Sign change for a continuous Lipschitz function

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Suppose I have a Lipschitz function $f$ defined on $[a,b]$. Suppose there is a measure zero set on which $f$ is equal to $0$. Can the following happen?



For any $epsilon > 0$, if $f(x) = 0$ for some $x$, $f$ takes both positive and negative values in $(x, x+ epsilon)$ and also in $(x-epsilon ,x)$?



What if $f$ were also differentiable?



Obviously, the above would not happen if $f$ never becomes negative, i.e. bounces off $0$. A counterexample regarding one sided derivatives of Lipschitz functions posted here shows that at one point it can happen. But, I am interested in showing the following:



If, for some $x$ such that $f(x) = 0$, and for any $epsilon > 0$, $f$ takes both positive and negative values in $(x, x+ epsilon)$ and also in $(x-epsilon ,x)$ then there are at least two points where $f$ changes sign, i.e. in some closed interval to the left it's negative and to the right it's positive,







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    up vote
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    down vote

    favorite












    Suppose I have a Lipschitz function $f$ defined on $[a,b]$. Suppose there is a measure zero set on which $f$ is equal to $0$. Can the following happen?



    For any $epsilon > 0$, if $f(x) = 0$ for some $x$, $f$ takes both positive and negative values in $(x, x+ epsilon)$ and also in $(x-epsilon ,x)$?



    What if $f$ were also differentiable?



    Obviously, the above would not happen if $f$ never becomes negative, i.e. bounces off $0$. A counterexample regarding one sided derivatives of Lipschitz functions posted here shows that at one point it can happen. But, I am interested in showing the following:



    If, for some $x$ such that $f(x) = 0$, and for any $epsilon > 0$, $f$ takes both positive and negative values in $(x, x+ epsilon)$ and also in $(x-epsilon ,x)$ then there are at least two points where $f$ changes sign, i.e. in some closed interval to the left it's negative and to the right it's positive,







    share|cite|improve this question
























      up vote
      1
      down vote

      favorite









      up vote
      1
      down vote

      favorite











      Suppose I have a Lipschitz function $f$ defined on $[a,b]$. Suppose there is a measure zero set on which $f$ is equal to $0$. Can the following happen?



      For any $epsilon > 0$, if $f(x) = 0$ for some $x$, $f$ takes both positive and negative values in $(x, x+ epsilon)$ and also in $(x-epsilon ,x)$?



      What if $f$ were also differentiable?



      Obviously, the above would not happen if $f$ never becomes negative, i.e. bounces off $0$. A counterexample regarding one sided derivatives of Lipschitz functions posted here shows that at one point it can happen. But, I am interested in showing the following:



      If, for some $x$ such that $f(x) = 0$, and for any $epsilon > 0$, $f$ takes both positive and negative values in $(x, x+ epsilon)$ and also in $(x-epsilon ,x)$ then there are at least two points where $f$ changes sign, i.e. in some closed interval to the left it's negative and to the right it's positive,







      share|cite|improve this question














      Suppose I have a Lipschitz function $f$ defined on $[a,b]$. Suppose there is a measure zero set on which $f$ is equal to $0$. Can the following happen?



      For any $epsilon > 0$, if $f(x) = 0$ for some $x$, $f$ takes both positive and negative values in $(x, x+ epsilon)$ and also in $(x-epsilon ,x)$?



      What if $f$ were also differentiable?



      Obviously, the above would not happen if $f$ never becomes negative, i.e. bounces off $0$. A counterexample regarding one sided derivatives of Lipschitz functions posted here shows that at one point it can happen. But, I am interested in showing the following:



      If, for some $x$ such that $f(x) = 0$, and for any $epsilon > 0$, $f$ takes both positive and negative values in $(x, x+ epsilon)$ and also in $(x-epsilon ,x)$ then there are at least two points where $f$ changes sign, i.e. in some closed interval to the left it's negative and to the right it's positive,









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      edited Aug 16 at 10:16

























      asked Aug 16 at 9:59









      avk255

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          Suppose that $f(c)=0.$ Then $f$ on $(c,b)$ takes positive and negative values. Let $d$ be such that $f(d)>0.$ Now let define $$e=supxin (c,d).$$ It is clear that $e<d$ and $f(e)=0.$ Since $f(e)=0$ we have that on $(e,d)$ the function takes positive and negative values. Then there exist $zin (e,d)$ such that $f(z)=0.$ This contradicts the definition of $e.$ So, we conclude that such a function can't exist.






          share|cite|improve this answer




















          • Thanks. But $xin (c,d) $ may be empty. The counterexample in the link has this property when $c = 0$.
            – avk255
            Aug 16 at 10:28










          • No, it can't be empty. Since $f$ takes positive and negative values on $(c,d)$ there exist at least a point $xin (c,d)$ such that $f(x)=0.$
            – mfl
            Aug 16 at 10:30










          • sorry, it's sup, not inf! I thought you meant inf! Thanks a lot. Any thoughts on the last part, the one with at least two points where sign changes?
            – avk255
            Aug 16 at 10:31











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          Suppose that $f(c)=0.$ Then $f$ on $(c,b)$ takes positive and negative values. Let $d$ be such that $f(d)>0.$ Now let define $$e=supxin (c,d).$$ It is clear that $e<d$ and $f(e)=0.$ Since $f(e)=0$ we have that on $(e,d)$ the function takes positive and negative values. Then there exist $zin (e,d)$ such that $f(z)=0.$ This contradicts the definition of $e.$ So, we conclude that such a function can't exist.






          share|cite|improve this answer




















          • Thanks. But $xin (c,d) $ may be empty. The counterexample in the link has this property when $c = 0$.
            – avk255
            Aug 16 at 10:28










          • No, it can't be empty. Since $f$ takes positive and negative values on $(c,d)$ there exist at least a point $xin (c,d)$ such that $f(x)=0.$
            – mfl
            Aug 16 at 10:30










          • sorry, it's sup, not inf! I thought you meant inf! Thanks a lot. Any thoughts on the last part, the one with at least two points where sign changes?
            – avk255
            Aug 16 at 10:31















          up vote
          0
          down vote



          accepted










          Suppose that $f(c)=0.$ Then $f$ on $(c,b)$ takes positive and negative values. Let $d$ be such that $f(d)>0.$ Now let define $$e=supxin (c,d).$$ It is clear that $e<d$ and $f(e)=0.$ Since $f(e)=0$ we have that on $(e,d)$ the function takes positive and negative values. Then there exist $zin (e,d)$ such that $f(z)=0.$ This contradicts the definition of $e.$ So, we conclude that such a function can't exist.






          share|cite|improve this answer




















          • Thanks. But $xin (c,d) $ may be empty. The counterexample in the link has this property when $c = 0$.
            – avk255
            Aug 16 at 10:28










          • No, it can't be empty. Since $f$ takes positive and negative values on $(c,d)$ there exist at least a point $xin (c,d)$ such that $f(x)=0.$
            – mfl
            Aug 16 at 10:30










          • sorry, it's sup, not inf! I thought you meant inf! Thanks a lot. Any thoughts on the last part, the one with at least two points where sign changes?
            – avk255
            Aug 16 at 10:31













          up vote
          0
          down vote



          accepted







          up vote
          0
          down vote



          accepted






          Suppose that $f(c)=0.$ Then $f$ on $(c,b)$ takes positive and negative values. Let $d$ be such that $f(d)>0.$ Now let define $$e=supxin (c,d).$$ It is clear that $e<d$ and $f(e)=0.$ Since $f(e)=0$ we have that on $(e,d)$ the function takes positive and negative values. Then there exist $zin (e,d)$ such that $f(z)=0.$ This contradicts the definition of $e.$ So, we conclude that such a function can't exist.






          share|cite|improve this answer












          Suppose that $f(c)=0.$ Then $f$ on $(c,b)$ takes positive and negative values. Let $d$ be such that $f(d)>0.$ Now let define $$e=supxin (c,d).$$ It is clear that $e<d$ and $f(e)=0.$ Since $f(e)=0$ we have that on $(e,d)$ the function takes positive and negative values. Then there exist $zin (e,d)$ such that $f(z)=0.$ This contradicts the definition of $e.$ So, we conclude that such a function can't exist.







          share|cite|improve this answer












          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered Aug 16 at 10:24









          mfl

          24.7k12040




          24.7k12040











          • Thanks. But $xin (c,d) $ may be empty. The counterexample in the link has this property when $c = 0$.
            – avk255
            Aug 16 at 10:28










          • No, it can't be empty. Since $f$ takes positive and negative values on $(c,d)$ there exist at least a point $xin (c,d)$ such that $f(x)=0.$
            – mfl
            Aug 16 at 10:30










          • sorry, it's sup, not inf! I thought you meant inf! Thanks a lot. Any thoughts on the last part, the one with at least two points where sign changes?
            – avk255
            Aug 16 at 10:31

















          • Thanks. But $xin (c,d) $ may be empty. The counterexample in the link has this property when $c = 0$.
            – avk255
            Aug 16 at 10:28










          • No, it can't be empty. Since $f$ takes positive and negative values on $(c,d)$ there exist at least a point $xin (c,d)$ such that $f(x)=0.$
            – mfl
            Aug 16 at 10:30










          • sorry, it's sup, not inf! I thought you meant inf! Thanks a lot. Any thoughts on the last part, the one with at least two points where sign changes?
            – avk255
            Aug 16 at 10:31
















          Thanks. But $xin (c,d) $ may be empty. The counterexample in the link has this property when $c = 0$.
          – avk255
          Aug 16 at 10:28




          Thanks. But $xin (c,d) $ may be empty. The counterexample in the link has this property when $c = 0$.
          – avk255
          Aug 16 at 10:28












          No, it can't be empty. Since $f$ takes positive and negative values on $(c,d)$ there exist at least a point $xin (c,d)$ such that $f(x)=0.$
          – mfl
          Aug 16 at 10:30




          No, it can't be empty. Since $f$ takes positive and negative values on $(c,d)$ there exist at least a point $xin (c,d)$ such that $f(x)=0.$
          – mfl
          Aug 16 at 10:30












          sorry, it's sup, not inf! I thought you meant inf! Thanks a lot. Any thoughts on the last part, the one with at least two points where sign changes?
          – avk255
          Aug 16 at 10:31





          sorry, it's sup, not inf! I thought you meant inf! Thanks a lot. Any thoughts on the last part, the one with at least two points where sign changes?
          – avk255
          Aug 16 at 10:31













           

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