - there is no formal way in which they are true. For the record, I am in large part a cause for the claim in quote 3, but since then I have learnt better and can assure you $Sigma_2$ in no sensible way reaches $omega_2^CK$.
â Wojowu
Sep 4 at 7:25
Regarding quote 2, "oracle for $omega_1^CK$" is any oracle which encodes a well-order of order type $omega_1^CK$. Results due to Sacks imply that with such an oracle we can compute all ordinals below $omega_2^CK$, and for suitable choice of this oracle we will no larger ordinals will be computable with this oracle.
â Wojowu
Sep 4 at 7:27
Again, we run into the problem of what "[a function] reaches [an ordinal]" is supposed to mean, but for the former, there is a reasonable answer of "doesn't reach $omega_2^CK$", because $omega$-th order halting oracle doesn't let us compute ordinals greater than $omega_1^CK$. For $BB_omega_1^CK$ we reach another issue of how exactly we would define $omega_1^CK$-th order oracle - there is no canonical way to do that (for recursive ordinals, we can show all (computable) choices give essentially the same oracle, but that fails for nonrecursive ordinals)
â Wojowu
Sep 4 at 7:53
@Wojowu: âÂÂ> we run into the problem of what "[a function] reaches [an ordinal]" is supposed to mean <â In this context, I think that this is the Busy Beaver function for Turing machines with an oracle which encodes a well-order of order type $omega_n^textCK$. But I still don't understand how to define these oracles. Even if there is no canonical way to do this, I think that any mathematically reasonable way would be enough.
â lyrically wicked
Sep 4 at 8:29
@Wojowu Can you give a specific reference (or references) for the result you mentioned in the second comment below the question? Also am I right in assuming that $omega_2^CK=omega_1^CK(omega_1^CK)$ is considered as definition of $omega_2^CK$? Here I am assuming the following def. for $omega_1^CK(alpha)$ from an answer in linked thread (in question): "For $alpha$ an ordinal, we write $omega_1^CK(alpha)$ for the least ordinal $beta$ for which there is some copy of $alpha$ (= binary relation on $omega$ with ordertype $alpha$) which does not compute a copy of $beta$."
â SSequence
Sep 6 at 9:23
Just so you know, all the "strength of function in terms of ordinals" claims are almost completely unsubstantiated - there is no formal way in which they are true. For the record, I am in large part a cause for the claim in quote 3, but since then I have learnt better and can assure you $Sigma_2$ in no sensible way reaches $omega_2^CK$.
â Wojowu
Sep 4 at 7:25
Just so you know, all the "strength of function in terms of ordinals" claims are almost completely unsubstantiated - there is no formal way in which they are true. For the record, I am in large part a cause for the claim in quote 3, but since then I have learnt better and can assure you $Sigma_2$ in no sensible way reaches $omega_2^CK$.
â Wojowu
Sep 4 at 7:25
Regarding quote 2, "oracle for $omega_1^CK$" is any oracle which encodes a well-order of order type $omega_1^CK$. Results due to Sacks imply that with such an oracle we can compute all ordinals below $omega_2^CK$, and for suitable choice of this oracle we will no larger ordinals will be computable with this oracle.
â Wojowu
Sep 4 at 7:27
Regarding quote 2, "oracle for $omega_1^CK$" is any oracle which encodes a well-order of order type $omega_1^CK$. Results due to Sacks imply that with such an oracle we can compute all ordinals below $omega_2^CK$, and for suitable choice of this oracle we will no larger ordinals will be computable with this oracle.
â Wojowu
Sep 4 at 7:27
Again, we run into the problem of what "[a function] reaches [an ordinal]" is supposed to mean, but for the former, there is a reasonable answer of "doesn't reach $omega_2^CK$", because $omega$-th order halting oracle doesn't let us compute ordinals greater than $omega_1^CK$. For $BB_omega_1^CK$ we reach another issue of how exactly we would define $omega_1^CK$-th order oracle - there is no canonical way to do that (for recursive ordinals, we can show all (computable) choices give essentially the same oracle, but that fails for nonrecursive ordinals)
â Wojowu
Sep 4 at 7:53
Again, we run into the problem of what "[a function] reaches [an ordinal]" is supposed to mean, but for the former, there is a reasonable answer of "doesn't reach $omega_2^CK$", because $omega$-th order halting oracle doesn't let us compute ordinals greater than $omega_1^CK$. For $BB_omega_1^CK$ we reach another issue of how exactly we would define $omega_1^CK$-th order oracle - there is no canonical way to do that (for recursive ordinals, we can show all (computable) choices give essentially the same oracle, but that fails for nonrecursive ordinals)
â Wojowu
Sep 4 at 7:53
@Wojowu: âÂÂ> we run into the problem of what "[a function] reaches [an ordinal]" is supposed to mean <â In this context, I think that this is the Busy Beaver function for Turing machines with an oracle which encodes a well-order of order type $omega_n^textCK$. But I still don't understand how to define these oracles. Even if there is no canonical way to do this, I think that any mathematically reasonable way would be enough.
â lyrically wicked
Sep 4 at 8:29
@Wojowu: âÂÂ> we run into the problem of what "[a function] reaches [an ordinal]" is supposed to mean <â In this context, I think that this is the Busy Beaver function for Turing machines with an oracle which encodes a well-order of order type $omega_n^textCK$. But I still don't understand how to define these oracles. Even if there is no canonical way to do this, I think that any mathematically reasonable way would be enough.
â lyrically wicked
Sep 4 at 8:29
@Wojowu Can you give a specific reference (or references) for the result you mentioned in the second comment below the question? Also am I right in assuming that $omega_2^CK=omega_1^CK(omega_1^CK)$ is considered as definition of $omega_2^CK$? Here I am assuming the following def. for $omega_1^CK(alpha)$ from an answer in linked thread (in question): "For $alpha$ an ordinal, we write $omega_1^CK(alpha)$ for the least ordinal $beta$ for which there is some copy of $alpha$ (= binary relation on $omega$ with ordertype $alpha$) which does not compute a copy of $beta$."
â SSequence
Sep 6 at 9:23
@Wojowu Can you give a specific reference (or references) for the result you mentioned in the second comment below the question? Also am I right in assuming that $omega_2^CK=omega_1^CK(omega_1^CK)$ is considered as definition of $omega_2^CK$? Here I am assuming the following def. for $omega_1^CK(alpha)$ from an answer in linked thread (in question): "For $alpha$ an ordinal, we write $omega_1^CK(alpha)$ for the least ordinal $beta$ for which there is some copy of $alpha$ (= binary relation on $omega$ with ordertype $alpha$) which does not compute a copy of $beta$."
â SSequence
Sep 6 at 9:23
add a comment |Â
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This really should be a comment, but probably too long for it. Regarding [Quote2], I think it follows from a general and rather well-known result. Let $A subseteq mathbbN$ be any set such that $Ain HA$ (HA=hyperarithmethic). Then you can't generate $omega_CK$ with a program that has access to the set $A$. If you denote $H$ as halt-set then because $H in HYP$, one gets the result mentioned in the first half of [Quote2].
I do not have any familiarity with the result personally though (it was mentioned in the first question I asked an year ago).
Also regarding the second half of [Quote2], since you mentioned you don't understand what an "oracle for $omega_CK$ means", here are few comments that might help. I am not good with formal stuff so I hope there isn't an issue in the wording. But formally I think it means having an access to function(or an equivalent set basically) which represents the well-order relation ...... corresponding to the well-ordering of $omega_CK$ in terms of $mathbbN$.
For example, if you defined a function $LE:mathbbN^2 rightarrow mathbbN$ so that:
$LE(x,y)=1$ if and only if $x le y$
then $LE$ represent the well-order relation ..... corresponding to well-ordering of $mathbbN$ with order-type $omega$.
Another example is:
$LE(x,y)=1$ if $x=y$
If $x ne y$ then:
$LE(x,y)=$ truth value of $x<y$ ---- if $x$ is even and $y$ is even
$LE(x,y)=1$ ---- if $x$ is even and $y$ is odd
$LE(x,y)=0$ ---- if $x$ is odd and $y$ is even
$LE(x,y)=$ truth value of $x<y$ ---- if $x$ is odd and $y$ is odd
If you look at it carefully enough, $LE$ here represents the well-order relation corresponding to well-ordering of $mathbbN$ with order-type $omega cdot 2$.
Similarly you can also describe a well-ordering of $mathbbN$ with order-type $omega^2$ using a pairing function (a function describing a 1-1 correspondence between $mathbbN^2$ and $mathbbN$).
Now coming back to the comment in second half of [Quote2]. If you denote $alpha=omega_CK=omega^CK_1$ and denote, for example, $beta$ as the smallest ordinal that can't be generated using a program that has access to the well-order relation describing the well-ordering of $omega_CK$ in terms of $mathbbN$. Then I hope you can easily see why the following should all be true (via a positive demonstration of a program that does it):
$beta > alpha cdot 2$
$beta > alpha ^ 2$
$beta > alpha ^ alpha$
$beta > gamma=supalpha, alpha^alpha, alpha^alpha^alpha,..... $
this goes on...
But there is one more subtlety to it in the sense that the choice of well-order relation for $omega_CK$ could change $beta$. See the second comment by @Wojowu below the question. I am guessing that possibly the phrase "and for suitable choice of this oracle" is meant to reflect this.
â SSequence
Sep 5 at 9:43
Bumped to correct somewhat misleading phrase "well-ordering of $omega^2$ (in terms of $mathbbN$)"
â SSequence
Sep 8 at 16:11
add a comment |Â
1 Answer
1
active
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1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
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0
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This really should be a comment, but probably too long for it. Regarding [Quote2], I think it follows from a general and rather well-known result. Let $A subseteq mathbbN$ be any set such that $Ain HA$ (HA=hyperarithmethic). Then you can't generate $omega_CK$ with a program that has access to the set $A$. If you denote $H$ as halt-set then because $H in HYP$, one gets the result mentioned in the first half of [Quote2].
I do not have any familiarity with the result personally though (it was mentioned in the first question I asked an year ago).
Also regarding the second half of [Quote2], since you mentioned you don't understand what an "oracle for $omega_CK$ means", here are few comments that might help. I am not good with formal stuff so I hope there isn't an issue in the wording. But formally I think it means having an access to function(or an equivalent set basically) which represents the well-order relation ...... corresponding to the well-ordering of $omega_CK$ in terms of $mathbbN$.
For example, if you defined a function $LE:mathbbN^2 rightarrow mathbbN$ so that:
$LE(x,y)=1$ if and only if $x le y$
then $LE$ represent the well-order relation ..... corresponding to well-ordering of $mathbbN$ with order-type $omega$.
Another example is:
$LE(x,y)=1$ if $x=y$
If $x ne y$ then:
$LE(x,y)=$ truth value of $x<y$ ---- if $x$ is even and $y$ is even
$LE(x,y)=1$ ---- if $x$ is even and $y$ is odd
$LE(x,y)=0$ ---- if $x$ is odd and $y$ is even
$LE(x,y)=$ truth value of $x<y$ ---- if $x$ is odd and $y$ is odd
If you look at it carefully enough, $LE$ here represents the well-order relation corresponding to well-ordering of $mathbbN$ with order-type $omega cdot 2$.
Similarly you can also describe a well-ordering of $mathbbN$ with order-type $omega^2$ using a pairing function (a function describing a 1-1 correspondence between $mathbbN^2$ and $mathbbN$).
Now coming back to the comment in second half of [Quote2]. If you denote $alpha=omega_CK=omega^CK_1$ and denote, for example, $beta$ as the smallest ordinal that can't be generated using a program that has access to the well-order relation describing the well-ordering of $omega_CK$ in terms of $mathbbN$. Then I hope you can easily see why the following should all be true (via a positive demonstration of a program that does it):
$beta > alpha cdot 2$
$beta > alpha ^ 2$
$beta > alpha ^ alpha$
$beta > gamma=supalpha, alpha^alpha, alpha^alpha^alpha,..... $
this goes on...
But there is one more subtlety to it in the sense that the choice of well-order relation for $omega_CK$ could change $beta$. See the second comment by @Wojowu below the question. I am guessing that possibly the phrase "and for suitable choice of this oracle" is meant to reflect this.
â SSequence
Sep 5 at 9:43
Bumped to correct somewhat misleading phrase "well-ordering of $omega^2$ (in terms of $mathbbN$)"
â SSequence
Sep 8 at 16:11
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
This really should be a comment, but probably too long for it. Regarding [Quote2], I think it follows from a general and rather well-known result. Let $A subseteq mathbbN$ be any set such that $Ain HA$ (HA=hyperarithmethic). Then you can't generate $omega_CK$ with a program that has access to the set $A$. If you denote $H$ as halt-set then because $H in HYP$, one gets the result mentioned in the first half of [Quote2].
I do not have any familiarity with the result personally though (it was mentioned in the first question I asked an year ago).
Also regarding the second half of [Quote2], since you mentioned you don't understand what an "oracle for $omega_CK$ means", here are few comments that might help. I am not good with formal stuff so I hope there isn't an issue in the wording. But formally I think it means having an access to function(or an equivalent set basically) which represents the well-order relation ...... corresponding to the well-ordering of $omega_CK$ in terms of $mathbbN$.
For example, if you defined a function $LE:mathbbN^2 rightarrow mathbbN$ so that:
$LE(x,y)=1$ if and only if $x le y$
then $LE$ represent the well-order relation ..... corresponding to well-ordering of $mathbbN$ with order-type $omega$.
Another example is:
$LE(x,y)=1$ if $x=y$
If $x ne y$ then:
$LE(x,y)=$ truth value of $x<y$ ---- if $x$ is even and $y$ is even
$LE(x,y)=1$ ---- if $x$ is even and $y$ is odd
$LE(x,y)=0$ ---- if $x$ is odd and $y$ is even
$LE(x,y)=$ truth value of $x<y$ ---- if $x$ is odd and $y$ is odd
If you look at it carefully enough, $LE$ here represents the well-order relation corresponding to well-ordering of $mathbbN$ with order-type $omega cdot 2$.
Similarly you can also describe a well-ordering of $mathbbN$ with order-type $omega^2$ using a pairing function (a function describing a 1-1 correspondence between $mathbbN^2$ and $mathbbN$).
Now coming back to the comment in second half of [Quote2]. If you denote $alpha=omega_CK=omega^CK_1$ and denote, for example, $beta$ as the smallest ordinal that can't be generated using a program that has access to the well-order relation describing the well-ordering of $omega_CK$ in terms of $mathbbN$. Then I hope you can easily see why the following should all be true (via a positive demonstration of a program that does it):
$beta > alpha cdot 2$
$beta > alpha ^ 2$
$beta > alpha ^ alpha$
$beta > gamma=supalpha, alpha^alpha, alpha^alpha^alpha,..... $
this goes on...
But there is one more subtlety to it in the sense that the choice of well-order relation for $omega_CK$ could change $beta$. See the second comment by @Wojowu below the question. I am guessing that possibly the phrase "and for suitable choice of this oracle" is meant to reflect this.
â SSequence
Sep 5 at 9:43
Bumped to correct somewhat misleading phrase "well-ordering of $omega^2$ (in terms of $mathbbN$)"
â SSequence
Sep 8 at 16:11
add a comment |Â
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
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This really should be a comment, but probably too long for it. Regarding [Quote2], I think it follows from a general and rather well-known result. Let $A subseteq mathbbN$ be any set such that $Ain HA$ (HA=hyperarithmethic). Then you can't generate $omega_CK$ with a program that has access to the set $A$. If you denote $H$ as halt-set then because $H in HYP$, one gets the result mentioned in the first half of [Quote2].
I do not have any familiarity with the result personally though (it was mentioned in the first question I asked an year ago).
Also regarding the second half of [Quote2], since you mentioned you don't understand what an "oracle for $omega_CK$ means", here are few comments that might help. I am not good with formal stuff so I hope there isn't an issue in the wording. But formally I think it means having an access to function(or an equivalent set basically) which represents the well-order relation ...... corresponding to the well-ordering of $omega_CK$ in terms of $mathbbN$.
For example, if you defined a function $LE:mathbbN^2 rightarrow mathbbN$ so that:
$LE(x,y)=1$ if and only if $x le y$
then $LE$ represent the well-order relation ..... corresponding to well-ordering of $mathbbN$ with order-type $omega$.
Another example is:
$LE(x,y)=1$ if $x=y$
If $x ne y$ then:
$LE(x,y)=$ truth value of $x<y$ ---- if $x$ is even and $y$ is even
$LE(x,y)=1$ ---- if $x$ is even and $y$ is odd
$LE(x,y)=0$ ---- if $x$ is odd and $y$ is even
$LE(x,y)=$ truth value of $x<y$ ---- if $x$ is odd and $y$ is odd
If you look at it carefully enough, $LE$ here represents the well-order relation corresponding to well-ordering of $mathbbN$ with order-type $omega cdot 2$.
Similarly you can also describe a well-ordering of $mathbbN$ with order-type $omega^2$ using a pairing function (a function describing a 1-1 correspondence between $mathbbN^2$ and $mathbbN$).
Now coming back to the comment in second half of [Quote2]. If you denote $alpha=omega_CK=omega^CK_1$ and denote, for example, $beta$ as the smallest ordinal that can't be generated using a program that has access to the well-order relation describing the well-ordering of $omega_CK$ in terms of $mathbbN$. Then I hope you can easily see why the following should all be true (via a positive demonstration of a program that does it):
$beta > alpha cdot 2$
$beta > alpha ^ 2$
$beta > alpha ^ alpha$
$beta > gamma=supalpha, alpha^alpha, alpha^alpha^alpha,..... $
this goes on...
This really should be a comment, but probably too long for it. Regarding [Quote2], I think it follows from a general and rather well-known result. Let $A subseteq mathbbN$ be any set such that $Ain HA$ (HA=hyperarithmethic). Then you can't generate $omega_CK$ with a program that has access to the set $A$. If you denote $H$ as halt-set then because $H in HYP$, one gets the result mentioned in the first half of [Quote2].
I do not have any familiarity with the result personally though (it was mentioned in the first question I asked an year ago).
Also regarding the second half of [Quote2], since you mentioned you don't understand what an "oracle for $omega_CK$ means", here are few comments that might help. I am not good with formal stuff so I hope there isn't an issue in the wording. But formally I think it means having an access to function(or an equivalent set basically) which represents the well-order relation ...... corresponding to the well-ordering of $omega_CK$ in terms of $mathbbN$.
For example, if you defined a function $LE:mathbbN^2 rightarrow mathbbN$ so that:
$LE(x,y)=1$ if and only if $x le y$
then $LE$ represent the well-order relation ..... corresponding to well-ordering of $mathbbN$ with order-type $omega$.
Another example is:
$LE(x,y)=1$ if $x=y$
If $x ne y$ then:
$LE(x,y)=$ truth value of $x<y$ ---- if $x$ is even and $y$ is even
$LE(x,y)=1$ ---- if $x$ is even and $y$ is odd
$LE(x,y)=0$ ---- if $x$ is odd and $y$ is even
$LE(x,y)=$ truth value of $x<y$ ---- if $x$ is odd and $y$ is odd
If you look at it carefully enough, $LE$ here represents the well-order relation corresponding to well-ordering of $mathbbN$ with order-type $omega cdot 2$.
Similarly you can also describe a well-ordering of $mathbbN$ with order-type $omega^2$ using a pairing function (a function describing a 1-1 correspondence between $mathbbN^2$ and $mathbbN$).
Now coming back to the comment in second half of [Quote2]. If you denote $alpha=omega_CK=omega^CK_1$ and denote, for example, $beta$ as the smallest ordinal that can't be generated using a program that has access to the well-order relation describing the well-ordering of $omega_CK$ in terms of $mathbbN$. Then I hope you can easily see why the following should all be true (via a positive demonstration of a program that does it):
$beta > alpha cdot 2$
$beta > alpha ^ 2$
$beta > alpha ^ alpha$
$beta > gamma=supalpha, alpha^alpha, alpha^alpha^alpha,..... $
this goes on...
edited Sep 8 at 16:11
answered Sep 5 at 9:15
SSequence
30018
30018
But there is one more subtlety to it in the sense that the choice of well-order relation for $omega_CK$ could change $beta$. See the second comment by @Wojowu below the question. I am guessing that possibly the phrase "and for suitable choice of this oracle" is meant to reflect this.
â SSequence
Sep 5 at 9:43
Bumped to correct somewhat misleading phrase "well-ordering of $omega^2$ (in terms of $mathbbN$)"
â SSequence
Sep 8 at 16:11
add a comment |Â
But there is one more subtlety to it in the sense that the choice of well-order relation for $omega_CK$ could change $beta$. See the second comment by @Wojowu below the question. I am guessing that possibly the phrase "and for suitable choice of this oracle" is meant to reflect this.
â SSequence
Sep 5 at 9:43
Bumped to correct somewhat misleading phrase "well-ordering of $omega^2$ (in terms of $mathbbN$)"
â SSequence
Sep 8 at 16:11
But there is one more subtlety to it in the sense that the choice of well-order relation for $omega_CK$ could change $beta$. See the second comment by @Wojowu below the question. I am guessing that possibly the phrase "and for suitable choice of this oracle" is meant to reflect this.
â SSequence
Sep 5 at 9:43
But there is one more subtlety to it in the sense that the choice of well-order relation for $omega_CK$ could change $beta$. See the second comment by @Wojowu below the question. I am guessing that possibly the phrase "and for suitable choice of this oracle" is meant to reflect this.
â SSequence
Sep 5 at 9:43
Bumped to correct somewhat misleading phrase "well-ordering of $omega^2$ (in terms of $mathbbN$)"
â SSequence
Sep 8 at 16:11
Bumped to correct somewhat misleading phrase "well-ordering of $omega^2$ (in terms of $mathbbN$)"
â SSequence
Sep 8 at 16:11
add a comment |Â
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Just so you know, all the "strength of function in terms of ordinals" claims are almost completely unsubstantiated - there is no formal way in which they are true. For the record, I am in large part a cause for the claim in quote 3, but since then I have learnt better and can assure you $Sigma_2$ in no sensible way reaches $omega_2^CK$.
â Wojowu
Sep 4 at 7:25
Regarding quote 2, "oracle for $omega_1^CK$" is any oracle which encodes a well-order of order type $omega_1^CK$. Results due to Sacks imply that with such an oracle we can compute all ordinals below $omega_2^CK$, and for suitable choice of this oracle we will no larger ordinals will be computable with this oracle.
â Wojowu
Sep 4 at 7:27
Again, we run into the problem of what "[a function] reaches [an ordinal]" is supposed to mean, but for the former, there is a reasonable answer of "doesn't reach $omega_2^CK$", because $omega$-th order halting oracle doesn't let us compute ordinals greater than $omega_1^CK$. For $BB_omega_1^CK$ we reach another issue of how exactly we would define $omega_1^CK$-th order oracle - there is no canonical way to do that (for recursive ordinals, we can show all (computable) choices give essentially the same oracle, but that fails for nonrecursive ordinals)
â Wojowu
Sep 4 at 7:53
@Wojowu: âÂÂ> we run into the problem of what "[a function] reaches [an ordinal]" is supposed to mean <â In this context, I think that this is the Busy Beaver function for Turing machines with an oracle which encodes a well-order of order type $omega_n^textCK$. But I still don't understand how to define these oracles. Even if there is no canonical way to do this, I think that any mathematically reasonable way would be enough.
â lyrically wicked
Sep 4 at 8:29
@Wojowu Can you give a specific reference (or references) for the result you mentioned in the second comment below the question? Also am I right in assuming that $omega_2^CK=omega_1^CK(omega_1^CK)$ is considered as definition of $omega_2^CK$? Here I am assuming the following def. for $omega_1^CK(alpha)$ from an answer in linked thread (in question): "For $alpha$ an ordinal, we write $omega_1^CK(alpha)$ for the least ordinal $beta$ for which there is some copy of $alpha$ (= binary relation on $omega$ with ordertype $alpha$) which does not compute a copy of $beta$."
â SSequence
Sep 6 at 9:23