The multiplicative groups $mathbbQ^ast$ and $mathbbR^ast$ are not isomorphic

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Of course, since the cardinality of $mathbbR$ exceeds the cardinality of $mathbbQ$, there does not exist a bijection between $mathbbQ^ast$ and $mathbbR^ast$, let alone a group isomorphism.



My question is whether it is also possible to prove that these multiplicative groups are not isomorphic without using a cardinality argument.







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  • Related: Does there exist any surjective group homomrophism from $R^times$ onto $Q^times$)
    – quid♦
    Aug 23 '16 at 22:00















up vote
10
down vote

favorite
3












Of course, since the cardinality of $mathbbR$ exceeds the cardinality of $mathbbQ$, there does not exist a bijection between $mathbbQ^ast$ and $mathbbR^ast$, let alone a group isomorphism.



My question is whether it is also possible to prove that these multiplicative groups are not isomorphic without using a cardinality argument.







share|cite|improve this question






















  • Related: Does there exist any surjective group homomrophism from $R^times$ onto $Q^times$)
    – quid♦
    Aug 23 '16 at 22:00













up vote
10
down vote

favorite
3









up vote
10
down vote

favorite
3






3





Of course, since the cardinality of $mathbbR$ exceeds the cardinality of $mathbbQ$, there does not exist a bijection between $mathbbQ^ast$ and $mathbbR^ast$, let alone a group isomorphism.



My question is whether it is also possible to prove that these multiplicative groups are not isomorphic without using a cardinality argument.







share|cite|improve this question














Of course, since the cardinality of $mathbbR$ exceeds the cardinality of $mathbbQ$, there does not exist a bijection between $mathbbQ^ast$ and $mathbbR^ast$, let alone a group isomorphism.



My question is whether it is also possible to prove that these multiplicative groups are not isomorphic without using a cardinality argument.









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edited Aug 24 '16 at 8:44









Watson

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asked Aug 23 '16 at 21:28









user133281

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  • Related: Does there exist any surjective group homomrophism from $R^times$ onto $Q^times$)
    – quid♦
    Aug 23 '16 at 22:00

















  • Related: Does there exist any surjective group homomrophism from $R^times$ onto $Q^times$)
    – quid♦
    Aug 23 '16 at 22:00
















Related: Does there exist any surjective group homomrophism from $R^times$ onto $Q^times$)
– quid♦
Aug 23 '16 at 22:00





Related: Does there exist any surjective group homomrophism from $R^times$ onto $Q^times$)
– quid♦
Aug 23 '16 at 22:00











4 Answers
4






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up vote
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accepted










In $mathbbR^ast$ every element has a cuberoot; that is, for any $a$ in $mathbbR^ast$ there is an element $b$ such that $b^3=a$. In $mathbbQ^ast$ there are elements that do not.






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    Let $f:R^*rightarrow Q^*$ be an isomorphism, remark that if $f(x)=-1, f(x^2)=1$, since $f$ is an isomorphism, it implies that $x^2=1$ and $x=-1$ since $f(1)=1$.



    There exists $xin R^*, f(x)=2$, if $x>0, f(sqrt x)^2=2$ impossible. If $x<0, f(sqrt -xsqrt-x)=f(-x)=f(-1)f(x)=-2=f(sqrt-x)^2$ Impossible.






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      up vote
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      Suppose $phi: mathbbQ^ast to mathbbR^ast$ is an isomorphism. Let $a in mathbbQ^ast$ satisfy $phi(a)=2$. For each $n$, there is an element $b in mathbbQ^ast$ with $phi(b)=2^1/n$. Now $phi(b^n) = phi(b)^n = (2^1/n)^n = 2 = phi(a)$, so $b^n = a$. It follows that $a$ is an $n$-th power for all $n$. But then it follows that $a=1$, contradiction.






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      • Similarly, one could show that $a'=1$ where $phi(a')=3$. So then $phi(1)$ is equal to both $2$ and $3$.
        – user133281
        Aug 23 '16 at 21:58

















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      Suppose that $f:BbbR^*toBbbQ^*$ is a such homomorphism. Then we have some $x$ such that $f(x)=2$. Now take a cube root $sqrt[3]x$ of $x$, which always exists in $mathbbR^*$. Then $(f(sqrt[3]x))^3 = f(x) = 2$, i.e. $f(sqrt[3]x)$ is a cube root of $2$. But $2$ has no cube root in $mathbbQ^*$, so this is a contradiction.






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      • 1




        This is exactly the argument in the accepted answer.
        – Tobias Kildetoft
        Aug 16 at 7:51










      • sorry@TobiasKildetoft
        – stupid
        Aug 16 at 7:53










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      4 Answers
      4






      active

      oldest

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      4 Answers
      4






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

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      active

      oldest

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      up vote
      9
      down vote



      accepted










      In $mathbbR^ast$ every element has a cuberoot; that is, for any $a$ in $mathbbR^ast$ there is an element $b$ such that $b^3=a$. In $mathbbQ^ast$ there are elements that do not.






      share|cite|improve this answer
























        up vote
        9
        down vote



        accepted










        In $mathbbR^ast$ every element has a cuberoot; that is, for any $a$ in $mathbbR^ast$ there is an element $b$ such that $b^3=a$. In $mathbbQ^ast$ there are elements that do not.






        share|cite|improve this answer






















          up vote
          9
          down vote



          accepted







          up vote
          9
          down vote



          accepted






          In $mathbbR^ast$ every element has a cuberoot; that is, for any $a$ in $mathbbR^ast$ there is an element $b$ such that $b^3=a$. In $mathbbQ^ast$ there are elements that do not.






          share|cite|improve this answer












          In $mathbbR^ast$ every element has a cuberoot; that is, for any $a$ in $mathbbR^ast$ there is an element $b$ such that $b^3=a$. In $mathbbQ^ast$ there are elements that do not.







          share|cite|improve this answer












          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered Aug 23 '16 at 21:42









          Josh B.

          2,38511323




          2,38511323




















              up vote
              2
              down vote













              Let $f:R^*rightarrow Q^*$ be an isomorphism, remark that if $f(x)=-1, f(x^2)=1$, since $f$ is an isomorphism, it implies that $x^2=1$ and $x=-1$ since $f(1)=1$.



              There exists $xin R^*, f(x)=2$, if $x>0, f(sqrt x)^2=2$ impossible. If $x<0, f(sqrt -xsqrt-x)=f(-x)=f(-1)f(x)=-2=f(sqrt-x)^2$ Impossible.






              share|cite|improve this answer
























                up vote
                2
                down vote













                Let $f:R^*rightarrow Q^*$ be an isomorphism, remark that if $f(x)=-1, f(x^2)=1$, since $f$ is an isomorphism, it implies that $x^2=1$ and $x=-1$ since $f(1)=1$.



                There exists $xin R^*, f(x)=2$, if $x>0, f(sqrt x)^2=2$ impossible. If $x<0, f(sqrt -xsqrt-x)=f(-x)=f(-1)f(x)=-2=f(sqrt-x)^2$ Impossible.






                share|cite|improve this answer






















                  up vote
                  2
                  down vote










                  up vote
                  2
                  down vote









                  Let $f:R^*rightarrow Q^*$ be an isomorphism, remark that if $f(x)=-1, f(x^2)=1$, since $f$ is an isomorphism, it implies that $x^2=1$ and $x=-1$ since $f(1)=1$.



                  There exists $xin R^*, f(x)=2$, if $x>0, f(sqrt x)^2=2$ impossible. If $x<0, f(sqrt -xsqrt-x)=f(-x)=f(-1)f(x)=-2=f(sqrt-x)^2$ Impossible.






                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  Let $f:R^*rightarrow Q^*$ be an isomorphism, remark that if $f(x)=-1, f(x^2)=1$, since $f$ is an isomorphism, it implies that $x^2=1$ and $x=-1$ since $f(1)=1$.



                  There exists $xin R^*, f(x)=2$, if $x>0, f(sqrt x)^2=2$ impossible. If $x<0, f(sqrt -xsqrt-x)=f(-x)=f(-1)f(x)=-2=f(sqrt-x)^2$ Impossible.







                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer










                  answered Aug 23 '16 at 21:41









                  Tsemo Aristide

                  51.7k11244




                  51.7k11244




















                      up vote
                      2
                      down vote













                      Suppose $phi: mathbbQ^ast to mathbbR^ast$ is an isomorphism. Let $a in mathbbQ^ast$ satisfy $phi(a)=2$. For each $n$, there is an element $b in mathbbQ^ast$ with $phi(b)=2^1/n$. Now $phi(b^n) = phi(b)^n = (2^1/n)^n = 2 = phi(a)$, so $b^n = a$. It follows that $a$ is an $n$-th power for all $n$. But then it follows that $a=1$, contradiction.






                      share|cite|improve this answer




















                      • Similarly, one could show that $a'=1$ where $phi(a')=3$. So then $phi(1)$ is equal to both $2$ and $3$.
                        – user133281
                        Aug 23 '16 at 21:58














                      up vote
                      2
                      down vote













                      Suppose $phi: mathbbQ^ast to mathbbR^ast$ is an isomorphism. Let $a in mathbbQ^ast$ satisfy $phi(a)=2$. For each $n$, there is an element $b in mathbbQ^ast$ with $phi(b)=2^1/n$. Now $phi(b^n) = phi(b)^n = (2^1/n)^n = 2 = phi(a)$, so $b^n = a$. It follows that $a$ is an $n$-th power for all $n$. But then it follows that $a=1$, contradiction.






                      share|cite|improve this answer




















                      • Similarly, one could show that $a'=1$ where $phi(a')=3$. So then $phi(1)$ is equal to both $2$ and $3$.
                        – user133281
                        Aug 23 '16 at 21:58












                      up vote
                      2
                      down vote










                      up vote
                      2
                      down vote









                      Suppose $phi: mathbbQ^ast to mathbbR^ast$ is an isomorphism. Let $a in mathbbQ^ast$ satisfy $phi(a)=2$. For each $n$, there is an element $b in mathbbQ^ast$ with $phi(b)=2^1/n$. Now $phi(b^n) = phi(b)^n = (2^1/n)^n = 2 = phi(a)$, so $b^n = a$. It follows that $a$ is an $n$-th power for all $n$. But then it follows that $a=1$, contradiction.






                      share|cite|improve this answer












                      Suppose $phi: mathbbQ^ast to mathbbR^ast$ is an isomorphism. Let $a in mathbbQ^ast$ satisfy $phi(a)=2$. For each $n$, there is an element $b in mathbbQ^ast$ with $phi(b)=2^1/n$. Now $phi(b^n) = phi(b)^n = (2^1/n)^n = 2 = phi(a)$, so $b^n = a$. It follows that $a$ is an $n$-th power for all $n$. But then it follows that $a=1$, contradiction.







                      share|cite|improve this answer












                      share|cite|improve this answer



                      share|cite|improve this answer










                      answered Aug 23 '16 at 21:50









                      user133281

                      13.4k22450




                      13.4k22450











                      • Similarly, one could show that $a'=1$ where $phi(a')=3$. So then $phi(1)$ is equal to both $2$ and $3$.
                        – user133281
                        Aug 23 '16 at 21:58
















                      • Similarly, one could show that $a'=1$ where $phi(a')=3$. So then $phi(1)$ is equal to both $2$ and $3$.
                        – user133281
                        Aug 23 '16 at 21:58















                      Similarly, one could show that $a'=1$ where $phi(a')=3$. So then $phi(1)$ is equal to both $2$ and $3$.
                      – user133281
                      Aug 23 '16 at 21:58




                      Similarly, one could show that $a'=1$ where $phi(a')=3$. So then $phi(1)$ is equal to both $2$ and $3$.
                      – user133281
                      Aug 23 '16 at 21:58










                      up vote
                      0
                      down vote













                      Suppose that $f:BbbR^*toBbbQ^*$ is a such homomorphism. Then we have some $x$ such that $f(x)=2$. Now take a cube root $sqrt[3]x$ of $x$, which always exists in $mathbbR^*$. Then $(f(sqrt[3]x))^3 = f(x) = 2$, i.e. $f(sqrt[3]x)$ is a cube root of $2$. But $2$ has no cube root in $mathbbQ^*$, so this is a contradiction.






                      share|cite|improve this answer
















                      • 1




                        This is exactly the argument in the accepted answer.
                        – Tobias Kildetoft
                        Aug 16 at 7:51










                      • sorry@TobiasKildetoft
                        – stupid
                        Aug 16 at 7:53














                      up vote
                      0
                      down vote













                      Suppose that $f:BbbR^*toBbbQ^*$ is a such homomorphism. Then we have some $x$ such that $f(x)=2$. Now take a cube root $sqrt[3]x$ of $x$, which always exists in $mathbbR^*$. Then $(f(sqrt[3]x))^3 = f(x) = 2$, i.e. $f(sqrt[3]x)$ is a cube root of $2$. But $2$ has no cube root in $mathbbQ^*$, so this is a contradiction.






                      share|cite|improve this answer
















                      • 1




                        This is exactly the argument in the accepted answer.
                        – Tobias Kildetoft
                        Aug 16 at 7:51










                      • sorry@TobiasKildetoft
                        – stupid
                        Aug 16 at 7:53












                      up vote
                      0
                      down vote










                      up vote
                      0
                      down vote









                      Suppose that $f:BbbR^*toBbbQ^*$ is a such homomorphism. Then we have some $x$ such that $f(x)=2$. Now take a cube root $sqrt[3]x$ of $x$, which always exists in $mathbbR^*$. Then $(f(sqrt[3]x))^3 = f(x) = 2$, i.e. $f(sqrt[3]x)$ is a cube root of $2$. But $2$ has no cube root in $mathbbQ^*$, so this is a contradiction.






                      share|cite|improve this answer












                      Suppose that $f:BbbR^*toBbbQ^*$ is a such homomorphism. Then we have some $x$ such that $f(x)=2$. Now take a cube root $sqrt[3]x$ of $x$, which always exists in $mathbbR^*$. Then $(f(sqrt[3]x))^3 = f(x) = 2$, i.e. $f(sqrt[3]x)$ is a cube root of $2$. But $2$ has no cube root in $mathbbQ^*$, so this is a contradiction.







                      share|cite|improve this answer












                      share|cite|improve this answer



                      share|cite|improve this answer










                      answered Aug 16 at 7:47









                      stupid

                      630110




                      630110







                      • 1




                        This is exactly the argument in the accepted answer.
                        – Tobias Kildetoft
                        Aug 16 at 7:51










                      • sorry@TobiasKildetoft
                        – stupid
                        Aug 16 at 7:53












                      • 1




                        This is exactly the argument in the accepted answer.
                        – Tobias Kildetoft
                        Aug 16 at 7:51










                      • sorry@TobiasKildetoft
                        – stupid
                        Aug 16 at 7:53







                      1




                      1




                      This is exactly the argument in the accepted answer.
                      – Tobias Kildetoft
                      Aug 16 at 7:51




                      This is exactly the argument in the accepted answer.
                      – Tobias Kildetoft
                      Aug 16 at 7:51












                      sorry@TobiasKildetoft
                      – stupid
                      Aug 16 at 7:53




                      sorry@TobiasKildetoft
                      – stupid
                      Aug 16 at 7:53












                       

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