If a subspace $V_1$ is close to a subspace $V_2$ of the same dimension, is $V_2$ close to $V_1$?

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Given two vector subspaces $V_1,V_2$ of an infinite-dimensional normed space $X$, we say that $V_1$ is $epsilon$-close to $V_2$,



if for every $v_1 in V_1$, $|v_1|=1$, there exist $v_2 in V_2$ such that $|v_1-v_2|<epsilon$.



Now, suppose that $(V_n)_n ge 0$ is a sequence of $k$-dimensional subspaces ($k < infty$) of $X$, such that $V_n$ is $epsilon_n$-close to $V_0$, where $epsilon_n to 0$.




Is it true that $V_0$ becomes arbitrarily close to $V_n$ when $n to infty$?




In other words, I am asking whether the closeness relation is "asymptotically-symmetric".



The "equal dimensions" assumption is necessary: Otherwise $V_n$ could be strict subspaces of $V_0$.



Edit:



gerw proved that the answer is positive whenever $X$ is a Hilbert space.



The question remains whether or not the answer stays positive if the norm is not induced by an inner product.







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  • You seem to be saying that $dim V_0 = k$, but you never say it directly.
    – 4-ier
    Aug 23 at 9:48










  • Maybe related is some Open Mapping inequality: a $C_k > 0$ such that if $V$ is $epsilon$-near $W$, then $W$ is $C_kepsilon$-near $V$.
    – 4-ier
    Aug 23 at 9:51










  • Guessing that this is a real or complex vector space?
    – 4-ier
    Aug 23 at 10:03










  • Ah, I missed that. I don't think it is too common to include "the limit" as a member of the sequence.
    – 4-ier
    Aug 23 at 10:59














up vote
3
down vote

favorite
2












Given two vector subspaces $V_1,V_2$ of an infinite-dimensional normed space $X$, we say that $V_1$ is $epsilon$-close to $V_2$,



if for every $v_1 in V_1$, $|v_1|=1$, there exist $v_2 in V_2$ such that $|v_1-v_2|<epsilon$.



Now, suppose that $(V_n)_n ge 0$ is a sequence of $k$-dimensional subspaces ($k < infty$) of $X$, such that $V_n$ is $epsilon_n$-close to $V_0$, where $epsilon_n to 0$.




Is it true that $V_0$ becomes arbitrarily close to $V_n$ when $n to infty$?




In other words, I am asking whether the closeness relation is "asymptotically-symmetric".



The "equal dimensions" assumption is necessary: Otherwise $V_n$ could be strict subspaces of $V_0$.



Edit:



gerw proved that the answer is positive whenever $X$ is a Hilbert space.



The question remains whether or not the answer stays positive if the norm is not induced by an inner product.







share|cite|improve this question






















  • You seem to be saying that $dim V_0 = k$, but you never say it directly.
    – 4-ier
    Aug 23 at 9:48










  • Maybe related is some Open Mapping inequality: a $C_k > 0$ such that if $V$ is $epsilon$-near $W$, then $W$ is $C_kepsilon$-near $V$.
    – 4-ier
    Aug 23 at 9:51










  • Guessing that this is a real or complex vector space?
    – 4-ier
    Aug 23 at 10:03










  • Ah, I missed that. I don't think it is too common to include "the limit" as a member of the sequence.
    – 4-ier
    Aug 23 at 10:59












up vote
3
down vote

favorite
2









up vote
3
down vote

favorite
2






2





Given two vector subspaces $V_1,V_2$ of an infinite-dimensional normed space $X$, we say that $V_1$ is $epsilon$-close to $V_2$,



if for every $v_1 in V_1$, $|v_1|=1$, there exist $v_2 in V_2$ such that $|v_1-v_2|<epsilon$.



Now, suppose that $(V_n)_n ge 0$ is a sequence of $k$-dimensional subspaces ($k < infty$) of $X$, such that $V_n$ is $epsilon_n$-close to $V_0$, where $epsilon_n to 0$.




Is it true that $V_0$ becomes arbitrarily close to $V_n$ when $n to infty$?




In other words, I am asking whether the closeness relation is "asymptotically-symmetric".



The "equal dimensions" assumption is necessary: Otherwise $V_n$ could be strict subspaces of $V_0$.



Edit:



gerw proved that the answer is positive whenever $X$ is a Hilbert space.



The question remains whether or not the answer stays positive if the norm is not induced by an inner product.







share|cite|improve this question














Given two vector subspaces $V_1,V_2$ of an infinite-dimensional normed space $X$, we say that $V_1$ is $epsilon$-close to $V_2$,



if for every $v_1 in V_1$, $|v_1|=1$, there exist $v_2 in V_2$ such that $|v_1-v_2|<epsilon$.



Now, suppose that $(V_n)_n ge 0$ is a sequence of $k$-dimensional subspaces ($k < infty$) of $X$, such that $V_n$ is $epsilon_n$-close to $V_0$, where $epsilon_n to 0$.




Is it true that $V_0$ becomes arbitrarily close to $V_n$ when $n to infty$?




In other words, I am asking whether the closeness relation is "asymptotically-symmetric".



The "equal dimensions" assumption is necessary: Otherwise $V_n$ could be strict subspaces of $V_0$.



Edit:



gerw proved that the answer is positive whenever $X$ is a Hilbert space.



The question remains whether or not the answer stays positive if the norm is not induced by an inner product.









share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Aug 24 at 17:46

























asked Aug 23 at 9:40









Asaf Shachar

4,7163835




4,7163835











  • You seem to be saying that $dim V_0 = k$, but you never say it directly.
    – 4-ier
    Aug 23 at 9:48










  • Maybe related is some Open Mapping inequality: a $C_k > 0$ such that if $V$ is $epsilon$-near $W$, then $W$ is $C_kepsilon$-near $V$.
    – 4-ier
    Aug 23 at 9:51










  • Guessing that this is a real or complex vector space?
    – 4-ier
    Aug 23 at 10:03










  • Ah, I missed that. I don't think it is too common to include "the limit" as a member of the sequence.
    – 4-ier
    Aug 23 at 10:59
















  • You seem to be saying that $dim V_0 = k$, but you never say it directly.
    – 4-ier
    Aug 23 at 9:48










  • Maybe related is some Open Mapping inequality: a $C_k > 0$ such that if $V$ is $epsilon$-near $W$, then $W$ is $C_kepsilon$-near $V$.
    – 4-ier
    Aug 23 at 9:51










  • Guessing that this is a real or complex vector space?
    – 4-ier
    Aug 23 at 10:03










  • Ah, I missed that. I don't think it is too common to include "the limit" as a member of the sequence.
    – 4-ier
    Aug 23 at 10:59















You seem to be saying that $dim V_0 = k$, but you never say it directly.
– 4-ier
Aug 23 at 9:48




You seem to be saying that $dim V_0 = k$, but you never say it directly.
– 4-ier
Aug 23 at 9:48












Maybe related is some Open Mapping inequality: a $C_k > 0$ such that if $V$ is $epsilon$-near $W$, then $W$ is $C_kepsilon$-near $V$.
– 4-ier
Aug 23 at 9:51




Maybe related is some Open Mapping inequality: a $C_k > 0$ such that if $V$ is $epsilon$-near $W$, then $W$ is $C_kepsilon$-near $V$.
– 4-ier
Aug 23 at 9:51












Guessing that this is a real or complex vector space?
– 4-ier
Aug 23 at 10:03




Guessing that this is a real or complex vector space?
– 4-ier
Aug 23 at 10:03












Ah, I missed that. I don't think it is too common to include "the limit" as a member of the sequence.
– 4-ier
Aug 23 at 10:59




Ah, I missed that. I don't think it is too common to include "the limit" as a member of the sequence.
– 4-ier
Aug 23 at 10:59










1 Answer
1






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up vote
1
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accepted










After giving a flawed counterexample, I give a proof that works (at least) in Hilbert spaces.



Let us assume that $V_n$ is $varepsilon$-close to $V$ with $varepsilon < 1$. Let us denote by $S$ the unit ball in our Hilbert space $X$. Moreover, let $P$ be the orthogonal projection onto $V$.



By $varepsilon$-closedness, we have $| v - P v| le varepsilon$, hence, $| P v | ge 1-varepsilon > 0$ for all $v in V_n cap S$, i.e., the map $Q : V_n cap S to V cap S$ defined via $Qv := Pv/|Pv|$ is continuous and odd. Since $V_n cap S$ and $V cap S$ are essentially $n-1$-spheres, $Q$ should be surjective, this should follow, e.g., from Borsuk-Ulam theorem. Now, its inverse $Q^-1$ gives you a nice map from $V cap S$ to $V_n$. This shows that $V$ is $delta$-close to $V_0$ for some $delta$. Moreover, we get $delta to 0$ as $varepsilon to 0$.



Here is some explanation for the should. I was not able to come up with a reference, so I might miss something obvious:
Let $f : S^n to S^n$ be a continuous, odd map, i.e., $f(-x) = -f(x)$. Here, $S^n$ is the $n$-sphere. We claim that $f$ is surjective. Otherwise, there is $x in S^n$ which is not in the image of $S^n$. Since $f$ is odd, $-x$ does not belong to the image, too. Now, let $g : S^n to mathbb R^n$ be the orthogonal projection onto the orthogonal complement of $x$ within $mathbb R^n+1$. Then, $gcirc f : S^n to mathbb R^n$ is a continuous, odd map and $0$ does not belong to the image of $g circ f$. This is a contradiction to Borsuk-Ulam.






share|cite|improve this answer




















  • Thanks, that looks nice. I have one question: How do you know that $Q$ is injective?
    – Asaf Shachar
    Aug 24 at 15:43






  • 1




    Actually, you do not need the surjectivity of $Q$, it is sufficient to have a right inverse. However, surjectivity of $Q$ implies surjectivity of $P$. But $P$ is a mapping between spaces of the same dimension, hence, injective. This gives the injectivity of $Q$.
    – gerw
    Aug 24 at 17:34










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1 Answer
1






active

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1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes








up vote
1
down vote



accepted










After giving a flawed counterexample, I give a proof that works (at least) in Hilbert spaces.



Let us assume that $V_n$ is $varepsilon$-close to $V$ with $varepsilon < 1$. Let us denote by $S$ the unit ball in our Hilbert space $X$. Moreover, let $P$ be the orthogonal projection onto $V$.



By $varepsilon$-closedness, we have $| v - P v| le varepsilon$, hence, $| P v | ge 1-varepsilon > 0$ for all $v in V_n cap S$, i.e., the map $Q : V_n cap S to V cap S$ defined via $Qv := Pv/|Pv|$ is continuous and odd. Since $V_n cap S$ and $V cap S$ are essentially $n-1$-spheres, $Q$ should be surjective, this should follow, e.g., from Borsuk-Ulam theorem. Now, its inverse $Q^-1$ gives you a nice map from $V cap S$ to $V_n$. This shows that $V$ is $delta$-close to $V_0$ for some $delta$. Moreover, we get $delta to 0$ as $varepsilon to 0$.



Here is some explanation for the should. I was not able to come up with a reference, so I might miss something obvious:
Let $f : S^n to S^n$ be a continuous, odd map, i.e., $f(-x) = -f(x)$. Here, $S^n$ is the $n$-sphere. We claim that $f$ is surjective. Otherwise, there is $x in S^n$ which is not in the image of $S^n$. Since $f$ is odd, $-x$ does not belong to the image, too. Now, let $g : S^n to mathbb R^n$ be the orthogonal projection onto the orthogonal complement of $x$ within $mathbb R^n+1$. Then, $gcirc f : S^n to mathbb R^n$ is a continuous, odd map and $0$ does not belong to the image of $g circ f$. This is a contradiction to Borsuk-Ulam.






share|cite|improve this answer




















  • Thanks, that looks nice. I have one question: How do you know that $Q$ is injective?
    – Asaf Shachar
    Aug 24 at 15:43






  • 1




    Actually, you do not need the surjectivity of $Q$, it is sufficient to have a right inverse. However, surjectivity of $Q$ implies surjectivity of $P$. But $P$ is a mapping between spaces of the same dimension, hence, injective. This gives the injectivity of $Q$.
    – gerw
    Aug 24 at 17:34














up vote
1
down vote



accepted










After giving a flawed counterexample, I give a proof that works (at least) in Hilbert spaces.



Let us assume that $V_n$ is $varepsilon$-close to $V$ with $varepsilon < 1$. Let us denote by $S$ the unit ball in our Hilbert space $X$. Moreover, let $P$ be the orthogonal projection onto $V$.



By $varepsilon$-closedness, we have $| v - P v| le varepsilon$, hence, $| P v | ge 1-varepsilon > 0$ for all $v in V_n cap S$, i.e., the map $Q : V_n cap S to V cap S$ defined via $Qv := Pv/|Pv|$ is continuous and odd. Since $V_n cap S$ and $V cap S$ are essentially $n-1$-spheres, $Q$ should be surjective, this should follow, e.g., from Borsuk-Ulam theorem. Now, its inverse $Q^-1$ gives you a nice map from $V cap S$ to $V_n$. This shows that $V$ is $delta$-close to $V_0$ for some $delta$. Moreover, we get $delta to 0$ as $varepsilon to 0$.



Here is some explanation for the should. I was not able to come up with a reference, so I might miss something obvious:
Let $f : S^n to S^n$ be a continuous, odd map, i.e., $f(-x) = -f(x)$. Here, $S^n$ is the $n$-sphere. We claim that $f$ is surjective. Otherwise, there is $x in S^n$ which is not in the image of $S^n$. Since $f$ is odd, $-x$ does not belong to the image, too. Now, let $g : S^n to mathbb R^n$ be the orthogonal projection onto the orthogonal complement of $x$ within $mathbb R^n+1$. Then, $gcirc f : S^n to mathbb R^n$ is a continuous, odd map and $0$ does not belong to the image of $g circ f$. This is a contradiction to Borsuk-Ulam.






share|cite|improve this answer




















  • Thanks, that looks nice. I have one question: How do you know that $Q$ is injective?
    – Asaf Shachar
    Aug 24 at 15:43






  • 1




    Actually, you do not need the surjectivity of $Q$, it is sufficient to have a right inverse. However, surjectivity of $Q$ implies surjectivity of $P$. But $P$ is a mapping between spaces of the same dimension, hence, injective. This gives the injectivity of $Q$.
    – gerw
    Aug 24 at 17:34












up vote
1
down vote



accepted







up vote
1
down vote



accepted






After giving a flawed counterexample, I give a proof that works (at least) in Hilbert spaces.



Let us assume that $V_n$ is $varepsilon$-close to $V$ with $varepsilon < 1$. Let us denote by $S$ the unit ball in our Hilbert space $X$. Moreover, let $P$ be the orthogonal projection onto $V$.



By $varepsilon$-closedness, we have $| v - P v| le varepsilon$, hence, $| P v | ge 1-varepsilon > 0$ for all $v in V_n cap S$, i.e., the map $Q : V_n cap S to V cap S$ defined via $Qv := Pv/|Pv|$ is continuous and odd. Since $V_n cap S$ and $V cap S$ are essentially $n-1$-spheres, $Q$ should be surjective, this should follow, e.g., from Borsuk-Ulam theorem. Now, its inverse $Q^-1$ gives you a nice map from $V cap S$ to $V_n$. This shows that $V$ is $delta$-close to $V_0$ for some $delta$. Moreover, we get $delta to 0$ as $varepsilon to 0$.



Here is some explanation for the should. I was not able to come up with a reference, so I might miss something obvious:
Let $f : S^n to S^n$ be a continuous, odd map, i.e., $f(-x) = -f(x)$. Here, $S^n$ is the $n$-sphere. We claim that $f$ is surjective. Otherwise, there is $x in S^n$ which is not in the image of $S^n$. Since $f$ is odd, $-x$ does not belong to the image, too. Now, let $g : S^n to mathbb R^n$ be the orthogonal projection onto the orthogonal complement of $x$ within $mathbb R^n+1$. Then, $gcirc f : S^n to mathbb R^n$ is a continuous, odd map and $0$ does not belong to the image of $g circ f$. This is a contradiction to Borsuk-Ulam.






share|cite|improve this answer












After giving a flawed counterexample, I give a proof that works (at least) in Hilbert spaces.



Let us assume that $V_n$ is $varepsilon$-close to $V$ with $varepsilon < 1$. Let us denote by $S$ the unit ball in our Hilbert space $X$. Moreover, let $P$ be the orthogonal projection onto $V$.



By $varepsilon$-closedness, we have $| v - P v| le varepsilon$, hence, $| P v | ge 1-varepsilon > 0$ for all $v in V_n cap S$, i.e., the map $Q : V_n cap S to V cap S$ defined via $Qv := Pv/|Pv|$ is continuous and odd. Since $V_n cap S$ and $V cap S$ are essentially $n-1$-spheres, $Q$ should be surjective, this should follow, e.g., from Borsuk-Ulam theorem. Now, its inverse $Q^-1$ gives you a nice map from $V cap S$ to $V_n$. This shows that $V$ is $delta$-close to $V_0$ for some $delta$. Moreover, we get $delta to 0$ as $varepsilon to 0$.



Here is some explanation for the should. I was not able to come up with a reference, so I might miss something obvious:
Let $f : S^n to S^n$ be a continuous, odd map, i.e., $f(-x) = -f(x)$. Here, $S^n$ is the $n$-sphere. We claim that $f$ is surjective. Otherwise, there is $x in S^n$ which is not in the image of $S^n$. Since $f$ is odd, $-x$ does not belong to the image, too. Now, let $g : S^n to mathbb R^n$ be the orthogonal projection onto the orthogonal complement of $x$ within $mathbb R^n+1$. Then, $gcirc f : S^n to mathbb R^n$ is a continuous, odd map and $0$ does not belong to the image of $g circ f$. This is a contradiction to Borsuk-Ulam.







share|cite|improve this answer












share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer










answered Aug 24 at 13:59









gerw

18.4k11132




18.4k11132











  • Thanks, that looks nice. I have one question: How do you know that $Q$ is injective?
    – Asaf Shachar
    Aug 24 at 15:43






  • 1




    Actually, you do not need the surjectivity of $Q$, it is sufficient to have a right inverse. However, surjectivity of $Q$ implies surjectivity of $P$. But $P$ is a mapping between spaces of the same dimension, hence, injective. This gives the injectivity of $Q$.
    – gerw
    Aug 24 at 17:34
















  • Thanks, that looks nice. I have one question: How do you know that $Q$ is injective?
    – Asaf Shachar
    Aug 24 at 15:43






  • 1




    Actually, you do not need the surjectivity of $Q$, it is sufficient to have a right inverse. However, surjectivity of $Q$ implies surjectivity of $P$. But $P$ is a mapping between spaces of the same dimension, hence, injective. This gives the injectivity of $Q$.
    – gerw
    Aug 24 at 17:34















Thanks, that looks nice. I have one question: How do you know that $Q$ is injective?
– Asaf Shachar
Aug 24 at 15:43




Thanks, that looks nice. I have one question: How do you know that $Q$ is injective?
– Asaf Shachar
Aug 24 at 15:43




1




1




Actually, you do not need the surjectivity of $Q$, it is sufficient to have a right inverse. However, surjectivity of $Q$ implies surjectivity of $P$. But $P$ is a mapping between spaces of the same dimension, hence, injective. This gives the injectivity of $Q$.
– gerw
Aug 24 at 17:34




Actually, you do not need the surjectivity of $Q$, it is sufficient to have a right inverse. However, surjectivity of $Q$ implies surjectivity of $P$. But $P$ is a mapping between spaces of the same dimension, hence, injective. This gives the injectivity of $Q$.
– gerw
Aug 24 at 17:34

















 

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