The minimal uncountable well-ordered set has no largest element

The name of the pictureThe name of the pictureThe name of the pictureClash Royale CLAN TAG#URR8PPP











up vote
2
down vote

favorite













Theorem. There exists a well ordered set $A$ having a largest element $Omega$ such that the section $S_Omega$ of $A$ by $Omega$ is uncountable but every other section of $A$ is countable.



Proof. Consider an uncountable well ordered set $B$, consider $C=1,2times B$ with the lexicographic order and let $Omega $ be the smallest element of $C$ for which $S_Omega=xin C$ is uncountable. Let $A=S_OmegacupOmega$
.




I'm trying to show that $S_Omega$ has no largest element.



Assume the converse: there is $Gammain S_Omega$ such that $xle Gamma$ for all $xin S_Omega$. I need to use that $Gamma $ is a largest element. It's essential to consider $S_Gamma$ ($Gammain C$, and $S_Gamma$ is the section of $C$ by $Gamma$). Then $S_Gamma$ is countable. At the same time $S_Omega$ is not. But I don't see any contradiction here... I guess I need to invoke $Omega$ and prove something like $S_OmegacupOmega=S_Gamma$. But I don't see why this holds. $$S_Gamma=xin C: xle Gamma
\ S_OmegacupOmega=xin C: xle Omega$$
Do I need to use $xle Gamma$ for all $xin S_Omega$ somehow to prove the equality? I don't see how.







share|cite|improve this question


















  • 1




    Well, for infinite sets $X$ with an element $xin X$, the complement of $x$, i.e. $Xsetminusx$, is equipotent to $X$. Is that what you want?
    – Lubin
    Aug 27 at 0:20







  • 1




    It may help to realize that every infinite ordinal looks like a limit ordinal (no largest element) followed by a finite number (possibly zero) additional elements at the end. Removing the finite number of additional elements will make the ordinal smaller and will not change the cardinality of the ordinal.
    – Carl Mummert
    Aug 27 at 0:23










  • Certainly $S_OmegacupOmeganeq S_Gamma$, since $Omeganotin S_Omega$ and $S_Gamma$ is a subset of $S_Omega$. I would suggest you think about how $S_Gamma$ and $S_Omega$ are related. If it's not obvious, draw a picture of where all the relevant elements are in your well-ordered set.
    – Eric Wofsey
    Aug 27 at 0:23










  • @Lubin I'm not sure that's what I want because for now I don't see how I can apply it.
    – user531587
    Aug 27 at 0:24






  • 1




    Yes, that looks right to me. You can post it as answer here to your own question, actually.
    – Carl Mummert
    Aug 27 at 0:54














up vote
2
down vote

favorite













Theorem. There exists a well ordered set $A$ having a largest element $Omega$ such that the section $S_Omega$ of $A$ by $Omega$ is uncountable but every other section of $A$ is countable.



Proof. Consider an uncountable well ordered set $B$, consider $C=1,2times B$ with the lexicographic order and let $Omega $ be the smallest element of $C$ for which $S_Omega=xin C$ is uncountable. Let $A=S_OmegacupOmega$
.




I'm trying to show that $S_Omega$ has no largest element.



Assume the converse: there is $Gammain S_Omega$ such that $xle Gamma$ for all $xin S_Omega$. I need to use that $Gamma $ is a largest element. It's essential to consider $S_Gamma$ ($Gammain C$, and $S_Gamma$ is the section of $C$ by $Gamma$). Then $S_Gamma$ is countable. At the same time $S_Omega$ is not. But I don't see any contradiction here... I guess I need to invoke $Omega$ and prove something like $S_OmegacupOmega=S_Gamma$. But I don't see why this holds. $$S_Gamma=xin C: xle Gamma
\ S_OmegacupOmega=xin C: xle Omega$$
Do I need to use $xle Gamma$ for all $xin S_Omega$ somehow to prove the equality? I don't see how.







share|cite|improve this question


















  • 1




    Well, for infinite sets $X$ with an element $xin X$, the complement of $x$, i.e. $Xsetminusx$, is equipotent to $X$. Is that what you want?
    – Lubin
    Aug 27 at 0:20







  • 1




    It may help to realize that every infinite ordinal looks like a limit ordinal (no largest element) followed by a finite number (possibly zero) additional elements at the end. Removing the finite number of additional elements will make the ordinal smaller and will not change the cardinality of the ordinal.
    – Carl Mummert
    Aug 27 at 0:23










  • Certainly $S_OmegacupOmeganeq S_Gamma$, since $Omeganotin S_Omega$ and $S_Gamma$ is a subset of $S_Omega$. I would suggest you think about how $S_Gamma$ and $S_Omega$ are related. If it's not obvious, draw a picture of where all the relevant elements are in your well-ordered set.
    – Eric Wofsey
    Aug 27 at 0:23










  • @Lubin I'm not sure that's what I want because for now I don't see how I can apply it.
    – user531587
    Aug 27 at 0:24






  • 1




    Yes, that looks right to me. You can post it as answer here to your own question, actually.
    – Carl Mummert
    Aug 27 at 0:54












up vote
2
down vote

favorite









up vote
2
down vote

favorite












Theorem. There exists a well ordered set $A$ having a largest element $Omega$ such that the section $S_Omega$ of $A$ by $Omega$ is uncountable but every other section of $A$ is countable.



Proof. Consider an uncountable well ordered set $B$, consider $C=1,2times B$ with the lexicographic order and let $Omega $ be the smallest element of $C$ for which $S_Omega=xin C$ is uncountable. Let $A=S_OmegacupOmega$
.




I'm trying to show that $S_Omega$ has no largest element.



Assume the converse: there is $Gammain S_Omega$ such that $xle Gamma$ for all $xin S_Omega$. I need to use that $Gamma $ is a largest element. It's essential to consider $S_Gamma$ ($Gammain C$, and $S_Gamma$ is the section of $C$ by $Gamma$). Then $S_Gamma$ is countable. At the same time $S_Omega$ is not. But I don't see any contradiction here... I guess I need to invoke $Omega$ and prove something like $S_OmegacupOmega=S_Gamma$. But I don't see why this holds. $$S_Gamma=xin C: xle Gamma
\ S_OmegacupOmega=xin C: xle Omega$$
Do I need to use $xle Gamma$ for all $xin S_Omega$ somehow to prove the equality? I don't see how.







share|cite|improve this question















Theorem. There exists a well ordered set $A$ having a largest element $Omega$ such that the section $S_Omega$ of $A$ by $Omega$ is uncountable but every other section of $A$ is countable.



Proof. Consider an uncountable well ordered set $B$, consider $C=1,2times B$ with the lexicographic order and let $Omega $ be the smallest element of $C$ for which $S_Omega=xin C$ is uncountable. Let $A=S_OmegacupOmega$
.




I'm trying to show that $S_Omega$ has no largest element.



Assume the converse: there is $Gammain S_Omega$ such that $xle Gamma$ for all $xin S_Omega$. I need to use that $Gamma $ is a largest element. It's essential to consider $S_Gamma$ ($Gammain C$, and $S_Gamma$ is the section of $C$ by $Gamma$). Then $S_Gamma$ is countable. At the same time $S_Omega$ is not. But I don't see any contradiction here... I guess I need to invoke $Omega$ and prove something like $S_OmegacupOmega=S_Gamma$. But I don't see why this holds. $$S_Gamma=xin C: xle Gamma
\ S_OmegacupOmega=xin C: xle Omega$$
Do I need to use $xle Gamma$ for all $xin S_Omega$ somehow to prove the equality? I don't see how.









share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Aug 27 at 0:39

























asked Aug 27 at 0:12









user531587

15710




15710







  • 1




    Well, for infinite sets $X$ with an element $xin X$, the complement of $x$, i.e. $Xsetminusx$, is equipotent to $X$. Is that what you want?
    – Lubin
    Aug 27 at 0:20







  • 1




    It may help to realize that every infinite ordinal looks like a limit ordinal (no largest element) followed by a finite number (possibly zero) additional elements at the end. Removing the finite number of additional elements will make the ordinal smaller and will not change the cardinality of the ordinal.
    – Carl Mummert
    Aug 27 at 0:23










  • Certainly $S_OmegacupOmeganeq S_Gamma$, since $Omeganotin S_Omega$ and $S_Gamma$ is a subset of $S_Omega$. I would suggest you think about how $S_Gamma$ and $S_Omega$ are related. If it's not obvious, draw a picture of where all the relevant elements are in your well-ordered set.
    – Eric Wofsey
    Aug 27 at 0:23










  • @Lubin I'm not sure that's what I want because for now I don't see how I can apply it.
    – user531587
    Aug 27 at 0:24






  • 1




    Yes, that looks right to me. You can post it as answer here to your own question, actually.
    – Carl Mummert
    Aug 27 at 0:54












  • 1




    Well, for infinite sets $X$ with an element $xin X$, the complement of $x$, i.e. $Xsetminusx$, is equipotent to $X$. Is that what you want?
    – Lubin
    Aug 27 at 0:20







  • 1




    It may help to realize that every infinite ordinal looks like a limit ordinal (no largest element) followed by a finite number (possibly zero) additional elements at the end. Removing the finite number of additional elements will make the ordinal smaller and will not change the cardinality of the ordinal.
    – Carl Mummert
    Aug 27 at 0:23










  • Certainly $S_OmegacupOmeganeq S_Gamma$, since $Omeganotin S_Omega$ and $S_Gamma$ is a subset of $S_Omega$. I would suggest you think about how $S_Gamma$ and $S_Omega$ are related. If it's not obvious, draw a picture of where all the relevant elements are in your well-ordered set.
    – Eric Wofsey
    Aug 27 at 0:23










  • @Lubin I'm not sure that's what I want because for now I don't see how I can apply it.
    – user531587
    Aug 27 at 0:24






  • 1




    Yes, that looks right to me. You can post it as answer here to your own question, actually.
    – Carl Mummert
    Aug 27 at 0:54







1




1




Well, for infinite sets $X$ with an element $xin X$, the complement of $x$, i.e. $Xsetminusx$, is equipotent to $X$. Is that what you want?
– Lubin
Aug 27 at 0:20





Well, for infinite sets $X$ with an element $xin X$, the complement of $x$, i.e. $Xsetminusx$, is equipotent to $X$. Is that what you want?
– Lubin
Aug 27 at 0:20





1




1




It may help to realize that every infinite ordinal looks like a limit ordinal (no largest element) followed by a finite number (possibly zero) additional elements at the end. Removing the finite number of additional elements will make the ordinal smaller and will not change the cardinality of the ordinal.
– Carl Mummert
Aug 27 at 0:23




It may help to realize that every infinite ordinal looks like a limit ordinal (no largest element) followed by a finite number (possibly zero) additional elements at the end. Removing the finite number of additional elements will make the ordinal smaller and will not change the cardinality of the ordinal.
– Carl Mummert
Aug 27 at 0:23












Certainly $S_OmegacupOmeganeq S_Gamma$, since $Omeganotin S_Omega$ and $S_Gamma$ is a subset of $S_Omega$. I would suggest you think about how $S_Gamma$ and $S_Omega$ are related. If it's not obvious, draw a picture of where all the relevant elements are in your well-ordered set.
– Eric Wofsey
Aug 27 at 0:23




Certainly $S_OmegacupOmeganeq S_Gamma$, since $Omeganotin S_Omega$ and $S_Gamma$ is a subset of $S_Omega$. I would suggest you think about how $S_Gamma$ and $S_Omega$ are related. If it's not obvious, draw a picture of where all the relevant elements are in your well-ordered set.
– Eric Wofsey
Aug 27 at 0:23












@Lubin I'm not sure that's what I want because for now I don't see how I can apply it.
– user531587
Aug 27 at 0:24




@Lubin I'm not sure that's what I want because for now I don't see how I can apply it.
– user531587
Aug 27 at 0:24




1




1




Yes, that looks right to me. You can post it as answer here to your own question, actually.
– Carl Mummert
Aug 27 at 0:54




Yes, that looks right to me. You can post it as answer here to your own question, actually.
– Carl Mummert
Aug 27 at 0:54










1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
1
down vote













Note that $S_GammacupGamma=S_Omega$ holds. Indeed, let $xin S_GammacupGamma$. If $x=Gamma$, then $xin S_Omega$ by the definition of $Gamma$. If $xin S_Gamma$, then $xin S_Omega$ because $Gamma in S_Omega$ (and so if $xle Gamma$, then $x < Omega$). Thus $S_GammacupGammasubseteq S_Omega$. Conversely, let $xin S_Omega$. Since $Gamma$ is a largest element, $xle Gamma$, which means $xin S_GammacupGamma$. Thus $S_GammacupGamma=S_Omega$.



Now $S_Omega$ is uncountable, so $S_Gamma$ must be uncountable. However, for any $tin C$ with $tne Omega$ (in particular for $t=Gamma$; note that $Gammane Omega$ because $Gammain S_Omega$ and $Omeganotin S_Omega$), $S_t$ is countable. This is a contradiction.






share|cite|improve this answer




















    Your Answer




    StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function ()
    return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function ()
    StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix)
    StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
    );
    );
    , "mathjax-editing");

    StackExchange.ready(function()
    var channelOptions =
    tags: "".split(" "),
    id: "69"
    ;
    initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

    StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
    // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
    if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
    StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
    createEditor();
    );

    else
    createEditor();

    );

    function createEditor()
    StackExchange.prepareEditor(
    heartbeatType: 'answer',
    convertImagesToLinks: true,
    noModals: false,
    showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
    reputationToPostImages: 10,
    bindNavPrevention: true,
    postfix: "",
    noCode: true, onDemand: true,
    discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
    ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
    );



    );













     

    draft saved


    draft discarded


















    StackExchange.ready(
    function ()
    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f2895667%2fthe-minimal-uncountable-well-ordered-set-has-no-largest-element%23new-answer', 'question_page');

    );

    Post as a guest






























    1 Answer
    1






    active

    oldest

    votes








    1 Answer
    1






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes








    up vote
    1
    down vote













    Note that $S_GammacupGamma=S_Omega$ holds. Indeed, let $xin S_GammacupGamma$. If $x=Gamma$, then $xin S_Omega$ by the definition of $Gamma$. If $xin S_Gamma$, then $xin S_Omega$ because $Gamma in S_Omega$ (and so if $xle Gamma$, then $x < Omega$). Thus $S_GammacupGammasubseteq S_Omega$. Conversely, let $xin S_Omega$. Since $Gamma$ is a largest element, $xle Gamma$, which means $xin S_GammacupGamma$. Thus $S_GammacupGamma=S_Omega$.



    Now $S_Omega$ is uncountable, so $S_Gamma$ must be uncountable. However, for any $tin C$ with $tne Omega$ (in particular for $t=Gamma$; note that $Gammane Omega$ because $Gammain S_Omega$ and $Omeganotin S_Omega$), $S_t$ is countable. This is a contradiction.






    share|cite|improve this answer
























      up vote
      1
      down vote













      Note that $S_GammacupGamma=S_Omega$ holds. Indeed, let $xin S_GammacupGamma$. If $x=Gamma$, then $xin S_Omega$ by the definition of $Gamma$. If $xin S_Gamma$, then $xin S_Omega$ because $Gamma in S_Omega$ (and so if $xle Gamma$, then $x < Omega$). Thus $S_GammacupGammasubseteq S_Omega$. Conversely, let $xin S_Omega$. Since $Gamma$ is a largest element, $xle Gamma$, which means $xin S_GammacupGamma$. Thus $S_GammacupGamma=S_Omega$.



      Now $S_Omega$ is uncountable, so $S_Gamma$ must be uncountable. However, for any $tin C$ with $tne Omega$ (in particular for $t=Gamma$; note that $Gammane Omega$ because $Gammain S_Omega$ and $Omeganotin S_Omega$), $S_t$ is countable. This is a contradiction.






      share|cite|improve this answer






















        up vote
        1
        down vote










        up vote
        1
        down vote









        Note that $S_GammacupGamma=S_Omega$ holds. Indeed, let $xin S_GammacupGamma$. If $x=Gamma$, then $xin S_Omega$ by the definition of $Gamma$. If $xin S_Gamma$, then $xin S_Omega$ because $Gamma in S_Omega$ (and so if $xle Gamma$, then $x < Omega$). Thus $S_GammacupGammasubseteq S_Omega$. Conversely, let $xin S_Omega$. Since $Gamma$ is a largest element, $xle Gamma$, which means $xin S_GammacupGamma$. Thus $S_GammacupGamma=S_Omega$.



        Now $S_Omega$ is uncountable, so $S_Gamma$ must be uncountable. However, for any $tin C$ with $tne Omega$ (in particular for $t=Gamma$; note that $Gammane Omega$ because $Gammain S_Omega$ and $Omeganotin S_Omega$), $S_t$ is countable. This is a contradiction.






        share|cite|improve this answer












        Note that $S_GammacupGamma=S_Omega$ holds. Indeed, let $xin S_GammacupGamma$. If $x=Gamma$, then $xin S_Omega$ by the definition of $Gamma$. If $xin S_Gamma$, then $xin S_Omega$ because $Gamma in S_Omega$ (and so if $xle Gamma$, then $x < Omega$). Thus $S_GammacupGammasubseteq S_Omega$. Conversely, let $xin S_Omega$. Since $Gamma$ is a largest element, $xle Gamma$, which means $xin S_GammacupGamma$. Thus $S_GammacupGamma=S_Omega$.



        Now $S_Omega$ is uncountable, so $S_Gamma$ must be uncountable. However, for any $tin C$ with $tne Omega$ (in particular for $t=Gamma$; note that $Gammane Omega$ because $Gammain S_Omega$ and $Omeganotin S_Omega$), $S_t$ is countable. This is a contradiction.







        share|cite|improve this answer












        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer










        answered Aug 27 at 1:01









        user531587

        15710




        15710



























             

            draft saved


            draft discarded















































             


            draft saved


            draft discarded














            StackExchange.ready(
            function ()
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f2895667%2fthe-minimal-uncountable-well-ordered-set-has-no-largest-element%23new-answer', 'question_page');

            );

            Post as a guest













































































            這個網誌中的熱門文章

            Is there any way to eliminate the singular point to solve this integral by hand or by approximations?

            Why am i infinitely getting the same tweet with the Twitter Search API?

            Carbon dioxide