How many ways to divide group of 12 people into 2 groups of 3 people and 3 groups of 2 people?

The name of the pictureThe name of the pictureThe name of the pictureClash Royale CLAN TAG#URR8PPP











up vote
9
down vote

favorite
8












How many ways to divide group of 12 people into 2 groups of 3 people and 3 groups of 2 people?



my answer to this question is:
$$
12 choose 2 10 choose2 8choose26choose33choose3frac12!2!2!frac13!3!
$$



Although the correct solution should be :
$$
12 choose 2 10 choose2 8choose26choose33choose3frac12!frac13!
$$
What am I missing here? If I have 2 groups of 3 , and 3 groups of 2, shouldn't I divide each group by its factorial in order to cancel the inner ordering of the group?







share|cite|improve this question


















  • 3




    I think the question is designed to confuse students by using the numbers 2 and 3 in two different ways. If you find it confusing, think about this related problem: How many ways to divide a group of 58 people into 4 groups of 7 people and 6 groups of 5 people?
    – Srivatsan
    Sep 17 '11 at 18:00










  • Thanks guys, i can see my mistake clearly now! @Srivatsan, Austin Mohr
    – MichaelS
    Sep 17 '11 at 18:05










  • Zero and zero, respectively.
    – Alexander Gruber♦
    Sep 10 '13 at 18:13














up vote
9
down vote

favorite
8












How many ways to divide group of 12 people into 2 groups of 3 people and 3 groups of 2 people?



my answer to this question is:
$$
12 choose 2 10 choose2 8choose26choose33choose3frac12!2!2!frac13!3!
$$



Although the correct solution should be :
$$
12 choose 2 10 choose2 8choose26choose33choose3frac12!frac13!
$$
What am I missing here? If I have 2 groups of 3 , and 3 groups of 2, shouldn't I divide each group by its factorial in order to cancel the inner ordering of the group?







share|cite|improve this question


















  • 3




    I think the question is designed to confuse students by using the numbers 2 and 3 in two different ways. If you find it confusing, think about this related problem: How many ways to divide a group of 58 people into 4 groups of 7 people and 6 groups of 5 people?
    – Srivatsan
    Sep 17 '11 at 18:00










  • Thanks guys, i can see my mistake clearly now! @Srivatsan, Austin Mohr
    – MichaelS
    Sep 17 '11 at 18:05










  • Zero and zero, respectively.
    – Alexander Gruber♦
    Sep 10 '13 at 18:13












up vote
9
down vote

favorite
8









up vote
9
down vote

favorite
8






8





How many ways to divide group of 12 people into 2 groups of 3 people and 3 groups of 2 people?



my answer to this question is:
$$
12 choose 2 10 choose2 8choose26choose33choose3frac12!2!2!frac13!3!
$$



Although the correct solution should be :
$$
12 choose 2 10 choose2 8choose26choose33choose3frac12!frac13!
$$
What am I missing here? If I have 2 groups of 3 , and 3 groups of 2, shouldn't I divide each group by its factorial in order to cancel the inner ordering of the group?







share|cite|improve this question














How many ways to divide group of 12 people into 2 groups of 3 people and 3 groups of 2 people?



my answer to this question is:
$$
12 choose 2 10 choose2 8choose26choose33choose3frac12!2!2!frac13!3!
$$



Although the correct solution should be :
$$
12 choose 2 10 choose2 8choose26choose33choose3frac12!frac13!
$$
What am I missing here? If I have 2 groups of 3 , and 3 groups of 2, shouldn't I divide each group by its factorial in order to cancel the inner ordering of the group?









share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Sep 17 '11 at 17:43

























asked Sep 17 '11 at 17:36









MichaelS

4082615




4082615







  • 3




    I think the question is designed to confuse students by using the numbers 2 and 3 in two different ways. If you find it confusing, think about this related problem: How many ways to divide a group of 58 people into 4 groups of 7 people and 6 groups of 5 people?
    – Srivatsan
    Sep 17 '11 at 18:00










  • Thanks guys, i can see my mistake clearly now! @Srivatsan, Austin Mohr
    – MichaelS
    Sep 17 '11 at 18:05










  • Zero and zero, respectively.
    – Alexander Gruber♦
    Sep 10 '13 at 18:13












  • 3




    I think the question is designed to confuse students by using the numbers 2 and 3 in two different ways. If you find it confusing, think about this related problem: How many ways to divide a group of 58 people into 4 groups of 7 people and 6 groups of 5 people?
    – Srivatsan
    Sep 17 '11 at 18:00










  • Thanks guys, i can see my mistake clearly now! @Srivatsan, Austin Mohr
    – MichaelS
    Sep 17 '11 at 18:05










  • Zero and zero, respectively.
    – Alexander Gruber♦
    Sep 10 '13 at 18:13







3




3




I think the question is designed to confuse students by using the numbers 2 and 3 in two different ways. If you find it confusing, think about this related problem: How many ways to divide a group of 58 people into 4 groups of 7 people and 6 groups of 5 people?
– Srivatsan
Sep 17 '11 at 18:00




I think the question is designed to confuse students by using the numbers 2 and 3 in two different ways. If you find it confusing, think about this related problem: How many ways to divide a group of 58 people into 4 groups of 7 people and 6 groups of 5 people?
– Srivatsan
Sep 17 '11 at 18:00












Thanks guys, i can see my mistake clearly now! @Srivatsan, Austin Mohr
– MichaelS
Sep 17 '11 at 18:05




Thanks guys, i can see my mistake clearly now! @Srivatsan, Austin Mohr
– MichaelS
Sep 17 '11 at 18:05












Zero and zero, respectively.
– Alexander Gruber♦
Sep 10 '13 at 18:13




Zero and zero, respectively.
– Alexander Gruber♦
Sep 10 '13 at 18:13










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
13
down vote



accepted










The fact that ordering does not matter within a group is already taken care of by the binomial coefficients. The additional $2!$ and $3!$ you see in the answer are taking care of the fact that the order in which the groups themselves were chosen also does not matter.



For example, if your two-person groups are $A, B$, $C, D$, and $E, F$, then the following arrangements are all the same:



$A, B$, $C, D$, $E, F$



$A, B$, $E, F$, $C, D$



$C, D$, $A, B$, $E, F$



$C, D$, $E, F$, $A, B$



$E, F$, $A, B$, $C, D$



$E, F$, $C, D$, $A, B$



Notice there are $3!$ such arrangements. When you just multiply your binomial coefficients together, however, these all get counted as distinct. Dividing by $3!$ collapses these all into a single arrangement.



To give another example with a better selection of numbers, suppose you want to arrange 6 people into three groups of two each. This would be given by
$$
fracbinom62 binom42 binom223!.
$$
Again, the $3!$ is coming from the number of groups, not their size.






share|cite|improve this answer





























    up vote
    0
    down vote













    The number of ways of chosing r objects from a collection of n, $^nC_r$, is $fracn!r!(1-r)!$
    There are $^12C_6$ ways to divide into 2 groups of 6. Then $^6C_3$ ways to divide a group of 6 into 2 groups of 3, $^6C_2$ ways to split into a 2 and a 4 and $^4C_2$ ways to split each 4 into 2s but then 15 of the possibilities would be identical. So it is $$frac^12C_6times2times^6C_3times^6C_2times^4C_23 = frac2times12!times6!times6!times4!3times6!times6!times3!times2!times2!=frac12!times4!3times2!=frac4times12!5$$






    share|cite|improve this answer





























      up vote
      0
      down vote













      When you are continuously choosing the objects from the same group, you may probably be permuting them. For example, consider the formula in your question:



      $$binom63binom33.$$



      For any given outcome, say $A,B,CD,E,F$, from this formula, all other permutations (in this case only $D,E,FA,B,C$) exists. So you are actually permuting them. Since they mean the same in your question, you have to divide it by $2!$.



      i.e. both are of same size and are chosen from the same group, so we actually permuted them. Therefore we don't have to consider repetition for $binom64binom22$, and $binom21binom21$ (which is the case of choosing an apple out of two fruits and an orange out of two fruits).






      share|cite|improve this answer






















        Your Answer




        StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function ()
        return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function ()
        StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix)
        StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
        );
        );
        , "mathjax-editing");

        StackExchange.ready(function()
        var channelOptions =
        tags: "".split(" "),
        id: "69"
        ;
        initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

        StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
        // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
        if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
        StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
        createEditor();
        );

        else
        createEditor();

        );

        function createEditor()
        StackExchange.prepareEditor(
        heartbeatType: 'answer',
        convertImagesToLinks: true,
        noModals: false,
        showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
        reputationToPostImages: 10,
        bindNavPrevention: true,
        postfix: "",
        noCode: true, onDemand: true,
        discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
        ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
        );



        );








         

        draft saved


        draft discarded


















        StackExchange.ready(
        function ()
        StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f65301%2fhow-many-ways-to-divide-group-of-12-people-into-2-groups-of-3-people-and-3-group%23new-answer', 'question_page');

        );

        Post as a guest






























        3 Answers
        3






        active

        oldest

        votes








        3 Answers
        3






        active

        oldest

        votes









        active

        oldest

        votes






        active

        oldest

        votes








        up vote
        13
        down vote



        accepted










        The fact that ordering does not matter within a group is already taken care of by the binomial coefficients. The additional $2!$ and $3!$ you see in the answer are taking care of the fact that the order in which the groups themselves were chosen also does not matter.



        For example, if your two-person groups are $A, B$, $C, D$, and $E, F$, then the following arrangements are all the same:



        $A, B$, $C, D$, $E, F$



        $A, B$, $E, F$, $C, D$



        $C, D$, $A, B$, $E, F$



        $C, D$, $E, F$, $A, B$



        $E, F$, $A, B$, $C, D$



        $E, F$, $C, D$, $A, B$



        Notice there are $3!$ such arrangements. When you just multiply your binomial coefficients together, however, these all get counted as distinct. Dividing by $3!$ collapses these all into a single arrangement.



        To give another example with a better selection of numbers, suppose you want to arrange 6 people into three groups of two each. This would be given by
        $$
        fracbinom62 binom42 binom223!.
        $$
        Again, the $3!$ is coming from the number of groups, not their size.






        share|cite|improve this answer


























          up vote
          13
          down vote



          accepted










          The fact that ordering does not matter within a group is already taken care of by the binomial coefficients. The additional $2!$ and $3!$ you see in the answer are taking care of the fact that the order in which the groups themselves were chosen also does not matter.



          For example, if your two-person groups are $A, B$, $C, D$, and $E, F$, then the following arrangements are all the same:



          $A, B$, $C, D$, $E, F$



          $A, B$, $E, F$, $C, D$



          $C, D$, $A, B$, $E, F$



          $C, D$, $E, F$, $A, B$



          $E, F$, $A, B$, $C, D$



          $E, F$, $C, D$, $A, B$



          Notice there are $3!$ such arrangements. When you just multiply your binomial coefficients together, however, these all get counted as distinct. Dividing by $3!$ collapses these all into a single arrangement.



          To give another example with a better selection of numbers, suppose you want to arrange 6 people into three groups of two each. This would be given by
          $$
          fracbinom62 binom42 binom223!.
          $$
          Again, the $3!$ is coming from the number of groups, not their size.






          share|cite|improve this answer
























            up vote
            13
            down vote



            accepted







            up vote
            13
            down vote



            accepted






            The fact that ordering does not matter within a group is already taken care of by the binomial coefficients. The additional $2!$ and $3!$ you see in the answer are taking care of the fact that the order in which the groups themselves were chosen also does not matter.



            For example, if your two-person groups are $A, B$, $C, D$, and $E, F$, then the following arrangements are all the same:



            $A, B$, $C, D$, $E, F$



            $A, B$, $E, F$, $C, D$



            $C, D$, $A, B$, $E, F$



            $C, D$, $E, F$, $A, B$



            $E, F$, $A, B$, $C, D$



            $E, F$, $C, D$, $A, B$



            Notice there are $3!$ such arrangements. When you just multiply your binomial coefficients together, however, these all get counted as distinct. Dividing by $3!$ collapses these all into a single arrangement.



            To give another example with a better selection of numbers, suppose you want to arrange 6 people into three groups of two each. This would be given by
            $$
            fracbinom62 binom42 binom223!.
            $$
            Again, the $3!$ is coming from the number of groups, not their size.






            share|cite|improve this answer














            The fact that ordering does not matter within a group is already taken care of by the binomial coefficients. The additional $2!$ and $3!$ you see in the answer are taking care of the fact that the order in which the groups themselves were chosen also does not matter.



            For example, if your two-person groups are $A, B$, $C, D$, and $E, F$, then the following arrangements are all the same:



            $A, B$, $C, D$, $E, F$



            $A, B$, $E, F$, $C, D$



            $C, D$, $A, B$, $E, F$



            $C, D$, $E, F$, $A, B$



            $E, F$, $A, B$, $C, D$



            $E, F$, $C, D$, $A, B$



            Notice there are $3!$ such arrangements. When you just multiply your binomial coefficients together, however, these all get counted as distinct. Dividing by $3!$ collapses these all into a single arrangement.



            To give another example with a better selection of numbers, suppose you want to arrange 6 people into three groups of two each. This would be given by
            $$
            fracbinom62 binom42 binom223!.
            $$
            Again, the $3!$ is coming from the number of groups, not their size.







            share|cite|improve this answer














            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer








            edited Sep 17 '11 at 18:02

























            answered Sep 17 '11 at 17:46









            Austin Mohr

            19.7k34997




            19.7k34997




















                up vote
                0
                down vote













                The number of ways of chosing r objects from a collection of n, $^nC_r$, is $fracn!r!(1-r)!$
                There are $^12C_6$ ways to divide into 2 groups of 6. Then $^6C_3$ ways to divide a group of 6 into 2 groups of 3, $^6C_2$ ways to split into a 2 and a 4 and $^4C_2$ ways to split each 4 into 2s but then 15 of the possibilities would be identical. So it is $$frac^12C_6times2times^6C_3times^6C_2times^4C_23 = frac2times12!times6!times6!times4!3times6!times6!times3!times2!times2!=frac12!times4!3times2!=frac4times12!5$$






                share|cite|improve this answer


























                  up vote
                  0
                  down vote













                  The number of ways of chosing r objects from a collection of n, $^nC_r$, is $fracn!r!(1-r)!$
                  There are $^12C_6$ ways to divide into 2 groups of 6. Then $^6C_3$ ways to divide a group of 6 into 2 groups of 3, $^6C_2$ ways to split into a 2 and a 4 and $^4C_2$ ways to split each 4 into 2s but then 15 of the possibilities would be identical. So it is $$frac^12C_6times2times^6C_3times^6C_2times^4C_23 = frac2times12!times6!times6!times4!3times6!times6!times3!times2!times2!=frac12!times4!3times2!=frac4times12!5$$






                  share|cite|improve this answer
























                    up vote
                    0
                    down vote










                    up vote
                    0
                    down vote









                    The number of ways of chosing r objects from a collection of n, $^nC_r$, is $fracn!r!(1-r)!$
                    There are $^12C_6$ ways to divide into 2 groups of 6. Then $^6C_3$ ways to divide a group of 6 into 2 groups of 3, $^6C_2$ ways to split into a 2 and a 4 and $^4C_2$ ways to split each 4 into 2s but then 15 of the possibilities would be identical. So it is $$frac^12C_6times2times^6C_3times^6C_2times^4C_23 = frac2times12!times6!times6!times4!3times6!times6!times3!times2!times2!=frac12!times4!3times2!=frac4times12!5$$






                    share|cite|improve this answer














                    The number of ways of chosing r objects from a collection of n, $^nC_r$, is $fracn!r!(1-r)!$
                    There are $^12C_6$ ways to divide into 2 groups of 6. Then $^6C_3$ ways to divide a group of 6 into 2 groups of 3, $^6C_2$ ways to split into a 2 and a 4 and $^4C_2$ ways to split each 4 into 2s but then 15 of the possibilities would be identical. So it is $$frac^12C_6times2times^6C_3times^6C_2times^4C_23 = frac2times12!times6!times6!times4!3times6!times6!times3!times2!times2!=frac12!times4!3times2!=frac4times12!5$$







                    share|cite|improve this answer














                    share|cite|improve this answer



                    share|cite|improve this answer








                    edited Jun 9 '13 at 12:13









                    Five

                    1728




                    1728










                    answered Sep 17 '11 at 17:57









                    Angela Richardson

                    5,17911532




                    5,17911532




















                        up vote
                        0
                        down vote













                        When you are continuously choosing the objects from the same group, you may probably be permuting them. For example, consider the formula in your question:



                        $$binom63binom33.$$



                        For any given outcome, say $A,B,CD,E,F$, from this formula, all other permutations (in this case only $D,E,FA,B,C$) exists. So you are actually permuting them. Since they mean the same in your question, you have to divide it by $2!$.



                        i.e. both are of same size and are chosen from the same group, so we actually permuted them. Therefore we don't have to consider repetition for $binom64binom22$, and $binom21binom21$ (which is the case of choosing an apple out of two fruits and an orange out of two fruits).






                        share|cite|improve this answer


























                          up vote
                          0
                          down vote













                          When you are continuously choosing the objects from the same group, you may probably be permuting them. For example, consider the formula in your question:



                          $$binom63binom33.$$



                          For any given outcome, say $A,B,CD,E,F$, from this formula, all other permutations (in this case only $D,E,FA,B,C$) exists. So you are actually permuting them. Since they mean the same in your question, you have to divide it by $2!$.



                          i.e. both are of same size and are chosen from the same group, so we actually permuted them. Therefore we don't have to consider repetition for $binom64binom22$, and $binom21binom21$ (which is the case of choosing an apple out of two fruits and an orange out of two fruits).






                          share|cite|improve this answer
























                            up vote
                            0
                            down vote










                            up vote
                            0
                            down vote









                            When you are continuously choosing the objects from the same group, you may probably be permuting them. For example, consider the formula in your question:



                            $$binom63binom33.$$



                            For any given outcome, say $A,B,CD,E,F$, from this formula, all other permutations (in this case only $D,E,FA,B,C$) exists. So you are actually permuting them. Since they mean the same in your question, you have to divide it by $2!$.



                            i.e. both are of same size and are chosen from the same group, so we actually permuted them. Therefore we don't have to consider repetition for $binom64binom22$, and $binom21binom21$ (which is the case of choosing an apple out of two fruits and an orange out of two fruits).






                            share|cite|improve this answer














                            When you are continuously choosing the objects from the same group, you may probably be permuting them. For example, consider the formula in your question:



                            $$binom63binom33.$$



                            For any given outcome, say $A,B,CD,E,F$, from this formula, all other permutations (in this case only $D,E,FA,B,C$) exists. So you are actually permuting them. Since they mean the same in your question, you have to divide it by $2!$.



                            i.e. both are of same size and are chosen from the same group, so we actually permuted them. Therefore we don't have to consider repetition for $binom64binom22$, and $binom21binom21$ (which is the case of choosing an apple out of two fruits and an orange out of two fruits).







                            share|cite|improve this answer














                            share|cite|improve this answer



                            share|cite|improve this answer








                            edited Aug 16 at 4:35









                            kung_foo

                            52




                            52










                            answered Mar 31 at 3:45









                            Nong

                            1,1541521




                            1,1541521






















                                 

                                draft saved


                                draft discarded


























                                 


                                draft saved


                                draft discarded














                                StackExchange.ready(
                                function ()
                                StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f65301%2fhow-many-ways-to-divide-group-of-12-people-into-2-groups-of-3-people-and-3-group%23new-answer', 'question_page');

                                );

                                Post as a guest













































































                                這個網誌中的熱門文章

                                Is there any way to eliminate the singular point to solve this integral by hand or by approximations?

                                Why am i infinitely getting the same tweet with the Twitter Search API?

                                Carbon dioxide