Why is this not a choice function from subsets of $Bbb R$?

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A definition of the Axiom of Choice mentions that:




[...] no choice function is known for the collection of all
non-empty subsets of the real numbers
--Wikipedia




However, for all non-empty subsets $X$ of the real numbers I can construct a function $f$ which chooses the element closest to $0$, and if there are two such elements, chooses the positive one.



Below is my attempt at stating this rigorously:



$ forall X subset mathbbR | X neq emptyset: f(X)=begincases
x:min (|X|),& textif (max(x):x in X, x<0) neq (min(x):x in X, x>0)\
min(|X|),& textotherwise
endcases$



This certainly holds for subsets of reals which



  1. are positive only $longrightarrow$ select the smallest

  2. are negative only $longrightarrow$ select the largest

  3. contain $0$ $longrightarrow$ select $0$

  4. are positive and negative $longrightarrow$ select the element nearest to $0$

  5. contain a positive and a negative element both closest to $0$ $longrightarrow$ select the positive one

Is this a choice function for the collection of all non-empty subsets of the real numbers? And if it's not a breakthrough, what am I missing?










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  • 4




    There is no such thing as "the element closest to zero" in, say, the set $,1,.1,.01,.001,.0001,dots,$.
    – Gerry Myerson
    Sep 4 at 9:12










  • How about the number $0.dot01$? And if $0.dot9 = 1$, then surely the smallest element of the above sequence equals $0$
    – MrMartin
    Sep 5 at 7:53











  • Sorry, MrM, not even close. Before you can make a breakthrough, you have to learn some mathematics.
    – Gerry Myerson
    Sep 5 at 13:25














up vote
1
down vote

favorite












A definition of the Axiom of Choice mentions that:




[...] no choice function is known for the collection of all
non-empty subsets of the real numbers
--Wikipedia




However, for all non-empty subsets $X$ of the real numbers I can construct a function $f$ which chooses the element closest to $0$, and if there are two such elements, chooses the positive one.



Below is my attempt at stating this rigorously:



$ forall X subset mathbbR | X neq emptyset: f(X)=begincases
x:min (|X|),& textif (max(x):x in X, x<0) neq (min(x):x in X, x>0)\
min(|X|),& textotherwise
endcases$



This certainly holds for subsets of reals which



  1. are positive only $longrightarrow$ select the smallest

  2. are negative only $longrightarrow$ select the largest

  3. contain $0$ $longrightarrow$ select $0$

  4. are positive and negative $longrightarrow$ select the element nearest to $0$

  5. contain a positive and a negative element both closest to $0$ $longrightarrow$ select the positive one

Is this a choice function for the collection of all non-empty subsets of the real numbers? And if it's not a breakthrough, what am I missing?










share|cite|improve this question



















  • 4




    There is no such thing as "the element closest to zero" in, say, the set $,1,.1,.01,.001,.0001,dots,$.
    – Gerry Myerson
    Sep 4 at 9:12










  • How about the number $0.dot01$? And if $0.dot9 = 1$, then surely the smallest element of the above sequence equals $0$
    – MrMartin
    Sep 5 at 7:53











  • Sorry, MrM, not even close. Before you can make a breakthrough, you have to learn some mathematics.
    – Gerry Myerson
    Sep 5 at 13:25












up vote
1
down vote

favorite









up vote
1
down vote

favorite











A definition of the Axiom of Choice mentions that:




[...] no choice function is known for the collection of all
non-empty subsets of the real numbers
--Wikipedia




However, for all non-empty subsets $X$ of the real numbers I can construct a function $f$ which chooses the element closest to $0$, and if there are two such elements, chooses the positive one.



Below is my attempt at stating this rigorously:



$ forall X subset mathbbR | X neq emptyset: f(X)=begincases
x:min (|X|),& textif (max(x):x in X, x<0) neq (min(x):x in X, x>0)\
min(|X|),& textotherwise
endcases$



This certainly holds for subsets of reals which



  1. are positive only $longrightarrow$ select the smallest

  2. are negative only $longrightarrow$ select the largest

  3. contain $0$ $longrightarrow$ select $0$

  4. are positive and negative $longrightarrow$ select the element nearest to $0$

  5. contain a positive and a negative element both closest to $0$ $longrightarrow$ select the positive one

Is this a choice function for the collection of all non-empty subsets of the real numbers? And if it's not a breakthrough, what am I missing?










share|cite|improve this question















A definition of the Axiom of Choice mentions that:




[...] no choice function is known for the collection of all
non-empty subsets of the real numbers
--Wikipedia




However, for all non-empty subsets $X$ of the real numbers I can construct a function $f$ which chooses the element closest to $0$, and if there are two such elements, chooses the positive one.



Below is my attempt at stating this rigorously:



$ forall X subset mathbbR | X neq emptyset: f(X)=begincases
x:min (|X|),& textif (max(x):x in X, x<0) neq (min(x):x in X, x>0)\
min(|X|),& textotherwise
endcases$



This certainly holds for subsets of reals which



  1. are positive only $longrightarrow$ select the smallest

  2. are negative only $longrightarrow$ select the largest

  3. contain $0$ $longrightarrow$ select $0$

  4. are positive and negative $longrightarrow$ select the element nearest to $0$

  5. contain a positive and a negative element both closest to $0$ $longrightarrow$ select the positive one

Is this a choice function for the collection of all non-empty subsets of the real numbers? And if it's not a breakthrough, what am I missing?







elementary-set-theory real-numbers axiom-of-choice






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edited Sep 4 at 9:34









Asaf Karagila♦

294k32410738




294k32410738










asked Sep 4 at 9:10









MrMartin

637




637







  • 4




    There is no such thing as "the element closest to zero" in, say, the set $,1,.1,.01,.001,.0001,dots,$.
    – Gerry Myerson
    Sep 4 at 9:12










  • How about the number $0.dot01$? And if $0.dot9 = 1$, then surely the smallest element of the above sequence equals $0$
    – MrMartin
    Sep 5 at 7:53











  • Sorry, MrM, not even close. Before you can make a breakthrough, you have to learn some mathematics.
    – Gerry Myerson
    Sep 5 at 13:25












  • 4




    There is no such thing as "the element closest to zero" in, say, the set $,1,.1,.01,.001,.0001,dots,$.
    – Gerry Myerson
    Sep 4 at 9:12










  • How about the number $0.dot01$? And if $0.dot9 = 1$, then surely the smallest element of the above sequence equals $0$
    – MrMartin
    Sep 5 at 7:53











  • Sorry, MrM, not even close. Before you can make a breakthrough, you have to learn some mathematics.
    – Gerry Myerson
    Sep 5 at 13:25







4




4




There is no such thing as "the element closest to zero" in, say, the set $,1,.1,.01,.001,.0001,dots,$.
– Gerry Myerson
Sep 4 at 9:12




There is no such thing as "the element closest to zero" in, say, the set $,1,.1,.01,.001,.0001,dots,$.
– Gerry Myerson
Sep 4 at 9:12












How about the number $0.dot01$? And if $0.dot9 = 1$, then surely the smallest element of the above sequence equals $0$
– MrMartin
Sep 5 at 7:53





How about the number $0.dot01$? And if $0.dot9 = 1$, then surely the smallest element of the above sequence equals $0$
– MrMartin
Sep 5 at 7:53













Sorry, MrM, not even close. Before you can make a breakthrough, you have to learn some mathematics.
– Gerry Myerson
Sep 5 at 13:25




Sorry, MrM, not even close. Before you can make a breakthrough, you have to learn some mathematics.
– Gerry Myerson
Sep 5 at 13:25










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
3
down vote



accepted










No, it is not a choice function, because it is not defined for all non-empty subsets of $mathbb R$. For instance, $fbigl((1,2]bigr)$ is not defined.






share|cite|improve this answer





























    up vote
    3
    down vote













    There are two possible reasons why you're making this mistake:



    1. You are only thinking about finite subsets of the reals. In that case, yes, you can uniformly define a choice function from all non-empty finite subsets of the real numbers. Take the closest to $0$, or the minimum, that works equally well.



    2. You are really thinking about the integers, rather than the real numbers. Because if I asked you to choose a number, you're probably going to say $1$ or $5$ or $42$ if you're being clever. But you're unlikely to say Chaitin's constant, or $varphi$. Even if you say something like $pi,e,sqrt2$ or $frac12$, those are only a few specific constants in mind. The rest are integers.



      So you're not thinking about the real numbers as a dense linear order. You're thinking about them as $Bbb Z$ + a few more useful numbers. And of course that in that case, taking the smallest positive or the largest negative works.



    But as pointed by others, this is not going to work in general. In fact, even for $Bbb Q$ this is not going to work, because there is no smallest positive rational number and there is no largest negative rational numbers. Simply dividing by two will work.



    However, unlikely with $Bbb R$, we can in fact define a choice function on non-empty sets of $Bbb Q$. Consider each rational numbers as $frac pq$ where $pinBbb Z$ and $qinBbb Nsetminus0$ and $q$ has the smallest possible value. Then simply choose the one with the smallest $q$ that has $p$ closest to $0$.



    But why wouldn't that work for $Bbb R$? Well, because $Bbb R$ is much larger than $Bbb Q$ in terms of cardinality. You cannot represent it as a field of fractions. It is not countable, and you cannot jump through various hoops to give an explicit choice functions.



    It's not just that. We know for a fact that there are models of set theory without the axiom of choice where there is no choice function. It's not even about being able to define a choice function or not (because in some universes of set theory, there is in fact a definable choice function), it's purely about existence. So whatever definition you have, it is either not going to provably choose from all sets of reals, or it is not provably a choice function. In the case you suggest here, it is in fact provably not choosing from all sets of reals.






    share|cite|improve this answer




















    • Thank you for the extended explanation, the function I suggested definitely won't work. But now I'm thinking of other functions that could, for instance, an infinite recursive program. Has it been proven that a choice function for $Bbb R$ cannot exist?
      – MrMartin
      Sep 5 at 8:46







    • 1




      What does it "proven" from what axioms? The axiom of choice proves that such a choice function exists. Additional set theoretic axioms can even let you define one explicitly (to some extent). But if you want the standard axioms without choice, namely ZF, then yes, it is proven that it is consistent that no such choice function exists. Therefore you cannot define it explicitly. Even worse, though: even allowing choice, it is possible that there are no choice functions which are definable, or even "reasonable definable" if you allow parameters in the definition.
      – Asaf Karagila♦
      Sep 5 at 8:52










    • This is essentially the content of the last paragraph of my answer, by the way.
      – Asaf Karagila♦
      Sep 5 at 8:53

















    up vote
    2
    down vote













    Consider the set $mathbb R^+ = xinmathbb R: x>0$. This is clearly a non-empty subset of $mathbb R$, and it consists only of positive numbers (indeed, it consists of all of them).



    So, let's try to apply your rule:




    are positive only ⟶ select the smallest




    OK, so what is the smallest element of $mathbb R^+$? Well, let's assume we've found it; let's call it $s$ (for “smallest”). But then, what about $s/2$? Clearly, $s/2$ is also positive, so it's also in $mathbb R^+$. Moreover, as can be easily checked, $s/2<s$. But that means that we have found an element in $mathbb R^+$ smaller than the smallest element in $mathbb R^+$. Obviously that cannot exist.



    But since this construction works for any element of $mathbb R^+$, it follows that $mathbb R^+$ has no smallest element. And thus your supposed choice function doesn't work.






    share|cite|improve this answer




















    • Sounds like Zeno's paradox. So you're saying that dividing by two ad infinitum does not reach $0$. But $lim limits_x to infty frac12^x = 0$, doesn't it?
      – MrMartin
      Sep 5 at 8:07







    • 1




      @MrMartin: But $0notinmathbb R^+$, therefore a valid choice function cannot give $0$ for $mathbb R^+$. All bounded sets of real numbers have an infimum (the real numbers are complete by construction), but not all bounded sets have a minimum (i.e. an infimum that is contained in the set). A choice function has to give an element of the set, not just an element related to the set (such as a member of its closure).
      – celtschk
      Sep 5 at 8:25










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    3 Answers
    3






    active

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    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes








    up vote
    3
    down vote



    accepted










    No, it is not a choice function, because it is not defined for all non-empty subsets of $mathbb R$. For instance, $fbigl((1,2]bigr)$ is not defined.






    share|cite|improve this answer


























      up vote
      3
      down vote



      accepted










      No, it is not a choice function, because it is not defined for all non-empty subsets of $mathbb R$. For instance, $fbigl((1,2]bigr)$ is not defined.






      share|cite|improve this answer
























        up vote
        3
        down vote



        accepted







        up vote
        3
        down vote



        accepted






        No, it is not a choice function, because it is not defined for all non-empty subsets of $mathbb R$. For instance, $fbigl((1,2]bigr)$ is not defined.






        share|cite|improve this answer














        No, it is not a choice function, because it is not defined for all non-empty subsets of $mathbb R$. For instance, $fbigl((1,2]bigr)$ is not defined.







        share|cite|improve this answer














        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer








        edited Sep 4 at 9:19

























        answered Sep 4 at 9:13









        José Carlos Santos

        122k16101186




        122k16101186




















            up vote
            3
            down vote













            There are two possible reasons why you're making this mistake:



            1. You are only thinking about finite subsets of the reals. In that case, yes, you can uniformly define a choice function from all non-empty finite subsets of the real numbers. Take the closest to $0$, or the minimum, that works equally well.



            2. You are really thinking about the integers, rather than the real numbers. Because if I asked you to choose a number, you're probably going to say $1$ or $5$ or $42$ if you're being clever. But you're unlikely to say Chaitin's constant, or $varphi$. Even if you say something like $pi,e,sqrt2$ or $frac12$, those are only a few specific constants in mind. The rest are integers.



              So you're not thinking about the real numbers as a dense linear order. You're thinking about them as $Bbb Z$ + a few more useful numbers. And of course that in that case, taking the smallest positive or the largest negative works.



            But as pointed by others, this is not going to work in general. In fact, even for $Bbb Q$ this is not going to work, because there is no smallest positive rational number and there is no largest negative rational numbers. Simply dividing by two will work.



            However, unlikely with $Bbb R$, we can in fact define a choice function on non-empty sets of $Bbb Q$. Consider each rational numbers as $frac pq$ where $pinBbb Z$ and $qinBbb Nsetminus0$ and $q$ has the smallest possible value. Then simply choose the one with the smallest $q$ that has $p$ closest to $0$.



            But why wouldn't that work for $Bbb R$? Well, because $Bbb R$ is much larger than $Bbb Q$ in terms of cardinality. You cannot represent it as a field of fractions. It is not countable, and you cannot jump through various hoops to give an explicit choice functions.



            It's not just that. We know for a fact that there are models of set theory without the axiom of choice where there is no choice function. It's not even about being able to define a choice function or not (because in some universes of set theory, there is in fact a definable choice function), it's purely about existence. So whatever definition you have, it is either not going to provably choose from all sets of reals, or it is not provably a choice function. In the case you suggest here, it is in fact provably not choosing from all sets of reals.






            share|cite|improve this answer




















            • Thank you for the extended explanation, the function I suggested definitely won't work. But now I'm thinking of other functions that could, for instance, an infinite recursive program. Has it been proven that a choice function for $Bbb R$ cannot exist?
              – MrMartin
              Sep 5 at 8:46







            • 1




              What does it "proven" from what axioms? The axiom of choice proves that such a choice function exists. Additional set theoretic axioms can even let you define one explicitly (to some extent). But if you want the standard axioms without choice, namely ZF, then yes, it is proven that it is consistent that no such choice function exists. Therefore you cannot define it explicitly. Even worse, though: even allowing choice, it is possible that there are no choice functions which are definable, or even "reasonable definable" if you allow parameters in the definition.
              – Asaf Karagila♦
              Sep 5 at 8:52










            • This is essentially the content of the last paragraph of my answer, by the way.
              – Asaf Karagila♦
              Sep 5 at 8:53














            up vote
            3
            down vote













            There are two possible reasons why you're making this mistake:



            1. You are only thinking about finite subsets of the reals. In that case, yes, you can uniformly define a choice function from all non-empty finite subsets of the real numbers. Take the closest to $0$, or the minimum, that works equally well.



            2. You are really thinking about the integers, rather than the real numbers. Because if I asked you to choose a number, you're probably going to say $1$ or $5$ or $42$ if you're being clever. But you're unlikely to say Chaitin's constant, or $varphi$. Even if you say something like $pi,e,sqrt2$ or $frac12$, those are only a few specific constants in mind. The rest are integers.



              So you're not thinking about the real numbers as a dense linear order. You're thinking about them as $Bbb Z$ + a few more useful numbers. And of course that in that case, taking the smallest positive or the largest negative works.



            But as pointed by others, this is not going to work in general. In fact, even for $Bbb Q$ this is not going to work, because there is no smallest positive rational number and there is no largest negative rational numbers. Simply dividing by two will work.



            However, unlikely with $Bbb R$, we can in fact define a choice function on non-empty sets of $Bbb Q$. Consider each rational numbers as $frac pq$ where $pinBbb Z$ and $qinBbb Nsetminus0$ and $q$ has the smallest possible value. Then simply choose the one with the smallest $q$ that has $p$ closest to $0$.



            But why wouldn't that work for $Bbb R$? Well, because $Bbb R$ is much larger than $Bbb Q$ in terms of cardinality. You cannot represent it as a field of fractions. It is not countable, and you cannot jump through various hoops to give an explicit choice functions.



            It's not just that. We know for a fact that there are models of set theory without the axiom of choice where there is no choice function. It's not even about being able to define a choice function or not (because in some universes of set theory, there is in fact a definable choice function), it's purely about existence. So whatever definition you have, it is either not going to provably choose from all sets of reals, or it is not provably a choice function. In the case you suggest here, it is in fact provably not choosing from all sets of reals.






            share|cite|improve this answer




















            • Thank you for the extended explanation, the function I suggested definitely won't work. But now I'm thinking of other functions that could, for instance, an infinite recursive program. Has it been proven that a choice function for $Bbb R$ cannot exist?
              – MrMartin
              Sep 5 at 8:46







            • 1




              What does it "proven" from what axioms? The axiom of choice proves that such a choice function exists. Additional set theoretic axioms can even let you define one explicitly (to some extent). But if you want the standard axioms without choice, namely ZF, then yes, it is proven that it is consistent that no such choice function exists. Therefore you cannot define it explicitly. Even worse, though: even allowing choice, it is possible that there are no choice functions which are definable, or even "reasonable definable" if you allow parameters in the definition.
              – Asaf Karagila♦
              Sep 5 at 8:52










            • This is essentially the content of the last paragraph of my answer, by the way.
              – Asaf Karagila♦
              Sep 5 at 8:53












            up vote
            3
            down vote










            up vote
            3
            down vote









            There are two possible reasons why you're making this mistake:



            1. You are only thinking about finite subsets of the reals. In that case, yes, you can uniformly define a choice function from all non-empty finite subsets of the real numbers. Take the closest to $0$, or the minimum, that works equally well.



            2. You are really thinking about the integers, rather than the real numbers. Because if I asked you to choose a number, you're probably going to say $1$ or $5$ or $42$ if you're being clever. But you're unlikely to say Chaitin's constant, or $varphi$. Even if you say something like $pi,e,sqrt2$ or $frac12$, those are only a few specific constants in mind. The rest are integers.



              So you're not thinking about the real numbers as a dense linear order. You're thinking about them as $Bbb Z$ + a few more useful numbers. And of course that in that case, taking the smallest positive or the largest negative works.



            But as pointed by others, this is not going to work in general. In fact, even for $Bbb Q$ this is not going to work, because there is no smallest positive rational number and there is no largest negative rational numbers. Simply dividing by two will work.



            However, unlikely with $Bbb R$, we can in fact define a choice function on non-empty sets of $Bbb Q$. Consider each rational numbers as $frac pq$ where $pinBbb Z$ and $qinBbb Nsetminus0$ and $q$ has the smallest possible value. Then simply choose the one with the smallest $q$ that has $p$ closest to $0$.



            But why wouldn't that work for $Bbb R$? Well, because $Bbb R$ is much larger than $Bbb Q$ in terms of cardinality. You cannot represent it as a field of fractions. It is not countable, and you cannot jump through various hoops to give an explicit choice functions.



            It's not just that. We know for a fact that there are models of set theory without the axiom of choice where there is no choice function. It's not even about being able to define a choice function or not (because in some universes of set theory, there is in fact a definable choice function), it's purely about existence. So whatever definition you have, it is either not going to provably choose from all sets of reals, or it is not provably a choice function. In the case you suggest here, it is in fact provably not choosing from all sets of reals.






            share|cite|improve this answer












            There are two possible reasons why you're making this mistake:



            1. You are only thinking about finite subsets of the reals. In that case, yes, you can uniformly define a choice function from all non-empty finite subsets of the real numbers. Take the closest to $0$, or the minimum, that works equally well.



            2. You are really thinking about the integers, rather than the real numbers. Because if I asked you to choose a number, you're probably going to say $1$ or $5$ or $42$ if you're being clever. But you're unlikely to say Chaitin's constant, or $varphi$. Even if you say something like $pi,e,sqrt2$ or $frac12$, those are only a few specific constants in mind. The rest are integers.



              So you're not thinking about the real numbers as a dense linear order. You're thinking about them as $Bbb Z$ + a few more useful numbers. And of course that in that case, taking the smallest positive or the largest negative works.



            But as pointed by others, this is not going to work in general. In fact, even for $Bbb Q$ this is not going to work, because there is no smallest positive rational number and there is no largest negative rational numbers. Simply dividing by two will work.



            However, unlikely with $Bbb R$, we can in fact define a choice function on non-empty sets of $Bbb Q$. Consider each rational numbers as $frac pq$ where $pinBbb Z$ and $qinBbb Nsetminus0$ and $q$ has the smallest possible value. Then simply choose the one with the smallest $q$ that has $p$ closest to $0$.



            But why wouldn't that work for $Bbb R$? Well, because $Bbb R$ is much larger than $Bbb Q$ in terms of cardinality. You cannot represent it as a field of fractions. It is not countable, and you cannot jump through various hoops to give an explicit choice functions.



            It's not just that. We know for a fact that there are models of set theory without the axiom of choice where there is no choice function. It's not even about being able to define a choice function or not (because in some universes of set theory, there is in fact a definable choice function), it's purely about existence. So whatever definition you have, it is either not going to provably choose from all sets of reals, or it is not provably a choice function. In the case you suggest here, it is in fact provably not choosing from all sets of reals.







            share|cite|improve this answer












            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer










            answered Sep 4 at 9:29









            Asaf Karagila♦

            294k32410738




            294k32410738











            • Thank you for the extended explanation, the function I suggested definitely won't work. But now I'm thinking of other functions that could, for instance, an infinite recursive program. Has it been proven that a choice function for $Bbb R$ cannot exist?
              – MrMartin
              Sep 5 at 8:46







            • 1




              What does it "proven" from what axioms? The axiom of choice proves that such a choice function exists. Additional set theoretic axioms can even let you define one explicitly (to some extent). But if you want the standard axioms without choice, namely ZF, then yes, it is proven that it is consistent that no such choice function exists. Therefore you cannot define it explicitly. Even worse, though: even allowing choice, it is possible that there are no choice functions which are definable, or even "reasonable definable" if you allow parameters in the definition.
              – Asaf Karagila♦
              Sep 5 at 8:52










            • This is essentially the content of the last paragraph of my answer, by the way.
              – Asaf Karagila♦
              Sep 5 at 8:53
















            • Thank you for the extended explanation, the function I suggested definitely won't work. But now I'm thinking of other functions that could, for instance, an infinite recursive program. Has it been proven that a choice function for $Bbb R$ cannot exist?
              – MrMartin
              Sep 5 at 8:46







            • 1




              What does it "proven" from what axioms? The axiom of choice proves that such a choice function exists. Additional set theoretic axioms can even let you define one explicitly (to some extent). But if you want the standard axioms without choice, namely ZF, then yes, it is proven that it is consistent that no such choice function exists. Therefore you cannot define it explicitly. Even worse, though: even allowing choice, it is possible that there are no choice functions which are definable, or even "reasonable definable" if you allow parameters in the definition.
              – Asaf Karagila♦
              Sep 5 at 8:52










            • This is essentially the content of the last paragraph of my answer, by the way.
              – Asaf Karagila♦
              Sep 5 at 8:53















            Thank you for the extended explanation, the function I suggested definitely won't work. But now I'm thinking of other functions that could, for instance, an infinite recursive program. Has it been proven that a choice function for $Bbb R$ cannot exist?
            – MrMartin
            Sep 5 at 8:46





            Thank you for the extended explanation, the function I suggested definitely won't work. But now I'm thinking of other functions that could, for instance, an infinite recursive program. Has it been proven that a choice function for $Bbb R$ cannot exist?
            – MrMartin
            Sep 5 at 8:46





            1




            1




            What does it "proven" from what axioms? The axiom of choice proves that such a choice function exists. Additional set theoretic axioms can even let you define one explicitly (to some extent). But if you want the standard axioms without choice, namely ZF, then yes, it is proven that it is consistent that no such choice function exists. Therefore you cannot define it explicitly. Even worse, though: even allowing choice, it is possible that there are no choice functions which are definable, or even "reasonable definable" if you allow parameters in the definition.
            – Asaf Karagila♦
            Sep 5 at 8:52




            What does it "proven" from what axioms? The axiom of choice proves that such a choice function exists. Additional set theoretic axioms can even let you define one explicitly (to some extent). But if you want the standard axioms without choice, namely ZF, then yes, it is proven that it is consistent that no such choice function exists. Therefore you cannot define it explicitly. Even worse, though: even allowing choice, it is possible that there are no choice functions which are definable, or even "reasonable definable" if you allow parameters in the definition.
            – Asaf Karagila♦
            Sep 5 at 8:52












            This is essentially the content of the last paragraph of my answer, by the way.
            – Asaf Karagila♦
            Sep 5 at 8:53




            This is essentially the content of the last paragraph of my answer, by the way.
            – Asaf Karagila♦
            Sep 5 at 8:53










            up vote
            2
            down vote













            Consider the set $mathbb R^+ = xinmathbb R: x>0$. This is clearly a non-empty subset of $mathbb R$, and it consists only of positive numbers (indeed, it consists of all of them).



            So, let's try to apply your rule:




            are positive only ⟶ select the smallest




            OK, so what is the smallest element of $mathbb R^+$? Well, let's assume we've found it; let's call it $s$ (for “smallest”). But then, what about $s/2$? Clearly, $s/2$ is also positive, so it's also in $mathbb R^+$. Moreover, as can be easily checked, $s/2<s$. But that means that we have found an element in $mathbb R^+$ smaller than the smallest element in $mathbb R^+$. Obviously that cannot exist.



            But since this construction works for any element of $mathbb R^+$, it follows that $mathbb R^+$ has no smallest element. And thus your supposed choice function doesn't work.






            share|cite|improve this answer




















            • Sounds like Zeno's paradox. So you're saying that dividing by two ad infinitum does not reach $0$. But $lim limits_x to infty frac12^x = 0$, doesn't it?
              – MrMartin
              Sep 5 at 8:07







            • 1




              @MrMartin: But $0notinmathbb R^+$, therefore a valid choice function cannot give $0$ for $mathbb R^+$. All bounded sets of real numbers have an infimum (the real numbers are complete by construction), but not all bounded sets have a minimum (i.e. an infimum that is contained in the set). A choice function has to give an element of the set, not just an element related to the set (such as a member of its closure).
              – celtschk
              Sep 5 at 8:25














            up vote
            2
            down vote













            Consider the set $mathbb R^+ = xinmathbb R: x>0$. This is clearly a non-empty subset of $mathbb R$, and it consists only of positive numbers (indeed, it consists of all of them).



            So, let's try to apply your rule:




            are positive only ⟶ select the smallest




            OK, so what is the smallest element of $mathbb R^+$? Well, let's assume we've found it; let's call it $s$ (for “smallest”). But then, what about $s/2$? Clearly, $s/2$ is also positive, so it's also in $mathbb R^+$. Moreover, as can be easily checked, $s/2<s$. But that means that we have found an element in $mathbb R^+$ smaller than the smallest element in $mathbb R^+$. Obviously that cannot exist.



            But since this construction works for any element of $mathbb R^+$, it follows that $mathbb R^+$ has no smallest element. And thus your supposed choice function doesn't work.






            share|cite|improve this answer




















            • Sounds like Zeno's paradox. So you're saying that dividing by two ad infinitum does not reach $0$. But $lim limits_x to infty frac12^x = 0$, doesn't it?
              – MrMartin
              Sep 5 at 8:07







            • 1




              @MrMartin: But $0notinmathbb R^+$, therefore a valid choice function cannot give $0$ for $mathbb R^+$. All bounded sets of real numbers have an infimum (the real numbers are complete by construction), but not all bounded sets have a minimum (i.e. an infimum that is contained in the set). A choice function has to give an element of the set, not just an element related to the set (such as a member of its closure).
              – celtschk
              Sep 5 at 8:25












            up vote
            2
            down vote










            up vote
            2
            down vote









            Consider the set $mathbb R^+ = xinmathbb R: x>0$. This is clearly a non-empty subset of $mathbb R$, and it consists only of positive numbers (indeed, it consists of all of them).



            So, let's try to apply your rule:




            are positive only ⟶ select the smallest




            OK, so what is the smallest element of $mathbb R^+$? Well, let's assume we've found it; let's call it $s$ (for “smallest”). But then, what about $s/2$? Clearly, $s/2$ is also positive, so it's also in $mathbb R^+$. Moreover, as can be easily checked, $s/2<s$. But that means that we have found an element in $mathbb R^+$ smaller than the smallest element in $mathbb R^+$. Obviously that cannot exist.



            But since this construction works for any element of $mathbb R^+$, it follows that $mathbb R^+$ has no smallest element. And thus your supposed choice function doesn't work.






            share|cite|improve this answer












            Consider the set $mathbb R^+ = xinmathbb R: x>0$. This is clearly a non-empty subset of $mathbb R$, and it consists only of positive numbers (indeed, it consists of all of them).



            So, let's try to apply your rule:




            are positive only ⟶ select the smallest




            OK, so what is the smallest element of $mathbb R^+$? Well, let's assume we've found it; let's call it $s$ (for “smallest”). But then, what about $s/2$? Clearly, $s/2$ is also positive, so it's also in $mathbb R^+$. Moreover, as can be easily checked, $s/2<s$. But that means that we have found an element in $mathbb R^+$ smaller than the smallest element in $mathbb R^+$. Obviously that cannot exist.



            But since this construction works for any element of $mathbb R^+$, it follows that $mathbb R^+$ has no smallest element. And thus your supposed choice function doesn't work.







            share|cite|improve this answer












            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer










            answered Sep 4 at 9:19









            celtschk

            29.3k75599




            29.3k75599











            • Sounds like Zeno's paradox. So you're saying that dividing by two ad infinitum does not reach $0$. But $lim limits_x to infty frac12^x = 0$, doesn't it?
              – MrMartin
              Sep 5 at 8:07







            • 1




              @MrMartin: But $0notinmathbb R^+$, therefore a valid choice function cannot give $0$ for $mathbb R^+$. All bounded sets of real numbers have an infimum (the real numbers are complete by construction), but not all bounded sets have a minimum (i.e. an infimum that is contained in the set). A choice function has to give an element of the set, not just an element related to the set (such as a member of its closure).
              – celtschk
              Sep 5 at 8:25
















            • Sounds like Zeno's paradox. So you're saying that dividing by two ad infinitum does not reach $0$. But $lim limits_x to infty frac12^x = 0$, doesn't it?
              – MrMartin
              Sep 5 at 8:07







            • 1




              @MrMartin: But $0notinmathbb R^+$, therefore a valid choice function cannot give $0$ for $mathbb R^+$. All bounded sets of real numbers have an infimum (the real numbers are complete by construction), but not all bounded sets have a minimum (i.e. an infimum that is contained in the set). A choice function has to give an element of the set, not just an element related to the set (such as a member of its closure).
              – celtschk
              Sep 5 at 8:25















            Sounds like Zeno's paradox. So you're saying that dividing by two ad infinitum does not reach $0$. But $lim limits_x to infty frac12^x = 0$, doesn't it?
            – MrMartin
            Sep 5 at 8:07





            Sounds like Zeno's paradox. So you're saying that dividing by two ad infinitum does not reach $0$. But $lim limits_x to infty frac12^x = 0$, doesn't it?
            – MrMartin
            Sep 5 at 8:07





            1




            1




            @MrMartin: But $0notinmathbb R^+$, therefore a valid choice function cannot give $0$ for $mathbb R^+$. All bounded sets of real numbers have an infimum (the real numbers are complete by construction), but not all bounded sets have a minimum (i.e. an infimum that is contained in the set). A choice function has to give an element of the set, not just an element related to the set (such as a member of its closure).
            – celtschk
            Sep 5 at 8:25




            @MrMartin: But $0notinmathbb R^+$, therefore a valid choice function cannot give $0$ for $mathbb R^+$. All bounded sets of real numbers have an infimum (the real numbers are complete by construction), but not all bounded sets have a minimum (i.e. an infimum that is contained in the set). A choice function has to give an element of the set, not just an element related to the set (such as a member of its closure).
            – celtschk
            Sep 5 at 8:25

















             

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