No continuous function switches $mathbbQ$ and the irrationals

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Is there a way to prove the following result using connectedness?



Result:



Let $J=mathbbR setminus mathbbQ$ denote the set of irrational numbers. There is no continuous map $f: mathbbR rightarrow mathbbR$ such that $f(mathbbQ) subseteq J$ and $f(J) subseteq mathbbQ$.



http://planetmath.org/encyclopedia/ThereIsNoContinuousFunctionThatSwitchesTheRationalNumbersWithTheIrrationalNumbers.html







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  • 1




    Please make your post self-contained by incorporating the statement. It takes forever for planetmath to render for me. Maintaining the link is fine, so one can see how it is proved there.
    – Ross Millikan
    Aug 4 '11 at 18:18










  • @Ross Millikan: just edited it.
    – user10
    Aug 4 '11 at 18:22






  • 1




    @user10 actually the link is down.
    – Gabriel Romon
    Feb 21 '14 at 23:56










  • I searched planetmath to find the original linked argument; I think it is here and here If it moves again but stays on the site, a Google search such as site:planetmath.org switch rational irrational baire will find it.
    – Jonas Meyer
    Jul 7 '16 at 14:42











  • Linked.
    – Alex Ravsky
    Sep 23 '17 at 1:05














up vote
35
down vote

favorite
25












Is there a way to prove the following result using connectedness?



Result:



Let $J=mathbbR setminus mathbbQ$ denote the set of irrational numbers. There is no continuous map $f: mathbbR rightarrow mathbbR$ such that $f(mathbbQ) subseteq J$ and $f(J) subseteq mathbbQ$.



http://planetmath.org/encyclopedia/ThereIsNoContinuousFunctionThatSwitchesTheRationalNumbersWithTheIrrationalNumbers.html







share|cite|improve this question


















  • 1




    Please make your post self-contained by incorporating the statement. It takes forever for planetmath to render for me. Maintaining the link is fine, so one can see how it is proved there.
    – Ross Millikan
    Aug 4 '11 at 18:18










  • @Ross Millikan: just edited it.
    – user10
    Aug 4 '11 at 18:22






  • 1




    @user10 actually the link is down.
    – Gabriel Romon
    Feb 21 '14 at 23:56










  • I searched planetmath to find the original linked argument; I think it is here and here If it moves again but stays on the site, a Google search such as site:planetmath.org switch rational irrational baire will find it.
    – Jonas Meyer
    Jul 7 '16 at 14:42











  • Linked.
    – Alex Ravsky
    Sep 23 '17 at 1:05












up vote
35
down vote

favorite
25









up vote
35
down vote

favorite
25






25





Is there a way to prove the following result using connectedness?



Result:



Let $J=mathbbR setminus mathbbQ$ denote the set of irrational numbers. There is no continuous map $f: mathbbR rightarrow mathbbR$ such that $f(mathbbQ) subseteq J$ and $f(J) subseteq mathbbQ$.



http://planetmath.org/encyclopedia/ThereIsNoContinuousFunctionThatSwitchesTheRationalNumbersWithTheIrrationalNumbers.html







share|cite|improve this question














Is there a way to prove the following result using connectedness?



Result:



Let $J=mathbbR setminus mathbbQ$ denote the set of irrational numbers. There is no continuous map $f: mathbbR rightarrow mathbbR$ such that $f(mathbbQ) subseteq J$ and $f(J) subseteq mathbbQ$.



http://planetmath.org/encyclopedia/ThereIsNoContinuousFunctionThatSwitchesTheRationalNumbersWithTheIrrationalNumbers.html









share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Feb 23 '14 at 18:17









Nick Peterson

25.5k23758




25.5k23758










asked Aug 4 '11 at 18:11









user10

2,5881734




2,5881734







  • 1




    Please make your post self-contained by incorporating the statement. It takes forever for planetmath to render for me. Maintaining the link is fine, so one can see how it is proved there.
    – Ross Millikan
    Aug 4 '11 at 18:18










  • @Ross Millikan: just edited it.
    – user10
    Aug 4 '11 at 18:22






  • 1




    @user10 actually the link is down.
    – Gabriel Romon
    Feb 21 '14 at 23:56










  • I searched planetmath to find the original linked argument; I think it is here and here If it moves again but stays on the site, a Google search such as site:planetmath.org switch rational irrational baire will find it.
    – Jonas Meyer
    Jul 7 '16 at 14:42











  • Linked.
    – Alex Ravsky
    Sep 23 '17 at 1:05












  • 1




    Please make your post self-contained by incorporating the statement. It takes forever for planetmath to render for me. Maintaining the link is fine, so one can see how it is proved there.
    – Ross Millikan
    Aug 4 '11 at 18:18










  • @Ross Millikan: just edited it.
    – user10
    Aug 4 '11 at 18:22






  • 1




    @user10 actually the link is down.
    – Gabriel Romon
    Feb 21 '14 at 23:56










  • I searched planetmath to find the original linked argument; I think it is here and here If it moves again but stays on the site, a Google search such as site:planetmath.org switch rational irrational baire will find it.
    – Jonas Meyer
    Jul 7 '16 at 14:42











  • Linked.
    – Alex Ravsky
    Sep 23 '17 at 1:05







1




1




Please make your post self-contained by incorporating the statement. It takes forever for planetmath to render for me. Maintaining the link is fine, so one can see how it is proved there.
– Ross Millikan
Aug 4 '11 at 18:18




Please make your post self-contained by incorporating the statement. It takes forever for planetmath to render for me. Maintaining the link is fine, so one can see how it is proved there.
– Ross Millikan
Aug 4 '11 at 18:18












@Ross Millikan: just edited it.
– user10
Aug 4 '11 at 18:22




@Ross Millikan: just edited it.
– user10
Aug 4 '11 at 18:22




1




1




@user10 actually the link is down.
– Gabriel Romon
Feb 21 '14 at 23:56




@user10 actually the link is down.
– Gabriel Romon
Feb 21 '14 at 23:56












I searched planetmath to find the original linked argument; I think it is here and here If it moves again but stays on the site, a Google search such as site:planetmath.org switch rational irrational baire will find it.
– Jonas Meyer
Jul 7 '16 at 14:42





I searched planetmath to find the original linked argument; I think it is here and here If it moves again but stays on the site, a Google search such as site:planetmath.org switch rational irrational baire will find it.
– Jonas Meyer
Jul 7 '16 at 14:42













Linked.
– Alex Ravsky
Sep 23 '17 at 1:05




Linked.
– Alex Ravsky
Sep 23 '17 at 1:05










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
54
down vote



accepted










Here's a way to use connectedness, really amounting to using the intermediate value theorem.



If $f(mathbbQ)subseteq mathbb Rsetminusmathbb Q$ and $f(mathbb Rsetminus mathbb Q)subseteqmathbb Q$, then $f(0)neq f(sqrt 2)$. Because intervals are connected in $mathbb R$ and $f$ is continuous, $f[0,sqrt 2]$ is connected. Because connected subsets of $mathbb R$ are intervals, $f[0,sqrt 2]$ contains the interval $left[minf(0),f(sqrt 2),maxf(0),f(sqrt 2)right]$. The set of irrational numbers in this interval is uncountable, yet contained in the countable set $f(mathbb Q)$, a contradiction.



A slightly briefer outline: The hypothesis implies that $f$ is nonconstant with range contained in the countable set $mathbb Qcup f(mathbb Q)$, whereas the intermediate value theorem and uncountability of $mathbb R$ imply that a nonconstant continuous function $f:mathbb Rtomathbb R$ has uncountable range.






share|cite|improve this answer






















  • thank you, beautiful argument.
    – user10
    Aug 4 '11 at 18:31






  • 4




    More elementary than a proof using Baire Category!
    – GEdgar
    Aug 4 '11 at 18:52






  • 3




    I like the second paragraph version
    – Hagen von Eitzen
    Dec 29 '13 at 23:13










  • @Jonas Meyer How to prove rigoruosly that $f(mathbbQ)$ is countable...a hint would do...I have to do this as a homework question ...i have understood the general idea but unable to express rigoruously the above cardinality argument..thanks
    – spaceman_spiff
    Mar 22 '17 at 9:23






  • 2




    @spaceman_spiff: If $A=a_1,a_2,a_3,ldots$ is a countable set and $f$ is a function defined on $A$, then $f(A)=f(a_1),f(a_2),f(a_3),ldots$ is a countable set.
    – Jonas Meyer
    Mar 23 '17 at 1:35


















up vote
15
down vote













Suppose there is such a mapping $f$. Consider $g:[0,1]to mathbbR$ defined by $$g(x)=f(x)-x.$$ Suppose that $g(x)in mathbbQ$ for some $xin [0,1]$. Then:



  • if $xin J$, then $g(x)-f(x)in mathbbQ$, i.e. $xin mathbbQ$.

  • if $xin mathbbQ$, then $g(x)+xin mathbbQ$, i.e. $f(x)in
    mathbbQ$, i.e. $xin J$

both produce contradictions. Thus $g([0,1])subseteq J$. Since $f$ is continuous, $g$ is continuous, and then $g([0,1])=[min g,max g]$. If $g$ is not constant then there exists $r$ a rational in $[min g,max g]$. By the intermediate value theorem, there exists $zin[0,1]$ such that $g(z)=r$, but this is impossible because $g([0,1])subseteq J$. Therefore, $g$ must be constant and then $$f(x)=c+x$$ with $cin J$. Particularly, $f(c)=2c$ which, as Jonas pointed, is contradictory to the hypothesis. Therefore $f$ can not exist.






share|cite|improve this answer


















  • 1




    A quicker way to finish once you have $f(x)=c+x$ is to note that $f(c)=2c$ is irrational, contradicting the hypothesis. +1: This is a nice alternative that can handle a more general situation. Note that cardinality need not be considered, and in fact $mathbb Q$ can be replaced by any subgroup of $mathbb R$.
    – Jonas Meyer
    Aug 4 '11 at 19:43










  • yes, that's true and thank you @Jonas, I will correct for the sake of simplicity.
    – leo
    Aug 4 '11 at 19:48






  • 1




    To clarify my previous comment, I should have said that this argument applies verbatim if $mathbb Q$ is replaced by any dense subgroup of $mathbb R$ containing $2$. The last restriction could be handled by rescaling if necessary.
    – Jonas Meyer
    Aug 4 '11 at 20:06











  • Yes, I had some doubts after I wrote my comment.
    – leo
    Aug 4 '11 at 20:39










  • Hey Leo, how do you conclude that $g([0,1]) subset $mathbbI$ from the two contradictions above?
    – Kamil
    Jul 7 '16 at 9:24

















up vote
3
down vote













Another simple proof:



Because $f$ is continuous and by connectedness, $f([0,1])=[a,b]$ for some $a<b$. Now define $$g : x mapsto frac1p left(f(x)-q right), textwhere p,q in mathbbQ.$$



In particular, $g(x)$ is rational iff $f(x)$ is rational, i.e. $g$ has the same property that $f$.



Notice that $g([0,1])= left[ fraca-qp, fracb-qp right]$. Therefore, if $b-1 leq q leq a$ and $p geq b-q$ then $g : [0,1] to [0,1]$ and classically $g$ has a fixed point $x_0 in [0,1]$.



Finally we deduce that $x_0 in mathbbQ$ iff $x_0 = g(x_0) notin mathbbQ$, a contradiction.






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  • 1




    This uses compactness as well as connectedness of $[0,1]$ to conclude that $f([0,1])$ is a closed, bounded interval.
    – Jonas Meyer
    Jul 23 '13 at 15:10










  • Very nice proof.
    – leo
    Dec 30 '13 at 1:51










  • If $f([0,1])=[-1,1]$, then you are suggesting to consider $g(x)=f(x)$ in order to find a function $[0,1] to [0,1]$, so it doesn't seem to work.
    – Seirios
    Aug 12 '15 at 5:49










  • Yes, you are right. Define $g(x)=leftlvertdfracf(x)leftlceil max(leftlvert a rightrvert,leftlvert brightrvert)rightrceilrightrvert$. I think that it will work.
    – user 170039
    Aug 13 '15 at 13:48










  • I think so. But now, your solution does not seem to be really simpler than the original.
    – Seirios
    Aug 14 '15 at 6:46










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3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes








3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes








up vote
54
down vote



accepted










Here's a way to use connectedness, really amounting to using the intermediate value theorem.



If $f(mathbbQ)subseteq mathbb Rsetminusmathbb Q$ and $f(mathbb Rsetminus mathbb Q)subseteqmathbb Q$, then $f(0)neq f(sqrt 2)$. Because intervals are connected in $mathbb R$ and $f$ is continuous, $f[0,sqrt 2]$ is connected. Because connected subsets of $mathbb R$ are intervals, $f[0,sqrt 2]$ contains the interval $left[minf(0),f(sqrt 2),maxf(0),f(sqrt 2)right]$. The set of irrational numbers in this interval is uncountable, yet contained in the countable set $f(mathbb Q)$, a contradiction.



A slightly briefer outline: The hypothesis implies that $f$ is nonconstant with range contained in the countable set $mathbb Qcup f(mathbb Q)$, whereas the intermediate value theorem and uncountability of $mathbb R$ imply that a nonconstant continuous function $f:mathbb Rtomathbb R$ has uncountable range.






share|cite|improve this answer






















  • thank you, beautiful argument.
    – user10
    Aug 4 '11 at 18:31






  • 4




    More elementary than a proof using Baire Category!
    – GEdgar
    Aug 4 '11 at 18:52






  • 3




    I like the second paragraph version
    – Hagen von Eitzen
    Dec 29 '13 at 23:13










  • @Jonas Meyer How to prove rigoruosly that $f(mathbbQ)$ is countable...a hint would do...I have to do this as a homework question ...i have understood the general idea but unable to express rigoruously the above cardinality argument..thanks
    – spaceman_spiff
    Mar 22 '17 at 9:23






  • 2




    @spaceman_spiff: If $A=a_1,a_2,a_3,ldots$ is a countable set and $f$ is a function defined on $A$, then $f(A)=f(a_1),f(a_2),f(a_3),ldots$ is a countable set.
    – Jonas Meyer
    Mar 23 '17 at 1:35















up vote
54
down vote



accepted










Here's a way to use connectedness, really amounting to using the intermediate value theorem.



If $f(mathbbQ)subseteq mathbb Rsetminusmathbb Q$ and $f(mathbb Rsetminus mathbb Q)subseteqmathbb Q$, then $f(0)neq f(sqrt 2)$. Because intervals are connected in $mathbb R$ and $f$ is continuous, $f[0,sqrt 2]$ is connected. Because connected subsets of $mathbb R$ are intervals, $f[0,sqrt 2]$ contains the interval $left[minf(0),f(sqrt 2),maxf(0),f(sqrt 2)right]$. The set of irrational numbers in this interval is uncountable, yet contained in the countable set $f(mathbb Q)$, a contradiction.



A slightly briefer outline: The hypothesis implies that $f$ is nonconstant with range contained in the countable set $mathbb Qcup f(mathbb Q)$, whereas the intermediate value theorem and uncountability of $mathbb R$ imply that a nonconstant continuous function $f:mathbb Rtomathbb R$ has uncountable range.






share|cite|improve this answer






















  • thank you, beautiful argument.
    – user10
    Aug 4 '11 at 18:31






  • 4




    More elementary than a proof using Baire Category!
    – GEdgar
    Aug 4 '11 at 18:52






  • 3




    I like the second paragraph version
    – Hagen von Eitzen
    Dec 29 '13 at 23:13










  • @Jonas Meyer How to prove rigoruosly that $f(mathbbQ)$ is countable...a hint would do...I have to do this as a homework question ...i have understood the general idea but unable to express rigoruously the above cardinality argument..thanks
    – spaceman_spiff
    Mar 22 '17 at 9:23






  • 2




    @spaceman_spiff: If $A=a_1,a_2,a_3,ldots$ is a countable set and $f$ is a function defined on $A$, then $f(A)=f(a_1),f(a_2),f(a_3),ldots$ is a countable set.
    – Jonas Meyer
    Mar 23 '17 at 1:35













up vote
54
down vote



accepted







up vote
54
down vote



accepted






Here's a way to use connectedness, really amounting to using the intermediate value theorem.



If $f(mathbbQ)subseteq mathbb Rsetminusmathbb Q$ and $f(mathbb Rsetminus mathbb Q)subseteqmathbb Q$, then $f(0)neq f(sqrt 2)$. Because intervals are connected in $mathbb R$ and $f$ is continuous, $f[0,sqrt 2]$ is connected. Because connected subsets of $mathbb R$ are intervals, $f[0,sqrt 2]$ contains the interval $left[minf(0),f(sqrt 2),maxf(0),f(sqrt 2)right]$. The set of irrational numbers in this interval is uncountable, yet contained in the countable set $f(mathbb Q)$, a contradiction.



A slightly briefer outline: The hypothesis implies that $f$ is nonconstant with range contained in the countable set $mathbb Qcup f(mathbb Q)$, whereas the intermediate value theorem and uncountability of $mathbb R$ imply that a nonconstant continuous function $f:mathbb Rtomathbb R$ has uncountable range.






share|cite|improve this answer














Here's a way to use connectedness, really amounting to using the intermediate value theorem.



If $f(mathbbQ)subseteq mathbb Rsetminusmathbb Q$ and $f(mathbb Rsetminus mathbb Q)subseteqmathbb Q$, then $f(0)neq f(sqrt 2)$. Because intervals are connected in $mathbb R$ and $f$ is continuous, $f[0,sqrt 2]$ is connected. Because connected subsets of $mathbb R$ are intervals, $f[0,sqrt 2]$ contains the interval $left[minf(0),f(sqrt 2),maxf(0),f(sqrt 2)right]$. The set of irrational numbers in this interval is uncountable, yet contained in the countable set $f(mathbb Q)$, a contradiction.



A slightly briefer outline: The hypothesis implies that $f$ is nonconstant with range contained in the countable set $mathbb Qcup f(mathbb Q)$, whereas the intermediate value theorem and uncountability of $mathbb R$ imply that a nonconstant continuous function $f:mathbb Rtomathbb R$ has uncountable range.







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited Aug 4 '11 at 18:45

























answered Aug 4 '11 at 18:22









Jonas Meyer

39.1k6141246




39.1k6141246











  • thank you, beautiful argument.
    – user10
    Aug 4 '11 at 18:31






  • 4




    More elementary than a proof using Baire Category!
    – GEdgar
    Aug 4 '11 at 18:52






  • 3




    I like the second paragraph version
    – Hagen von Eitzen
    Dec 29 '13 at 23:13










  • @Jonas Meyer How to prove rigoruosly that $f(mathbbQ)$ is countable...a hint would do...I have to do this as a homework question ...i have understood the general idea but unable to express rigoruously the above cardinality argument..thanks
    – spaceman_spiff
    Mar 22 '17 at 9:23






  • 2




    @spaceman_spiff: If $A=a_1,a_2,a_3,ldots$ is a countable set and $f$ is a function defined on $A$, then $f(A)=f(a_1),f(a_2),f(a_3),ldots$ is a countable set.
    – Jonas Meyer
    Mar 23 '17 at 1:35

















  • thank you, beautiful argument.
    – user10
    Aug 4 '11 at 18:31






  • 4




    More elementary than a proof using Baire Category!
    – GEdgar
    Aug 4 '11 at 18:52






  • 3




    I like the second paragraph version
    – Hagen von Eitzen
    Dec 29 '13 at 23:13










  • @Jonas Meyer How to prove rigoruosly that $f(mathbbQ)$ is countable...a hint would do...I have to do this as a homework question ...i have understood the general idea but unable to express rigoruously the above cardinality argument..thanks
    – spaceman_spiff
    Mar 22 '17 at 9:23






  • 2




    @spaceman_spiff: If $A=a_1,a_2,a_3,ldots$ is a countable set and $f$ is a function defined on $A$, then $f(A)=f(a_1),f(a_2),f(a_3),ldots$ is a countable set.
    – Jonas Meyer
    Mar 23 '17 at 1:35
















thank you, beautiful argument.
– user10
Aug 4 '11 at 18:31




thank you, beautiful argument.
– user10
Aug 4 '11 at 18:31




4




4




More elementary than a proof using Baire Category!
– GEdgar
Aug 4 '11 at 18:52




More elementary than a proof using Baire Category!
– GEdgar
Aug 4 '11 at 18:52




3




3




I like the second paragraph version
– Hagen von Eitzen
Dec 29 '13 at 23:13




I like the second paragraph version
– Hagen von Eitzen
Dec 29 '13 at 23:13












@Jonas Meyer How to prove rigoruosly that $f(mathbbQ)$ is countable...a hint would do...I have to do this as a homework question ...i have understood the general idea but unable to express rigoruously the above cardinality argument..thanks
– spaceman_spiff
Mar 22 '17 at 9:23




@Jonas Meyer How to prove rigoruosly that $f(mathbbQ)$ is countable...a hint would do...I have to do this as a homework question ...i have understood the general idea but unable to express rigoruously the above cardinality argument..thanks
– spaceman_spiff
Mar 22 '17 at 9:23




2




2




@spaceman_spiff: If $A=a_1,a_2,a_3,ldots$ is a countable set and $f$ is a function defined on $A$, then $f(A)=f(a_1),f(a_2),f(a_3),ldots$ is a countable set.
– Jonas Meyer
Mar 23 '17 at 1:35





@spaceman_spiff: If $A=a_1,a_2,a_3,ldots$ is a countable set and $f$ is a function defined on $A$, then $f(A)=f(a_1),f(a_2),f(a_3),ldots$ is a countable set.
– Jonas Meyer
Mar 23 '17 at 1:35











up vote
15
down vote













Suppose there is such a mapping $f$. Consider $g:[0,1]to mathbbR$ defined by $$g(x)=f(x)-x.$$ Suppose that $g(x)in mathbbQ$ for some $xin [0,1]$. Then:



  • if $xin J$, then $g(x)-f(x)in mathbbQ$, i.e. $xin mathbbQ$.

  • if $xin mathbbQ$, then $g(x)+xin mathbbQ$, i.e. $f(x)in
    mathbbQ$, i.e. $xin J$

both produce contradictions. Thus $g([0,1])subseteq J$. Since $f$ is continuous, $g$ is continuous, and then $g([0,1])=[min g,max g]$. If $g$ is not constant then there exists $r$ a rational in $[min g,max g]$. By the intermediate value theorem, there exists $zin[0,1]$ such that $g(z)=r$, but this is impossible because $g([0,1])subseteq J$. Therefore, $g$ must be constant and then $$f(x)=c+x$$ with $cin J$. Particularly, $f(c)=2c$ which, as Jonas pointed, is contradictory to the hypothesis. Therefore $f$ can not exist.






share|cite|improve this answer


















  • 1




    A quicker way to finish once you have $f(x)=c+x$ is to note that $f(c)=2c$ is irrational, contradicting the hypothesis. +1: This is a nice alternative that can handle a more general situation. Note that cardinality need not be considered, and in fact $mathbb Q$ can be replaced by any subgroup of $mathbb R$.
    – Jonas Meyer
    Aug 4 '11 at 19:43










  • yes, that's true and thank you @Jonas, I will correct for the sake of simplicity.
    – leo
    Aug 4 '11 at 19:48






  • 1




    To clarify my previous comment, I should have said that this argument applies verbatim if $mathbb Q$ is replaced by any dense subgroup of $mathbb R$ containing $2$. The last restriction could be handled by rescaling if necessary.
    – Jonas Meyer
    Aug 4 '11 at 20:06











  • Yes, I had some doubts after I wrote my comment.
    – leo
    Aug 4 '11 at 20:39










  • Hey Leo, how do you conclude that $g([0,1]) subset $mathbbI$ from the two contradictions above?
    – Kamil
    Jul 7 '16 at 9:24














up vote
15
down vote













Suppose there is such a mapping $f$. Consider $g:[0,1]to mathbbR$ defined by $$g(x)=f(x)-x.$$ Suppose that $g(x)in mathbbQ$ for some $xin [0,1]$. Then:



  • if $xin J$, then $g(x)-f(x)in mathbbQ$, i.e. $xin mathbbQ$.

  • if $xin mathbbQ$, then $g(x)+xin mathbbQ$, i.e. $f(x)in
    mathbbQ$, i.e. $xin J$

both produce contradictions. Thus $g([0,1])subseteq J$. Since $f$ is continuous, $g$ is continuous, and then $g([0,1])=[min g,max g]$. If $g$ is not constant then there exists $r$ a rational in $[min g,max g]$. By the intermediate value theorem, there exists $zin[0,1]$ such that $g(z)=r$, but this is impossible because $g([0,1])subseteq J$. Therefore, $g$ must be constant and then $$f(x)=c+x$$ with $cin J$. Particularly, $f(c)=2c$ which, as Jonas pointed, is contradictory to the hypothesis. Therefore $f$ can not exist.






share|cite|improve this answer


















  • 1




    A quicker way to finish once you have $f(x)=c+x$ is to note that $f(c)=2c$ is irrational, contradicting the hypothesis. +1: This is a nice alternative that can handle a more general situation. Note that cardinality need not be considered, and in fact $mathbb Q$ can be replaced by any subgroup of $mathbb R$.
    – Jonas Meyer
    Aug 4 '11 at 19:43










  • yes, that's true and thank you @Jonas, I will correct for the sake of simplicity.
    – leo
    Aug 4 '11 at 19:48






  • 1




    To clarify my previous comment, I should have said that this argument applies verbatim if $mathbb Q$ is replaced by any dense subgroup of $mathbb R$ containing $2$. The last restriction could be handled by rescaling if necessary.
    – Jonas Meyer
    Aug 4 '11 at 20:06











  • Yes, I had some doubts after I wrote my comment.
    – leo
    Aug 4 '11 at 20:39










  • Hey Leo, how do you conclude that $g([0,1]) subset $mathbbI$ from the two contradictions above?
    – Kamil
    Jul 7 '16 at 9:24












up vote
15
down vote










up vote
15
down vote









Suppose there is such a mapping $f$. Consider $g:[0,1]to mathbbR$ defined by $$g(x)=f(x)-x.$$ Suppose that $g(x)in mathbbQ$ for some $xin [0,1]$. Then:



  • if $xin J$, then $g(x)-f(x)in mathbbQ$, i.e. $xin mathbbQ$.

  • if $xin mathbbQ$, then $g(x)+xin mathbbQ$, i.e. $f(x)in
    mathbbQ$, i.e. $xin J$

both produce contradictions. Thus $g([0,1])subseteq J$. Since $f$ is continuous, $g$ is continuous, and then $g([0,1])=[min g,max g]$. If $g$ is not constant then there exists $r$ a rational in $[min g,max g]$. By the intermediate value theorem, there exists $zin[0,1]$ such that $g(z)=r$, but this is impossible because $g([0,1])subseteq J$. Therefore, $g$ must be constant and then $$f(x)=c+x$$ with $cin J$. Particularly, $f(c)=2c$ which, as Jonas pointed, is contradictory to the hypothesis. Therefore $f$ can not exist.






share|cite|improve this answer














Suppose there is such a mapping $f$. Consider $g:[0,1]to mathbbR$ defined by $$g(x)=f(x)-x.$$ Suppose that $g(x)in mathbbQ$ for some $xin [0,1]$. Then:



  • if $xin J$, then $g(x)-f(x)in mathbbQ$, i.e. $xin mathbbQ$.

  • if $xin mathbbQ$, then $g(x)+xin mathbbQ$, i.e. $f(x)in
    mathbbQ$, i.e. $xin J$

both produce contradictions. Thus $g([0,1])subseteq J$. Since $f$ is continuous, $g$ is continuous, and then $g([0,1])=[min g,max g]$. If $g$ is not constant then there exists $r$ a rational in $[min g,max g]$. By the intermediate value theorem, there exists $zin[0,1]$ such that $g(z)=r$, but this is impossible because $g([0,1])subseteq J$. Therefore, $g$ must be constant and then $$f(x)=c+x$$ with $cin J$. Particularly, $f(c)=2c$ which, as Jonas pointed, is contradictory to the hypothesis. Therefore $f$ can not exist.







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited Jul 22 '16 at 18:31

























answered Aug 4 '11 at 19:30









leo

5,77533179




5,77533179







  • 1




    A quicker way to finish once you have $f(x)=c+x$ is to note that $f(c)=2c$ is irrational, contradicting the hypothesis. +1: This is a nice alternative that can handle a more general situation. Note that cardinality need not be considered, and in fact $mathbb Q$ can be replaced by any subgroup of $mathbb R$.
    – Jonas Meyer
    Aug 4 '11 at 19:43










  • yes, that's true and thank you @Jonas, I will correct for the sake of simplicity.
    – leo
    Aug 4 '11 at 19:48






  • 1




    To clarify my previous comment, I should have said that this argument applies verbatim if $mathbb Q$ is replaced by any dense subgroup of $mathbb R$ containing $2$. The last restriction could be handled by rescaling if necessary.
    – Jonas Meyer
    Aug 4 '11 at 20:06











  • Yes, I had some doubts after I wrote my comment.
    – leo
    Aug 4 '11 at 20:39










  • Hey Leo, how do you conclude that $g([0,1]) subset $mathbbI$ from the two contradictions above?
    – Kamil
    Jul 7 '16 at 9:24












  • 1




    A quicker way to finish once you have $f(x)=c+x$ is to note that $f(c)=2c$ is irrational, contradicting the hypothesis. +1: This is a nice alternative that can handle a more general situation. Note that cardinality need not be considered, and in fact $mathbb Q$ can be replaced by any subgroup of $mathbb R$.
    – Jonas Meyer
    Aug 4 '11 at 19:43










  • yes, that's true and thank you @Jonas, I will correct for the sake of simplicity.
    – leo
    Aug 4 '11 at 19:48






  • 1




    To clarify my previous comment, I should have said that this argument applies verbatim if $mathbb Q$ is replaced by any dense subgroup of $mathbb R$ containing $2$. The last restriction could be handled by rescaling if necessary.
    – Jonas Meyer
    Aug 4 '11 at 20:06











  • Yes, I had some doubts after I wrote my comment.
    – leo
    Aug 4 '11 at 20:39










  • Hey Leo, how do you conclude that $g([0,1]) subset $mathbbI$ from the two contradictions above?
    – Kamil
    Jul 7 '16 at 9:24







1




1




A quicker way to finish once you have $f(x)=c+x$ is to note that $f(c)=2c$ is irrational, contradicting the hypothesis. +1: This is a nice alternative that can handle a more general situation. Note that cardinality need not be considered, and in fact $mathbb Q$ can be replaced by any subgroup of $mathbb R$.
– Jonas Meyer
Aug 4 '11 at 19:43




A quicker way to finish once you have $f(x)=c+x$ is to note that $f(c)=2c$ is irrational, contradicting the hypothesis. +1: This is a nice alternative that can handle a more general situation. Note that cardinality need not be considered, and in fact $mathbb Q$ can be replaced by any subgroup of $mathbb R$.
– Jonas Meyer
Aug 4 '11 at 19:43












yes, that's true and thank you @Jonas, I will correct for the sake of simplicity.
– leo
Aug 4 '11 at 19:48




yes, that's true and thank you @Jonas, I will correct for the sake of simplicity.
– leo
Aug 4 '11 at 19:48




1




1




To clarify my previous comment, I should have said that this argument applies verbatim if $mathbb Q$ is replaced by any dense subgroup of $mathbb R$ containing $2$. The last restriction could be handled by rescaling if necessary.
– Jonas Meyer
Aug 4 '11 at 20:06





To clarify my previous comment, I should have said that this argument applies verbatim if $mathbb Q$ is replaced by any dense subgroup of $mathbb R$ containing $2$. The last restriction could be handled by rescaling if necessary.
– Jonas Meyer
Aug 4 '11 at 20:06













Yes, I had some doubts after I wrote my comment.
– leo
Aug 4 '11 at 20:39




Yes, I had some doubts after I wrote my comment.
– leo
Aug 4 '11 at 20:39












Hey Leo, how do you conclude that $g([0,1]) subset $mathbbI$ from the two contradictions above?
– Kamil
Jul 7 '16 at 9:24




Hey Leo, how do you conclude that $g([0,1]) subset $mathbbI$ from the two contradictions above?
– Kamil
Jul 7 '16 at 9:24










up vote
3
down vote













Another simple proof:



Because $f$ is continuous and by connectedness, $f([0,1])=[a,b]$ for some $a<b$. Now define $$g : x mapsto frac1p left(f(x)-q right), textwhere p,q in mathbbQ.$$



In particular, $g(x)$ is rational iff $f(x)$ is rational, i.e. $g$ has the same property that $f$.



Notice that $g([0,1])= left[ fraca-qp, fracb-qp right]$. Therefore, if $b-1 leq q leq a$ and $p geq b-q$ then $g : [0,1] to [0,1]$ and classically $g$ has a fixed point $x_0 in [0,1]$.



Finally we deduce that $x_0 in mathbbQ$ iff $x_0 = g(x_0) notin mathbbQ$, a contradiction.






share|cite|improve this answer


















  • 1




    This uses compactness as well as connectedness of $[0,1]$ to conclude that $f([0,1])$ is a closed, bounded interval.
    – Jonas Meyer
    Jul 23 '13 at 15:10










  • Very nice proof.
    – leo
    Dec 30 '13 at 1:51










  • If $f([0,1])=[-1,1]$, then you are suggesting to consider $g(x)=f(x)$ in order to find a function $[0,1] to [0,1]$, so it doesn't seem to work.
    – Seirios
    Aug 12 '15 at 5:49










  • Yes, you are right. Define $g(x)=leftlvertdfracf(x)leftlceil max(leftlvert a rightrvert,leftlvert brightrvert)rightrceilrightrvert$. I think that it will work.
    – user 170039
    Aug 13 '15 at 13:48










  • I think so. But now, your solution does not seem to be really simpler than the original.
    – Seirios
    Aug 14 '15 at 6:46














up vote
3
down vote













Another simple proof:



Because $f$ is continuous and by connectedness, $f([0,1])=[a,b]$ for some $a<b$. Now define $$g : x mapsto frac1p left(f(x)-q right), textwhere p,q in mathbbQ.$$



In particular, $g(x)$ is rational iff $f(x)$ is rational, i.e. $g$ has the same property that $f$.



Notice that $g([0,1])= left[ fraca-qp, fracb-qp right]$. Therefore, if $b-1 leq q leq a$ and $p geq b-q$ then $g : [0,1] to [0,1]$ and classically $g$ has a fixed point $x_0 in [0,1]$.



Finally we deduce that $x_0 in mathbbQ$ iff $x_0 = g(x_0) notin mathbbQ$, a contradiction.






share|cite|improve this answer


















  • 1




    This uses compactness as well as connectedness of $[0,1]$ to conclude that $f([0,1])$ is a closed, bounded interval.
    – Jonas Meyer
    Jul 23 '13 at 15:10










  • Very nice proof.
    – leo
    Dec 30 '13 at 1:51










  • If $f([0,1])=[-1,1]$, then you are suggesting to consider $g(x)=f(x)$ in order to find a function $[0,1] to [0,1]$, so it doesn't seem to work.
    – Seirios
    Aug 12 '15 at 5:49










  • Yes, you are right. Define $g(x)=leftlvertdfracf(x)leftlceil max(leftlvert a rightrvert,leftlvert brightrvert)rightrceilrightrvert$. I think that it will work.
    – user 170039
    Aug 13 '15 at 13:48










  • I think so. But now, your solution does not seem to be really simpler than the original.
    – Seirios
    Aug 14 '15 at 6:46












up vote
3
down vote










up vote
3
down vote









Another simple proof:



Because $f$ is continuous and by connectedness, $f([0,1])=[a,b]$ for some $a<b$. Now define $$g : x mapsto frac1p left(f(x)-q right), textwhere p,q in mathbbQ.$$



In particular, $g(x)$ is rational iff $f(x)$ is rational, i.e. $g$ has the same property that $f$.



Notice that $g([0,1])= left[ fraca-qp, fracb-qp right]$. Therefore, if $b-1 leq q leq a$ and $p geq b-q$ then $g : [0,1] to [0,1]$ and classically $g$ has a fixed point $x_0 in [0,1]$.



Finally we deduce that $x_0 in mathbbQ$ iff $x_0 = g(x_0) notin mathbbQ$, a contradiction.






share|cite|improve this answer














Another simple proof:



Because $f$ is continuous and by connectedness, $f([0,1])=[a,b]$ for some $a<b$. Now define $$g : x mapsto frac1p left(f(x)-q right), textwhere p,q in mathbbQ.$$



In particular, $g(x)$ is rational iff $f(x)$ is rational, i.e. $g$ has the same property that $f$.



Notice that $g([0,1])= left[ fraca-qp, fracb-qp right]$. Therefore, if $b-1 leq q leq a$ and $p geq b-q$ then $g : [0,1] to [0,1]$ and classically $g$ has a fixed point $x_0 in [0,1]$.



Finally we deduce that $x_0 in mathbbQ$ iff $x_0 = g(x_0) notin mathbbQ$, a contradiction.







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited Sep 22 '17 at 21:53







user228113

















answered Jul 23 '13 at 13:20









Seirios

23.6k34497




23.6k34497







  • 1




    This uses compactness as well as connectedness of $[0,1]$ to conclude that $f([0,1])$ is a closed, bounded interval.
    – Jonas Meyer
    Jul 23 '13 at 15:10










  • Very nice proof.
    – leo
    Dec 30 '13 at 1:51










  • If $f([0,1])=[-1,1]$, then you are suggesting to consider $g(x)=f(x)$ in order to find a function $[0,1] to [0,1]$, so it doesn't seem to work.
    – Seirios
    Aug 12 '15 at 5:49










  • Yes, you are right. Define $g(x)=leftlvertdfracf(x)leftlceil max(leftlvert a rightrvert,leftlvert brightrvert)rightrceilrightrvert$. I think that it will work.
    – user 170039
    Aug 13 '15 at 13:48










  • I think so. But now, your solution does not seem to be really simpler than the original.
    – Seirios
    Aug 14 '15 at 6:46












  • 1




    This uses compactness as well as connectedness of $[0,1]$ to conclude that $f([0,1])$ is a closed, bounded interval.
    – Jonas Meyer
    Jul 23 '13 at 15:10










  • Very nice proof.
    – leo
    Dec 30 '13 at 1:51










  • If $f([0,1])=[-1,1]$, then you are suggesting to consider $g(x)=f(x)$ in order to find a function $[0,1] to [0,1]$, so it doesn't seem to work.
    – Seirios
    Aug 12 '15 at 5:49










  • Yes, you are right. Define $g(x)=leftlvertdfracf(x)leftlceil max(leftlvert a rightrvert,leftlvert brightrvert)rightrceilrightrvert$. I think that it will work.
    – user 170039
    Aug 13 '15 at 13:48










  • I think so. But now, your solution does not seem to be really simpler than the original.
    – Seirios
    Aug 14 '15 at 6:46







1




1




This uses compactness as well as connectedness of $[0,1]$ to conclude that $f([0,1])$ is a closed, bounded interval.
– Jonas Meyer
Jul 23 '13 at 15:10




This uses compactness as well as connectedness of $[0,1]$ to conclude that $f([0,1])$ is a closed, bounded interval.
– Jonas Meyer
Jul 23 '13 at 15:10












Very nice proof.
– leo
Dec 30 '13 at 1:51




Very nice proof.
– leo
Dec 30 '13 at 1:51












If $f([0,1])=[-1,1]$, then you are suggesting to consider $g(x)=f(x)$ in order to find a function $[0,1] to [0,1]$, so it doesn't seem to work.
– Seirios
Aug 12 '15 at 5:49




If $f([0,1])=[-1,1]$, then you are suggesting to consider $g(x)=f(x)$ in order to find a function $[0,1] to [0,1]$, so it doesn't seem to work.
– Seirios
Aug 12 '15 at 5:49












Yes, you are right. Define $g(x)=leftlvertdfracf(x)leftlceil max(leftlvert a rightrvert,leftlvert brightrvert)rightrceilrightrvert$. I think that it will work.
– user 170039
Aug 13 '15 at 13:48




Yes, you are right. Define $g(x)=leftlvertdfracf(x)leftlceil max(leftlvert a rightrvert,leftlvert brightrvert)rightrceilrightrvert$. I think that it will work.
– user 170039
Aug 13 '15 at 13:48












I think so. But now, your solution does not seem to be really simpler than the original.
– Seirios
Aug 14 '15 at 6:46




I think so. But now, your solution does not seem to be really simpler than the original.
– Seirios
Aug 14 '15 at 6:46












 

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